Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

mkilshot

I am new to this site. Need an advice on oil change frequency, oil type, filter type. Driving '98 4Runner 70K odo, appr.7K/yr. Most likely will keep my truck until it dies. Short trips (3-5 mi.)most of the week, no traffic, and occasional long hwy trips. Live in Houston, so weather is hot and humid most of a year; hardly ever below 30. No hills, no towing or heavy loads. I wonder, if I could change oil yearly. Cost of oil/filter is not a main consideration, but time is, as I always do it myself. Currently I change oil twice a year, with hardly any oil loss. Appreciate any feedback. Please, consider me a novice on a subject with ability to learn quickly.

armtdm

Here is what I do. If you warm that engine up 75% of the time so that the oil is at operating temp (not necesarily the coolant temp, takes longer for the oil) then I say if you drive 12,000 miles/year or less you can do it. You will need to use synthetic like Mobil 1 and maybe a filter change at 6 months but I don't feel that is needed myself. I go one year changes on two cars and 12,000 mile changes on another and the oil analysis results are fine. Assuming that you currently have a well operating and clean engine I would go for it

mkilshot

Seems reasonable. My only concern is Toyota engine. There are quite a few comments on Toyotas being rough on oil. I have not noticed any thikenning of used oil (so far used only convent. oil, 10w-40). BTW, which M1 oil would be ideal for hot and humid climate? The manual calls for 10w-30(or 40), but I've read that this type is less stable. Is it different for synthetics? One other thing. What do you think about those additives that supposed to clean an engine. The ones added right before draining and run for 5 min.? Are they safe? Do they help?

armtdm

I have a 92 Camry that I change out at 7500 intervals. The harsh solvent cleaners that say to let idle for 15-30 minutes or so seem to work but I don't like them, very hard on the engine IMO. If operating well why even consider one? My 92 calls for 10W30 and I still use that at 159,000 miles. Only issue I have now are a few seal seepages but even those are minimal, a quart in 7500 miles.

I have used the Auto RX which actually does seem to work and it is run over 1500 miles and a very gentle but effective cleaner. I have also used a product made by Schaeffer Oil called Neutra for 500 miles before an oil change, it works well also.

However, if it ain't broke don't mess with it!

mkilshot

Thanks again. 159K is convincing enough for me. I thought I would clean the engine before switching to syn. oil. But then, you are right. It will eventually clean itself anyway.

dwbehrens

I use Mobil 1 Synthetic oil in all five of my Toyota vehicles. Oil changes are at 10,000 mile intervals, with oil filters changed every 5,000 miles. It keeps it simple to remember.

I put Mobil 1 gear oil (75W-80) in differentials (non limited slip type), transfer cases, and manual transmissions when new, and change it every 100,000 miles thereafter.

While I'm under the vehicle changing the motor oil every 10,000 miles, I slide the drain pan over and change the automatic trans fluid too, using the drain plug found on all Toyota trans pans. Since the torque converter is not drained, refill is only 25% to 40% of full trans fluid capacity (usually 2.5 to 3.5 quarts). I drop the pan and clean it every 40,000 to 50,000 miles, replacing the pan gasket and carefully cleaning the filter. I don't use synthetic trans fluid, but adhere to Toyota's recommendation for use of Type T-IV fluid in the tranmissions that require it. I pay $3.00/quart for T-IV fluid, buying it in case quantities from a dealer. I feel the average $10.00 for 10,000 miles is cheap insurance for reliable trans operation.

Don't forget to bleed the brakes until clear fluid is seen, starting with the brake cylinder furthest from the master cylinder. I do this when I change the radiator fluid every year in October. Sucking out the power steering reservoir with a turkey baster I stole from my wife, and replacing the fluid finishes my autumn ritual.

gsleve

Well I do admire you're dilegence in performing these fluid changes which apppears to be on an annual basis, I have to agree with the tranny fluid changes if I were using dino fluid I too would change it either 1yr/15k this is cheap insurance for those who choose not to spend the money for synthetic, however changing fluids annually will for a certainty extend the longevity of the vehicle intended service life and averting issues later on, I applaud you for taking the time to do so, in the final analysis the yields will be far greater in time, annual changes of dino fluids (excluding motor oil) which in terms of money really amount to little being spent is great insurance, I believe if car owner annually change their fluids (excluding synthetics) less mechanical problems would surface.

vidtech

my91 mercury manual states to use a gear oil meeting specification esp-m2c154-a in the standard differential.all i see is specs GL-4 and GL-5.does anyone know which one i should use?

ethomas4

The best I've ever used at any price is the Lubegard Flush. It's only $ 7.00 at NAPA's and really works well. No need for a short oil interval after use and it's not a solvent .
No affiliation but check it out at
www.lubegard.com

An interesting yet secret chemistry .

