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Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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Comments

  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    and according to SL standards it should. Reducing oil volitility is also good for the environment as well as the engine which has to deal with less sludge.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    It seems rather apparent that high quality SL oils, such as Chevron, are a far better buy than essentially any synthetic. Let the price wars begin!
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    what happens when they're withdrawn for the converter friendly but ZDDP-less GF4 standard? I'm afraid that by next year the prospect of good quality but inexpensive oils will be gone.
  • frulefrule Member Posts: 82
    My point was to the question of WHY Mobil-1(the standard bearer of "true synths") would have to make ANY change at all to meet the Noack Volatility standards for SL oils(which went from 22% to 15% allowed maximum).Especially in light of the fact that so many inexpensive dino oils had already met the standard.It tells me that there is much less difference in Sl dino vs. SL Mobil-1 than many synth adherents want us to believe.Or is it that Mobil-1 is not what it used to be?
    Fleetwood:I agree.
    csandste:But what will the synths be worth under that standard?Maybe we need to buy cases of SL.Or,we'll be putting in additives!
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    I've got SL oil, SuperTech Oil Treatment, and STP Oil Extender on the shelf! Let the good times roll!
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    How big is your garage? If we get to the point at which SL oils are being replaced by a lesser breed, I will load up on SL Chevron Supreme and/or Citgo Supergard and rest easy.
  • gyegye Member Posts: 31
    Here is the link to Chevron FAQ page. Very interesting and very informative.


    http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/baseoils/faq_main.shtml

  • frulefrule Member Posts: 82
    Chevron clearly states in #11 of the FAQs that their SL oils meet the "standard" of being synthetics (at under a buck a quart)!I assume this is the infamous Castrol Syntec standard.

    Good find gye.

  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    but for 10W30 the Wal-Mart house brand oil (AND THESE ARE THE OLD SJ DATA SHEETS) has a higher viscoscity index-- 140 to 135. Something I don't understand here?

    "Why is VI important?
    Viscosity Index (VI) measures the resistance of an oil to viscosity change as temperature changes. The higher the VI, the more stable the viscosity over a wide temperature range. In other words, the higher the VI, the less an oil will thicken as it gets cold and the less it will thin out at higher temperatures—providing better lubricant performance at both temperature extremes. ChevronTexaco UCBOs have very high VIs."
  • gyegye Member Posts: 31
    Thank you!
  • frulefrule Member Posts: 82
    But,Quaker State 10W30 FULL synthetic is only 138!!!Go figure.
  • rayfbairdrayfbaird Member Posts: 183
    Try this link.


    http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/baseoils/isodewax.shtml

  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    I was really suprised to see Chevron tout high viscoscity because I thought it was strictly a function of weight. For example, the VI of 5W30 Chevron is 159, while 10W30 is 135. If high VI is so great, everyone should use a broader range oil-- however I always heard these traded VI for detergency and that broader weight ranges tended to break down.

    I'm at work now, and left my Wal-Mart datasheets at home in my calendar. If I haven't posted by Monday, remind me and I'll dig it out.
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    Remember that VI and viscosity are NOT the same thing. Viscosity is the actual measure of the viscosity itself, the "viscosity index" is the relative comparison of how that viscosity changes with temperature. It is normal for any oil to thin out as the temp increases, it would be great if there was an oil that would maintain a certain viscosity all the way from cold to hot ....AND IF THAT VISCOSITY WAS ENOUGH TO PROTECT THE METAL. The 5w-30 oil may have a great index, but it also has lower actual viscosity (as you should expect a 5w oil to have less viscosity than a 10w/15w or 20w...).(AND remember that the bigger the weight spread the more improver is needed to cause that behavior) ..
    The point is that it is a good thing to use more oil and less viscosity improver any time you can, the visc. improvers are long chain polymers that don't handle temp stress as well as oil does,
    They do help keep the oil from thinning out as much as they would without the help though, problem is they just take a beating doing it, so they break down and its time for the 7 beers oil change (remember that one?)
    Viscosity index is a good thing to use in comparing oils, but it is meaningless unless you are comfortable with the actual viscosity VALUES at the temps that you are concerned with. Having a really thin oil at cold starting temps may be a good thing during a cold winter, but may not protect much when that motor cranks up in the summer heat.
    see y'all
    Rando
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Take a bow!
    Should the next questions be: Are there other SL oils that are "synthetic qualified"? What about Havoline (Chevron/Texaco)? Etc.? >:oÞ
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    Excel into clipboard, so it'll be hard to read. These are the old SJ specs. Didn't have anything for new SL.

