I bought my first Corvette when I was 57. I hope this was a 'mid-life' crisis - as that means I will live until 114-ish.... I had not been married for almost 15 years prior... And I drove mine daily - only vehicle. - Ray But don't fit "The Profile" in other areas as well.... [ Like: Not rich ]
"..... A single scratch /dent/bump/chip can run more than $200 at the dealer easily.. And the funny part is the dealer decides on the price of this repair.. And guess what ,he will estimate it <200--Ya,right?? 3. If the car is involved in any accident,it is ineligible.. So basically this program is all air and no substance.."
So.....let me get this straight. Buy a Vette, drag race it, fish tail into a pole and YOU think GM should take it back??
A single scratch WASN'T THERE when you took delivery, nor should it be there if you return it.
".....Also, who is absorbing the huge hit of driving the thing off the lot. It is no longer new! You drive a GM off the lot, and you've lost thousands already! "
GM absorbs it. You return it, you get ALL your money back, including sales tax.
Forget Corevettes -they are a bit player sales wise... This is about Chevy`s mostly as they are the sales leader for GM... Also,c`mon get real-- You don`t get a single scratch/dent/chip when you drive??? So that means you should not drive it at all - Any road you drive,any highway you take ,you can get some rock chips on the bumper... And unless you park your car in the bedroom -you don't get a single scratch/dent?? How about parking publicly,at the supermarket at the work place??? Even cars parked at dealerships get dents and scratches !! :P You take your car for service and they jack it up and open and close the doors and they dont get a single scratch--right??
And no one is talking of racing here- far far from it... Just regular driving on highways and roads -- you can get rock chips,taking your car for service,,parking it anywhere !!!... :shades:
So in order to be eligible for the offer-- you should drive it in a temperature controlled area ,air must be free of any particles,roads made of shatterproof glass and park in a carpeted enclosed garage ??? I qualify for this !!
".....Also,c`mon get real-- You don`t get a single scratch/dent/chip when you drive??? "
I think you are overstating it. If they were that picayune over every little thing, you would have heard people screaming bloody blue murder over it.
Look at Hyundai Assurance. It only covers you for $7500 (including depreciation) Any damage over that YOU own. You also don't get any money you put down on it or any payments you've made (you must make 2 and be up to date) or your sales tax back, either.
At this time, nearly 2 years later I have only 1 dent on my 08 GM car. However, this 1 dent came from the dealer. It was not mine! I didn't even say anything, because I didn't see it when I checked the car out before leaving the lot. My 06 Accord has 0 dents on it when I traded it! But, I am a complete freak about my cars. But, honestly, I don't have nearly as much pride in my GM car as I did with my Accord. I don't think I would go as crazy if I got another dent, With GM, for me, a slight lack of pride. Not to mention GM wants you to buy a GM product, but smacks you in the face with a hit in depreciation that nearly wipes you out. Nothing to back up your money. Only years later when the thing is falling apart.
Ha, well luckily I lease. My fellow friend drives the same model. She has a massive loan!! Oops!
At this time, nearly 2 years later I have only 1 dent on my 08 GM car. However, this 1 dent came from the dealer. It was not mine! I didn't even say anything, because I didn't see it when I checked the car out before leaving the lot. My 06 Accord has 0 dents on it when I traded it! But, I am a complete freak about my cars.
I take it you don't have kids;) Nothing scarier than an excited 6 year old opening their door in a parking lot.
Honestly, I don't own anything car wise I care enough about to get bent out of shape over dents and dings. My wife has a company car, so I could care less about it and my 07 Expedition is simply a tool to haul the family, dog, and the boat to the lake. It has a few minor dings and dents, you name it, it's been spilled in it, heck, I think the dog even crapped in it once. That's why at this point, I buy them used, because it will get abused in our household.
I know some people don't allow drinks in their cars, but we take to many hour + drives for that to be feasible and I'm sure not going to stop and wait for everyone to have a drink or eat while we are on our way somewhere. Besides, if it gets dropped, the dog will eat it! LOL
lol haha. I have eaten in my GM car, but it has leather. Not as worried. I even brought a dog in the car. No a big deal. But if it were my Honda. Uh NO!! lol. I loved that car. I do not have the kind of love for this car...lol If you can actually love a car. Its material. But, when you work hard for your money. I want something to show it. lol
Oh well. Its just a car, but when your money going to it, and it isn't matching what it is supposed to offer, what their claiming.....then that is an issue!
