Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

according2me

and if the engine is not consuming quarts of oil between changes or leaking profusely, I can't imagine you getting much better lubrication with any other product IMHO.

Of course, I'm assuming 10w30 is what is called for in this application. In dino (SL) oil, most major brands are good for at least 3K if no internal engine problems contaminate the oil.

Have you read any Dakota forums to get an idea of the longevity of this particular engine? Are there any documented weaknesses in this design. I think that would be a good area to investigate if your looking to go the longhaul.

fleetwoodsimca

I really think the high mile oils are a split between being good for REALLY high mile cars and marketing hype. Your habit of replacing cars/trucks not too far above 50K, and maintaining them very well reminds me of my similar pattern. Years ago I got into full synthetics, then came back to mineral oils. I am thoroughly convinced that the vehicles are so good, and the oils so high tech, that folks like you and me don't need them. I consider the "high mile" oils something my pampered "fleet" just does NOT need. Period.

bottgers

......and it did absolutely nothing in my case. I can't speak for all the high mileage oils, but it appears to me that Max Life is nothing but marketing hype.

csandste

Valvoline was the oldest lubricating oil manufacturer, although it's headquartered in Ashland Kentucky it historically was an eastern, Pennsylvania type oil. Pennzoil and Quaker State were headquartered in Texas before they merged with Shell (they also owned Wolf's Head another old Pennsylvania). I don't think any of these oils have much to do with Pennsylvania any more. Neither does Kendall (a Phillips-Conoco brand if I remember correctly). For that matter Castrol refers to castor oil but except for a small bit of their production, that's all crude oil from a (wide)variety of places as well-- probably just another BP brand.

Equilon is history, but I assume that Shell will use some of its excess capacity to shift production to its ex-Equilon plants when the Shreveport blending plant is history. It's a little hard to keep up on what's going because Johnny the PZ/QS insider no longer posts regularly to BOBISTHEOILGUY.

Here is the Shell 10W30 VOA from Bob's site. Unlike SuperTech it doesn't have moly. Assume the Equilon Havoline was essentially the same.

Aluminum - 0
Chromium - 0
Iron - 1
Copper - 0
Lead - 0
Tin - 0
Molybdenum - 1
Nickel - 0
Manganese - 0
Silver - 0
Titanium - 0
Potassium - 0
Boron - 3
Silicon - 2
Sodium - 1
Calcium - 1604
Magnesium - 5
Phosphorus - 731
Zinc - 857
Barium - 1

SUS Viscosity @ 210F - 61.4
Flashpoint in F - 425

fleetwoodsimca

It's hard to make heads or tails of the origins of crude in any product nowadays. I refer to Pennzoil and Quaker State as the Pennsylvania oils, and it is not likely an accurate term, just a lazy one. My attraction to Valvoline goes back to my motorcycling childhood that started at age 13 in the late 1950's. In those days, Valvoline was the cool stuff for cycles. I run it to this day in my Honda Valkyrie. I'm trying the 15W-40 AllFleet brew. I have yet to see a jug of the new Valvoline Motorcycle oil on a shelf anywhere.

bluedevils

Last weekend, I changed the oil in our Isuzu Trooper. 5 quarts of Havoline (the ChevronTexaco variety) 10W30 @ $0.68/qt (clearance at Target) and a SuperTech filter ($1.97 at Wal-Mart). Cost, excluding 'shop supplies' and sales tax: $5.37.

That's why I'm comfortable changing the oil every 3k miles and not bothering with the synthetic stuff any more.

runpanther

Yup - I've the same deal; 5 qts of Havoline (Chevron/Tex variety), and a ST Filter. Just can't beat $5.37 anywhere or anyhow.

Both my Highlander and Sebring Convertible get their oil changed between the 3-4K mark. Excellent value and piece of mind for the money.

bottgers

....you don't even need to change at 3K, that stuff's good for at least 4K, and probably 5K. That's an excellent price BTW. I'm using the Chev in my Tercel and I love it. Looks like I'll be using Pennzoil in my new MPV though. It requires 5W-20, and Penn's contains 70% group III base stock, which is superior to Chev/Havo's group II. Don't quote me on this, but I thnk the Penn may also have moly.

runpanther

. . . you're right. The Havoline can easily go 4K. For some reason or another I get really nervous when approaching the 4K mark. When the mileage hits 3K that is when I start thinking about my next drain. - - so I'm usually around the 3.5K mark.