    Super Tech SAE Grade(SJ) 5W30 10W30 10W40 20W50
    API Gravity 30.7 30.3 31.3 27.9
    Viscosity cSt 40C 67.0 73.2 104.0 170.5
    Viscosity cSt 100C 10.7 11.0 15.2 19.4
    Visc@100F SUS 342.0 376.0 532.0 887.0
    Visc@210F SUS 62.8 63.9 80.3 98.3
    Visc. Index 155.0 140.0 152.0 121.0
    Flash Point c (F) 207(405) 210(410) 221(430) 227(441)
    Fire Point C(F) 221(430) 227(441) 232(450) 235(455)
    Pour Point C(F) "-37(-35) "-34(-29) "-34(-30) "29(-20)
    Viscosity cP, Max 3500@
    "-cp Max, 4500 "-25(-13) "-20(4) "-20(-4) "-10(14)
    Low Temp Pumping C(F) "-30(-22) "-25(-13) "-25(-13) "-15(-5)
    Viscosity cP Max 30,000.0 30,000.0 30,000.0 30,000.0
  • gyegye Member Posts: 31
    Thanks csandste.

    Chevron 5w-30 is better in everyway than Pennzoil, I doubt even the new SuperTech SL will catch up with Chevron's hydroprocessed Group II+ oil.

    With less than a $1.00 a quart, and spec. not far behind mobil1 SuperSyn, it's truly a winner.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    This information is "determined" by looking at the oil sheets. These mean very little. The only information that matters is how does the oil protect a vehicle in real world driving. There is no information on this supplied by the oil manufactures and precious little out of these posts. I'm not slamming anyone. Just saying that there isn't much to go on.
  • frulefrule Member Posts: 82
    But your argument flies in the face of the synth proponents.They base their arguments on "lab tests".

    Who has had a motor-oil related failure of an engine?I never have and heaven knows I've had enough cars/trucks!But I've lost transmissions on old vehicles.I've had suspension failures,and water-pumps,and injectors,and brake problems,etc.,etc.

    I'd venture to wager that the "safest" way is to change oil frequently,regardless of oil type(for real-world driving).If one wants to spend $4-$7 a quart for a PAO,I can't say that is wrong,it's just not for me.

    If others want to use long intervals,that's their choice.They are probably OK,too.Or use $10 filters that "may" clog early-on,that's their choice.Again,they are probably OK.

    My view of the big picture is that we are in over-kill using $1.00 SL oil at 4,000 mile intervals.BUT,it seems a safe route.

  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    I am still using up my 10W-30 SJ Exxon supplies that I stockpiled in 5 quart jugs in 1999! I overbought due to getting each jug for $5.00 with a Deutsch filter thrown in for free. I am using other brands of 5W-30 SJ oils. I'll eventually get to the SL stocks. The bargains are hard to pass up!
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    I put the following on the synthetic thread too..

    We have all been looking at the physical properties of these oils. I know the only oils considered as "energy conserving" are the xw/30 oils (and the thinner 5w/20 too I suppose). What is the componant that is the friction reducer in these oils? Anybody know why they don't put it in any heavier oils? Anybody remember "Winn's friction prufe????" at least I think that is what it was called..I have not been able to find any "coefficient of friction" or "fanning friction factor" for engine oils,,,,anybody on here found that?
    The friction proofing should be a major consideration because it is a major reason for using the thinner oils....GAS MILEAGE, but I can't find those numbers. Seems like it would be a major comparative value.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    My 10W-30 Formula Shell oil is "energy conserving" and I think your statement above includes it, but what you said concerning 5W-20 oil-- calling it thinner, may not be correct.
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    It should be thinner, especially at operating temp .
    On the Chevron page, the viscosity of the 5w/20 is 49.2 at 40c and 8.6 at 100c,
    the 5w/30 is 66 and 11 respectively, and the 10w/30 is 75 and 11 respectively.
  • tntitantntitan Member Posts: 306
    If anyone can refer me back to these discussions in prior posts I will go back and read them. I was really wondering what opinions there were about using these. Are they difficult to install? Does it really make it any easier to drain the oil? Since I am changing my oil every 4K miles and do not plan on trying extended oil changes I thought this might be worth looking into if it makes life easier.
  • frulefrule Member Posts: 82
    Simple to install.Oil easy to drain(you can run a hose into any container.Stopping/starting the flow at will is nice.

