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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • mattandimattandi Member Posts: 588
    hmmm, I was thinking that more people would just start walking.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Issue is that Cobasys is about ready to shut its doors. GM has no other source for the batteries, threfore they have to keep the supplier open.

    Battery issue is fixed.

    Cobasys is not a Fiat sized company.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Board of Directors also just approved funding to start designing a "next generation" small car they hope will achieve as good of gas mileage as a 1977 Honda Civic

    Wagoner said the GM board has approved production of a new small Chevrolet car at a plant in Lordstown, Ohio, in mid-2010 and production of the Chevrolet Volt electric vehicle in Detroit.

    Amazing how people make things up here. Anybody can say anything. Obviously the design has been ongoing. The B of D just approved the financials to changeover a plant. In 2 years the vehicles will be going out the door. Currently the vehicle is built overseas.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    No, it will get MUCH better gas mileage, as a 1977 Civic was rated under the ORIGINAL fuel economy specs, which were FAR more liberal than today.

    Yeah, I posted a pretty long diatribe in response to that post when it showed up in another forum, but I can't find it now. Anyway, I think the best the '78 Civic did (1978 was actually the first year they started publishing EPA tests) was 44 on the highway, with the CVCC model and a stickshift. The non-CVCC model, with the 2-speed semi-automatic was only rated at 23/30.

    By 1996, GM was getting 27/40 out of the 4-cyl Century, with just a 3-speed, non-overdrive automatic. Again, this is using those raw test numbers, which are much more liberal than what was showing up on the window stickers. Heck, even the '96 Impala SS, with its LT-1 350, was rated something like 19/33!

    Today, the 4-cyl versions of the Malibu post raw highway figures of something like 42 or 46, depending on transmission. And the XFE version of the Cobalt (or whatever acronym they use) is rated something like 36/50!

    I think the Cobalt's pretty impressive, considering it most likely has power steering, brakes, and a/c standard. I doubt if the late 70's Civics the EPA was testing didn't have any of that stuff.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    It also did not have 4 airbags and 5 star safety ratings.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I wonder what kind of fuel economy an automatic tranny Cobalt would get, if it had some of the changes applied to it that the XFE got. Stuff like the slightly taller axle, revised engine calibration, and lower-resistance tires? I think it's pretty impressive that Chevy was able to make a few revisions and suddenly get class-leading EPA numbers for stick-shift compacts. But that's a fairly limited market. If they could get an automatic Cobalt with a boost in MPG, that would help out much more with their CAFE ratings.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Your premise is incorrect - BUT
    Building ethanol plants takes time (years, not days). Even if GM plugin Volt works, which is quite likely and Toyota is now saying they will have one too for 2010, production capcity to build 20 million units annually will take time, but perhaps can be done in 2-3 years.

    If we know that oil will be gone in a few years from this very minute, and we start now, perhaps alternatives could be ready when it is gone.

    The real problem is that oil production will decline, and is already declining. There is less production this year than last year. This means that we need to use less oil this year than last year.

    graph

    Current production is around 86.5 million barrels per day. The graph shows that by 2020 the production will probably decline to about 60 to 70 million per day
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Per your chart I would say we have only about 5 years before the crap really hits the fan. With others sucking up the fuel faster and faster it is gonna get worst. Looks like the only solution is ethanol for the cars already out there and plug in starting around 2015. Of course I am not sure the charts are correct since the sky has been falling on and off for 40 years.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I have doubts about how much ethanol is possible. If you take all of the corn production away then what about feeding animals that we depend on for food? We do have oil shale deposits which are not in the worst case parts of the graph I suspect.
  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    If they are going to produce 20 million plug-ins, the electric companies better start rebuilding bigger and better power grids. In the northeast and south (on really hot summer days)...they can't even produce enough electricity to keep everbody's A/C running 24/7.There are numerous discussions already as to where all this electricity will be coming from!!!
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    I had a 1977 Civic CVCC hatchback. Automatic transmission - the old, two-speed Hondamatic - was available, but, if I recall correctly, power steering wasn't available, although there was power assist for the brakes, as manual disc brakes require very high pedal pressure.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Do you remember what kind of fuel economy that Civic got? I just looked up the old EPA estimates again, and here's what they have listed...