BTW , my local NAPA did not stock it so I bought it direct in a case of 10 bottles for 66.00 If I remember correctly ...good stuff !No kidding and again , no affiliation !

dustyk

Anybody have information on what's in this stuff? It's been around for years (1920s) and use to be well though of when I was much younger. Judging from the marketing hype I have my suspicions, but it appears to be a proprietary recipe. I can find to technical information on the chemical make-up.

Anybody know?

Regards,
Dusty

malachy72

is here:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;- f=11;t=000081

wtd44

It has been many months since I have posted, and this information may have been noted previously; but just in case it is helpful, I discovered today that Walmart is now selling a Supertech oil filter numbered ST7317. This is the more-than-welcome addition to their line that has an appropriate casing size for the Nissan 3.3 liter v6 engine-- no more making do with the tiny ST6607.
  I see that the old oil filter topic has been rendered read only, so I posted this here.

dustyk

Thank you!

Yeah, I was suspicious. Rislone use to be red in color, now its a bluish. I do agree with the one post about it being effective with a noisy lifter scenario (small block Chevies), I've seen it work but I have also seen it not work. That isn't necessarily scientific, though, since there are more than one cause of lifter noise.

I noticed that the current Rislone advertising makes the point of improving oil flow with a secondary cleaning effect. If it lowers viscosity then it will automatically improve flow.

I think the chemical additive analysis speaks for itself, however.

Thanks again for providing the source.

Best regards,
Dusty

malachy72

Anytime!

markus5

It appears that we have some people here with technical experience who post on this discussion.
The question is about the fluid (oils) that are used to lubricate the K&N Air filter. I some- times find a little bit of oil residue on the air filter houseing when it is removed for cleaning Is there a possibility that they could damage the Mass air flow sensor or thottle body assembly in My 95 EXplorer. I have been using the K&N for about 2 years or so at this point. I have probably recovered my original investment in it about $30. as it has been cleaned and replaced 3 times. But these oil residues concern me and I cannot say for sure that engine performance is being improved with the manufacturers claim of improved breathing.

opera_house_wk

Most of these filters are over oiled. That oil does make it to the mass airflow sensor and coats the elements which then collect dust. The airflow sensor works by passing a current through a wire that heats up. This wire has a dramatic change in resistance. By monitoring how much current is needed to heat the wire, the airflow is calculated. A dust coating insulstes this wire and changes the calibration. We are not talking about dripping oil, these are microscopic layers. If you have never cleaned it, you are due. It might also be worth disconnecting the battery to force the computer to relearn a cleaned sensor.

joe3891

Havoline 5W-30 i found the other day and when i poured some out it dark in color,the new Havoline 5W-30 is very light in color,whats changed?

dustyk

OperaHouse has described the effects of air filter oil in the air stream pretty well. Yes, this can and probably does affect the Mass Air Flow Sensors and for that reason alone I myself wouldn't use one. And I know someone that has just had this problem that had to be repaired.

The air induction systems used on today's automobiles are engineered at a very high level of precision. Factory systems must be designed to provide a high level of efficiency across a broad range of operating RPM, help meet emissions standards, as well as not hinder the production of power or reduction in performance and keeping sound levels as low as possible. It's not just a throttlebody, intake manifold, and a air cleaner housing. It's truly a system developed where all components affect the overall performance.

I'm sure that reducing any resistance in the system that impedes air flow can result in some type of performance gain, and this is what most of the "high performance" air filter elements do. In the case of oiled air filter elements, a more porous filter is used to reduce flow resistance. The oil is used to attract dust and dirt particles to the strands that make up the filter.

There are a few problems with the oiled filter elements. The oils used are of very high viscosity and lose their tackiness as the temperatures drops, lowering the trapping efficiency considerably. Over time and in warmer temperatures the oil will eventually flow out of the filter also lowering the trapping efficiency. Dissipated oil from the filter will eventually coat the entire air stream areas of the induction system and will collect dust and dirt particles that pass through the filter. The case of a contaminated Mass Air Flow Sensor is merely an example collateral damage.