With the Highlander and the sludge risk I try to drain as close to 3k as possible.

bottgers

You're fighting that psycological thing that's been drilled into your head over the last X number of years; change that oil every 3K miles! That rule doesn't apply with this stuff.

bottgers

.....when an interesting thread is going along, and then all of a sudden, everyone just stops posting.

krzyss

mean that all interesting stuff was already told ;-)
I bought case of Mobil 1 0W40 and I am waiting for 4000 mile to tick in my new Passat (1.8T) to change oil.
5W40 is recomended but I only found 0W40 in Mobil 1 line.
When I asked dealer what oil they are using I was told 5W30, which is against owner's manual. I told them this but I did not get any response.

Krzys

PS VW suggests 5000 miles interval for 1.8T and 2.8 V6.
2.8 VR6 has initial 5000 and then each 10000 miles recomended interval.

asafonov

Greetings,

I am considering buying a 2002 5-speed Chevy Prizm from a private seller. It has 20000 miles on it, clear title, CARFAX shows it was registered as a private party vehicle in the town the seller is from.

Now my question: the seller claims to have done all the oil changes himself at 3k intervals, with synthetic oil, too, but he did not keep the receipts. He has no problem with the mechanic of my choice going over the car in detail and confirming (or disproving) his statements. I trust this mechanic since I worked with this little shop for several years.

Is it reasonable that a mechanic can determine whether oil was changed regularly on a car of this type? I am not talking every 3k miles - 4 or 5 times over 20k miles would have been nice.

Thanks for you input,

armtdm

Well, a Corolla at heart and hard to kill. Yes, and if the valve cover is easy to remove it would be worth the few buck to have the mechanic pull it and look inside. I will bet at 20,000 this is in good shape. can see intot he filler neck and it is clean they he changed it pretty often.

fleetwoodsimca

Have you asked why the Prizm is for sale? They are tough rascals. I had a 1997 that I bought new. My two daughters used it as new drivers. I traded it in for a 2002 Merc Mountaineer after the girls ran it (the Prizm) some 65K.

asafonov

fleetwoodsimca, thanks for your tips on checking out a used car - in this and the other forum. I will make sure to ask the mechanic to check for worn/replaced rear pads.

The seller does have a good story - commuted 35 miles one way for year, then got a job 5 miles away from his place, and bought an SUV (of course). Sellers had no problem with the inspection at a shop of my choice. According to CARFAX, the title is clean and the car has been registered to a private owner in a little town in Wisconsin the seller is (claims to be?) from. I ran a reverse phone lookup on the number sellers provided, and it is a private residence in that town. See, I am pretty paranoid...

It is probably time for me to come clean and mention that I bought this car on regional eBay. This is not the first used car I bought and checked out, but definitely a first big eBay purchase. I am willing to take the extra risk, mitigated somewhat by a mechanic's inspection. As for driving the car hard, that's certainly possible and probably hard to ascertain, but the sellers are a 30-ish couple with 2 kids - not the type you would expect to be joyriding, especially a Prizm. Unless they will borrow the kids tomorrow to APPEAR like a responsible married couple - they are bringing this car and another one to the Twin Cities for inspection and pickup.

malachy72

can tell you something about engine wear. If the car has no evidence of body damage/repair, I would guess that it's as indestructable as Corolla's usually are.

jmo

welst10

I'm new to this board. It seems that everyone determine oil change intervals by milage driven (3K, 5K, etc.). But I've read in more than one places, and this makes sense to me, that your accurate intervals depend on on 1) number of cold starts and 2) engine running hours. eg, if you have a lot of cold starts (ie, a lot of short trips w/ <8 miles distance) and low speed driving (average 25 mph or less), I'd use interval as short as 2.5k. On the other hand, if most of your trips are 8+ miles in diatance and average 40+ mph, you can use interval as long as 5K. I'm talking about convention oil here.

welst10

Did anyone do some kind of comparison of Castrol GTX vs. Havoline? My car (03 acura 3.2CL) has 9.5K miles on it. In the previous two oil changes, I used Castrol GTX 5w30 (I'm a little concerned about using Honda/acura's recommendation of 5w20). But for last one since I couldn't find Castrol on sale, I used Havoline 5w30 (the Chevron/Texaco product). I am a little worried. Is the Havoline as good as Castrol gtx?

malachy72

on both counts. But I would be reluctant to screw around with the oil viscosities while the car is under warranty.