    29/37 (76 CID, manual)
    23/30 (76 CID, semi-automatic)
    36/44 (91 CID CVCC, manual)
    29/35 (91 CID CVCC, semi-automatic)

    I guess if you adjusted those downward by around 10-15%, that might have been more indicative of what the "typical" driver got?
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    The real problem is that oil production will decline, and is already declining. There is less production this year than last year. This means that we need to use less oil this year than last year.

    graph

    Current production is around 86.5 million barrels per day. The graph shows that by 2020 the production will probably decline to about 60 to 70 million per day

    I thought I read recently (within the past 2 weeks) that oil production is finally above 2005 levels and most of the production issues pertain to a few countries that are having internal management problems with their oil reserves (Russia and Venezuela). I could be wrong.

    Either way the issue with oil is not that we are running out. Investors found out how delicate the oil/gas production was after Katrina and are now speculating on the future price of oil similar to stocks. Oil went up $11 last Friday not because of any disruption to oil production but on news of the US unemployment rate and value of the US dollar. If the idiots in Congress would stop arguing and come up with a REAL energy plan that invests in US energy independence, i guarantee that you will see the price of oil drop. This oil craze smells and looks like the recent housing market.

    Back to GM, I'm also skeptical that the Volt will accomplish what GM hopes. Every time I think GM is out of danger something else pops up to remind me how delicate their situation is. I think it's great they are moving forward with the Volt but you have to ask where is their answer to the Prius, Civic Hybrid, Altima CVT, Insight NOW! I can't buy a GM vehicle to match these cars today for fuel efficiency. Their version of green and fuel efficiency is to promote a 5500 #, $40k+ Tahoe that gets 20 mpg. Yay! Put that technology to work in a regular car and achieve 40 mpg. Why is this so hard for them to grasp this concept??? All I keep reading is excuses and it's coming. I'm in the corner with the "wait and see" group.

    I thought they solved their issues with the labor union last fall. Why all the talk of labor issues and possible strikes?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    First those that think corn being used for ethanol is causing food prices to increase have their head in the sand. Food prices have gone up due to a weak dollar, gas prices doubled, etc. I read that corn price increased due to ethanol only increased the food prices by 1%.

    Ethanol in two years will be made from old tires, switch grass, human manure and just about anything. It is almost like the stuff that ran the Delorean in Back to the future.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Gotta get me a Mr. Fusion installed on the ole Park Ave!
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Fusion energy is where I think the future is, but presently fusion seems as far away as it was 50 years ago. However, we seem much closer to an understanding of elementary particles than we were 10 year ago. While stars can make energy from fusion, perhaps we will need to do something far more clever.

    For those who think that ethanol production has not affected corn prices, and consequently food prices, think again or read more than one source on the subject. Wheat prices are way up from where they used to be too, and flour that was priced at $4 per bag (premium flour, what can I say :blush: ) is now $5. My local super market with the Buick dairy products, has charged $6.60 so that I order the stuff direct from Vermont shipped via USPS for less.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    The increase in food is not just from corn. The corn increase is probably more profit to the middlemen and little to the farmer. However the increased corn production for the new Andersons-Marathon ethanol plant in provincial Greenville has brought more acreage into corn production. That acreage has reduced the other crops such as wheat, oats, beans, etc., that would have gone to other food crops. Therefore their pricing has increased due to low supply.

    Also the alcohol is subisidized at 46 cents per gallon, I heard recently, by the taxpayer. I understood building the plant also was subsidized. The ethanol requires 3 gallons of energy to end up with 2 gallons of ethanol. It also produces a large amount of CO2 to the point that one project has been run on "storing" the CO2 underground. And a new grant has been give to Battelle (Columbus) to study and test storing CO2 underground a different way. Apparently a large amount of that awful global warming causing CO2 is being produced to get the ethanol. I'll post a llink if I can find it from our newspaper in the last week or so.

