Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

mikewinlds · November 2004

Here's another newbie question:

I always change my car's oil when it's more or less 3,000 miles after the last oil change, but is it also true about how you should change it every 3 months or 3,000 miles, whichever comes first? What happens to the oil if you don't use the car (but it's just sitting there for 3 months, or you don't drive 3,000 miles within that 3-month period of time) that makes the oil go bad?

wtd44 · November 2004

I prefer to change oil every 3K miles or at least once per year, which ever comes first. This schedule works well for me. You should consider going backward in this discussion topic. You can review old posts from way back and gain a lot of information that way.

bottgers · November 2004

As much overkill as the 3K mile change schedule is, the 3 month thing is even more ridiculous. Once a year would be plenty if you don't exceed the mileage change interval during that time period.

After reading literally thousands of posts, including oil analysis results listed in many oil related forums, I'm totally convinced you could change your oil and filter every 3K miles, using even the cheapest oil and filter you can find, and never have any oil related problems.

wtd44 · November 2004

I pretty much agree, but there are some poor enough oil choices, and filters perhaps, to force me to say that the oil and filter selected must meet the automobile manufacturer's requirements to assure safe usage.

bottgers · November 2004

There's only one brand of filter I wouldn't consider using and that's Fram (and any of those off name brands made by Fram). As far as I know, there are no oil brands that don't meet manufacturer's specs as long as the proper weight is being used. Even the store brand .69 a quart oils are good for 3K miles. I personally don't use these products because I like going 5K-6K between changes. To do this, you have to be more picky about which oil and filter you use.

isellhondas · November 2004

Fram is a HUGE oil filter producer who is capable of making any quality of oil filter asked for.

And they do this. They make cheap, poor quality filters for the customers who care only about price. They also build top quality "to spec" filters for others.

It's the orange ones at Wal-Mart and other places I wouldn't use.

bottgers · November 2004

An independant lab did studies on a bunch of the popluar brands of oil filters. They tested 3 different Fram filters and recommended that you stay away from 2 of the 3 filters. They determined that with the basic filter (the orange one) and the most expensive one (called Tough Guard), the paper filter element would separate from the canister and at least would not provide any filtering, or at worst could flow into the oil system and cause engine damage. The only Fram filter they would even consider using was the medium priced one, called Extra Guard. I would recommend avoiding the situation altogether and just go with a Puralator PureOne. They're only about $5 and are some of the best filters made.

pulgo · November 2004

How come there are no lawsuits against Fram out there regarding failing oil filters? Considering everybody is bashing them there ought to be plenty of ruined engines by now. I'm using PureOne's too but its just because a buddy of mine has a parts store and I get them at cost.

By the way, which "independent lab" did these tests?

wtd44 · November 2004

Maybe about a year ago, but however long it was, Fram was merged into another corporation. I have heard that the current crop of Fram filters are on par, and are no longer really suspect. Unfortunately for Fram, the sullied reputation among gearheads lingers. But, then, there are far more filter buyers that are unaware of any failings in the past, and many that could care less. I believe Fram remains the best selling brand name in automotive oil filters, regardless. The only thing that ever stops me from buying Fram filters now is the circumstance in which I am able to buy another brand of fully adequate filter at a lower price. In my locale, that is usually the case.

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

The reason is that the "evidence" is anecdotal. By that term I mean "not subjected to rigorous and impartial scientific testing".

