Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

mrdetailer

Again, without trying to start an oil forum for a specific brand, quite honestly a number of factors go into determining appropriate oil levels.

1. Dust, Salt, Salt Air, High Humidity, long periods of heat, extended weather below freezing.

2. Driving intervals. I.E. Granny's style of driving of only short trips is murder on oil. Road miles vs City miles.

3. Engine Design.

4. Type of oil in the engine.

The best way to figure out the proper interval for your vehicle is to go a certain interval and send it in for oil analysis. Then go a longer interval and send it into the same lab so they can do a trend analysis.

The large issue in my opinion is how the Toyota engine design shears with the more modern oils in extended short trip driving. If I personally had a Toyota I would err on the conservative side and follow the dealer recommended interval to start out with.

I would probably also use Auto-RX annually just to clean out any residual slugging.

The only thing Toyota did to "remedy" the situation was to make valve cover drain holes larger. Not enough to convince me that their issue will go away.

Do I consider this a problem? Not if I'm purchasing a new vehicle. It's simply a weakness that you have to watch out for, like Ford and Chrysler transmissions that have to be babied. The oil changes have to be babied on a many Toyotas.

fleetwoodsimca

It is hard to find a situation that 3K oil and filter changes doesn't cover. Agree? Disagree?

bottgers

How about extended drain intervals?

mrdetailer

It's hydrocracked, and designed to work within standard recommended drain intervals. Valvoline only has 15% PAO, in a hydrocracked base.

malachy72

what would you condsider, standard vs. extended drain? It helps if we define our terms. I don't know too many people who follow mfgr's recommended, most change out between 3-5k.

fleetwoodsimca

Weird as it sounds, I just can't get comfortable with extended drains, and never could. I spent essentially all of the 1980's using synthetics. Five or six thou miles was all I could bear! I went ten one time on Redline in the early 1990s, and to this day I "regret" it! (:oÞ
P.S.: No bad results, ever. Just silly anxiety!

malachy72

the parking fines have been doubled to $110. If there were a service station in the neighborhood where I park for business that would give a $25 oil change (and I could leave the car), I would get it done once a week just to save the prospect of getting that damn ticket. But that's just a dream. Ah.

fleetwoodsimca

And if that "station" you found for the weekly oil change was my garage at my house here, in the Rocky Mountains, you'd run me out of my oil stash in the first year! (Okay, so I exaggerate!)

mrdetailer

For the Maxlife it should go no longer than 7,500 or the manufacturer's recommendation. That's what Valvoline Tech Support told me. I pestered them a lot before I finally decided to put it in my vehicle. I personally go no longer than 5,000 on conventional or syn blend, even if a long trip is involved. These high mileage oils are definitely superior to conventional so I am comfortable with a changeout at 4--5 thousand miles instead of what used to be changes religiously at 3K.

I have one vehicle that works well on 75% syn 25% high mileage and that goes 6K.

You're not talking to an extended drain person here.

malachy72

that changing your oil is like taking a shower, too soon is much better than too late. You might have BO (bad oil) and not know it.

noobie1

It's odd how we attach 'feeling' to these things. I just washed my truck and feel so-o good. I get the same feeling when I change the oil, or the opposite if I let it go too long. (I bet I'm not alone). How "too long" is determined is anybody's guess, but it usually turns out to be somewhere between 3-4K. I'm about to hook up a by-pass filter set-up which is supposed to extend to 12-15K by conservative estimates. Am I going to be able to do that? :-) gulp.

-David

armtdm

No, I have always said, if you cahnge the oil every 3000 miles you can use any SJ-SL rated oil and no filtger and still get 100,000 + miles. 3000 Intervals is never bad under any driving condition.

But, I maintain 5 cars and it is too much of a hassle. So, I go anywhere from 5000-12,000 between changes depending on the car and type of driving. Two go a year (filter at 6 months (although 1 went a year on oil and filter) and analysis is fine. I do get that uncomfortable feeling at times but then I put a few drops of oil from the car in question on an aluminum foil type backing a let it dry. Amber color, no noticeable dirt or particles and I leave it in. But, oil analysis has also supported the drain intervals.

malachy72

but Mobil Syn-blend oil, SL rated, is on sale (close-out) at BJ's warehouse. A six pack box is $8.90.