    CO2 study

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The next gas for refrigerant may be CO2. It has a much lower greenhouse effect than the current 134A. Perhaps all of the CO2 can be stored away in A/C devices :P
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I will agree with your next to the last paragraph, GM should be putting a hybrid system in their RWD sedans and Buick should get one. In fact these RWD sedans should be available ONLY as hybrids. However, I think that the rechargeable Volt system would be even better.

    As far as where the energy for recharging is coming from, they should be recharged in the off peak hours when there is excess power capacity. This is not to say that 100 million rechargable cars will not require more power plants (like wind and solar or nuclear).
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    http://www.ers.usda.gov/AmberWaves/February08/Features/CornPrices.htm

    again, corn is not the future of ethanol. In two years this will be a non issue.

    Given that foods using corn as an ingredient make up less than a third of retail food spending, overall retail food prices would rise less than 1 percentage point per year above the normal rate of food price inflation when corn prices increase by 50 percent.

    http://www.americanfuels.info/2008/05/study-examines-ethanols-effect-on-corn.htm- l

    In fact according to the study, if ethanol production were the only thing driving corn prices, the price would have increased 41 cents from the first quarter of the 2006/2007 marketing year to the first quarter of the 2007/2008 marketing year. This would have resulted in a price of $2.95 per bushel. The actual price was $3.34 per bushel, so 39 cents of the increase came from other factors.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    http://www.ers.usda.gov/AmberWaves/February08/Features/CornPrices.htm

    again, corn is not the future of ethanol. In two years this will be a non issue.

    Given that foods using corn as an ingredient make up less than a third of retail food spending, overall retail food prices would rise less than 1 percentage point per year above the normal rate of food price inflation when corn prices increase by 50 percent.

    http://www.americanfuels.info/2008/05/study-examines-ethanols-effect-on-corn.htm- - l

    In fact according to the study, if ethanol production were the only thing driving corn prices, the price would have increased 41 cents from the first quarter of the 2006/2007 marketing year to the first quarter of the 2007/2008 marketing year. This would have resulted in a price of $2.95 per bushel. The actual price was $3.34 per bushel, so 39 cents of the increase came from other factors.

    So corn pricing is up about 30% with less than half due to ethanol. And since corn price is not directly related to the price of other food products(i.e. price of meat does not go up proportionally to corn) the increase due to corn is much less than 5% (1% according to one study).
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >since corn price is not directly related to the price of other food products(i.e. price of meat does not go up proportionally to corn)

    I haven't read the link..., but
    the beef are fed corn. When corn goes up, the relative cost of beef goes up. Same for pork. That pork chop and bacon costs more. And other grains are ground into the meal mix used to feed various poultry and livestock, so they all are affected.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    that the Saudi's say that the price of crude oil "should" be $70 per barrel. I think that corn prices are very much affected by demand for ethanol. However, there are numerous demands that are adding up in grain prices. If in fact ethanol production from waste products does come to be, which I think is very iffy, then we may see some moderation in inflation. I expect inflation to moderate because our FED is worried and so are other governments.
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    Washington DC June 12, 2008; The AIADA newsletter reported that Toyota Motor Corp. yesterday fired a fresh volley in the green car wars, promising two new hybrid vehicles and the start of lithium ion battery production next year.

    The two hybrids – one badged a Toyota, the other a Lexus – will debut at the Detroit auto show and come on top of the third-generation Prius car, also due in 2009.

    Toyota didn't give further details about the upcoming vehicles. But Masatami Takimoto, executive vice president in charge of R&D, said the Toyota will be larger than the Prius. "It's a totally new car," Takimoto told Automotive News.

    For the redesigned Prius, Toyota will stick with the current generation's nickel-metal hydride batteries.

    The long-awaited lithium ion batteries, light in weight and high in power, will debut in Toyota's first plug-in hybrid, due in 2010, he said. Toyota also discussed its long-term battery plans.

    Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe said he already is thinking beyond lithium. To that end, the automaker is setting up a battery research department this month to develop a post-lithium ion battery with even better performance, he said.
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    This appears to be a rare, camo-free shot of the 2011 Chevy Cobalt replacement.

    The yet-to-be-named compact would ride on the Delta platform and is expected to begin production at General Motors’ Lordstown, Ohio, plant in mid-2010. It’s likely to be revealed it at an auto show this fall.

    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080612/FREE/993098544/1065
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Member Posts: 833
    do you have a post stating ethanol represent a 1% increase in food costs?

    Still, ethonal is joke. 25% less fuel efficiency than gas and it takes alot of resources to produce. Then there are subsidies to the tune of .51 cents per gallon!

    I refuse to put ethonal in my car on an ethical and fiscal basis.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think that the article that was posted indicated an increase of 1% in the inflation rate, but that is not entirely clear. However, an extra 1% per month would compound over the last three years to something like 50% more :sick:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >I refuse to put ethonal in my car on an ethical and fiscal basis.

    Unless you're driving a diesel you're probably using gasoline with ethanol added to it. It was my understand a few years back the legislation mandated a certain quantity of ethanol be used. Of course that coincided with granting assistance to large companies to build ethanol plants and to subsidize their out put at $0.46 per gallon...

    Our state used to have a requirement on the pump to notify consumers if the gasoline could have up to 10% ethanol in it -- anything beyond the nominal amount for condensation control, but that has disappeared now. So you don't know what you're buying. I do know in Tennessee last week I bought fuel an the pump was marked that it did contain 10%. I didn't put in much. That explains why it was 3-5 cents cheaper at those stations.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Since MTBE (I think it was) is not used as an oxygenator anymore, ethanol is equally as good and is the substitute in areas that require it. However, I don't know how much is needed for the desired effect. Here we only have problems with blowing dirt on windy days. Cars don't really cause a problem, even with 50's emission standards.

    Our mid-grade fuel here is 10% ethanol and is labeled as such. Its price tag is also the lowest. Premium is now 425 cents per gallon.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I wish we could still get premium for 4.25 in CA. Our regular is 4.55!
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I was in CA at the end of April and some premium was over 425 then
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Member Posts: 833
    to my knowledge, ethonal is not blended into gas here in Ca unless it's stated.

    ethonal, according to Consumer Reports will decrease your MPG by 25%.

    All this talk about ethonal using alternatives to corn makes me wonder if the lobby for ethonal is just buying time to continue the ethonal infrastructure going.

    The state of California purchased many flex fuel cars which have never seen a drop of ethonal. It was a black eye to Scwartzenager who was accused of making a deal with GM where only GM flex fuel cars qualified for a state contract. They purchased all these cars with no competition with no infrastructure in place. The cars run less efficient on gas as well! :surprise:

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/09/23/schwarzeneggers-role-in-gm-getting-flex-- fuel-contract-questione/
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    MTBE is not used in California. It was replaced with corn based ethanol starting around 2003.

    http://www.bizjournals.com/eastbay/stories/2003/01/06/daily51.html

    WASHINGTON, DC, March 29, 2006 (ENS) – The oil industry's decision to abruptly abandon the controversial fuel additive MTBE could tighten gasoline supplies and cause further price spikes, the head of the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) told a Senate panel Wednesday.

    Fear of litigation has prompted refiners to replace MTBE, which has contaminated groundwater across the nation, with ethanol, but concerns remain about the logistics of the switch and supply of the plant-based fuel.

    An estimated 130,000 barrels of ethanol per day are needed to fill the void left by MTBE, or methyl tertiary-butyl ether, a figure that is nearly half the current domestic production.

    "Nearly all companies have been planning to blend ethanol," said EIA Administrator Guy Caruso, "and it involves major changes in operation and supply sources to the east coast and Texas."


    http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/mar2006/2006-03-29-10.asp
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    do you have a post stating ethanol represent a 1% increase in food costs?

    I could not find the article but I did find one that said 4%.

    In fact, it says that only 4 percent of the change in food prices is a result of fluctuations in corn future prices.