I know there have been various claims about performance improvements with these oiled filters, but I seriously doubt any significant gains. Reducing air flow resistance by 2% is not going to equate to a 2% HP increase. I don't believe that they provide any decrease in fuel consumption on modern fuel injected systems, but I know others believe that it does.

Just my opinion.

Best regards,
Dusty

Mr_Shiftright

What I've read suggested that an engine more likely to benefit would be a large displacement block at rather high rpms.

markus5

While the engine seems be running well but perhaps not optimally ,( 95 Explorer 140K). Is there anything that might be done now to eliminate possible "collateral damage". I did not Know that these sensors could be cleaned. How about BG Induction system clean-up ?

dustyk

Shiftright, I think you will find that as engine displacement is increased the effects of decreased air flow resistance in a modern big-block will be no different than a lower displacement engine. Newer designs are built around the engine requirements. However, ten years ago I think that was true, but only because the inductions systems of that era were not designed with the sophistication of today's systems.

Markus, well since most common fuel system solvents (like Gumout Carb Cleaner) don't seem to hurt the sensors, I would speculate that you could spray some solvent into the throttlebody to try to clean-up the interior of the intake manifold and intake valve areas.

Being cautious, though, I would ask a few technicians or even consult a solvent company and see what they say. I will say that an acquaintance just went through this and they had to replace the Mass Air Flow Sensor on his. Now whether it was required, economically a better option, or whether the dealer just wanted to sell him a more expensive repair I honestly couldn't say.

Let us know how you make out.

Best regards,
Dusty

micweb

chbost

On 12/05/2003 I brought my 2000 Toyota Corolla to the Toyota dealership for oil change. The mileage was 20593 miles.
IAfter the oil change I drove the car back to home and parked it. After 2 hours I drove to the local store. On the way home we noticed that the oil warning light turned red, and I heard clicking sound from the engine. We pulled over. I noticed an oil leak under the car then we checked the oil level dipstick, which was totally dry. A closer look showed that the oil drain plug was missing. As it was late I took the car to the dealer the next day.
What my options are. Should I request a new engine?

wtd44

I fear that the dealer will remind you that you did not immediately take the car out of service the moment you discovered the plug missing, and will attempt to force you to share the blame and thus the expenses.

bluedevils

Don't let the dealer try to blame you in any way for this situation. This was their fault, and they need to acknowledge the mistake and make it right. Sure, you shouldn't have kept driving, but you also had every right to assume the drain plug was installed. It wasn't, and that's why your vehicle has issues.

armtdm

Assuming it runs fine after the oil refill get them to run a full range of tests on it, compression etc. and mandate a "free" extended warranty to 100,000 miles to account for their error.

csandste

The brand used to be tied to Equilon (Shell-Texaco), now it's Chevron. The Chevron is generally thought to be the better oil.

Mr_Shiftright

The missing drain plug is a multiple post so let's discuss it in the Oil Change/Fiascos department, not here, okay?

thanks

Host

guskim

Just yesterday, I e-mailed Exxon Mobil, and asked them what was the best Mobil1 oil for my Mazda3 Sport (which in North America specifies 5-20).

Today he replied, and said 0-20 was the appropriate oil for it, not 5-30 or 0-30.

So I will use 0-20 on the car. The only time I can think of switch to something heavier is when I have to take a long-cross country trip in hot weather during the summer.

newcar31

I have a 2003 Mazda6 with the 2.3L 4 cyl. The oil filter is an internal canister type. I found this link on the Mazda6 page and it looks like I could change to a spin on type filter:

http://gcubed.sytes.net/gcubed/oilfilter.pdf

I would really like to change to a spin on style filter but I am concerned that besides the oil filter type, there might be something else that's different too.

Why do automakers still use these internal oil filters? Is there some advantage, or are they just a pain in the butt?

micweb

Naw, they aren't a pain in the butt. They use them on the Cavalier and on all future GM vehicles with the Ecotec 2.2 series engine - including Saabs.

They are well designed these days, easy to put in.

The advantages are:

The oil drains out from the top, so you get a more complete oil drain.

There is less oil spill than with a spin-on type.

You can visually inspect the filter pleats when you put it on (what quality? visual confirmation) and again when you take it out (how did it hold up, what build up, if any, on the filter).

There is less likelihood of putting a filter back on top of a gasket that stuck on the motor body from the last filter.

There is less "waste" of cannister materials.

Disadvantages are:

Oil shops just coming up to speed - some charge a slight premium for this filter.

