You are right, but more and more people who moves from GM, Chrysler or Ford to German or Japanese cars. I don't understand why Big3 doesn't build good rwd cars like BMW/Nissan/Lexus
Actually... I think they lost some sleep over looming bankruptcies that were threatening their existance for the last 5 years. If not for the bailouts last year, they'd of lost EVEN MORE sleep. :mad:
Also, I've stated before what it would take for Chrysler to WIN me back as a customer. I've outlined the policies and warranties they'd have to provide.
They keep dancing around the requirements to bring customers like me back with half-baked ideas or half-[non-permissible content removed] efforts to do something crazy thinking customers will compromise.
Fake lifetime warranties and 60 day trial periods won't do it. My plan of refunding the purchase price of your "reason to hate them" or a graduated ever increasing rebate system for however many warranty visits your vehicle requires, will work to bring back customers. Can they afford it? Probably not.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Since GM isn't on my list of trustworthy companies, I would rather save myself from the pain of a potential legal battle and the stress that would add to my life.
You don't trust US Fed as 60 percent company owner? Look, Obama will stand behind GM and Whitacre. Go ahead, try out a new Lacrosse. GM probably counting on very miniscule amount of people that might be disgruntled. They are probably troublemakers anyway.
"......or a graduated ever increasing rebate system for however many warranty visits your vehicle requires, will work to bring back customers."
Don't you think that would open up a can of worms, with dishonest people coming in with phoney "squeaks" and "rattles" that they "heard while driving" but is mysteriously not there at the dealer? Or maybe the owner "hears" it but the mechanic doesn't?? It's one thing to offer a rebate because after 3 months the A/C doesn't work or the tranny lets go, but there has to be a threshhold to qualify.
You are right, but more and more people who moves from GM, Chrysler or Ford to German or Japanese cars. I don't understand why Big3 doesn't build good rwd cars like BMW/Nissan/Lexus
So what GM/Ford/Chrysler model would get dumped/cross shopped for a Lexus LS? Or an IS even? I think the LS is close to 1.5x the most expensive D3. Are you suggesting that they design and build more aspirational vehicles? More Cadillacs, Chryslers, and Lincolns?
I think this title goes to Lincoln MKS now. Sorry Cadillac! The STS is getting old and outdated, and its V-8 can't match the Lincoln's powerful and efficient ecoboost. The Lincoln is also spacious and well built. True, the MKS has a long way to go, But as far as American luxury cars go, we have the MKS now. The CTS is a better all-around car, but that's near luxury.
So what GM/Ford/Chrysler model would get dumped/cross shopped for a Lexus LS? Or an IS even? I think the LS is close to 1.5x the most expensive D3.
Oh really???? I suppose you completely forgot XLR's $80-95k and Escalade's roughly $65-70k sticker then. :P Or perhaps you don't consider them D3 models?
Are you suggesting that they design and build more aspirational vehicles? More Cadillacs, Chryslers, and Lincolns?
Imports design and build more aspirational vehicles? Yes. I can count with my 10 fingers aspirational models currently coming from D3, and that's not a good thing.
Vette and CTS are 2 fine designs, but sold by a company that's hard to trust or to rely on (yes, even with 60% fed ownership). Well, at the very least we got Ford, which seems more trustworty than GM these days.
Whoa.... I knew Escalade Platinum costs a lot, but never thought it'd reach 85k.... that's such a no brainer, I'd pick a Range Rover or a MB GL-class anytime... $115k for an XLR? Sorry, GM, I'd rather buy a 911 for $80k and keep the change :P
Anyway, the point remains, it's impossible that Lexus LS costs 1.5 times as much as the most expensive D3 when D3 got Escalade, XLR, and Corvetter ZR1 :P
$85K is laughable for a vehicle that is still based off of a pickup truck and has a glorified ox cart rear suspension (I know it has the magnetic fluid shocks). IMO that's about $40k more than it's worth. While I like my current 07 Expedition and the 07 and newer Suburban, I'd buy a MB GL or Range Rover if I was going to spend $60k plus.
I bet they don't sell many Platinum Edition 'Slades.
what GM/Ford/Chrysler model would get dumped/cross shopped for a Lexus LS? Or an IS even? I think the LS is close to 1.5x the most expensive D3.
