Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

csandste

SuperTech is made by Specialty Petroleum in Shreveport. Specialty was bought by Quaker State. Quaker State was bought by Pennzoil. PZ/QS is being combined into Shell. Wolf's Head was also bought by Pennzoil.

1. Pennzoil is the best--as good or better than Chevron--group 2+ oils Chevron is group 2.
2. Wolf's Head is the worst.
3. The specs on Super Tech are roughly equal to Quaker, but not the same formulation.

I haven't dug through the new PZ web page to see if they had SuperTech specs. didn't before.

A guy named Johnny in the Bobistheoilguy forum works for PZ/QS and is very informative on all things Pennzoil.

gye

Pennzoil is group 2 by my memory.

fleetwoodsimca

For what it's worth, I can endorse Havoline SL by ChevronTexaco by reporting I now have 4 cases of it on my garage shelves. I am convinced that "Isosyn" is to be found in the big red star of Texaco as well as Chevron's named oils.

bottgers

csandste

Actually, Pennzoil's and Chevron's SL's are both group II+, and Pennzoil uses Chevron's additive package, so I fail to see how the Pennzoil is better.

Fleetwoodsimca

I agree, I think the oil in the Chevron bottles, and that in the Havoline bottles is one in the same. There's really no advantage in buying either or. They're both priced about the same, and they both seem to be about equal in terms of availability. The winners here are we the consumers!

malachy72

in some areas, as those who lurk over at Bob's board have found out. It will be interesting to see if the upcoming analysis on this oil, which bottgers has promised, will sway opinions in any way.

wain

I think filters are good too but i was in pep boys last week and saw the old vw sump filter screen kit for sale - that was the only filter the old vw bugs had.
How did they survive with no filter? - and many of them went many miles.

armtdm

Easy, they changed the oil on those bugs every 3000 miles max. Shows that if you change the oil every 3000 miles any cheap oil and filter will do the job for 100,000 plus miles

adc100

Called for oil change every 1.5K as I recall??

fleetwoodsimca

Hey, all this certainly supports the 3K theory of engine sanitation! Many who express interest in oil longevity spend a lot of time, energy, and money figuring ways to extend drains beyond various end points, when the simple truth is, just change your oil and filter every three thou and no harm shall befall your vehicle. This is not an over consumption of oil, either, for remember that someone pointed out that the left overs from today's gasoline production provide all the oil we can use at the rate of 3K per vehicle. NO PROBLEMO!

adc100

If you had 2 cars and like to change your oil its cool. Unfortunately, I hate to crawl under the car anymore and really don't trust the Jiffydrones. Also I change oil on my son's two cars and daughters 2 cars. I still also believe that syn is extra margin of safety.

fleetwoodsimca

I agree with you that (the right kind of) synthetic can provide an extra margin of safety. I am concerned that many people really overuse the longevity factor of synthetic oil, and don't change it soon enough. It becomes a game to see how far you can stretch the interval. If you depend on assaying the dirty oil for the answer, you may have waited too long. I must consider that the new hydrocracking technique developed by Chevron may well give the same product, for all practical purposes, at a lower cost. That variety of oil can be overused, too.

malachy72

posted on bob's board. After 8k on an engine with 125k on it oil was about done but held up very well. The specs on this oil aren't close to Chevron, the additive package? Remains to be seen.

caesarslegion

I guess elvis has not left the building. Its really 2k on the oil changes not 1.5k. Any more crazy thoughts on cold fusion?

fleetwoodsimca

...looks like somebody forgot the lock on the cage again...

malachy72

based on the analysis on Mobil drive clean dino posted on bob's board with an 8K mile interval. I have decided that this SL grade as well as the SL grades of Chevron Supreme, Chevron-Texaco Havoline, Super-Tech, Citgo, Exxon, Castrol, Pennsoil, Amoco, Shell. etc., etc. have been granted the distinction of meeting Mal72 SPEC 0108, and will be recommended for use in my cars with a drain interval of no less than 3K miles. I know this means so much to so many.

caesarslegion

Does this mean were having another fleeting moment? Why cant we be friends ohhhh why cant we be friends, come on you know the words to this song even though its not fleet wood mac.

malachy72

I went to their MSDS and it indicated a flashpoint of 233c and 451f (cleveland). Is there any significance to "cleveland"?

fleetwoodsimca

In what type stores do you find Citgo oil for sale in your area? I do not see it for sale in the auto parts chain stores, here.

malachy72

I came across it at BJ's wholesale club, BJ's also carried "ESSO" oil with a disclaimer on the case limiting sale to certain states. Citgo is a Tulsa oil refiner s/b widely distributed. I believe the price for 12 qts was 10 or 12 bucks.