    It identifies the "marketing bill", which is the final food costs excluding grains or other raw materials, as a key driver of the consumer price index (CPI) for food, largely due to rising energy and transportation costs.

    Another significant factor is surging global demand for commodities.

    "The statistical analysis plainly details that energy-intensive activities such as processing, packaging and transporting, as well as the cost of labor, have a far greater impact on consumer food bills than the price of grain," said Informa chairman and CEO Bruce Scherr.

    "It may be politically convenient to blame ethanol for rising food prices, but it doesn't make it factually accurate."


    http://www.foodqualitynews.com/news/ng.asp?id=81987

    http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/news/ng.asp?n=80295-ethanol-food-prices-corn

    http://nqr.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/agribusiness-and-general/general- /ethanol-has-minor-impact-on-food-prices-in-us/85258.aspx
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Still, ethonal is joke. 25% less fuel efficiency than gas and it takes alot of resources to produce. Then there are subsidies to the tune of .51 cents per gallon!

    Lets hope someday you get the joke.

    CHICAGO – Coskata Inc., a biology-based renewable-energy company
    supported with an investment from General Motors Corp., calls its
    cellulosic-ethanol production process bulletproof and says the next step
    is to increase the efficiency of the microscopic organisms used in
    making the fuel.

    The organisms can make cellulosic ethanol for less than $1 per gallon
    (3.8 L), a threshold Coskata passed in January, at roughly the same time
    GM announced its undisclosed stake in the firm.

    “We flew by our minimum economic threshold, and now we’re about a year
    ahead of schedule,” Coskata President and CEO William Roe tells
    journalists at a recent media event here. “It gives us great confidence
    moving forward.”
    GM prefers Coskata’s simple 3-step process because the feedstock used to
    make synthesis gas, which the microorganisms eat and then excrete
    ethanol, comes from non-food sources such as garbage, manure, wood, old
    tires and factory waste.

    The process also is highly scalable, so it’s capable of supporting the
    large fleet of flex-fuel vehicles GM would like to see the U.S. auto
    industry bring to market over the next several years.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    GM Cars Get Better MPG for '09 – cars.com/kickingtires

    June 11, 2008

    It seems the folks over at GM are as experienced at emergency surgery as the cast of “ER.” Across GM’s entire lineup of cars, trucks and SUVs, the company has tried to enhance fuel economy above all else, often with significant results.

    We can only report with certainty on the models whose EPA estimates have been reported so far, and the ones that stick out most are GM’s midsize sedans and full-size trucks.

    The Chevy Malibu, Pontiac G6 and Saturn Aura now feature a six-speed automatic transmission in their four-cylinder models. The six-speed is offered only on certain trim levels of the Malibu and G6, but is standard, along with stability control, on the Saturn Aura. Prices haven’t been announced for the 2009 models, but prices for the same trims/packages for 2008 were $21,185, $21,775 and $20,405, respectively. That makes the Aura by far the value leader of the trio.

    What does the new transmission mean at the pump? It means the trio — rated at 22/33 mpg city/highway, up from 22/30 mpg for 2008 — is now more efficient than four-cylinder versions of the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord, which are rated at 21/31 mpg and 22/31 mpg respectively. They even best the manual-transmission Accord at 22/31 mpg.
    Earlier, we reported on both the 2009 Chevy Aveo and the 2008 Cobalt base models getting mileage bumps.

    What other GM models get better mileage this year? The Chevy Silverado.

    The 2009 Chevy Silverado pickup only saw an increase in mileage on its biggest 6.0-liter V-8, going from 13/19 mpg city/highway to 14/19 mpg for 2009. And while GM's Chevy Tahoe, Suburban and GMC Yukon also get six-speed transmissions in models equipped with larger V-8s, estimated mileage remains the same as it was in 2008.

