Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

icruse

Man, You sure do keep seeing this pop up again and again.
"I knew this guy who knew this man and his father knew this guy's uncle and the Pennzoil just sludged his engine horrible, or it gave it this strange coating, etc., etc."
When I was a Parts manager most of the techs I knew didn't know too much about oil at all.
I began using Pennzoil in the early 80's and have NEVER had a problem with engines, all have been VERY clean, and have put over 200,000 miles on several of these cars.
Personally, I believe that any of todays SL rated regular oils will give you great service when changed around 3,000 miles or so.
Not going to get into this brand war thing, choice is yours.
But please, let us not perpetuate this myth about Pennzoil being a dog of an oil because it just "ain't so."
Good Day!

fleetwoodsimca

That's far less than convincing. You enjoy your choice, and the next person will enjoy theirs. I suspect the oil companies could care less. I think that's only fair.(:o]

edwardn1

I've heard the story of pennzoil sludge from techs from both here in AZ and in NY state. This is over a period of more than a decade from techs that did not know each other. I see no reason to gamble with a company with this reputation spread over thousands of miles. This is also a Co. that puts its name on junk FRAM made oil filters. Until I get a really good reason to pick a oil that I KNOW DIRECTLY some people had trouble with, I'll pass on the sludge, but to each his own.

csandste

I'm not trying to change your mind about Pennzoil because I sense it's already made up. This is for other readers.

I don't want to get into trouble clipping from Bob's board, but the Pennzoil=paraffin=sludge story has been circulating since Pennzoil and QS were both "Pennsylvania" oils (they're not any more). In some parts of the country this was considered good, and in others it was considered bad. Some feel the biggest advantage to Pennzoil is that it's group 2+ oil. In reality I don't know if that means that much. From what I hear, group I actually has more cleaning properties than other dino oils. Frankly I think every SL oil will perform nicely in any (possible except. Toyota) engine if changed every 4K or less.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;- - f=1;t=000614
posted October 12, 2002 07:58 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Drew99GT:
A few people here have indivated Penzoil conventional oil with purebase to be decent. Any other enthusiest message board I've been to has been hostile to Penzoil because it contains perafin wax. Now what am I supposed to believe now for crying out loud
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I believe the parrafin wax myth has already been debunked. At least that's what I read here, from people who sound like they know more than your average "I repeat what I hear" consumer.

Drew-
For every person who chooses BrandA conventional oil over BrandB conventional oil, you're likely to run into another person who chooses BrandB over BrandA. After reading a lot of threads here, there doesn't seem to be enough of a performance difference amongst your typical name-brand SL dino oils to split hairs over.

(Chevron is available at Costco, a case of 12 1qt bottles for $11.69)
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Posts: 36 | From: SoCal | Registered: Oct 2002 | IP: Logged |
 
Patman

Administrator
Member # 6

  posted October 12, 2002 08:02 PM
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For shorter trips like that, you are better off sticking with a synthetic, even if you extend the intervals to 5k. Synthetics can handle the shorter trips better than dino oils can, there is an SAE paper on this (the Aunt Millie test, as it's been referred to)

So if I were you I'd continue with the Mobil 1, do an oil analysis, and see that it's still ok for longer than 3k. If I were you I'd make sure to go on a longer highway trip at least once per week also.
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Posts: 5593 | From: Mississauga, Ontario | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged |
 
Johnny

Member
Member # 10

  posted October 12, 2002 08:11 PM
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Drew: Well, I have to chime in now, there's that darn word parffin wax again. I have posted this somewhere else on this board, but I will do it again. Pennzoil causes sludge because it contains pariffin wax. BS!. That is a tale that started over 70 years ago, and it just won't go away. Every brand of dino oil is made from pariffin crude oil. That's where this idea of pariffin wax comes from. One of the first things any oil company refinery does to crude is de-wax it.

I use to live in your beautiful town, wish I still did. I now live in Northern Wisconsin, and I can assure you it get's a lot colder here than where you live. As a matter of fact, when winter sets in, it's here for months with no let up. My friends in Minnesota go through the same thing. I drive a 2000 Pontiac Grand Prix and use nothing but 10W30 Pennzoil in it year round. The car is parked outside and is not plugged in. I have never had any problems starting it in the winter. The car now has 54,000 miles on it, and it is as clean as a baby's butt inside. NO SLUDGE. I change the oil on an average of every 4,500 miles. When you are talking about OTC dino oils, I will put ours up against anyones.
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Posts: 392 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged |
 
Ken
unregistered

  posted October 12, 2002 08:50 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by kreativ:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drew99GT:
[qb]
....
Any other enthusiest message board I've been to has been hostile to Penzoil because it contains perafin wax.
....

