...I've been running 87 Octane in my girlfriend's wife's Buick LaCrosse since it was new with no ill effects. I only run premium in my Cadillacs however.
"You say corvette only designed for 50 fullpower launches? If you are serious please cite a reference for that? It sure sounds like hogwash, but may no more than any of my unattributed points, eh? "
I followed 2 Corvette Forums for over a year before I bought my 2007 Coupe - and checked in at least daily for the 2 years [ excluding a couple of vacations ] I had mine - and I have never seen any reference to anything remotely like this... Odd. - Ray Ex-Corvette driver....
Given the antediluvian origins and loafish nature of the 3800, your wife could probably run 78 octane in the Lacrosse with no ill effects. :P
The smart and the Honda both call for premium, so that's what I put in there. The Sentra doesn't need it, but I want to bump the timing up a few degrees once I get it running well, so I've been filling it up with 93 to be ready.
I'll have to get back to you later as I have to get to work right now, but it is true that the drivetrain was only designed to take that sort of beating.
I have to admit that I like some of the new models that GM has been turning out. For the most part I think they have greatly improved their interiors by using better materials. So why did GM use cheap parts in their interiors to begin with? Were GM's costs so out of line that they had to put out a car with a lousy interior to make the car affordable? Seriously, the public knew that a GM interiors weren't up to the same standard as Toyota or Honda. GM brass had to know this too. So why did they do it?
You're pretty much right on. Ridiculously high operational costs + company execs greed + arrogance lead to all that crappy stuff we get from past and even current GM.
I just saw on USA Today that the deal for Penske to acquire Saturn has collapsed. Consequently it was announced that GM will be shutting down Saturn.
I might guess that the type of people who bought Saturns might go in fairly large numbers to Subaru which is a smaller, "different", and loyal culture and company.
Anyway given the economic environment and the multitude of models and brands, Saturn really isn't needed.
If the feds were serious about preventing high-speeds they would simply have the manufacturers use the engine control CPU's to limit speed to the highest speed limit in the country.
But they'd never do that, since speed control and laws are all about revenue and taxation through fines, they'd never limit your right to "speed." It is completely 100% non-safety related, traffic enforcement in this country is a sham.
By the way, are high speed tire pressures higher or lower than normal PSI?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
... the deal for Penske to acquire Saturn has collapsed. Consequently it was announced that GM will be shutting down Saturn.
That's bad for the employees, but ultimately good for the market. GM was way too big and just rolling ownership to Penske did not downsize the capacity enough. Penske was smart to walk away.
Here's the lastest AutoObserver take. Just yesterday we were predicting a Wednesday or Thursday close.
"The Saturn dealership network represented a unique opportunity for Penske, but the risk was sourcing product and that proved to be too much to overcome to complete the deal."
Premium is recommended for the 3.6 in the CXS, but will run fine on 87 ( per the owners manual). The 3 litre can use 87. I put 87 in my CXS, and it runs fine. I've been averaging 22.5 mpg in mixed driving. The best I've gotten is 29.6
You are missing the Euro/ISO Pb with the circle and the line through it. I think even the Canadian Euro models get that. In North America, we aren't smart enough to understand the symbol.
What would that be to prevent, someone adding lead additive? Leaded gasoline has been gone for ages. I remember it still being available in WA state right when I started driving - maybe 1993 or so, but it was gone soon after. IIRC it was 88 octane then.
A key driver of the Chevrolet Volt project is defecting to start his own consulting firm, according to published reports.
Volt chief Bob Kruse, 50, has left General Motors. He's been replaced by GM engineering veteran Micky Bly, who has also been involved with development of the Volt. The Detroit News first reported the moves on Wednesday.