If you can't get solid test results you have little basis for claiming such a thing, only "suspicions" or "experiences", all of which may in fact, be true, but aren't provable.

badgerfan · December 2004

I have been using "cheap" Fram filters on our 1996 Caravan, now at 79K miles for all its life, and engine runs fine and uses no oil. However, I do change oil (myself) every 3K, so probably the oil doesn't get contaminated all that much anyway, with the frequent changes I do. I only spend about $8 per change for oil and filters, so I still haven't spent much overall for oil changes.

wtd44 · December 2004

Of course, there are other inexpensive choices out there that will provide fully adequate filtration and meet manufacturer's specifications. I sincerely suspect that Fram filters are perfectly okay at this point in time. My latest attraction is to buy Purolator again. I circulate around the available brands that offer good buys (sale prices when possible) and meet the requirements of the target vehicle.

armtdm · December 2004

they don't really fail, just poor construction but the primary reason they are the best seller is price. The AMerican public only cares about price, especailly when it comes to oil and filters, they believe they are all the same. However, if you change every 3000 miles you could leave the filter off and it would not make any difference in the engine longevity. Yes, many many better filters out there then fram for the same price. Also, they are the prominent display at most Wal Marts, Auto zones, advance autos etc. Powerful marketing budget.

Like Lawn Boy and Electo Lux the name in the past meant quality, the new owners over the years became only interested in profits, not quality

crankshaft · December 2004

i believe the statement regarding the oil filter being irrelevant during the first 3000 miles on an oil change is pure bunk.there will always be small materials which wear off the mechanical parts.it cannot be avoided.i would rather have an oil filter remove these than let them circulate with the oil.let's not second guess the engineers on this one.

badgerfan · December 2004

It seems to me you are second guessing the engineers that design Fram oil filters!

So, it kind of comes down to whose engineers do you want to second guess?

Even the OEM filters are subject to cost reduction. OEM does not necessarily mean the best, in many instances.

bottgers · December 2004

It's all about "warm fuzzies." Personally, Fram filters don't give that "warm fuzzy" whereas Puralators do. I'll stick with my PureOnes.

77hchbck · December 2004

Just when I've gotten use to SL 5w20/5w30 for my Accord, now the SM is hitting the shelves. Better base oil ??? Better additives ??? or just longer Cat converter life/better emissions. What's your opinion?

And now the OEM Honda filters are as large as a thimble.

A2me

opera_house_wk · December 2004

Hadn't heard that. What is that, about three years later than they had originally planned to implement it. If it has reduced zinc and phosphates, I wonder how good it is for older vehicles.

77hchbck · December 2004

The reduction in zinc and phosphates happened with the SL. I haven't read if they will be lessened further with the SM.

wtd44 · December 2004

Isn't there a website that gives explanation for the new SM perhaps in a chart format, versus the prior designations such as SL, SJ, SG, etc.?

opera_house_wk · December 2004

SL was a little. My understanding was the next change would be large enough to allow the cat size to be reduced in half with the same expected life. This would be a major cost reduction to the manufacturers as the cost of platinum and other catalysts continue to rise. The problem is how to do this without increased wear. There will always be times when an engine is metal on metal.

ecotrklvr · February 2005

No need to guess about oil filters - check out http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html

A heck of a fine effort. Hat's off to him. This guy wondered about the same things we all wonder about, and did something about it. He spent the dough, bought a lot of different filters, and dissected them. Lots of photos and information. Some of the info may be out of date, but the main issues of filtering area, filtering media, number of pleats, drainback valve design, gasket material, etc. don't change. Lots to know about oil filters. The point is that there is info out there. Race car engine builders need to know this stuff, and they take the time and money to find out.

I stopped buying a certain brand of filter some time ago, based on this and other info gathered off the web. And it ain't about second guessing Engineers - Brand X's Engineers work for the Corporation, and the Engineering Department doesn't tell WalMart's Purchasing Department how expensive a filter has to be to do a good job - WalMart's Purchasing Department tells Brand X's Salespeople how much they'll pay. Engineering then can design to this price point, and we see the result.