Oh really???? I suppose you completely forgot XLR's $80-95k and Escalade's roughly $65-70k sticker then. Or perhaps you don't consider them D3 models?
No, I just don't consider those to be cross shopped with RWD sleepy-mobiles, which was the OP's comment.
Are you suggesting that they design and build more aspirational vehicles? More Cadillacs, Chryslers, and Lincolns?
Imports design and build more aspirational vehicles? Yes. I can count with my 10 fingers aspirational models currently coming from D3, and that's not a good thing.
Okay, and how many Lexus aspirational vehicles can you count?
Or Infiniti?
Or Acura (yeah we are all really stretching on this one)
Aspirational vehicles coming from the Japanese? Hmm.... if it's only among Lexus-Infiniti-Acura then I can still count it with my 2 hands, though it takes more fingers than D3, LOL... :P If you want me to consider all Japanese makes in US (which is fairer as there are just as many domestic brands), then no, 2 hands aren't enough...
German3, now that I definitely can't count with my 2 hands...
I get two from Japan - you need to remember Infiniti. Their large sedans are also quite decent. Audi also makes a large car as well, and so does Volvo. But you're right, there aren't that many left.
I guess you're missing the fact that the Jaguar XJ was redesigned for 2010. It probably is a better value (cost, power, large size (but lightweight), and exclusivity) than anything you listed.
The CTS, the new Taurus, Flex(awesome and very versatile cars two of my customers have purchased them as the new family hauler)
Cobalt SS(dominated cars twice its price in whatever track day event R&T or C&D did)
The Corvette is still the best bang for you buck performance car even if it is a bit too large for my taste.
The new Wranglers are great vehicles and the new Grand Cherokee is growing in me but I still miss the solid axles and inline six. I would prefer a 2004 MY Grand Cherokee personally.
The 300 is a good car just long in the tooth and needs a redesign.
Yup. Even the previous generation XJ is a better car then any of the cars you listed Lemko and you would hate the 7 series.
Check out those fuel economy stats. The XJ8L gets better fuel economy then anything else in its class by far and has more interior space then all of them but the 750IL.
The Jag beats the Caddy by 1 mpg, but the premium fuel requirement more than offsets the difference. Premium runs 20-30 cents a gallon more than regular.
GTR is definitely on the aspirational lists. Like I said, if I have to choose from all US market Japanese makes, then 10 fingers aren't enough...
G37, FX, NSX, GTR, Z, S2000, WRX, Evo, RX8, Mazda6, Mazda3, just to name a few....
While with D3, I can only think of: Vette, Camaro, Viper, Mustang, CTS, Fusion. That's it..... Equinox is a fine car, and Malibu is ok, but far away from aspirational IMO. Oh and I excluded GT40, it's already an exotic car...
I agree. Cobalt still has a looonng way to go to compete with Mazda3, the car I consider best in class. Heck I don't think it can even surpass Civic and Jetta...
And if aspirational means it has to be a first rate (global class, not just good) product, then GM has only Corvette and CTS, Ford has Fusion and to some degree Flex (overpriced though, IMO). Meanwhile Chrysler has... uh, none... :P
So what GM/Ford/Chrysler model would get dumped/cross shopped for a Lexus LS? I don't know, I don't like big cars. GM/Ford/Chrysler have nothing like 135i, 335i, G37, IS350, A5/S5 & etc.
Infiniti hasn't been a choice for me since they dropped the Q45 which I considered the Lexus LS' closest competitor. The M45 is too small - closer to the Lexus GS series.
I feel the XJ is more of a woman's car. I know I have a hard time prying my girlfriend wife out of it at the Philly Auto Show. Somebody mentioned Audi. The A8 is more my kind of car, but the repair and maintenance costs of an upper-end Audi frighten me, especially as the car ages.
The A8 is more my kind of car, but the repair and maintenance costs of an upper-end Audi frighten me, especially as the car ages.
I like the A8 too, but like you, fear the thought of maintenance/repair costs. I guess this is the type of car that you're better off just leasing for a couple years, and then trading in?