    Go to: http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/06/gm-cars-suvs-ge.html
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Malibu Takes First in Mid-size Car Segment in J.D. Power IQS
    Earlier this week, J.D. Power & Associates released its annual Initial Quality Study (IQS). In this study, GM attained its best PPH (Problems Per 100) performance ever. The Chevrolet Malibu led the way with a first-place finish (80 PPH) in the mid-size car segment, beating out the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. The Chevrolet Silverado Light Duty and Pontiac Grand Prix also were segment winners.
    Here are some more GM highlights:
    Four brands (Cadillac, Chevrolet, Pontiac and Buick), representing 82% of our volume, rank above the industry average – up from zero last year
    GM has a total of 11 vehicles in the top three positions of award-eligible segments, an increase of one over 2007
    – Chevrolet Malibu
    – Chevrolet Silverado Light Duty
    – Chevrolet Corvette
    – Chevrolet Tahoe
    – Chevrolet Express
    – Chevrolet Avalanche
    – Pontiac Grand Prix sedan
    – Pontiac Solstice
    – Cadillac DTS
    – Cadillac Escalade
    – GMC Yukon
    Hummer, Cadillac, Pontiac, and Chevrolet show double-digit PPH improvements year-to-year
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Member Posts: 833
    so I read that in California they are using a 5-6% blend of ethonal in gas.

    Ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline. That means that about one-third more ethanol is required to travel the same distance as on gasoline.

    The facts are, however, that the production and use of ethanol will actually worsen air pollution and may increase the release of greenhouse gases. In addition, it will not result in meaningful independence from foreign or domestic oil. Its production will require large amounts of water, often in areas that are subject to chronic and sporadic plagues of drought. And, it will have severe effects on agriculture, food prices and starvation relief, along with the potential for serious water pollution.

    They're making Ethanol in Brazil today from Sugar Cane - it's much cheaper, but can't compete with what's made here due to the corn lobby getting a .51 cent subsidy from the US government.

    It's not just about producing alternate forms of energy to burn in your combustable engine, but more about efficient uses of energy and using more clean energy to power our cars.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline. That means that about one-third more ethanol is required to travel the same distance as on gasoline.

    True, but at 85% ethanol, it STILL uses less gasoline than 100% gasoline.

    Its production will require large amounts of water,

    WRONG!!!! The costkata model uses less than 1 gallon of water to produce 1 gal of ethanol, and uses all kinds of waste to peoduce it.

    This is from a different blog:

    During the North American International Auto Show (NAIAS) or the Detroit Auto Show, one of the most exciting developments I heard was made by GM Chairman Rick Wagoner, announcing a partnership with Coskata, a Warrenville, IL, biology-based ethanol producer. The company uses proprietary microorganisms and patented bioreactor designs to turn biomass, municipal solid waste and other carbonaceous material into ethanol for under $1.00 per gallon.

    To me, this is a game changer, easily altering the way we all recycle, for one thing. Imagine, instead of creating more landfills, we convert our plastics, tires, cardboard, and solid food waste into a clean energy! Plus, it doesn’t feed into the controversy about using grain-based products for energy use and the supposed increase in global food prices that are a result.
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Member Posts: 833
    the costkata model?
    and how many years off is that "exciting GM development"?

    I'm talking corn - it does take alot of water to grow corn. There's nothing "wrong" with that statement.
    you're talking about something in the future that sounds great, but for now we are putting our efforts into the wrong solution.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Wow, you keep giving your opinion but never any facts. Yes corn ethanol is an interim solution but it is now already at about 10% of every gallon of gas you buy. The data proves that the increase in food prices has not been primarily caused by the usage of corn even though again, the facts are thrown to the side.

    Yes it does use water. It is not efficient but then again most people in this country want to get the hell out of the east and that is not gonna happen as long as we need their gas.

    The Coskata process is in usage today. GM has been burning it with no problems. The plant being built now and soon to be completed will supply fuel for GM to test in their entire fleet by the end of this year. Full scale plants should be in production in two years. Now do we have any other solutions to reduce the oil imports in that time frame?

    http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/coskata-begins-building-demonstration-pla- nt-778.html

    Coskata has begun producing small amounts of ethanol at a pilot plant at its offices in Warrenville, Ill., and has started building its 40,000-gallon-per-year demonstration plant, Chief Marketing Officer Wes Bolsen told Greentech Media this week.