fleetwoodsimca

I found a distributor today. The price was $1.25 per quart in 5 gallon containers for 10W-30 SL Citgo Oil. I can ALWAYS find other major brands on sale for under a buck a quart, so I won't pursue the opportunity-- at least not at the distributor's place!

malachy72

I found this Citgo Oil for $ 1.29/qt. I am anxious to try that Chevron Supreme/ Havoline at next change. I'm just driving in circles to get 3K on the current oil. LOL

fleetwoodsimca

malachy72 You know, it's probably worth it to get SL oil made from NONmiddleEastern crude. The distributor told me that the only foreign oil Citgo uses, comes from Venezuela.

bigorange30

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/data/summary.html

bluedevils

Is available at Meijer stores here in Michigan. Meijer is multi-state, but not national. They're in Mich, KY, OH, etc. Meijer is basically like Target or KMart, plus a grocery store. They're open 24 hours and they have pretty much ANYTHING you need to keep a home and family alive and ticking.

Price in Michigan is $1.13/qt. at the Meijers I've checked.

runpanther

Hello friends,

I humbly would like to socialize with everyone my outlook about oil changes. Any comments are appreciated.

I personally change the oil in all my cars. When I hit 3k miles I begin to think about changing the oil (usually the following weekend). The oil is always changed before 4k miles but in most cases done before 3500. The one time I had jiffy lube do it they put in a extra quart. You would think that since they are oil change experts they would know what they are doin? – yea right!!!

I use whatever oil and oil filters are on sale, but always name brand (I have no problem finding oil on sale for .99c – whether it be Walmart, Kmart, pepboys, Strauss, NAPA etc. Same thing with oil filters – someone, somewhere usually sells them for no more than 2 bucks – and if I’m lucky there may even be a rebate offer). Sometimes I even stock up. The oil is always in the viscosity recommended in the owners manual. Different brands have been used on the same vehicles which include Quaker State, Pennzoil, Havoline, Valvoline, Mobil, Castrol, Chevron etc. I’ve never used and probably never will use synthetics. Why? Just habit I guess.

As with oil I’ve used all different types of filters. I’ve heard all the complaints concerning Fram but I gotta tell ya – I’ve never experienced any problems whatsoever. By changing the oil every 3000 miles I can probably get away with not even using a filter – maybe even a sealed roll of paper towels (just kidding). Different filters used include, Purolator, STP, Motorcraft, and Wix. As far as I’m concerned they are all the same.

So, with that said, 5 quarts of name brand oil @ 99c and a 2 buck oil filter costs me (w/tax) $7.37. Pretty cheap insurance as far as I can tell. . . after all - I've yet to blow an engine .

Have a great day everyone.

bigorange30

What is the most # of miles you have ever put on an engine? Cheaper is not always better. But in this case, the synthetic I use is cheaper than what you are using? Why? What is your gas mileage? How much do you spend in gas over an oil change cycle? I use Mobil1 synthetic 5w30 ($4.49/qt) and a Mobil1 high efficiency filter ($10.99). I get 11% higher gas mileage and go 7500 instead of the 3000 miles that you do. So instead of the $14.74 you have out of pocket for the 7500 miles, I have $72.56 (mileage savings) - 34.56 (oil and filter costs) = $38.00 back in my pocket every 7500 miles. How can you compete with that? If that's not enough, Mobil1 gaurantees the oil to last as long as your car's manual says for normal driving even if your doing sever driving for the life of your car. If there is ever an oil related problem, they fix it. Also, the engine parts don't wear as much and clearances stay tighter meaning that the engine lasts longer.

malachy72

you are going to have to get a little more obsessive about motor oil. Maybe you could switch to Mobil 1, run it for about 5K miles and then sell it on EBAY to a Mobil 1 user who can put another 7K on it.
BTW bigorange, just a joke there, but if you lurk bob's board at all, Bob has just posted that he would never use the new M1 supersyn, due to an inferior additive package when compared to Tri-Syn.

altair4

>>If that's not enough, Mobil1 gaurantees the oil to last as long as your car's manual says for normal driving even if your doing sever driving for the life of your car. If there is ever an oil related problem, they fix it.<<

I sincerely doubt that anyone has successfully gotten any repair from any oil company under these warranties. Think about it...give me a problem (in the hypothetical) that you think should be covered...and I could probably give you a reasonable denial of coverage. It all sounds good on paper, but I don't think it really means a thing in the 'Real World.'