Yeah, a buddy of mine leases an A8 every couple of years. Wonderful car but I'd be leasing that one rather than owning it myself if I had that kind of money.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
The Jag beats the Caddy by 1 mpg, but the premium fuel requirement more than offsets the difference.
If you're going to spend the money on an aspirational vehicle, then I'd think you'd want to use premium if not for the additional power, at least to get the higher detergent levels in many premium-gases. Similiarly you can put Walmart oil and oil filters in your $70K car, but there might be some benefits to using better products. If you want the cheapest driving experience then why would anyone consider an aspirational vehicle.
Plus it will drive better then that old STS platform for not too much more money. Low to mid 60s for the Jag low to mid 50's for the caddy. Even the larger XJ8 weighs a few hundred lbs less then the STS.
Exactly right. The D3 cars are second rate against all competitors in the entry level premium market. The CTS is getting there but off a few notches at the moment.
Lincoln is quite a few notches behind, as usual. And don't get me started on the Taurus SHO. Another typical disappointment when the opportunity was perfect for a home run.
get the higher detergent levels in many premium-gases
That's just not true any more. In fact, some of the brand names are advertising the cleaning capabilities of all their gasoline. Also, higher octane than required can actually degrade your performance, especially in winter. There is no reason you can't design relatively high performance engines that use regular fuel. Its already being done.
There is no reason you can't design relatively high performance engines that use regular fuel.
Relatively is a subjective word, so I don't know what a "relatively high performance engine" means to you. Obviously not the same as me or most people here.
The aspirational vehicles with high performance engines use premium unleaded so that they can run high compression in their engines. GM's Corvette, Camaro SS, CTS-V, and 2.0L turbos use premium, and 87 octane would only be used in an emergency.
But the price difference between regular and premium isn't much. $2-$3/week is $150/year; not much when you're talking aspirational-vehicles which are $50K+. If you're buying an aspirational vehicle you're insurance, gas, repairs and depreciation are going to be high. If you want to keep your costs low go buy a 3-year old Impala.
And sure - all brands have some detergents in all the grades. It's just that many brands have higher levels of detergent in their premium grades. The pumps in my area show they have a higher detergent level (believe it's Shell and Mobil).
There ARE reasons that high performance engines work best with premium grade fuel. In fact, as far as I know I don't see even a single actual high performance engine that runs on regular anywhere on this planet.
Higher octane than recommended may cause problems, but not degrading performance. It usually applies to older engines which sometimes have parts that aren't suitable to be exposed to high octane fuels.
@British_Rover: Cobalt SS has one thing: speed. Yeah taht much I admit. But seriously, it's lagging against competitors in every other aspect.
There ARE reasons that high performance engines work best with premium grade fuel. In fact, as far as I know I don't see even a single actual high performance engine that runs on regular anywhere on this planet.
All of the EcoBoost engines are designed to run on regular (non-premium) unleaded fuel.
Hence the name: ECO as opposed to SS (Super Sport).
This might explain it some regarding the SHO: (Automobile)
Ford's installed a twin-turbocharged, direct-injection 3.5-liter V-6 from its Ecoboost engine range. Although its rating of 365 hp is hardly anything to sneeze at (that's a 50-hp advantage over the 2010 Mustang GT's V-8), we're a bit reluctant to call it a "Super High Output" motor. Perhaps "Slightly Higher Output" is more appropriate - after all, it's a 10-hp boost over similar engines installed in the Lincoln MKS.
By the way, in order to get peak performance, Ford recommends using premium fuel on the Ecoboost engines.
This might explain it some regarding the SHO: (Automobile)
Ford's installed a twin-turbocharged, direct-injection 3.5-liter V-6 from its Ecoboost engine range. Although its rating of 365 hp is hardly anything to sneeze at (that's a 50-hp advantage over the 2010 Mustang GT's V-8), we're a bit reluctant to call it a "Super High Output" motor. Perhaps "Slightly Higher Output" is more appropriate - after all, it's a 10-hp boost over similar engines installed in the Lincoln MKS.
From an industry standpoint, anything >10 hp/liter is high output
365 hp/3.5 liter > 10 hp/liter
In fact, that implies that the MKS is also at 355 hp.