JMO

csandste

Only down side is it doesn't contain moly, something found in both Castrol and Pennzoil. All three are excellent. Castrol's reputation is probably soiled by the group III Syntec thing, but the GTX seems to be good value. If forced to choose, I'd rank 'em this way: 1. Pennzoil, 2. Chevron/Havoline 3. Castrol. Most people would probably put Chevron slightly ahead. All three seem vastly superior to Valvoline, for example.

welst10

This may be off topic a bit, but I couldn't find a board on transmission fluid. My friend who is a car-care enthusiastic changes transmission fluid in his 98 accord every 10K miles by himself. He says it's an easy job. My dealer told me to change every 15K. However, my owner's manual (03 Acura CL) says to change at 60K for the 1st time then every 30K (this is severe schedule). I'm thinking about taking a middle ground: 30K first change then evry 15K. What do you think?

fleetwoodsimca

Heyyyyy! W'at you got 'gainst Valvoline, Dude? (:o]
I don't see your logic on this one! Over the years, I have found it to be every bit as good as any of the "big name" oil company brands, and therefore I have a predilection toward using it. I'm curious why you consider it a lesser brand.

armtdm

I agree with your schedule. Probably a proprietary Honda fluid as well so be careful what you use. I suggest synthetic if compatible

welst10

It's obvious that Honda does not manufacteur motor oild and ATF by itself. It contracts these stuff out. For example, Honda oil is make by ExxonMobil (I suspect it's Mobil DriveClean rebadged). But I am not sure who makes ATF for Honda. Is Honda ATF just a major ATF brand rebadged or is it really specially formulized for Honda transimission? Anyone has idea on this?

csandste

Number 3 or 4 (w. Castrol) in market share. I've never seen a very good VOA on it. For example:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;- f=11;t=000008

csandste

This is a fairly concensus reading of Valvoline from Bob's site. There is some speculation that Valvoline has strong basestocks that don't always show up in analysis. Also, Valvoline sells lots of private brand oil. I recently used Valvoline at an instant oil change-- most recent change was with Castrol. I'd probably take other brands over Valvoline if given a choice, but wouldn't steer away from a place that used it. If you have information about Valvoline's base stocks somehow giving better real-world wear numbers than the analyses show, I'd be interested.

response to: "What happened to Valvoline?"

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;- f=1;t=001851

Can't speak for their claim, but I can somewhat answer the rest.

I use Valvoline products currently, may not in the future.

General consensus is that their oils tend to have a weak additive package in comparison to other brands. One example is no moly in in gasoline oil formulations (it is used in their diesel formulations). In addition, their dino oils seem to shear back rather quickly. On top of that, their Synthetic Product, synpower, is a group III base oil and not a true synthetic oil like Mobil 1 etc..., although it still gets priced like one. And, on top of that, a lot of their product line can be called gimmicky, witness the huge new line of Maxlife products (the motor oil is decent) like ATF, Antifreeze, etc... Its also tough to get a striaght answer out of tech support (although who makes it easy these days?).