Maybe, that as far as Exxon-Mobil is concerned, this type of oil doesn't fit their in marketing plan. Then again, maybe they just want the old packaging off the shelves.

fleetwoodsimca

Bypass system? Is it the aftermarket device that gives you two filters in the system? I don't think you are talking about a remote relocation kit.

noobie1

It's actually both, dual filters located remotely on one head. One filter is a full flow, the other a by-pass with a proportioning valve between. The head is made by Amsoil, and though a nice kit is available, for various reasons I chose to go with their head only and fashion the rest myself. Because of very limited space on the truck (8.1L Silverado) caused by interference with the 4WD the filter is only 3 5/8 X 3 1/4, so you can understand my concern about proper filtration. Amsoil claims filtration to one micron with one of their by-pass filters. We'll see about that. I'm positioning the head so that just about any length full-flow I desire will fit. A Mobil 1 301 will be the first trial.

Enjoy your comments. Thanks for your interest.

-David

adc100

I also considered the system you are referring to. I have come to see thru a couple of analysis of my own and armtdm's , and others that the problem is not really only the cleanliness of oil but its chemical and physical properties of that oil. In other words, after 8K miles you may have really clean 20 wt oil with depleted additives. So really cleanliness is only one measure of the big picture. On the other hand, the oil up to the 8K will be cleaner than other oil without that extra filter. That has to be a god thing. I also think that in general, Mobil 1 is probably not very satisfactory beyond 10K. Thats just an opinion based on bits and pieces of evidence here and there.

malachy72

is this a bypass filter that uses toilet paper as its filtering element?

fleetwoodsimca

I think adc100 is on the money about not pushing Mobil 1 too far on miles. If you really want to extend miles, you might consider Redline oil. It is a polyol base, with fantastic barrier protection. There may be others, but I don't know. I think adc100 uses some Redline at present. If so, I'll bet he'll comment.

adc100

I thought of trying it but (and this is just me)I am still afraod pf the effect of the Ester on seals-long term. I know seals are not a catastrophe, but I am to old to do seals in the driveway/garage anymore. Although the Ester is more durable than the PAO and I suppose a better lubricant, , my understanding is that the additive package is not really superior. I do know that it does have some good levels of zinc though. I know brorjace uses it and I seem to recall that the oxidation and TBN's were not real good.

I am pushing the Mobil now in my SentraI';m 9K+ with one quart of makeup (15W-50 SuperSyn) when I changed the filter. It really didn't use any oil, I just Siphoned a quart out when the old filter went away. I'll sample at 10K when I change to who knows what-either Delvac 1 or Shaeffers Moly Pure Synthetic. I know-too much time on my hands.

fleetwoodsimca

I agree on the laying on concrete. I do not do nearly the mechanical work that I did years ago. I now can claim that the electronic nature of the newer cars precludes me doing as much-- but there's more to it than that! (:o]
About Redline and engine seals: My only long term experience was with a 1986 Harley-Davidson FXSTC I bought new and switched to Redline after the first 2000 break-in miles. I used Redline in it for eight years. It never leaked a drop! That's not an automotive equivalent, but close.

adc100

And I know where you are coming from.... I now can claim that the electronic nature of the newer cars precludes me doing as much-- but there's more to it than that

fleetwoodsimca

Reality therapy. (:oÞ
Now, tomorrow, I'll help a buddy (keep him company) changing the thermostat in his 205K Chevy Chevette.

caesarslegion

I know exactly what you are talking about but Im not sure if this is the same by pass system everyone is talking about. I remember seeing a show about it years back and the guy took out the old roll and it was really black, he put a new roll of toilet paper in and added a quart of oil with it. He claimed never to change the oil, just filter change and the quart of oil to soak the new filter and that was it. I have not seen or heard about it since then.

bluedevils

98 Isuzu Trooper, 67k miles. 3.5L Trooper engines are known to consume oil, if that matters.

First 15k miles, used conventional SJ oil. 15k-40k miles, used synthetic blend SJ oil (Castrol Syntec Blend or Valvoline Durablend). 40k-50k miles, used Mobil 1 Tri-Synth and Mobil conventional mix. 50k miles to present, used Mobil 1 Tri-Synth SJ.