Corvette engines run fine on 87 octane, especially in cool weather. 3 examples: LT1, LS1, LS2... Does 400 HP LS2 qualify as high-performance, m4d? Maybe a 400 HP LS2 power drops to a mere 390 hp with 87 octane IF the weather is warm. Not a problem. Mine gets 10% increase in mpg with southeast USA 87 octane no-ethanol gasoline compared to northeast USA 91 octane (E10). One of the autorags did some bench V8 tests with octane a few years ago and their results indicated similarly. Even Ferrari and all other super/sportscar warranties still apply if you run the car on 87 octane all the time. Now that's confidence! Get out there and save $4 per tank and buy yourself a largest-possible high-octane premium coffee like I do!
I think you meant 100HP/Liter. 10HP/Liter is a tad low.
Yup, thanks. I think the Integra Type R from 99 or 2000 was 190 hp from 1.8 Liters naturally aspirated. That is kind of my benchmark. A few cars back I had a Reliant with the 2.6 liter Mitsubishi motor...I think that was more like the 10 hp/liter motor.
Ecoboost are a nice tech but far from high performance. It's nice to be able to save the cash from the Premium hit. You can't do that with the German cars or at least shouldn't. On the critical side, this tech should have been out there years ago in the U.S. manufacturing circuit. No excuses.
My 2003 Denali can do both and I only used 2 tanks of premium just to see the difference. I can get all of the 320 HP it's rated at with the super juice. I would not rate the 6.0 litre in this truck as hp either. The best thing is the 365 lb/ft that can snap your neck.
Comments
Also, I've stated before what it would take for Chrysler to WIN me back as a customer. I've outlined the policies and warranties they'd have to provide.
They keep dancing around the requirements to bring customers like me back with half-baked ideas or half-[non-permissible content removed] efforts to do something crazy thinking customers will compromise.
Fake lifetime warranties and 60 day trial periods won't do it. My plan of refunding the purchase price of your "reason to hate them" or a graduated ever increasing rebate system for however many warranty visits your vehicle requires, will work to bring back customers. Can they afford it? Probably not.
You don't trust US Fed as 60 percent company owner? Look, Obama will stand behind GM and Whitacre. Go ahead, try out a new Lacrosse. GM probably counting on very miniscule amount of people that might be disgruntled. They are probably troublemakers anyway.
Don't you think that would open up a can of worms, with dishonest people coming in with phoney "squeaks" and "rattles" that they "heard while driving" but is mysteriously not there at the dealer? Or maybe the owner "hears" it but the mechanic doesn't?? It's one thing to offer a rebate because after 3 months the A/C doesn't work or the tranny lets go, but there has to be a threshhold to qualify.
You are right, but more and more people who moves from GM, Chrysler or Ford to German or Japanese cars. I don't understand why Big3 doesn't build good rwd cars like BMW/Nissan/Lexus
So what GM/Ford/Chrysler model would get dumped/cross shopped for a Lexus LS? Or an IS even? I think the LS is close to 1.5x the most expensive D3. Are you suggesting that they design and build more aspirational vehicles? More Cadillacs, Chryslers, and Lincolns?
Oh really???? I suppose you completely forgot XLR's $80-95k and Escalade's roughly $65-70k sticker then. :P
Or perhaps you don't consider them D3 models?
Are you suggesting that they design and build more aspirational vehicles? More Cadillacs, Chryslers, and Lincolns?
Imports design and build more aspirational vehicles? Yes. I can count with my 10 fingers aspirational models currently coming from D3, and that's not a good thing.
Vette and CTS are 2 fine designs, but sold by a company that's hard to trust or to rely on (yes, even with 60% fed ownership). Well, at the very least we got Ford, which seems more trustworty than GM these days.
Anyway, the point remains, it's impossible that Lexus LS costs 1.5 times as much as the most expensive D3 when D3 got Escalade, XLR, and Corvetter ZR1 :P
I bet they don't sell many Platinum Edition 'Slades.
Oh really???? I suppose you completely forgot XLR's $80-95k and Escalade's roughly $65-70k sticker then.
Or perhaps you don't consider them D3 models?
No, I just don't consider those to be cross shopped with RWD sleepy-mobiles, which was the OP's comment.