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I don't know what the myth was about paraffin, but the facts are that crude oils are either a paraffin base crude, or an asphaltic base crude, or something between the two, depending on geographic location of the oil wells. Paraffin base crudes produce the best lubes, so that's what every oil company uses.

As Johnny says, ALL crudes are de-waxed. There is no, and probably never was, any problem with lubes made from paraffin based crudes, and if it was, it's the refiner's or the blender's fault, not the source of the crude oil.

Pennzoil is excellent. So is Chevron. So is Havolin mady by ChevronTexaco. Older Havolin made by Equilon (a joint venture between Shell & Texaco) is still on some retailer's shelves and probably OK.

If you want one of the "full synthetic" oils made from a very highly refined petroleum oil call Group III base stock, that'll work very well and cost less than a true synthetic. Pennzoil's synthetic is one of these, as is Castrol Syntec. Any will do well for you..get them if the price is right.

For your application you can not go wrong with any name-brand API service category SL oil on the shelf. How long do you plan on owning your car? Well over 100,000 miles? Then do pay attention to the fine details of these various good oils. Otherwise...no problem.

Ken

vinyljunkie

I am thinking of using M1 5w-30 since I cannot find 5w-20 out here in Los Angeles. Anyways, I have always had great results with Mobil 1.

A question I have though is what is moly?

according2me

Moly is molybdenum trialkyldithocarbamate(MoTDC), an antiwear additive added to some synth and dino "SL" motor oils. M1 SS does have it in their mix.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;- f=1;t=001967#000000

vinyljunkie

Thanks for the information and thanks for the link...

edwardn1

...with II giving 2.7% better fuel economy than a 20w30 reference oil. Never knew why 20w30 was used as the comparison. Anyway, was wondering if anyone knew what the fuel economy increase of the current energy conserving oils are, especially 10w30 which is what I use in a Camry and a 85 F150. If it saves enough fuel I may use it in an older car that uses a quart every 350 miles or so on 10w30 but lessens to "only" 500 or so miles to the quart with 20w50. It does seem to use more fuel with the 20w50 and the non computer controlled idle speed is less obviously due to the higher friction of the 20w50. What I'm trying to do is compare the fuel savings and slight horsepower increase of the 10w30 energy conserving oil with the benefit of lower oil consumption properties of the 20w50. Any input?

pulgo

I would say that the difference is in the range of 1 to 3%. I'm curious though as to why you would continue to drive a vehicle that is consuming almost 3 quarts per 1k miles? I know, it is cheaper to burn the oil than to rebuild the engine but, what do you think drivers behind you think when seeing all that smoke and smelling all that burnt oil?
How do you pass inspections where you live?

tboner

I would think the oil consumption is the bigger cost.

If you are comparing 500miles vs 350miles before adding a quart, that is roughly a 50% improvement in miles before you need to add a quart. Or when you look at it another way, you will add 1/3 less oil over a distance of 2000 miles. At 350 mile intervals you are looking at about 6 quarts at 500 mile intervals you are looking at 4 quarts.

Add in that oil is about $4/gallon (or more) while gasoline, even in the most expensive places in the US is half that price.

Finally, when you consider the difference in fuel economy is 1-3% for the average car that gets 20MPG you are only talking about 1-3 gallons over every 2000 miles...

So going with the oil that leaves the engine the slowest is probably the cheapest solution.

Plus, think if all the money you save on oil changes. Just change the filter, drain and strain the oil in the pan and run it back through 8^) as make up oil...

TB

bottgers

You can't base your decision on what type or brand of oil to buy today based on what an oil was like years ago. You have to look at what the oil's made of, and it's analysis results. Today, technology changes oil as frequently as people change their underwear. Every time you blink, technology has changed motor oil once again. Some of the statements I've read in here are ouright hillarious, especially the stuff about the Pennzoil. Today's Pennzoil is absolutely nothing like it was even just 10 years ago. Their 5W20 for example, is made up of 70% group III base stock. This means it's 70% synthetic. I doubt you'll find another dino as close to a full synthetic as the Penn is, and you certainly wouldn't have found one 10 years ago. The good ol' days of basing an oil choice on brand loyalty, or saying "I've always used brand X so I'll keep using it", are long gone. The only way to choose an oil these days is to stay on top of the what's new, and view as many oil analysis test results as you can find.