I'd like to switch to Chevron Supreme or Citgo Supergard, both well-regarded SL oils. Can I safely switch at the next oil change, or should I ease gradually from one to the other? If so, how?

malachy72

from everything I've heard, an oil will act like an oil. A syn 10-30 will act like a dino 10-30
(no flaming from syn users please, not bashing synthetics here). I just can't imagine that easing into a different type will make any difference. But fleetwood should know about any pitfalls, he's actually done it.

fleetwoodsimca

Yes, I have "flip-flopped" 100% between types, grades, and brands of oils-- synthetic and petroleum based. I have never had a detectable problem doing it. I agree with malachy72 about "easing" across from one to another. I have successfully used the SLAM DUNK method. (:oÞ

malachy72

I now remember that most of the posts I've read have indicated that it was an 'old' toilet paper by-pass system and that it mainly removed moisture from the oil.

1. This sounds wild and would love to see one up close. I'll have to ask some friends if they know of anyone with it.

2. I would think a good highway run of 10 miles or more each day would evaporate the moisture in the oil due to high operating temps.

3. As ADC says, the additive package depleting is more of an issue with 'spending' the oil than the actual cleanliness of the base oil, IMHO.

fleetwoodsimca

You can utilize the miles used and the color of the oil to some extent, to help determine if you ought to change it. It is all so totally logical, that it gets back to everyone picking that schedule (or lack there of) that suits their perceived needs for "clean" oil and filters.

bluedevils

changed the oil and filter in our 98 Isuzu Trooper last night. No more Mobil 1 SJ 5W30. I went with SL-rated Citgo SuperGard 5W30 and a PureOne filter. The vehicle previously consumed a quart of oil every 2000-2500 miles, so hopefully that won't change for the worse. I don't expect it to.

ealme

My daughter bought an old house and found 10 quarts of oil in the basement. They are unopened plastic quarts of SAE 10W-30 Motor Oil distributed by a company called ADV, Inc. of Roanoke, VA. The quart says that it is suitable for use in all gasoline powered engines. My question is, is there a shelf life on motor oil where it goes bad after a while, or is this stuff still good to be used? I can't find any dates on the bottle.

fleetwoodsimca

Shelf life is not likely a problem, but the API rating of the oil might be a stumbling block.

tboner1965

some lawnmower oil
TB

jc1973

adv oil is made by teaxco havoline

noobie1

Sorry to all about the delayed response time.

You confirm what I've suspected about lubricating quality as opposed to cleanliness. I intend to keep Blackstone busy, especially during the first duration of use. I'm sure they can help me determine the safe extent of oil 'life'. Thanks for your comments.

malachy72 & caesarslegion

No, it's not the toilet paper filter. I remember seeing those things back in the 60's, usually in a booth at a county fair, between a booth on one side with a guy sawing an old boot in half with a serrated steak knife and on the other side a guy selling a carburetor attachment guaranteed to double your gas mileage. :-) I would never, ever, ever (read definetly not) put one of those things on my truck. It's almost a year old and I still baby it like it was new. You can check out the one I'm using at:

amsoil.com/products/bf.html (someone may kindly describe how to make a URL a hot link)

-David

celianeron

Hi,

If anyone is interested in Castrol Syntec 5W50 and how it holds up,well,check it out.I'd like to hear about it.Thanks

Ron

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=3&submit=Go

noobie1

http://www.amsoil/products/bf.html

tboner1965

I know it's been discussed before, the 5W20 recommendations by Ford and Honda for thier oils.

Did they also lengthen the drain intervals?

Here is why I ask. If I recall, an oils viscosity increases with age and use.

So, from a viscosity point of view only, (I realize additives wear out, dirt is suspended, and so forth) you could run a 5W20 oil longer before it turned into peanut butter.