All that being said, the three samples I have had, one durablens sample looked great and had plenty of life left - Vis and TBN were great- currently running it out to 5,000 miles. Another had good wear numbers but was DONE - there was no more mileage to be had on that sample - it had sheared back way into 5w20 range and the TBN was 3.5. The only dino sample I did was at 3500 miles and had sheared back to nearly a 20w. TBN was good, tough to gauge wear due to a bad air filter. I'm running Durablend in it now, so we'll see how it compares...

fleetwoodsimca

I have used quite a variety of brands of mineral oil and synthetic oil over several decades of cars, trucks, and motorcycles. I have never detected a practical world problem with Valvoline, and in fact have a preference for considering it an excellent choice for most vehicles. The company has the additional attraction of being "the little guy" producer holding its own in the world of the megalithic corporations that crush out little guys from the market place. A friend of mine used Valvoline (changing oil and filter every 7500 miles) to run a Chevy Chevette out to nearly 210K miles, at which time the upholstery, floor boards, and fender bottoms had failed, so he replaced the vehicle. The engine was running fine...

csandste

Don't have any real problem with Valvoline. Ashland is certainly a Fortune 500 company worth about $8 billion in sales, but compared to Shell or BP it could be considered small. Bob's site has given it a mediocre rating, but there's only a few people posting on it (or here for that matter)-- so their evaluation certainly isn't based on any kind of scientific evidence. Your story about the long-lived Chevette reinforces my belief that most cars kick the bucket from things other than oil-related engine failures.

I was hoping to find a nice chart showing motor oil market share. I found a reference to Pennzoil having 22% of the market and PZ/QS having a combined 37%. That leaves QS with 15% unless Wolf's Head or their private brands have a cut of that pie. Valvoline was listed in an article as having 14% of the market so it's certainly close to Quaker State. I think Valvoline makes a great deal of private brand stuff but don't know if that's part of the reference market or not. Interestingly enough, Valvoline almost put in a bid for Quaker State when Pennzoil did-- that would have made the combined company #1 in market share. I'm not sure how Valvoline compares with Castrol but think they vie for #4 in market share.

So... Valvoline might be the little guy, but Ashland Petroleum really isn't that small-- just in comparison with the big guys.

bottgers

.....I used Max Life. I didn't like it because it didn't do what Valvoline said it does. As far as dinos go, I think Chevron and Pennzoil are both far superior to anything Valvoline makes.

fleetwoodsimca

Better than Valvoline? What constitutes better? I don't doubt for a minute that you were disappointed in an oil designed for high mileage vehicles-- any brand, any price. I look at motor oils as having a need to be above a certain threshold in my opinion base. Yes, my opinion. Period. I'll use the 99 cent brew in preference to the others, unless there's a 68 cent one available. If a motor oil is below that opinion base line I mentioned, then I don't want it. Few are below the line. Now, a need at my house for 5W-20 creates a new parameter for some of my selection. Same rules, though. >:o]

csandste

On the other hand, I'm not sure that there are other ways to goose up anti-wear additives. Maybe Valvoline has strong base stocks that don't show up in analysis. Chevron looks very strong and doesn't have any moly, so moly's certainly not everything.

I too don't believe in paying a great deal for oil-- use SuperTech, which will probably soon be the same as Shell. I don't think any of these are as good as Pennzoil, but probably good enough. I prefer SuperTech for Wallyworld oil changes because it's a few bucks cheaper AND it's a bottled oil. There's a small chance that bulk oil isn't what it's supposed to be, an even smaller chance that bottled Valvoline is bootleg, but who's going to be screwing around with Wal-Mart's house brand?

bottgers

Chevron uses a group II hydrocracked base stock. The Pennzoil uses moly plus group II+ (70% group III in their 5W 20). As far as I know, none of Vavoline's dinos have any of these qualities. The Chevron and Pennzoil are superior.

fleetwoodsimca

Valvoline 5W-20 is formulated SPECIFICALLY to meet the requirements of Honda and Ford for such oil to be used in the specified engines Honda and Ford have designated. Unless this particular Valvoline oil is NOT what is claimed, it has EVERY characteristic of superiority over other grades that are required by these hard-to-please car companies! This leaves nothing about which to speculate. Done deal. El Fin, hombre.

bottgers

........a group II hydrocracked or group II+ with moly? If not, than it's not an equal to, and certainly not superior to the Chevron or Pennzoil, I don't care what manufacturer's specs it meets. You don't think the Chevron and Pennzoil doesn't far exceed Honda's specs? Give me a break!

fleetwoodsimca

What I'm saying is that the Valvoline 5W-20 is EVERYTHING it needs to be to provide full protection to Honda and Ford engines that are designated for 5W-20 use. You may well be right, that Chevron and Pennzoil have formulas that for some applications may be better choices. I have yet to see a jug of Chevron 5W-20. How about you?