Having said this, yes, I use synthetic oil in a 97 Honda. I don't think it gives any noticeable improvement in mileage over non-synthetic (and I'm obsessive about record keeping), certainly nothing like 11% (that would boost my long distance highway mileage from 34.something to over 37 mpg. I can assure you that has not happened).

But since I DIY my oil changes, I justify the additional cost this way:

By doing it myself, my cost is maybe $25 or $27, using a nationally known, readily available synth and a Honda filter. I have the knowledge that the crankcase is filled properly with the correct grade of oil. I know that the drain plug has been installed with a new crush washer and that it has not been stripped by overtightening or will fall out because it wasn't tightened enough because I use a torque wrench. I know that the old oil is responsibly recycled (thanks, Advance Auto Parts for the recycling program!). I have the satisfaction of having completed the job myself (it's one of those instant gratification things). It gives me the opportunity to regularly exam the bottom side of the engine, drive shafts and CV boots, and exhaust system. And in comparison to the quick change places, I've paid about the same amount for synthetic as they would charge for their bulk dino juice. I follow the 'severe' maintenance schedule as posted in the manual, because that's how the car is driven. Anything that goes wrong because of my work, I know who the responsible party is...me.

But that's just me...YMMV.

PS: If anyone has gone to an oil company with a engine failure looking for payment, I would love to hear the story. Was it paid or not? What was the nature of the failure?

runpanther

Just personal choice to continue using Dino over Syn. No big deal. For some reason or another, I just don't feel comfortable keeping oil in an engine as long as they say syns are able to last.

Are syns more economical? Probably and even most likely. But changing the oil more often using dino also gives me a great excuse with the bride for laying down underneath the car (if you know what I mean - wink wink).

maple49

Please don't take this the wrong way. I have a lot of respect for anyone who researches their oil/filters and changes their own oil. I think we are all a rare breed. Anyway, I don't think you would see that same 11% mileage increase if you compared the Mobil1 to the new SL dino oils. I have used Synth. and dino and have seen no noticeable difference in mileage (I record my mileage every time I fill the tank). Currently, I use quality SL dino (Chevron/Pennzoil) and Purolator filters every 3500 miles and seem to get good results. I agree that Mobil1 is a better product but it is my belief, with a lot of research, that in the vast majority of cases there is no benefit in using synth. Personally, I like to get under the car more frequently to "check things out". Also, being a corporate desk jockey, changing my oil gives me a feeling of accomplishmnet.

caesarslegion

I agree. I usually use quaker state oil and fram filters and I have not had a problem with my cars. I try to stay away from the real cheap oil or oil made by unknown companys. My one car is at 152,000 miles and the engine still hums along. But I can see some ones point that if I owned a porsche or benz I think synthetic would be the way. A few years back I used kendall oil but I felt it was cheap and switched. As for oil changes I always do 3,000 miles because the oil may still be doing its job lubing but oil also acts as a cleaner and washes away slivers of metal and moisture that will build up over time.

bigorange30

time and effort you are wasting. To each his own I guess. Slivers of metal are not there if the parts don't wear. I also prefer to spend my time with my kids than under a car needlessly changing the oil. The $75/year I save, I put into my kids' college education fund too. You know the old saying "Waste not, want not".

caesarslegion

I hate to tell you this but all engines and I mean all engines do wear. Its a fact. You'll find slivers of metal, moisture and others in all used motor oil. The secret is not leaving it in the oil pan too long so you can avoid the damage it could do. If you choose not to change your oil your self thats fine, but trust me when I say its not hard and if you really take that much time doing it and it really takes away from the family time....something is wrong. I wouldn't want any kid having nightmares about poor old dad missing since the last oil change. You might be on to something.

bottgers

I would tend to agree with the approach that if you change your oil and filter every 3K miles, religiously, you could probably use any oil, and any filter without having any problems. However, I think most people are looking for an oil/filter/drain interval combo they can use that's going to give them a good compromise between extended drain intervals, anit-wear protection, and getting that warm fuzzy feeling that they're doing the right thing. For me, I don't care what an analysis says, I refuse to run jet black oil in my engine. My warm fuzzy would be completely gone running black oil. To me, syns aren't worth the extra moola. They cost 3-5 times more than dinos, but they won't go 3-5 times longer with the intervals. I'm not so sure we should even be calling some of these new SL dinos "dinos" at all. Legally speaking, isn't the Chevron SL a syn because it's hydrocracked? Just thought I'd throw some more things in to add to the confusion.

hammen2

Just got back from having my '98 Aurora towed to the dealership. I had it in yesterday for an oil change/tire rotation (oil every 3-4k, tire rotation every other oil change).