Prejudice based on 1940's internal filters.

newcar31

I still want to try and change my Mazda over to a spin-on type filter. I changed oil for a living for years in high school and college and I never understood why automakers use those filters besides making more money on them. You'd think they'd be cheaper than the spin-ons, but they're usually more expensive.

In my case, I have to go to the dealer for the filter, and I also have to buy two way overpriced rubber O-rings. Mazda says you have to replace the O-rings everytime, and I believe them, because I didn't do it once, and I made a huge mess in my garage. I'd rather just have a spin-on considering they would both drain the same and spill the same because they would both be vertically mounted, but the spin-on is easier to change.

Do you think there's something else different with my engine related to the internal filter, or can I just swap to a spin-on without worries?

micweb

It's your choice, of course, but I'd rather pay admittedly expensive prices ($40?) at the dealer for an "official" oil change at the maximum recommended interval (7,500 miles?) during the warranty period, and forego any engine modifications, including oil filter change over mechanisms, until after the warranty runs out. Problems are most likely to occur during the warranty period, and the manufacturer is most likely to decline a claim if they think something funny was going on (nitrous, cold air intakes, etc., might not be the actual cause of failure, but point to a "harsh driving environment").

Toyota was actually rejecting oil sludge claims from people who had Jiffy Lube receipts to prove they really had done the required oil changes with the proper weight and grade of oil. I guess their thinking (and they are one of the more reliable makers) was that a new car dealer wouldn't "fake" receipts or use the wrong grade of oil, but as a manufacturer they had no control over an independent oil change shop and no incentive to cover their mistakes or failings, which might have been (i)pretending to do, but not doing, oil changes; or (ii) using low grade, instead of spec, oil from their "bulk pumps."

Now the law in America says the manufacturer has to allow the use of parts by independents, like oils and filters and other supplies, but the reality is the manufacture will stand by their own brand of oil and filters, but point a finger back at the independent if its not clear if the engine or the oil was the cause of the problem.

That having been said, I don't use the car manufacturer's oil or filter in my own vehicles, and based on lousy, overpriced dealer service don't always take my cars back to the dealers, although they are still in warranty, except for required major services which could void the warranty.

But, what you are proposing sounds a little further out there than usual. Are you sure it's worth it?

newcar31

I plan on keeping the car for while, and since I do all of the oil changes because I don't trust anybody, I figured I'd make it easier on myself as long as it doesn't affect anything negatively. Did you look at my link? It appears to be a pretty straightforward swap:

http://gcubed.sytes.net/gcubed/oilfilter.pdf

div2

I agree, the way the Mazda canister filter is mounted is inconvenient. I prefer the way they are mounted on my two cars; the canister lid unscrews from the top of the assembly. OEM filter costs are low as well-less than $6-and that price includes all needed o-rings as well as a copper washer for the drain plug. If you use an oil extractor there's no need to crawl under the car at all. Oil spillage is so small that you can just about perform the whole operation in a business suit.

micweb

My cannister filter (Cavalier) is top accessible and easier to change than an underbody spin on type. Yours looks like the worst of both worlds. Why not get the dealer to make the parts change (this doesn't look like an aftermarket part - it just looks like Mazda has two different oil filter systems out in the marketplace). I can understand your frustration more.

rhmass

I took your advice earlier on the BMW board and purchased an oil extractor for the job. It worked well for our 325i and in fact I even used it to replace the power steering fluid (ATF for BMWs). However, the other day when my son came home with his 98' 318ti, I looked at the oil filter housing, it appeared somewhat different in that there was no screw on top of the lid as it has on the 325 model. What tool do you use to take the cover off? Is the oil filter housing between the 325 and the 318ti different? Please help. Thanks.

isellhondas

So now, we are going back to cannister filters?

I still have my old suction gun somewhere...may need to dust it off!

wtd44

No need for the suction gun to do what I suspect you are assuming. The modern version cannister, as seen in the Saturn/GM 4 cylinder mentioned earlier, is configured to be self draining when the owners manual instructions are followed. First, remove the pan bolt and drain the pan. Then remove the cover to the cannister chamber, and lift out the used filter and let the last drops fall into the chamber or a rag you might hold in your free hand. The oil drains from the chamber, apparently. There is certainly no full chamber requiring pumping. It is fast, easy, and clean. You have to experience it to really believe it. >:^)

isellhondas

Of the return to the cannisters. It doesn't sound like they are very widespread at least for now.