Indeed, the blown engines seem to be more difficult to design to run on 87 octane even given that reduced-power would be acceptable. My Y2K E320 wagon fuel door said also indicated something very close to "premium fuel only". Also in the manual it said something like this: "You can use 87 octane, but drive directly to another fuel station using maximum 1/4-throttle, and top off with premium, cowboy!". So apparently 87 octane was *supported* by the manufacturer for my Y2K E320, at least to some extent, but maybe not to the full/100%/no-worries extent that GM/corvette/etc supports 87 octane. I found some discussion about Caddy Escalades running fine on 87 octane, again consistent with the other GM V8 vehicles.
"I'll have to get back to you later as I have to get to work right now, but it is true that the drivetrain was only designed to take that sort of beating. "
So - apparently this was a statement with no grounding in fact....
My E55 is actually the NA version, (M113) from late in MY 2002 production. It's still a high output engine, and I have to trust the fine folks at AMG when it comes to fuel recommendations. If I wanted reduced power, I would buy a less powerful car :shades: It's also better than the kompressor model in one way - better mileage, sometimes significantly.
I think my owners manual may say that same kind of thing, I will have to take a look.
It's not at all surprising that a huge GM V8 can take 87 octane fuel, while a Mercedes needs premium. The GM V8 has, in most applications, a low compression ratio and a low specific output per liter of displacement. The Mercedes likely does not. For example the Ford Mustang makes 300 hp from a 4.6l v8 while a Porsche Cayman S is making right around 300hp from a 3.4l (I believe) flat six. The Ford may be able to use regular, the Porsche certainly not. Now, the Porsche ECU may be smart enough to strangle the engine to avoid knocking, but really what are you achieving here? TANSTAAFL.
good points., sella! And to answer "what are you achieving": In recent years i've been driving about 50k or 60k miles per year, as did the other driver in my household. Many of the miles were on 45 mpg VW TDIs, but just for arguments sake let's say they were all done with GM V8s: At 20 mpg that's 3000 gallons per vehicle per year. 6000 gallons total per year. That's a household savings of $1500 per year, just by burning 87 octane instead of premium. (figure 2.50 for 87, 2.75 for premium?) There's one gas station locally selling 87 octane at 2.59, premium at 3.29. If that price-delta becomes prevalent, it would lead to a savings of over $3000 per year given the numbers above.
Perhaps in such extreme cases it makes some sense to do, but you're going to have an awful lot of other issues with that kind of driving.... like depreciation, never mind maintenance.
Wow, I'm glad I have a 9 mile roundtrip commute. In my are 93 octane is +$0.20/gal, over 87 octane. I have 8,000 miles on my car in 1.5 years. So 400 gal at a $0.20 premium has cost me $80 for 1.5 years. Drive a Mazdaspeed6 (turbo)which recommends 93 octane, requires 91 octane.
If I had a Corvette, Camaro, CTS-V I certainly wouldn't mind $80 extra/year to have some peace-of-mind that I'm pnot damaging the engine or getting lower detergent amounts on a $50K vehicle for that small amount of money.
I was thinking the EPA mandated minimum standards of detergent. Shell says their gas meets the "Top Tier" standard and has two to five times the amount of cleaning agents required by the EPA.
I'm not sure that I buy their claims, but you can get more detergent in some brands than in others.
interesting that the E55 manual allows for 15% MTBE but only 10% ethanol. I think MTBE is no longer in any USA fuel now, thankfully... !
Now if we can get rid of ethanol too we'll get better mpg and reduce oil imports.
Unfortunately The Old GM leveraged the E85/CAFE scam effectively. That is probably going to increase with The New GM, eh? Probably more GM models will become E85-capable? (?)
>The Old GM leveraged the E85/CAFE scam effectively.
Actually the alcohol scam was effected by ADM and other large corn processors as well as the commercial farm companies. Many middle-sized corner growers in the midwest lobbied for the increased use thinking it was raise prices on the corn which they sold. In the end it increased the cost of feeds used for farmers with livestock as well as cost of food products.
GM had little to do with it, so the vitriol toward the Old GM needs to be suppressed. GM was doing what the governments wanted.