edwardn1

...I'm sure that my using Castrol GTX in my good engines for the last 36 years makes me an idiot from your viewpoint. So be it. But that DOES NOT CHANGE the fact that for a time long enough to create a reputation from coast to coast Pennzoil had a sludge "issue', and thank you I care not to leave a proven product for one I'll have to wonder about. Smokey Yunick once said in Pop Science where he had a syndicated column to pick a good brand and grade of oil and stick with it unless you have a really good reason to change. I guess I'll have the agree the NEW, IMPROVED, NO LONGER CAUSES SLUDGE formula gives cause for feelings of superiority for those that use it. I'll pass on the Pennz. As Scotty would say on "Star Trek", fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Pennzoil has already fooled me once and they will not see my money again, period.

joatmon

Castrol GTX is highly regarded in most circles. Pennzoil, Castrol GTX and Chevron seem to be the dino oil "darlings" at the moments. But, Castrol GTX has been a favorite for a long time. Good choice, so, why not stick with it?

Jack

bottgers

The sludge days for Pennzoil are gone and the proof is out there if you don't mind doing a little research. Saying you're not going to buy a certain brand of oil anymore because of the way it used to be is just limiting your choices.

armtdm

Just because my Volvo needed new bearings at 80,000 miles when Castrrol GTX was used exclusively every 3000 does not mean that it was the oils fault. I just happen to get a lemon!

edwardn1

...that pennzoil 'CLEANED UP THEIR ACT". As for me I'll continue to use GTX in my vehicles that already use it and I'll admit that my occasions to visit Bobs Board tend to back up what you say. Am I prejudiced against a product that gave me grief in the past? YES! I can't help it. It gooped up the inside of a Yamaha gearbox in the late 70s, but then I didn't know the reason, now I do. Back in the 80s when I did 'heavy' research on oils and had a chance to talk to some application engineers I came upon an issue concerning FALSE SEALS. If an engine uses a certain oil for a long time and the owner switches brands, occasionally oil leaks develop as deposits that naturally form are disturbed. Over time (much time) seals form again and if you switch back to the original oil the process starts all over. I have a tech bulletin from Quaker of all places that explains this, but I don't know how to post it. The crux of all this is not to mix or change brands unless you really have good reason. Of course this reasoning mostly applies to older cars, which is what I have. All of the 5w20 oils will be a semi synthetic in order to meet the tough specs placed on them, and they are really good oils, which I posted on the 5w20 oil board on this site. In fact if you look on that board you'll see I posted that the 5w20 PENNZOIL has a higher flame & flash point than the 5w30 PENNZOIL. I used pennz as an example as they are the largest seller. If I bought a new car I would "consider" using pennzoil in that application if I was overwhelmed with reasons to do so, but as the last time I bought GTX for my F150 and Camry in a 4 gal jug at Checker (CSK) it worked out to about 78c quart after rebate. I love it when this site picks up!

fleetwoodsimca

I agree with you. Oil company reputations are earned in the market place. When things go awry in product quality, the reputation goes down, and customers start migrating away. Like you, I developed an apprehension toward certain brands, and I tend to still stay away from them. There are plenty of substitutes! It's not like we owe any brand name our money, you know. And speaking of foolishment, oil analysis is it-- from a monetary point of view. Maybe the rare vehicle needs it for an exotic diagnosis, but analyzing oil is not SOP for all vehicles.

sequoiasoon

Has anybody tried the BG Products? My local Toyota dealer uses their stuff for in house services like Fuel injector cleaning and Tranny service. They put some of the BG Synchro Shift gear lube in my 5 speed and it stopped a light grind during high rpm upshift and when downshifting. They also used a fuel cleaner called 44K that made a BIG difference in performance. Website has some interesting info, just wondering how their 0W-30 Synthetic oil is? Also the MOA additive for conventional oil?

edwardn1

...how good will it be after the changeover of the Schreveport, La plant to Shell? And by the way, how good has Shell oil been lately?

fleetwoodsimca

Shell is certified for use in gasoline engines. That covers the facts. The arm wrestling on which oil is better than which is all that is left. We can get it over and done with in a couple more years if the thread doesn't fold first! »:o]

csandste

since it's a bottled oil at a good oil change price (under 11 bucks) and because Wal-Mart at least doesn't try to oversell services. Having said that, I feel that the present SuperTech, as well as the Equilon Shell/Texaco (probably the next SuperTech) are all behind at least three of the four best sellers--Pennzoil, Quaker State and Castrol. Might be as good as Valvoline. I think most SL oils do just fine with 4K changes. My last two changes were with Valvoline and Castrol-- the first six were all with SuperTech. Using any of these brands wouldn't bother me a bit.