Are you suggesting that they design and build more aspirational vehicles? More Cadillacs, Chryslers, and Lincolns?
Imports design and build more aspirational vehicles? Yes. I can count with my 10 fingers aspirational models currently coming from D3, and that's not a good thing.
Okay, and how many Lexus aspirational vehicles can you count?
Or Infiniti?
Or Acura (yeah we are all really stretching on this one)
Lets see, hmm about enough for my 10 fingers.
None. AFAIC, there is no reason to cross shop any D3. Off the table to begin with.
Regards,
OW
Overpriced junk, afaic.
Regards,
OW
If you want me to consider all Japanese makes in US (which is fairer as there are just as many domestic brands), then no, 2 hands aren't enough...
German3, now that I definitely can't count with my 2 hands...
GM: Buick Lucerne CXS, Cadillac DTS, Cadillac STS, Cadillac CTS
Ford: Lincoln Town Car (can I still get one?)
Chrysler: Chrysler 300-C SRT8
Domestic = 6 choices
BMW: 7-Series
Mercedes-Benz: E-Class, S-Class
German = 3 choices
Lexus: LS460
Japanese: 1 choice
The CTS, the new Taurus, Flex(awesome and very versatile cars two of my customers have purchased them as the new family hauler)
Cobalt SS(dominated cars twice its price in whatever track day event R&T or C&D did)
The Corvette is still the best bang for you buck performance car even if it is a bit too large for my taste.
The new Wranglers are great vehicles and the new Grand Cherokee is growing in me but I still miss the solid axles and inline six. I would prefer a 2004 MY Grand Cherokee personally.
The 300 is a good car just long in the tooth and needs a redesign.
That is just off the top of my head.
Check out those fuel economy stats. The XJ8L gets better fuel economy then anything else in its class by far and has more interior space then all of them but the 750IL.
Cobalt? You've got to lower your expectations a whole lot in that class if Cobalt is high on your list.
Serious.
Regards,
OW
G37, FX, NSX, GTR, Z, S2000, WRX, Evo, RX8, Mazda6, Mazda3, just to name a few....
While with D3, I can only think of: Vette, Camaro, Viper, Mustang, CTS, Fusion.
That's it..... Equinox is a fine car, and Malibu is ok, but far away from aspirational IMO. Oh and I excluded GT40, it's already an exotic car...
And if aspirational means it has to be a first rate (global class, not just good) product, then GM has only Corvette and CTS, Ford has Fusion and to some degree Flex (overpriced though, IMO). Meanwhile Chrysler has... uh, none... :P
I don't know, I don't like big cars. GM/Ford/Chrysler have nothing like 135i, 335i, G37, IS350, A5/S5 & etc.
girlfriendwife out of it at the Philly Auto Show. Somebody mentioned Audi. The A8 is more my kind of car, but the repair and maintenance costs of an upper-end Audi frighten me, especially as the car ages.I like the A8 too, but like you, fear the thought of maintenance/repair costs. I guess this is the type of car that you're better off just leasing for a couple years, and then trading in?
I tend to see a lot more 10 year old S and 7er in daily service than A8, too. The new ones might be better than the old ones, but it has to be a risk.
If you're going to spend the money on an aspirational vehicle, then I'd think you'd want to use premium if not for the additional power, at least to get the higher detergent levels in many premium-gases.
Similiarly you can put Walmart oil and oil filters in your $70K car, but there might be some benefits to using better products.
If you want the cheapest driving experience then why would anyone consider an aspirational vehicle.
The XJ8L has six more inches of wheelbase.
The regular XJ8 has three more inches.
Plus it will drive better then that old STS platform for not too much more money. Low to mid 60s for the Jag low to mid 50's for the caddy. Even the larger XJ8 weighs a few hundred lbs less then the STS.
http://www.cars.com/go/compare/trimCompare.jsp?acodes=USB90CAC141B0,USB90JAC101A- 0,USB90JAC101B0
260 turbocharged direct injected horsepower. Absolutely destroys cars twice its price.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/08q4/the_lightning_lap_2008-feature/ll1_3a_- 2008_chevrolet_cobalt_ss_page_2
Regards,
OW
Lincoln is quite a few notches behind, as usual. And don't get me started on the Taurus SHO. Another typical disappointment when the opportunity was perfect for a home run.