    The next step is the demonstration plant, which Coskata expects to open at the end of this year or the beginning of next year (see Coskata Bucks Tradition).

    The company expects to break ground on its first plant, which will have the capacity to make between 50 million and 100 million gallons of ethanol annually, this year and to have the plant up and running in late 2010.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "GM said it will sell and export $1 billion worth of vehicles, component kits, machinery and equipment to one of its Chinese partners, Shanghai General Motors, through 2010."

    GM, Ford will export more cars to China (mlive.com)
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    What data? you have no link to "data" proving anything. One of your previous links "proved" that the rate of inflation in food increased by 1% due to ethanol, and 1% per month is a lot.

    here is a link that shows corn production is up and soybean production is down - due to biofuel shifts. It stands to reason that grain prices are going up if farmers are shifting production out of other grains into corn.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Which link said 1% a month? Never saw that. Did see 1% per year.

    Given that foods using corn as an ingredient make up less than a third of retail food spending, overall retail food prices would rise less than 1 percentage point per year above the normal rate of food price inflation when corn prices increase by 50 percent.

    Did see:

    In fact, it says that only 4 percent of the change in food prices is a result of fluctuations in corn future prices.

    http://www.foodqualitynews.com/news/ng.asp?id=81987

    http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/news/ng.asp?n=80295-ethanol-food-prices-corn

    http://nqr.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/agribusiness-and-general/general- /ethanol-has-minor-impact-on-food-prices-in-us/85258.aspx
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    It was so long ago, I can't remember. It seemed pretty good at the time, but the points of comparison were a 1976 Oldsmobile Delta 88 Royale with a 350 V-8, and a 1973 AMC Gremlin with a 258 I-6.

    The Gremlin didn't use much gas, but that's because a car isn't using much gas when it's on a repair lift or being towed...
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    General Motors Corp is confident it will
    be able to deliver the all-electric Chevrolet Volt as planned and is
    close to naming a supplier for the vehicle's crucial battery, GM Vice
    Chairman Bob Lutz said on Monday.

    "I would say there's almost no reasonable doubt in our minds anymore
    that this is going to work," said Lutz, who heads vehicle development
    for GM.
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Member Posts: 833
    what facts would you like 62vette?

    tell me what link you want and I'll provide it.

    I thought it was amaizing you needed a link to belive that GM would have anything to do with a tax write off for people who purchased a Hummer. Do you want the names, dates, photgraphs and bank transfer reciepts when the money was handed off from GM to the lobby who went to Washington to greese the wheels of Congress? :confuse:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    tell me what link you want and I'll provide it

    Actually anything at all that shows GM was behind the revision in the law would be just fine.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Two points:
    1) 4% is 4 times the number you were claiming, so you were wrong.
    2) those links are all basically using the same source as the basis for saying no problem - and it looks more like a lot of hand waving than actual data.

    The problem is that food prices have many feed backs and to say that something has no effect is difficult. Ethanol production does take a lot of corn, and this has raised the price of corn. Farmers are shifting production of other grains into corn - meaning that there is less production of other food grains like wheat and soybeans.

    One thing I will agree with is that ethanol production is not the only reason that food prices are up, but it is ONE reason that they are up. The ethanol plants designed to use corn will continue to do so until this is not profitable. With corn at $8 some ethanol plants are not profitable now, or at least I have heard on the news that they were suspending operations.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    ) 4% is 4 times the number you were claiming, so you were wrong.

    I could not find the site on the 1% so I may still be right. Read it somewhere and it came from a government source. But I will take the hit and be wrong on 1%. 4% is still a reasonable number to me for getting rid of some oil usage.

    It is a lot of hand waving. The permutations and complications are huge with the food and fuel markets. However it is one thing to run off and say that ethanol is the cause of the food run up and another to actually have groups look into it and find that it is a source of food cost increases but nowhere near the amount spouted on the internet and the airwaves.
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