I really don't worry about any major oil widely sold, but SuperTech is bottled which lessens the slight risk that some crooked manager is putting SA non-detergent oil into a bulk tank and making his brother the oil pirate rich on phony transactions. I've heard stories of counterfit oils and seen pictures of counterfit oil filters which even make Frams look good in comparison. At least Wallyworld totally controls their supply chain.

If you are in to self changes, I think that Advance Auto's house brand is probably Chevron/Havoline. Hell of a deal for under $1.

I seem to remember comments (maybe in the Consumer Reports oil issue of seven years back) that Shell varied a great deal depending on which part of the country you were in.

pluto5

Don't forget the five qt. jugs which make it easy to recyle. If you are in doubt about using S-T just change it one extra time/yr. for 6 bucks with an S-T filter and your worries will vanish. Spend the money on a good meal or something else you enjoy. Just my opinion.

malachy72

I find it hard to argue with that.

fleetwoodsimca

I spent an enjoyable time running some maintenance routines on a couple of my vehicles, including an oil and filter change on my wife's 2000 Mercury Villager. I used Shell oil which I bought from Advance Auto some time ago on sale. In this area, Advance advertises that Shell is the house brand of oil. I used a Castrol filter from my vast overpurchase from Kmart when they closed them out some time ago. The afterglow of satisfaction generated by the bargains well used is rather pleasurable (diagnosis not desired, thank you!). (:o]

tboner

Yes,

I just took inventory since i purchased 3 of the 5 quart jugs of Mobil1 at Wally World last night

24 Quarts of Mobil1 5W30
11 Quarts of Mobil1 10W30
3 Quarts of Mobil1 0W30
4 Quarts of Castrol GTX 5W30
4 Quarts of Valvoline Maxlife 10W30
4 Quarts of Shell Rotella 5W40 (should have sent them off with the Buick)

That should get me through the next year.

The SVT and MPV will require 24 quarts of the 5W30 Mobil1 over the next 12 months. That leaves 36 quarts to use in the 94 Geo Prizm. I figure 4 quarts every 5K miles, ans 25K/year, so that is another 20 quarts. (It doesn't seem to use any at 107K miles on the clock now.)

So I'm set. (And no, I don't want any diagnosis either.)

TB

fleetwoodsimca

I detect your good Karma...

csandste

"Advance advertises that Shell is the house brand of oil."

In Missouri the Advance house brand says "compare to Havoline". Staff told me it was identical to Chevron Havoline as confirmed on Bob's board. It's possible that Advance varies in different parts of the country or that Advance recently changed suppliers. Hopefully TO Chevron and away from Shell. Of course if the stuff is old Equilon production capacity it would be like both Shell AND (the old) Havoline. Since Shell has a lot of extra capacity, this is also a strong possibility. If this happened the Advance Auto Parts stuff would be identical to the suspected new supplier for SuperTech.

fleetwoodsimca

Let me get exacting, so that I can reduce the chances of false information! At the time I bought THAT case of Shell Motor Oil, SJ grade, Advance Auto was claiming Shell to be the house brand. I must admit I have not paid a lot of attention to that detail since then, and would not know if Advance has changed house brands again! When they were still Western Auto, I recall they used the Western Auto name on their house brand. »:o]

bottgers

What year is your MPV? We ordered an '03 that's due in late this month or early next month. I plan on using Pennzoil 5W-20 in our's.

tboner

Our is a 2000 model, and specifies 5W30 oil. There is that memo from Ford that says you can run 5W20 in the 2.5L Duratec (as well as a bunch of early 1990's engines) but I sleep better knowing I'm using the 5W30 weight.

So how goes it with getting out of the lease with a minimum hit to the wallet?

TB

csandste

I checked the bottle. It did say "compare to Havoline" and then stated that it was a trademark of Chevron. My assumption is that their agreement was with Texaco and that the contracts moved when the oil did.

bottgers

I think the '03 model calls for 5W-20. I'll sleep well at night knowing the Pennzoil is made of 70% group III base stock and contains moly.