But if it were my Honda. Uh NO!! lol. I loved that car. I do not have the kind of love for this car...lol If you can actually love a car. Its material. But, when you work hard for your money. I want something to show it. lol
I understand 100%! If I had a 5 series or even a luxury SUV like a MB GL320CDI, my level of patience and tolerance would change drastically.
is reporting that they have announced the starting prices for the new Regal: $27 grand for the CXL with the 2.4, and $30 grand for the turbo.
At those prices, they have significantly undercut their potential competitors like the S60 and the Acura TL, I would think. Even the TSX is close to $30 grand now, with the 200 hp four. I would be interested in a back to back between those two actually: Regal CXL vs TSX (vs S60, also vs Passat perhaps).
Will Buick be able to attract Volvo/VW/Acura customers? Most of that crowd are pretty loyal to their chosen brand I think, although Acura sales are way off so Buick could certainly find some converts there.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Autoweek is reporting that they have announced the starting prices for the new Regal: $27 grand for the CXL with the 2.4, and $30 grand for the turbo.
The 2.4 is the same engine that's found in the Malibu, right? The one with 182HP? And the turbo will have around 240HP?
Wonder what options will be available and at what cost?
If these numbers are MSRP, the Regal might have a chance. I believe the transaction prices for the TSX are in the high 20's (check the "Prices Paid" board for more info).
Will Buick be able to attract Volvo/VW/Acura customers?
That, my friend, is the $64,000 question. If GM can build the Regal with enough sportiness baked into its DNA, then back it with a killer warranty - why GM hasn't emulated Hyundai in this aspect I'll never understand - they might have a winner on their hands.
More fun than a Malibu, but not quite as expensive as whatever Cadillac might offer underneath the CTS range. Truly what the multi brand strategy is meant to do.
What would be awesome is for GM to offer and coupe and/or a wagon variant of the Regal, so as to have something other than a sedan.
But look at the weight of comparable sedans - TSX is at 3600 pounds or so, with 200 hp in a low-torque application, Passat is at the same weight with the high-torque turbo (which I believe runs on 87 octane) making 200 hp, for slightly less money, and the new S60 is also very similar (and that one requires premium also, I believe) only it actually costs significantly more.
This IS the near-lux, sportyish market of 2010. Regal has certainly hit the sweet spot of performance and price, maybe even undercut the competition in price, IF IF IF IF the performance is really there.
That's why I want to see a four-way comparo of these guys... :-)
This class will always be limited by its FWD. I can get more serious RWD models for about $32-35K, so that marks the effective price cap for these near-luxes.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"..... This class will always be limited by its FWD. I can get more sport-oriented RWD models for about $32-35K, so that marks the effective price cap for these near-luxes. "
Supposedly, the AWD version will allow 100% torque application to the rear wheels.
The turbo will be 220HP and require 91 octane premium fuel to make that. At 3700 lbs it will not be a performer.
Why'd they detune it? It made 260HP in the HHR and Cobalt SS.
I know that 3700 pounds is heavy, but it seems like everything in this mid-size class is around that weight. My '03 L300 V6 is just under 3200 pounds, and the Aura came in at between 36-3700.
I don't think GM is looking for an all out performance car, but rather something that is fun and sporty; they are trying, as pointed out above, to lure the buyer who would be tempted by a TSX, IS250 (yes, RWD), S60, or former Saab 9-3 buyer.
Isn't Infiniti coming out with a G25, which has a 2.5L V6 engine?
If these numbers are MSRP, the Regal might have a chance. I believe the transaction prices for the TSX are in the high 20's (check the "Prices Paid" board for more info).
But GM will fail.
For $30K, you can get a TSX, pretty much loaded(no nav, but factory nav systems are 10x the cost of a good consumer unit and work half as well).
It comes with everything else, though. There are no options, because it's all included.
GM, otoh, hasn't figured out a way to build a car that doesn't have 20% in options that you have to grind through and chose. Want leather? $$$(have to buy a luxury package) Want Fog lights? $$$(have to buy a sport package) Want better audio? $$$(have to buy a premium package)
So it's really a $35K loaded Buick versus a 30K loaded TSX. I know which one is also better built and has a better interior, because the TSX comes out ahead in a side-by-side test of the last generation CTS versus it, and there's no way in hell that GM will make the Regal any better - it has to be lower quality than the new CTS and new Lucerne.
The previous generation CTS is therefore a likely good yardstick for interior quality and features.