Hypothetically, if your engine did happen to fail prematurely (or even suddenly) due to a bad oil filter, how would you know? And if you could figure it out, to your satisfaction, could you prove it in court?

tornadoman · February 2005

I was reading a bit about Fram filters, and well, I can agree with most of you. First, I have bought filters from Fram, Motorcraft, AC, Wix and Casite, and the former Deutch brand. and purolator. Fram was the filter I questioned. Unlike the others, It had cardboard endcaps, unlike metal like the others. Motorcraft and Purolator were Identical inside. AC at the time was made by another company (back when the box said AC, not ACdelco. In my own findings, I would go with Wix or the Purolator/motorcraft type of filter.

altair4 · February 2005

The only qualm I have with these websites is there is the possibility that a company could either improve or worsen over time. These sites aren't updated or even dated, in some cases. You have no idea what the current product market is.

wtd44 · February 2005

Few on those sites are scientific, in all reality. There is a lot more to filter structure and media than looking at it after cutting it open in the garage.

ecotrklvr · February 2005

Hey all - I just saw a good post on Toyota Tacoma 2005+ concerning K&N air filter.

It's post #1539. An eye opener.

div2 · February 2005

A friend of mine develops software and other performance parts for BMWs and he also has a negative opinion of K&N air filters. When I bought my used Wrangler it was fitted with a K&N filter-which I promptly trashed in favor of an OEM element.

highroller · February 2005

Can someone help me out on this: I've been using conventional oil ever since i bought my car 2 years ago. It's a 1997 honda accord with 127k miles on it. Would it be okay to switch to a synthetic brand like mobile 1? And if not, what would you recommend to be the best choice on a petroleum based motor oil? Thanks for the help.

bottgers · February 2005

Just a few months ago I was able to get Havoline dino for around $1.19 a qt, now I can't find it for less than about $1.59 a qt. I also noticed the price of all brands has gone up at all the stores I've been to, and some dinos are over $2 a qt now. This is getting ridiculous! What is causing such a big increase in prices recently?

rhiebert · February 2005

Without getting too technical, my opinion on that it's a toss-up between Mobile 1 and Castrol GTX but that depends on which catagory you want to have the best numbers. All good engine oils have a synthetic additive package to meet the SAE's and API's. The farther away you get from dyno based oil, the better off you'll be.

highroller · February 2005

Thnx for the advice rhiebert. I've decided to go with mobil 1 10W-30 with supersyn for right now. Although, it seems that there is a very,very small (about a dime size)oil leakage coming from my engine since i last checked for any kind of leaks. Does anyone know if using synthetic for the first time esp. with my 125k mileage and with the small oil leakage would be okay? I've heard rumors that syn can cause leaks to open and increase more leaks. Thanks for the help.

wtd44 · February 2005

Is the new SM grade of oil considered to "backwash" over SL clear back to SG? I am wondering if it can be trusted in wet sump engines on motorcycles. Any opinions?

ktnr · February 2005

What difference does wet sump or dry sump make? I think perhaps you meant "wet clutch" as that's usually the big issue with motorcycle oil (along with air vs water cooling). Even then, you're questioning how the friction reducers in a particular additive package interact with the clutch material/plates in the short-term.

In the long-term, the other motorcycle oil question is how well the polymer chains resist shear in the transmission.

Motorcycle oil is a far more complex issue than automotive oil. I'm doubtful of the validity of qualifying an entire grade of oil when there are so many variables.

wtd44 · February 2005

I presume that the label on SM oil declares an acceptable substitution status for several previous grades (and possibly all previous grades) when used in automobile engines. I really need to get by one of the local auto parts stores and read some labels. It is possible to cautiously use some non-motorcycle-specific motor oils in motorcycles, provided the oil is changed after much shorter miles of use. Current wet sump motorcycle engines most often have unitized engine and transmission cases which share the oil supply. My using the wet sump term was just lazy shorthand.

armtdm · February 2005

Unfortunately when a company is taken over (like Fram for example) th enew owner usually is in need of recapturing the cost, rarely does the product improve and in most cases its quality goes down. This happened when Allied purchased the Fram name years ago, a good filter to a piece of crap. WHo knows what Honeywell will do with it but the odds are against improving it

wtd44 · February 2005

Actually, I wonder about the current true status of Fram filters. I suspect that they are perfectly fine for standard uses at this point. In my area, they carry a bit of a price premium, and that is what stops me from buying them. I can get very good filters at lower prices from most of the discount auto parts franchises. I only ask a filter to go 3-4K miles, at which time I change it and the oil.