I haven't had the inspection done on my soon to be turned in leased vehicle, but I'm estimating the turn in fee will be around $1500. This is probably less than what I'd lose if I bought it, then sold it out right.

fleetwoodsimca

Are you indirectly saying that Advance Auto Parts sells a house oil now that is brand-named "Advance," and that they are suggesting it may be the same formula as Havoline? That would be very good oil.

csandste

Quite a good deal for 80+ cents...

fleetwoodsimca

By the time I run short on Chevron/Havoline, Advance will probably have moved on to yet another supplier, and I sure like the Havoline name on my quarts. I picked up many cases of Chevron and of Havoline as cheap as 69 cents a quart from CSK over a period of several months. I am NOT confusing Equilon with the new stuff, either. It's the latest SL product. It will be superseded before I get through the reserves. I am actually still using up some "tail end" SJ Shell, as it is. »;o]

bluedevils

I picked up about 20 quarts of Havoline for 68 cents a quart at Target. They were clearancing them. Good price! Target now seems to carry fewer brands of oil. My local store still has Mobil 1 SuperSyn for $3.38 (!) a quart.

fleetwoodsimca

In this area, Advance now has their own name on the house brand oil. They still have Shell, but in less prominence in the display. I picked up a case of 30wt SL Shell to use in my small engine implements (Tecumseh/Briggs and Stratton/etc.).

ateixeira

Target also stopped selling oil filters. They had the Car & Driver brand name but were actually made by Champion Labs. Read that in that oil filter study that was circulated a while back.

I scored big time. Just when they had the final clearance, I picked up about a dozen for 25 cents each! I bought every one that fit any of my 3 cars, actually. Still have 8 left. :-)

-juice

benson10

Thanks for the oil education. My 2001 Ford Windstar calls for 5W-20. Why is that? And what would the impact be of using 10W30 or 5W-30? Standing by for your expert answers.

krzyss

Do search. There was/is forum about 5W20.

Krzys

treeman8

I wonder if the house brands really are exaxtly the same oil as the name brand.

My NAPA dealer said their oil was Valvoline oil. When I called Valvoline, the tech. person said that Ashland/Valvoline did make NAPA's oil, but that the NAPA stuff had a "less robust" additive package.

I wonder what the real truth is.

nutpolish

I've got a new car (Audi A4) and need to put in a little oil. Should I use synthetic or wait to do a full oil change before I introduce syn. to the mix?

fleetwoodsimca

Consider the API certification and the SAE rated weight, and ISO category of Valvoline and NAPA oils. I am inclined to consider the two as interchangeable. I would guess that the Valvoline representative would like to at least imply that Valvoline is the real thing, while NAPA is a close relative. I am betting that the difference (if there is any) is so slight that it makes no functional difference at all between the two labels. My NAPA connection tells me that the two are identical.

A lot of debate concerning the Havoline brand name has come up in this forum in the past. I stumbled over an address that has interesting information for those curious about what is what in the Havoline world!
http://www.havoline.com/products/na/faq.html

matthew525

Well my parents own and operate two NAPA stores - - ever buy generic drugs vice the named labels. As long as the dino stuff is API cert and has the correct SAE rating for your wheels your good to go.

armtdm

Per Matthew:
As long as the dino stuff is API cert and has the correct SAE rating for your wheels your
good to go.

No doubt about it. IMO as long as you also don't go over 3000 miles. There are huge differences in the additive packages out there. All will go 3000 but how many API certified will go 7500. That is where brand, weight and other factors come in. If you change every 3000 it makes no difference what you use.

matthew525

No argument here. Used dino for years. However, just bought two new autos (Matrix for me; Avy for the wife) and I'm switching to Mobil 1 at first service = 3500 miles +/-. Buying the best filters on the market and will still will change M1 around 5k of use.

wain

have you looked at the pressure drop on M1?
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;- f=6;t=000513;p=1

armtdm

I don't use Mobil 1 filters. I am slowly migrating to K&N for the flow. I am a pretty firm believer that the oil does all the work today and filters are pretty useless. I have been using the Amsoil for years, pretty close to K&N for flow according to Bob's test. Mobil more expensive and flow is much lower.

It is amazing how the same oil can do very well in some engiens and not as well in others. I can go 12,000 miles on one car but barely 5000 on another as it just beats up the oil, well, driving habits are part of that difference. One can rarely go wrong with shorter change intervals.

68torino

From what I have learned about motor oil is this. The first number is what 'weight' or viscosity the oil is. The second number means the oil will not be or act thinner than that number at operating temps or I think 185 degrees. So a 5w30 is a 5 'weight' oil that won't get thinner than a 30 weight oil at 185. When your owners manual calls for a 5 weight oil that means the engine clearences are set for that thin of an oil. If there is to extreme of a spread in number ie 10w40 the oil makers add polymers to the oil to keep it from breaking down which can contribute to rings sticking and eventually wear and oil consumption.

benbess

Apparently for 2003 Honda is recommending 10k oil change intervals under "normal" use for their 4 cylinder Accords and Civics. That seems way too long, but they must be basing their recommendation on something. Are engines and oils really that much better than they were 20 years ago when a 3k oil change interval was the norm? What scientific evidence do you think Honda is basing this on?