Regards,
OW
OW
Yuch!
Nice!
Regards,
OW
That's just not true any more. In fact, some of the brand names are advertising the cleaning capabilities of all their gasoline. Also, higher octane than required can actually degrade your performance, especially in winter. There is no reason you can't design relatively high performance engines that use regular fuel. Its already being done.
Relatively is a subjective word, so I don't know what a "relatively high performance engine" means to you. Obviously not the same as me or most people here.
The aspirational vehicles with high performance engines use premium unleaded so that they can run high compression in their engines. GM's Corvette, Camaro SS, CTS-V, and 2.0L turbos use premium, and 87 octane would only be used in an emergency.
But the price difference between regular and premium isn't much. $2-$3/week is $150/year; not much when you're talking aspirational-vehicles which are $50K+. If you're buying an aspirational vehicle you're insurance, gas, repairs and depreciation are going to be high. If you want to keep your costs low go buy a 3-year old Impala.
And sure - all brands have some detergents in all the grades. It's just that many brands have higher levels of detergent in their premium grades. The pumps in my area show they have a higher detergent level (believe it's Shell and Mobil).
I personally think the new Taurus is way overhyped. Heck, the G8 and Chrysler 300C are still the better choices IMO...
Higher octane than recommended may cause problems, but not degrading performance. It usually applies to older engines which sometimes have parts that aren't suitable to be exposed to high octane fuels.
@British_Rover: Cobalt SS has one thing: speed. Yeah taht much I admit. But seriously, it's lagging against competitors in every other aspect.
All of the EcoBoost engines are designed to run on regular (non-premium) unleaded fuel.
This might explain it some regarding the SHO: (Automobile)
Ford's installed a twin-turbocharged, direct-injection 3.5-liter V-6 from its Ecoboost engine range. Although its rating of 365 hp is hardly anything to sneeze at (that's a 50-hp advantage over the 2010 Mustang GT's V-8), we're a bit reluctant to call it a "Super High Output" motor. Perhaps "Slightly Higher Output" is more appropriate - after all, it's a 10-hp boost over similar engines installed in the Lincoln MKS.
By the way, in order to get peak performance, Ford recommends using premium fuel on the Ecoboost engines.
Regards,
OW
This might explain it some regarding the SHO: (Automobile)
Ford's installed a twin-turbocharged, direct-injection 3.5-liter V-6 from its Ecoboost engine range. Although its rating of 365 hp is hardly anything to sneeze at (that's a 50-hp advantage over the 2010 Mustang GT's V-8), we're a bit reluctant to call it a "Super High Output" motor. Perhaps "Slightly Higher Output" is more appropriate - after all, it's a 10-hp boost over similar engines installed in the Lincoln MKS.
From an industry standpoint, anything >10 hp/liter is high output
365 hp/3.5 liter > 10 hp/liter
In fact, that implies that the MKS is also at 355 hp.
==================================
I think you meant 100HP/Liter. 10HP/Liter is a tad low.
3 examples: LT1, LS1, LS2...
Does 400 HP LS2 qualify as high-performance, m4d?
Maybe a 400 HP LS2 power drops to a mere 390 hp with 87 octane IF the weather is warm. Not a problem.
Mine gets 10% increase in mpg with southeast USA 87 octane no-ethanol gasoline compared to northeast USA 91 octane (E10).
One of the autorags did some bench V8 tests with octane a few years ago and their results indicated similarly.
Even Ferrari and all other super/sportscar warranties still apply if you run the car on 87 octane all the time. Now that's confidence! Get out there and save $4 per tank and buy yourself a largest-possible high-octane premium coffee like I do!
==================================
I think you meant 100HP/Liter. 10HP/Liter is a tad low.
Yup, thanks.
My 2003 Denali can do both and I only used 2 tanks of premium just to see the difference. I can get all of the 320 HP it's rated at with the super juice. I would not rate the 6.0 litre in this truck as hp either. The best thing is the 365 lb/ft that can snap your neck.
Regards,
OW