    See topic about the Fumoto Valve(probably a couple of pages back).

  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Since Edmunds doesn't have any you'll have to suffer. I believe though that the comments were positive about both the Furmoto valve and the Fram. I don't have either but the Fram looks better to me.
  • yurakmyurakm Member Posts: 1,345
    Saw the Fram valve at Wal-Mart yesterday. It costs $12.50, if I remember right.

    Also, the new Mobil-1 in big 5-quart bottles for $17.88. Standard 1-quart botles cost $4.54. Used to be $4.17 with the old TriSyn Mobil-1.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Yes, makes draining a whole lot easier. Fram and fumoto make them, fumoto about twice the cost as Fram. www.fumotovalve.com.

    Fram reputation versus Japanese. I have 5 Fumotos on my cars.
  • yurakmyurakm Member Posts: 1,345
    Different design. Fumoto is a ball valve, like in plumbing; Fram - actuator valve, a remote relative of tire valve.

    No tools are needed to open the Fumoto drain; Fram have a matched "nipple" and hose, as with air pump for tires.

    Fram is covered by a screw-on dust cap when not drained. For pictures, click http://www.fram.com/home/index.html go to Products, than to Accessories.

    http://www.fumotovalve.com/
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Is coming soon. I saw a post from a host in one of the forums with a link to a letter from the Town Hall leader. The Town Hall is being revamped, for the better. Adequate search capabilities are coming soon!
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    My best guess is that you are talking viscosity index at high and low temperatures on different viscosities of oil. The low temp viscosity of 5W-20 and 5W-30 is, in both cases, 5, right? One only "improves" to 20 while the other "improves" to 30 at higher temp. Anyway, viscosity and viscosity index are different measures. It's just a matter of definition.
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    check back a few posts.
    The index is meaningless unless the actual viscosities at operating temps (starting temp and operating temps) are what you want for the conditions.
    The 5w/20 and 5w/30 theoretically SHOULD have the same viscosity at low temp but according to the Chevron data sheets the 5w/20 is still thinner (less viscosity) than the 5w/30 at both 40c and 100c. I was only looking at the Chevron oil because I use Havoline and Chevron oil. You would have to find the values for other mfgrs if you use the others.
    No two ways about it, 5w/20 is thin oil, and it thins out more at higher temps than the 5w/30 does, as the 20 implies that as well.
    Remember the higher number just indicates that the oil does not thin out any more than that equivalent wt oil would at higher temps. It does NOT thicken up (or "improve") at higher temps.
    ---re-read post number 1564.---
    and post 1573 shows the viscosity values that Chevron reports for the oil wts we are talking about.
    Viscosity index indicates the amount of relative viscosity change as the oil heats up, the higher the index, the less change as the oil heats up.
    A 10w/40 would have a higher index than 10w/30 would because it does not thin out as much. The actual viscosity value is what really matters.
    Don't be so hung up on the viscosity index, if you want a high index oil just use some 5w/50, doesn't mean it is really what you want.
    see ya.
    Rando
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    That's all we're talking here. I have Chevron and Havoline on my shelves in great abundance. Good stuff. I put quote marks around the word to indicate I was talking in short form rather than highly specific terms.
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    If instead of dropping the pan, I use a suction pump to suck the fluid from the dipstick tube, how much fluid would be drained?
    Does it suck up from the torque convertor or the pan?

    car: 99 mazda protege ES Auto.
    ATF capacity 5 Quarts
  • dnguyen65dnguyen65 Member Posts: 26
    Hello,

    I wonder if anyone knows how long an open bottle of engine oil can keeps its quality? I know that brake oil can't stay the same after being open due to moisture absorption but i am not sure about engine oil.

    Thanks
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    leaving brake fluid open for any long period of time says "throw me away!!!)
    engine oil is probably fine unless any water has been dripping directly in it,, and don't forget bugs, just pour it through a paper towel is what I would do, otherwise it is pretty stable stuff.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    I hold the opinion that motor oil can be stored "on the shelf" for just nearly any length of time you might choose. If the original seal is on the container, you have little to worry about. Once you open the container, you need to observe obvious care concerning contamination, and such. I am currently tapped into a number of 5 quart jugs of Exxon 10W-30 that I bought at extremely low prices in 1999. A few days ago, I popped the lid on a sealed can of STP that my father bought about 25 years ago. I used it.
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    I've seen them for sale at flea markets, like the old paper/metal cans of oil.....but then again....I've opened some pretty old bottles of whiskey too.
    see ya
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    According to my wife, when I own it, it is junk. When you own it, it is an antique!
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    been there brother!
  • knapp3knapp3 Member Posts: 112
    I know you've expressed interest in Walmart synthetic oil before. Recently I too asked PZ/QS for the data sheets on that oil. They sent me info on Walmart dino oil instead. So I mailed their cover letter back and specifically asked for SuperTech synthetic data. I just got their reply...everything was about Penzoil synthetic oil, nothing at all about Walmart branded stuff. Its like they totally ignored my request. I give up.