After the increases in food costs and the huge subsidies to the AgriBusinesses who built corn-alcohol plants so they could make money with government subsidies, now we're stuck with the reality that producing alcohol from corner is water intensive and also CO2 producing. In effect there is no gain in pollution reduction by using ethanol because of the pollution inherent in producing it.
Further, "McKinstray said he was disappointed that some local citizens seemed to feel ethanol plant officials didn’t have the community’s best interests at heart. He’s concerned the area might get an activist reputation that could discourage future business investment."
This guy needs to go to DC; he'll go far in politics these days: blame the taxpayer as the bad guy for not wanting their groundwater turned acidic by CO2 pumped into the ground!!! for the benefit of his taxpayer- subsidized limited liability corporation as the shield for the joint business of Marathon and Andersons (a large grain company).
Living in east Central Illinois, and only 50 miles from Decatur (Home of ADM), stations here have been selling 10% ethanol gasoline since the mid-80s. It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to find any gasoline without the ethanol mix here.
"So vast is GM's discarded empire it includes assets unrelated to making cars. In Clark, N.J., officials at the Hyatt Hills Golf Complex wonder about their operation's fate.
GM spent several million dollars to redevelop a former factory site into the sprawling golf operation, which includes a driving range, nine-hole course and 18-hole miniature-golf course. The complex, which opened in 2002, brings in about $1.6 million in annual revenue, said Robert Hoeffler, the complex's executive director, and most of its profit goes to local governments."
I have the fintail of printers - an HP Series III, that's about 17 years old.
Have a 16 year-old HP Laserjet 4L purchased for about $600 (1993) that is bullit-proof. Like energizer bunny. Now, if GM built vehicles (Suburban in my possible wants) that I felt had that reliability, I could be tempted to try American again.
"The rights to his short-lived DeLorean Motor Company have been acquired by a tiny firm based outside Houston, which still supplies parts to the stainless steel DMC-12 gullwing sports car that was designed by Giugiaro and built in limited quantities in Northern Ireland in 1981-82."
General Motors reportedly close to selling Hummer for $150 million
General Motors Co., working to cut its U.S. brand count in half as part of its restructuring, is trying to complete a deal to sell Hummer to China's Sichuan Tengzhong Heavy Industrial Machinery Co. for about $150 million, Bloomberg News reported Thursday.
The companies hope to make a deal today or tomorrow for the SUV brand, Bloomberg said, citing three unnamed sources.
GM said in June that it expected to sell Hummer to the Chinese heavy machinery maker, which has no experience in the auto industry.
Hummer spokesman Nick Richards declined to comment. A source close to the sale said GM expects it to close "any day."
GM had estimated in the summer of 2008 that the sale of Hummer “might realize $500 million or more,” CEO Fritz Henderson said in documents filed during the automaker's 39-day bankruptcy.
I think what they meant was no experience building light passenger vehicles.....
The "old GM" is finding out that most of the brands it thought were such huge assets are essentially worthless. I suppose the damage to creditors and suppliers was already done, though, when the bankruptcy occurred. So it doesn't really matter how much if anything they get for brands like Hummer and Saturn now.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
A reporter would like to speak with drivers whose families have had a lot of automotive brand loyalty. Has it faded over the years? Please send a few sentences on this to pr@edmunds.com no later than Friday, October 16, 2009 if you care to be interviewed on the subject.
Comments
girlfriend'swife's Buick LaCrosse since it was new with no ill effects. I only run premium in my Cadillacs however.I followed 2 Corvette Forums for over a year before I bought
my 2007 Coupe - and checked in at least daily for the 2 years
[ excluding a couple of vacations ]
I had mine - and I have never seen any reference to
anything remotely like this...
Odd.
- Ray
Ex-Corvette driver....
The smart and the Honda both call for premium, so that's what I put in there. The Sentra doesn't need it, but I want to bump the timing up a few degrees once I get it running well, so I've been filling it up with 93 to be ready.