bottgers

...is if you can get a better oil for the same, or nearly the same price, why wouldn't you? I haven't seen the Chevron in the big jugs, but I haven't been looking for it either.

fleetwoodsimca

I don't see evidence that Chevron is selling 5W-20 as of this time...

bottgers

....but if you need 5W20, go with the Pennzoil. It contains roughly 70% group III base stock and moly. It's quite possibly the best 5W20 dino available.

fleetwoodsimca

I'll keep an eye peeled on the Chevron. I have yet to see 5W-20 on my local shelves. That was a deciding factor on picking up a case of Valvoline in that weight. Does Pennzoil list the moly on the container, or did you have to go to other resources to find that? Just wondering...

edwardn1

...back in the 70s and 80s when a lot of mechanics swore that Pennzoil causes sludge?

fleetwoodsimca

And additionally, when I bought a brand new 1993 Explorer ten years ago, I was advise to not use Pennzoil in it. I was told that "Ford" felt that it was inadequate for the engine. Do you recall from many years ago, that Quaker State was reputed to have caused an epidemic of blown engines for which they had to pay?

bottgers

......if moly is listed on the bottle or not. All the info I got on the Pennzoil came from Johnny (the Pennzoil guy) on bobistheoilguy's web site. He works for Pennzoil.

fleetwoodsimca

For those of us that now possess vehicles for which Ford and Honda "require" 5W-20 weight, there can be nothing more comforting than to read a label that says something to the effect that "This oil meets or exceeds the specifications set by Ford and Honda for their engines that require this weight."

edwardn1

...which is one of the reasons that I stopped using their products. When they came out with 4x4 oil I wrote them off in my mind as a gimmicky company with a low regard for the consumers intelligence. 4x4 oil? Get real. As for pennzoil, it will take a lot more than moly for me to gamble with their product. I heard a lot of mechanics tell horror stories about sludged up engines using Pennzoil. I've used Castrol GTX in everything from motorcycles to cars and trucks and have never seen a problem. I would also use Havoline or Valvoline without reservation. All three of these are VERY WIDELY AVAILABLE so I can get more if needed as I hate to mix brands of oil as I suspect that even though it's "OK", I doubt that their additives compliment each other. I use the walmart supertech in an lawn mower that burns lots of oil but will not use it in anything of value untill it is no longer made by pennzoil-quaker state. P-Q also sells the Fram oil filter under both the pennzoil and quaker names. What an appropriate marriage.

bottgers

However, according to the folks over in bobistheoilguy.com, those days of that grey sludge build up that mechanics used to find in engines where Pennziol was used are gone. In fact according to some of the people in that forum, (some of them are mechanics) Pennzoil makes one of the best, if not the best dino available. They use some of the best base stocks, in some cases THE best base stock, they have moly, and the oil analysis results that have been posted are showing very good numbers. I don't think you can compare today's Pennzoil with the stuff they used to make.

according2me

with group2+ base since before the "SL" rating. I used it in a Stratus 2.4L for 85K miles and the head was very clean when the vehicle was totalled.

I also used it in my Accord I-4 during break-in before switching to M1.

But biases are hard to overcome and if you were burned years ago by their product I can understand using another brand. Most "SL" major brand oils are very good today for upto 4K mile intervals.

When Wallyworld doesn't have the M1 5qt jugs on sale, I have no problem using Pennz, Chevron, and Castrol "SL" products.

bottgers

Years ago I used to use nothing but Penn. Then I went through tech school with a guy who was a certified mechanic. Keep in mind, this was back in the early 90's. He told me that every vehicle he worked on where he was able to see the inside of the engine, and Pennzoil had been used, there was a grey film of sludge built up. He said this was only present in the Pennzoil vehicles.

It took years, and lots of reasearching data before I was willing to use Pennzoil again. I'm now convinced today's Penn is one the best oils available. Gone are the days of the grey sludge.

fleetwoodsimca

I just can't go with that. The scare runs too deep.

bottgers

Oil analysis test results don't lie.