Not saying I'm planning to do this, but I was just curious if the drain intervals were lengthened.

TB
Who thinks 5W40 Delvac 1 or Rotella Syn is a good choice this winter for the 87 LeSabre.

malachy72

from what I've read it's the lower end viscosity which thickens (the colder weight). The 20 would actually shear down over time and use. Please let me have some clarifications if I'm wrong or I misunderstand.

fleetwoodsimca

The theory, as I understand it, is that the lighter (short chain hydrocarbon) molecules volatize away over time, at a faster rate than the longer chain (higher viscosity) molecules. The equilibrium favors the higher weight rating of the multi-viscosity stated on the product container. So! Your 5W-20 oil morphs over to say, 8W-19 as some burns off, and some gets "ground up" to shorter chains. It appears to be thicker when you drain it (?).

mrdetailer

The oil is subjected to factors that both thicken the oil due to hydrocarbon boil off, and shearing which can thin the oil.

By the way, Ford's 5W-20 is aware of this thickening issue, and requries for their 5W-20 specification that it have no more than 50% thickening for 120 hours under the oil thickening test. SL standard is 80 hours.

But I agree that a 50% thickening would leave a 30 weight oil.

My personal view would be to use a synthetic 5W-20 for the duration of the guarantee.

mrdetailer

Here's a stupid question. The Ford salesman told me that the tolerances are a lot closer in the new engines. BUT European cars have a durability test that requries at least a 40 weight oil in order to pass. Do Ford and Honda manufacture a different engine for Europe?

adc100

I think that either of these oils is a good choice. As a matter of fact I purchased some Rotella 5W-40 Syn for my nest oil change in my 01 Nissan Sentra. I'm with the Europeans on this one. Currently I am using 3 quarts of 10W-30 and one quart of 15W-40 Syn. I have noticed no drop in milage. As a matter of fact on my last trip I got my best milage ever. I'm not about to say though that the thicker oil gave better milage. Origionally the EPA was requiring Ford to insure the engine would last, I believe 125K on the 20 wt oil. That requirement somehow got dropped. What a surprise!!!

fleetwoodsimca

I often mix weights in your fashion. I sincerely believe that it does no harm, and I hope that it helps to "heavy up" the oil just a bit, or to thin it down some if I add 5W-30, etc.
A point favoring this idea is the addition of STP to any and all weights of oil. The effect is to thicken the oil, and in recent years to add ZDDP as well.(:oß

jake73

i have many cases of 10/30 &20/50oil.any problem mixing them,{same brand } say, 1 or 2 qt. to 3 or 4 qt. ? 5 = 10/30 to 1 =20/50 ? or 2=20/50 to 4 =10/30? thank's...

tboner1965

I don't buy the closer tolerance argument simply because Ford's memo about the 5W20 oil goes back to early 90's pushrod V8 engines.

I posted a copy somewhere on the forums at www.mpvclub.com if you would like to see what engines Ford approves/recommends use of 5W20 oil.

TB

fleetwoodsimca

I wouldn't be afraid to do that, at all.

mrdetailer

that it may not come out to the mix you desire according to both the Valvoline and QState tech suppport that I spoke with. Has it stopped me from mixing different weights of the same brand? Heck no.

But I have found better mileage if I use a mix of 5W-40, and 10W-40 rather than a 5W-50 and 5W-30. Just my experience on one vehicle.

fleetwoodsimca

Now, that is a puzzler. Do you have a theory for an explanation of why it has worked out that way?

div2

That Rotella Synthetic is a good buy; I picked up a few jugs at Wal-Mart last week. I'm going to run it in my wife's 528i. The Rotella should work with the @9000 mile oil change intervals caculated by the Service Indicator. That makes four different oils for four different vehicles... Well, I suppose variety is the spice of life

zr2rando

I mix the 10w/30 and the 20w/50 too, mainly because the 10w/40 uses alot of the visc Index Improver. A 50/50 mix may not be EXACTLY a 15w/40 but it is close enough for me..I use Havoline/Chevron oil..non-synthetic.
Rando