When I picked it up last night (as the dealership was closing) and started the car, it bucked/dieseled. I immediately shut it off, and, because the car was parked on a small incline, shifted into neutral to let the car roll horizontal. I started it up, it was fine, and thus I attributed it to a fluke and left the dealership.

Drove approximately 1 mile to the grocery store, and was inside for maybe 15 minutes. Came out and started the car and it bucked/shimmied again. I shut it off, and restarted, and it ran fine, but now I was concerned. Looked under the car to make sure there were no fluid leaks, and drove maybe 2 more miles home (didn't drive it any more than I had to, no more than 45 mph). No idiot lights came on.

This morning, I checked the oil level 3 times. Each time, it seemed to be well over the "full" level on the dipstick. No fluid leaks. Started it up - same bucking/shimmy. I let the car run for about 10 seconds (tach stayed solid at 1000 rpm), and the car stopped shaking. I then checked the DIC and it showed the oil pressure at 71 psi at idle! Stepping on the accelerator, it went up to 80, but dropped back down to 71 psi when I let off the gas. I shut the car off and called the dealer, who recommended having it towed in (though they closed at noon today and wouldn't be able to look at it until Monday morning).

It would seem to me that the dealer overfilled the oil. I should also add that the oil, when I checked it, was not a clear, golden color, but more of a golden brown - like it had been driven for 1-2k mi. Maybe they didn't let it all drain before pumping in 7 quarts...

In any case, from what I've read, the dangers of overfilling the oil include causing possible seal problems (which the NorthStar-derived V-8's are already known for), as well as the possibility that the crankshaft can whip the oil into a froth, which the oil pump cannot pump, thus leading to possible engine wear/damage. Does it seem likely, however, that I did any damage by driving the car for maybe 3 miles in 2 short trips? Or, was the engine being starved of oil during the startup?

I plan on being at the dealership at 7 a.m. on Monday morning. I'd like them to drain the oil and see how much they get out, and then drop the oil pan to make sure there's no sludge or anything there. I hope there is no long-term damage, but this won't be immediately obvious. I'm sure I'm not going to get them to put anything in writing - probably the best I'm going to get is this last service free, and maybe my next oil change.

Nevertheless, I'm no longer that excited about taking my car there for oil changes (with a previous car, I once had a quickie lube place not tighten my oil filter, and I ended up losing about a quart on my way home - saw the oil trail in my driveway. That's the reason I've subsequently been taking the car to the dealer - particularly with the Aurora V-8, and its oil issues).

Does anyone have any additional thoughts or suggestions about my situation? I would greatly appreciate any input. I'm giving serious thought to buying a couple of ramps and doing my own oil changes again (like I used to on my '70 Nova and '74 Javelin :-)

Thanks, in advance,

--Robert

P.S. I did double-check and at least the dealer seems to have rotated the tires (my LF chrome wheel has a small scratch, and it was now on the LR - and both rear chromes now had more brake dust on 'em than the fronts did). I think I'm going to start marking the tires (and the filter) when I take it in, IF I take it back...

caesarslegion

I do understand some prefer to follow different drain times, choose not to change the oil them self and I respect that. I just follow what works for me. I use fram filters and Im not sure whats so bad about them. Oil over fill on your aurora shouldn't do any damage to your car considering the small amount of miles driven since it was done. Its been done to me and I made the dealer take a quart out and give me a free oil change next time. The seals and gaskets should be ok. If you have the time and know how to change the oil yourself I would do it so you know its done right.

adc100

After the first time oil runs back onto the dipstick from the inside wall of the dipstick. Try pulling it out once and immediately read it (in the morning). Insure its down all the way before you pull it up. I am not implying you don't know what you are doing. Just trying to be sure.

I say this because my son-in-law has a Nissan Quest where the dipstick is a wire and at the end is a bullet shaped reading device. Whoever invented this one needs to be shot at sunset or sooner. If you can't read it the first time forget it-its always full.

Regarding some above posts. I would doubt the true improvement in fuel economy is 11%. No tests that I have read gave values above 4%. And that is in Fleet Commercial Diesels with Syns in Doubpe Punkins, Trans, and Crankcase. The 11% may be an unconcious effort at driving more carefully to get the percieved economy. Its like a self fulfilling profecy. I know people get better milage with magnets on their fuel lines because they are more concerned and want to see economy.