Good for you!
I might guess that the type of people who bought Saturns might go in fairly large numbers to Subaru which is a smaller, "different", and loyal culture and company.
Anyway given the economic environment and the multitude of models and brands, Saturn really isn't needed.
But they'd never do that, since speed control and laws are all about revenue and taxation through fines, they'd never limit your right to "speed." It is completely 100% non-safety related, traffic enforcement in this country is a sham.
By the way, are high speed tire pressures higher or lower than normal PSI?
Well, those jets get expensive. They tried to cover up the shoddy quality with hot dogs and apple pie. It didn't work.
That's bad for the employees, but ultimately good for the market. GM was way too big and just rolling ownership to Penske did not downsize the capacity enough. Penske was smart to walk away.
Here's the lastest AutoObserver take. Just yesterday we were predicting a Wednesday or Thursday close.
"The Saturn dealership network represented a unique opportunity for Penske, but the risk was sourcing product and that proved to be too much to overcome to complete the deal."
Regards,
OW
Take a look at the UAW forum if you get a chance. One of the reasons.
The only other is poor management. Period, the end.
Regards,
OW
Higher pressures go with higher speed driving just like higher pressures go with higher loads.
Oh yeah, looks like premium is required after all.
...for cars.
General Aviation still uses 100 octane low-lead gasoline.
Nothing if the engine your running needs it (i.e. old engines). Lead additives can still be purchased at your local auto parts store I believe.
A key driver of the Chevrolet Volt project is defecting to start his own consulting firm, according to published reports.
Volt chief Bob Kruse, 50, has left General Motors. He's been replaced by GM engineering veteran Micky Bly, who has also been involved with development of the Volt. The Detroit News first reported the moves on Wednesday.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090930/CARNEWS/909309988
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My Y2K E320 wagon fuel door said also indicated something very close to "premium fuel only". Also in the manual it said something like this:
"You can use 87 octane, but drive directly to another fuel station using maximum 1/4-throttle, and top off with premium, cowboy!".
So apparently 87 octane was *supported* by the manufacturer for my Y2K E320, at least to some extent, but maybe not to the full/100%/no-worries extent that GM/corvette/etc supports 87 octane.
I found some discussion about Caddy Escalades running fine on 87 octane, again consistent with the other GM V8 vehicles.
So - apparently this was a statement with no
grounding in fact....
I think my owners manual may say that same kind of thing, I will have to take a look.
And to answer "what are you achieving":
In recent years i've been driving about 50k or 60k miles per year, as did the other driver in my household. Many of the miles were on 45 mpg VW TDIs, but just for arguments sake let's say they were all done with GM V8s:
At 20 mpg that's 3000 gallons per vehicle per year. 6000 gallons total per year.
That's a household savings of $1500 per year, just by burning 87 octane instead of premium. (figure 2.50 for 87, 2.75 for premium?)
There's one gas station locally selling 87 octane at 2.59, premium at 3.29.
If that price-delta becomes prevalent, it would lead to a savings of over $3000 per year given the numbers above.
If I had a Corvette, Camaro, CTS-V I certainly wouldn't mind $80 extra/year to have some peace-of-mind that I'm pnot damaging the engine or getting lower detergent amounts on a $50K vehicle for that small amount of money.
that became mandated a decade or two ago.
I'm not sure that I buy their claims, but you can get more detergent in some brands than in others.
Fuel requirements per the owners manual in my E55
And the high octane desires of my old timer
Dang! I can't use my homemade gasoline-benzol-alcohol mixture :shades:
I think MTBE is no longer in any USA fuel now, thankfully... !
Now if we can get rid of ethanol too we'll get better mpg and reduce oil imports.
Unfortunately The Old GM leveraged the E85/CAFE scam effectively.
That is probably going to increase with The New GM, eh? Probably more GM models will become E85-capable? (?)