Hmmm...I think I've got my Model A crank somewhere in the garage...

joatmon

I change the oil and filter on my 530 and X5 topside with an oil extractor. The filter elements are top quality. I like being able to see the element. After using this system, I can't believe that everyone isn't using the same or similar method.

YMMV,

Jack

newcar31

Is the cover on the canister plastic? Are they topside?

I agree that the BMW canister filters aren't that bad, at least on the I6's that I've done. Must be nice to have an oil extractor and not ever have to go underneath the car to change the oil.

The Mazda6i filter is underneath the car, so you need ramps or jack stands, and you have to take off a plastic shroud attached by 8 fasteners to get at it.

The Mazda version of the 2.3L has a plastic oil filter canister cover (plastic intake manifold too). Seems pretty sturdy now, but I wonder if it'll get brittle from the constant heat/cold?

div2

Sorry to be so late getting back to you. BMW switched to the plastic cap in late 1995(my 10/95 build date ti has it). You use an "end cap" style oil filter wrench to remove it. Here's some helpful information from Ron Stygar's page:
http://www.unofficialbmw.com/e36/engine/e36_97_ti_oil_change.html In my case, I simply went to my local auto parts shop where they let me try the various wrench sizes until I found one that fit. As Ron notes, the BMW filter element comes with three O-rings as well as a drain plug washer. Once you remove the cap the location of the three O-rings will be obvious. Funny thing, my "Oil Service" light came on right before Christmas. I wanted to take the ti on a 200 mile road trip right after New Year's Day, but weather as well as other obligations kept me from changing the oil. As it turned out, I ended up with an unforseen 45 minute "window of opportunity" on New Year's Eve(right before a dinner party). The problem was, I had just driven the car, and the oil was too hot to use the extractor. I wound up jacking up the car just high enough to shove a 3" tall rubber driveway "stop bumper" under the RF tire. After lowering the jack I had just enough room to slide under the air dam and loosen the drain plug. While I was lying there in the gathering darkness, feeling around for the drain plug, Sylvester(div jr.'s demonic bipolar cat) crawled under the car unseen and stuck his nose into my ear. I jumped and nearly knocked myself out by banging my forehead into the steering rack. In any event, it all worked out-in 35 minutes I had the sump filled with 5.25 quarts of M1 15W-50 and the SI lights reset. Ahhhh, the pleasures of DIY auto maintenance...

rhmass

Appreciate your explanation as well as the link to the detailed description of the oil changing process. Also enjoyed the story of your recent encounter with the cat while doing the quick oil change "in the dark". Hope you didn't get a visible bump on your head as the result!:-)
Thanks.

joatmon

there is only 1 o-ring. Also, you use a 36mm socket to remove the top cover from the canister. The i-6 has the oil filter housing attached to the front of the block, and it's very easy to remove the canister top. The v-8 has it mounted in the left front fender area and you have to hold the housing when removing the canister top to insure that you don't tear the entire caniter loose from its mounting.

I've been changing oil for close to 40 years and this is by far the best setup I've seen. I can change oil without getting into "work clothes".

Happy Motoring,

Jack

sgrd0q

I found an interesting article - http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182902-1.html -
it is about piston airplane engines (Continental and Lycoming). The sections about "How Cylinders Wear Out" and "Ultra-Low Oil Consumption" are quite interesting.

div2

I thought I was going to have to spend some serious $$$ on a six point 36mm socket for my wife's 528i, but instead I found an off-brand36mm socket at my local parts shop. I think it was called an "Import Axle Nut Socket".
Cheap, too-less than $5.00 if I recall. Anyway, I didn't require Snap-On quality, since the canister top tightening torque is only 18 lb.ft.(25Nm).

joatmon

I use Craftsman or my favorite, SK-Facom.

wtd44

A major "beauty" to the (2003 4 cylinder) GM/Saturn canister chamber is that it appears to be a part of the casting from which it projects; topside, out-front on the transverse engine-- right where you can get at it cleanly. The very hard plastic cap can be loosened with a socket or an end cap filter wrench. When you lift off the cap, the cartridge filter comes with it, being suspended by a rubber ring that snugs it into the cap. Once you have the cap/cartridge combo in the clear, they pull apart easily. Press a clean cartridge into the cap... voila!

roper2

What is ones opinion about Valvoline 5/30 dura blend.I have a 4.7 about 41000 on it and change the oil @ filter every 4000 with wix filter.Would going past 4000 be very safe? thanks