Also as far as Mobil 1 goes. I have come to see through lots of oil analysis that Mobil 1 does not give any special results as far as oil analysis goes. Amsoil appears to do better. However I still personally feel that Mobil is the best of normal commercially available syns. Bhere again there is not a lot of data. Infact I'm somewhat concerned with the quality of the SuperSyn variety. My next oil changes will involve Delvac 1 and Shaeffers. I like the idea of a 40 wt oil in Summer.

bottgers

According to the lab testing results posted on the minimopar site, Fram filters fall apart due to their poor construction. When this happens, they clog and go into the bypass mode, meaning your oil isn't bing filtered. Other than this, Fram filters are fine.

caesarslegion

Ok thanks. Do you think there is any way I can tell if this is the case when I change my oil? I dont dont know if a visual inspection of the filter will tell me or not. If I can actually cut one in half and look but Im not sure if this can be done or not. I might have to buy other filters now.-thanks again.

opera_house_wk

One reason to like Champion filters (Super Tech, STP et all) is that they easily open with a good quality can opener without spilling a drop of oil. Don't borrow one from the kitchen because it is hard on them.

adc100

I just don't think its worth the investigation although you can get even a hack saw, a vice and carefully cut them in half. I always put a couple of holes in the filter so more drainage occurs. opera_house_wk effort seems easy enough.

Just go with another grand-SuperTech are much more sturdy, well built and cheaper.

caesarslegion

Thanks for the info. I wonder what the percentage rate of failures are for fram oil filters.

adc100

Doubt there are very many. Although I have heard that the anti-drainbacks on Frams are weak. When you think of it. People who change oil every 3K would not even need any filter. They will sell their cars before there would be a problem.

opera_house_wk

I took apart a FRAM XG-5 and found it to be an excellent filter. It had an inner spacer which which kept the pleats from collapsing on each other. Had a nice silicone check valve that still worked. Most all filter makes, the check valve deteriorates and stops working after about 4 months. So they can make a good filter.

The FRAM PH series is quite another subject with a smaller number of pleats and less surface area. The center metal tube was flat without any collection ridges or spirals and a greatly reduced number of holes. Holes were not offset and one set of collection holes drained three pleats. It became apparent that the reduced number of holes and spacing was to control flow rate when the oil was cold and thick to prevent collapsing of the media. This means that this filter goes into high bypass mode when the engine is cold. Every one of these PH filters showed evidence of the filter media pushing through (and blocking)the holes of the center tube. At some locations, oil pressure had punctured the filter media at these holes. These filters work but have flow rate issues. Who likes the idea of all the crap that has been caught being flushed back into the system on startup when the filter goes into bypass.

jake73

10/40wt.oil - will it shear down to 10/30wt. ect.? thank's

malachy72

issues can be found at bob's board on www.theoildrop.server101.com/

Predicting how the oil will shear is predicated on the application in which it is used and the conditions there under. Lots of good information there with a lot of knowledgeable people. Someone could probably give you an informed opinion there, backed by experience.

alpha01

Under normal operating conditions, can oil still perform sufficiently after 5000 miles? Our car's owners manual and dealer offer conflicting information. (an 02 Camry 4 cyl.. the non-sludge family of engines) Can't decide which to believe. I figure, the dealer wants the money, and Toyota in their owners manual wants advertising. So what is actually best for the car. I have only read back about 20 posts so I apologize for any repetition.
~alpha

fleetwoodsimca

There are oils that can, in specific circumstances, do what you ask. What you should do with your 2K2 Camry I4 engine is rife with opinion and preference. Were it mine, I'd be using petroleum based oil that I would change every 3K miles, along with a new filter.
Now, I have been thinking about looking into getting a new Camry with I4 engine to replace my Geo/Corolla. You are there, so how do you like it?

alpha01

I'd have to say that the car is close to ideal. Smooth, peppy, refined, effecient powertrain, quiet and composed ride, roomy and ours is Stratosphere Mica (read dark blue) with alloys, and it looks sharp. If you are looking for handling prowess go with the Altima, but if you're looking for cut rate luxury for around 21-22K MSRP, the Camry is the car. Even so, it handles better than our other Camrys- less roll. This is our 5th Camry (thanks to great leases in the 90s).. but our first Camry purchase. This is HEADS and SHOULDERS above the previous generation, and you can get a really good deal on it right now. If you want to know more email me at jmc415@hotmail.com but I'm going to be out of town for a few days. Thanks for advice.
~alpha

fleetwoodsimca

Many thanks for the information. Yes, I am also interested in the Altima. I was thinking that Nissan might have a better pricing than Toyota, based on market position of the two companies.
If you go back in this topic (and other lube threads) you'll find a raft of info on the new SL designation of API, and the prowess of the Chevron Company in developing the current level of the hydrocracking process. It all comes down to thinking that there is reason to use Chevron oil with "IsoSyn," and there is some degree of concensus that the attraction also applies to Havoline SL grade oil. Havoline is a stablemate of Chevron Supreme.