    The only interesting statement I saw in the Penzoil brochures had to do with extended oil drains. While they recommended that consumers follow car manufacturers recommended intervals, they did say that they felt these would be changing to more extended durations in the near future. That was it. No justification, comment of further explanation, just the blanket prediction. Wierd!
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Do you suppose the message is that Walmart synthetic is relabelled Pennzoil synthetic?
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    Boy that's an oxymoron. It's hydrocracked. Now I think that hydrocracks are a definite improvement over conventional, but now that I know it's less than half the cost I'll be danged if I'll pay $4.50 when I can get Maxlife for $2.25

    BUT, if the Walmart price is cheap enough????
  • knapp3knapp3 Member Posts: 112
    My impression is that they either don't have data on Walmart syn oil, or don't want to share it right now for some reason. The Penzoil info was okay, but heavily slanted to the general public. Almost no technical info for any of their customers who might be so inclined. I threw it all away, but I do recall that the only sentence which discussed "full synthetic" left me with the impression that they meant full, as opposed to blended. I don't mean to disparage them, but that was my honest reaction.
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    Cross posted this on the filter thread, but seems relevant here. (I've been out of town and am catching up.)


    Unfortunately the new Bobistheoilguy page seems to be down at the moment so this is from memory..


    http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi


    there is a poster over there (Johnny) who works for Pennzoil and is very familiar with the product history. SuperTech was made by a company in Shreveport which was taken over by Quaker State which was later merged into Pz/QS. This explains why the product is different. To quote from the Quaker State history section of the web page.


    http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/about/history.asp


    "Among the important acquisitions was Specialty Oil Companies of Shreveport, Louisiana. This firm's broad product line included a wide range of industrial lubricants and a strong private label manufacturing capability. In addition, its distribution system greatly enhanced the overall Quaker State system. Specialty Environmental Services greatly enhanced Quaker State's "green" capabilities, particularly in the field of waste oil collection and recycling. These services not only assist Q Lube operations, but they also enable the newly formed Fleet, Commercial and Industrial (FCI) division to provide its customers with complete lubricant service."


    Thus the dino product (which I use) really isn't Quaker State or Pennzoil in the most narrow sense. Not sure what the background is on SuperTech synthetic which could be a totally different product.

  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    the SuperTech synthetic because they won't provide any data for this oil. There's something wrong when a company won't provide info for their oil. It tells me they're hiding something. Their syn is the least expensive of all the syns, but it's still 3 times more expensive than dinos. I switched to Chevron's SL. I called them for info, and they emailed it to me in less than a minute. The specs on this oil are pretty impressive, and it costs about 1/3 of what the SuperTech costs. Until SuperTech is willing to send me some info for their syn, I'm not buying it.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    bottgers You know what you and many others like about synthetics, and it will be quite interesting to get your impression of the Chevron SL in comparison. If you should find out the actual comparison between Chevron and Havoline SLs, let us know, as well. I am suspecting they are (almost) the same thing under two labels.
  • omaha25rsomaha25rs Member Posts: 1
    I am very interested in this also. I haven't been able to find Chevron in the Omaha area but we do have Havoline. The Havoline SL bottle is the only one I have seen that states they use Group II base stock.
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    When you go to the Havoline page to check the base oils, it directs you to the Chevron base oils page. I called Texaco and asked about the
    difference? in the two oils or if they were now the same (I think someone else on here also asked the same question recently..)
    They told me that they were different, they could not legally sell the same thing under 2 names.
    We all know that some major companies will sell base oils to other companies that will then add the additives themselves and rename the oil. I bet there is only a minor difference between the Chevron/Havoline oils, maybe even just minor amount of difference in concentration of the additives. The specifications of the Chevron and Texaco oils was exactly the same when I compared them the other day (all very good as far as I'm concerned).
    see y'all
    Rando
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    Our Checker Auto sells Havoline. I will get their phone number from the bottle, and I will call and ask them to send me the spec sheet. That should tell us something.
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