Actually the alcohol scam was effected by ADM and other large corn processors as well as the commercial farm companies. Many middle-sized corner growers in the midwest lobbied for the increased use thinking it was raise prices on the corn which they sold. In the end it increased the cost of feeds used for farmers with livestock as well as cost of food products.
GM had little to do with it, so the vitriol toward the Old GM needs to be suppressed. GM was doing what the governments wanted.
After the increases in food costs and the huge subsidies to the AgriBusinesses who built corn-alcohol plants so they could make money with government subsidies, now we're stuck with the reality that producing alcohol from corner is water intensive and also CO2 producing. In effect there is no gain in pollution reduction by using ethanol because of the pollution inherent in producing it.
A local company had to abandon plans to inject under pressure CO2 from their alcohol plant (subsidized by taxpayers).
The Andersons Marathon Ethanol LLC, Ohio’s largest ethanol plant, generates annually more than 250,000 tons of carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas thought to contribute to climate change. Virtually all of it would have been injected underground if a porous rock layer filled with saltwater far beneath the ethanol plant had been deemed suitable.
Further, "McKinstray said he was disappointed that some local citizens seemed to feel ethanol plant officials didn’t have the community’s best interests at heart. He’s concerned the area might get an activist reputation that could discourage future business investment."
This guy needs to go to DC; he'll go far in politics these days: blame the taxpayer as the bad guy for not wanting their groundwater turned acidic by CO2 pumped into the ground!!! for the benefit of his taxpayer- subsidized limited liability corporation as the shield for the joint business of Marathon and Andersons (a large grain company).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"So vast is GM's discarded empire it includes assets unrelated to making cars. In Clark, N.J., officials at the Hyatt Hills Golf Complex wonder about their operation's fate.
GM spent several million dollars to redevelop a former factory site into the sprawling golf operation, which includes a driving range, nine-hole course and 18-hole miniature-golf course. The complex, which opened in 2002, brings in about $1.6 million in annual revenue, said Robert Hoeffler, the complex's executive director, and most of its profit goes to local governments."
For Sale, Cheap: 'Old GM' Peddles an Empire's Remains (WSJ, via Yahoo)
Have a 16 year-old HP Laserjet 4L purchased for about $600 (1993) that is bullit-proof. Like energizer bunny. Now, if GM built vehicles (Suburban in my possible wants) that I felt had that reliability, I could be tempted to try American again.
"The rights to his short-lived DeLorean Motor Company have been acquired by a tiny firm based outside Houston, which still supplies parts to the stainless steel DMC-12 gullwing sports car that was designed by Giugiaro and built in limited quantities in Northern Ireland in 1981-82."
DeLorean Wants To Revive the Pontiac Solstice (Inside Line)
General Motors Co., working to cut its U.S. brand count in half as part of its restructuring, is trying to complete a deal to sell Hummer to China's Sichuan Tengzhong Heavy Industrial Machinery Co. for about $150 million, Bloomberg News reported Thursday.
The companies hope to make a deal today or tomorrow for the SUV brand, Bloomberg said, citing three unnamed sources.
GM said in June that it expected to sell Hummer to the Chinese heavy machinery maker, which has no experience in the auto industry.
Hummer spokesman Nick Richards declined to comment. A source close to the sale said GM expects it to close "any day."
GM had estimated in the summer of 2008 that the sale of Hummer “might realize $500 million or more,” CEO Fritz Henderson said in documents filed during the automaker's 39-day bankruptcy.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20091009/CARNEWS/910099998
Or maybe I should say it AINT worth peanuts! :-P
And it's going to a Chinese company that has no experience in the auto industry. THAT bodes well for the garganta-brand.....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The "old GM" is finding out that most of the brands it thought were such huge assets are essentially worthless. I suppose the damage to creditors and suppliers was already done, though, when the bankruptcy occurred. So it doesn't really matter how much if anything they get for brands like Hummer and Saturn now.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Regards,
OW