bottgers · March 2005

In some cases, the Fram filters may not be good for even 3-4K miles.

pulgo · March 2005

On what verifiable test do you base that comment?

wtd44 · March 2005

I am of the opinion that good engine oil filtration can be achieved by using some bargain-priced house branded filters. I believe that Wix and Champion sourced filters in this category are among the best.

mitchflorida · March 2005

My Honda Accord calls for 5w-30 weight oil, but down here in Florida, all the big chains use Pennzoil 10w-30, presumably because it is so hot down here.

When I asked the guy behind the counter he said it really made no difference and that I should use 10w-30 even though Honda recommended otherwise. Is this okay? If not , a lot of people down here in the Sunshine State are getting bad oil changes!

micweb · March 2005

Use what the manual requires. See if they allow 10-30 as an alternative.

joe3891 · March 2005

is for fuel economy, 10W-30 is good oil for Florida due to the high temp.

micweb · March 2005

I have to disagree a bit. VW dealers were too cheap to put full synthetic in the VW Turbo 1.8's and put 10-30 in, instead, thinking the heavier viscosity would protect the cars. It didn't. 10-30 is an older grade of oil. The only advantage it has (besides sometimes being much cheaper to dealers in bulk) is that in prior years, it may have required a less agressive VI (viscosity index) improver than the 5-30 oils (the belief is that the narrower range of weight, the better the oil holds up). Recently oils have been upgraded again, to SM grade. This is apparently a much higher grade of oil than the old SL SG stocks - essentially Group II only - and will not "thin out" from shear (lose its viscoscity) nearly as fast as the old 5-30's.

Check the manuals. No matter where you live in the USA - including Texas and other quite hot states - and no matter what kind of driving, 5-30 is the preferred motor oil.

It also protects your car better on start up - it flows much better and gets to engine parts quicker.

10-30 and 10-40 are mostly remnants from an earlier motoring history. Now is you are a NASCAR racer, you may be using 50 weight oil - but I'll bet it's also synthetic.

highroller · March 2005

i am hoping someone can help me with a problem I'm having with my 97 Accord with 127,000 miles on it. Ever since i switched from dino to synthetic motor oil in the last oil change, I've began to notice leaks/drops of oil that were gradually increasing. I am debating on whether to switch back to my conventional castrol gtx or I should keep my mobil 1. I don't know much about motor oil, but I've read somewhere in here that synthetics can clean the engine deposits so well that it can eventually cause leaks to happen especially on old,high-mileage vehicles. I really like the advantages of going with synthetics and that is why I switched oils. So can someone please tell me what should I do or inform me about some way I can do to prevent further leaks without spending a whole lot of money

. Thanks in advance.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2005

This happens now and then with synthetic oil in older engines and you have to live with it. I don't think switching back will cure the leaks anyhow.

You might try to identify the source of the leaks using an oil dye and a black light and perhaps you can gently snug up those gaskets.

highroller · March 2005

ok, thanks Mr_Shiftright. I will try to do what you've said and see how it goes. If not, then maybe I'll go see a mechanic and ask for a nice price to correct the problem haha

. But anyhow, I will try to report my progress or results as soon as i can to let you know if you wish to know. Thanks again.

altair4 · March 2005

Might want to try one of the "high mileage" oils. Aren't they supposed to help with this type of issue?

wtd44 · March 2005

Start shopping for your next vehicle... >:o]

joe3891 · March 2005

>>I have to disagree a bit.<<
Ford went to 5W-20 for fuel economy, for some reason you are not aware of the economy issue.

highroller · March 2005

I've heard they can help the seals seal up better or something like that. I'm not so sure about it, maybe someone who has had oil leaks before and used the high mileage oils that says it will condition the seals better on their label would like to give us some input.

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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