Always trying to catch up and equal the imports but never really beating them. GM fails again.
Don't forget, these initial cars are not the one to watch. This one is:
Packing a turbocharged 2.0-liter four-cylinder engine, the same unit destined for the Regal CXL but with output dialled up to 255-horsepower and 295-pound-feet of torque, the new Regal GS should easily eclipse the 60 mph mark in less than 6 seconds.
The weight still will detract from the performance substantially, however.
A 2.0T VW engine will out shine a GM 2.0T any day. In terms of quality and drive. Sure they have their own issues(not perfect) But, a GM turbo? hmm? I am not sure people looking for a VW, Audi, Acura will be crossing over to a GM. If they do, GM will need more than a price cut to get it. GM compared to the other companies are on an entirely different class level. Not to mention lack of confidence in quality and life of the car. Priced way too high when compared.
Again, how many more cars is GM going to offer? I thought they were supposed to be downsizing? Do we really need yet another car or SUV, CUV? And to think I am still supporting their habit. I thought GM already had their intervention? Oops! They had a relapse.
At those prices, they have significantly undercut their potential competitors like the S60 and the Acura TL
I think the new Regal looks nice and has some potential, but I kind of equate it more with Camry XLE or Accord EX. It doesn't really strike me as a near luxury model that much, but the Lincoln MKZ doesn't either. They are nice vehicles, but I guess time will tell.
Or you can buy a Subaru Legacy w/the 3.6L engine (auto) or the turbo 2.5L (manual) and AWD for $25K or $26K.
If you want something fairly sporty there's also the Nissan Maxima. So there is a lot of competition in this segment that the Buick Regal would be going into.
They'll have a sales-success for the first 2 months, then it'll be 20K units per year.
What baseball player said "hit 'em where they ain't"? Well GM should start taking that advice, and find some niches. I suggest they start looking into making 3-wheel vehicles that sell for under $10K, as one idea. Maybe small diesel pickups would be another market not being served. I'm talking PU's ranging from 150" - 180".
They'll have a sales-success for the first 2 months, then it'll be 20K units per year.
Nah, they'll add some incentives and make it a decent challenger to comparable Camry and Accord, presuming it has quality levels similar to the big Buicks rather than Chevy.
Camry V-6? Numb EVERYTHING, hard plastics to buff up your elbows? It may be fast in a straight line but that's ALL it has going for it besides cash incentives.
Maxima? The overly bloated, CVT-only, joke of a former sport sedan?
If the new Regal can't give the driver a better experience than that pair (and Accord EX), then GM really ought to throw in the towel right now.
Now I haven't driven the MKS, or T, or X, whatever melange of capital letters specifies the new Lincoln sedan, so I forgot to include that one earlier, but I think GM is well-positioned vs the Lincoln too.
It will all come down to whether or not GM has truly made this new Regal a worthy near-lux sport sedan, or just another squish-mobile like the Camry. If it's just a Camry by another name, my prediction is Buick will be gone from our shores within a few years. Why keep it in that case? Chevy has it covered.
So I will withhold judgment until I see that 4-way comparo (actually with an Accord and a Legacy thrown in, it's up to what, a 6-way comparo?)...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"will all come down to whether or not GM has truly made this new Regal a worthy near-lux sport sedan, or just another squish-mobile like the Camry. If it's just a Camry by another name"
The Regal won't be another Camry as it was designed with Europe in mind. But with 182hp, not only is it less powerful than the TSX, but also than the Accord EX (192hp). Further, the new Sonata will have a standard 200hp. I knew GM would screw up somewhere. Anyway, the Regal has got to be best in class in order to take off.
That's what GM still needs to grasp, IMHO. Being just as good or a completely viable alternative isn't good enough. To get people to change, you have to be better, not just equal. They've made a big jump from often-subpar to often-equal...but there's still another step after that.
To get people to change, you have to be better, not just equal. They've made a big jump from often-subpar to often-equal...but there's still another step after that.
So, would you say that the above statement applies to Hyundai? That they have a "better" product than Toyota or Honda?
Lots of folks have switched allegiances from Toy / Hon to Hyundai, but I'm not sure I'm convinced that the product is superior. The change in warranty has certainly helped increase customer confidence.
I think the at least similar product being slightly cheaper with a superior warranty makes it "better" in the eyes of some. I guess there's more to it than the raw machine. 'Just as good' doesn't win new customers...something extra has to exist.
plekkie, since you are so confident GM will fail, please tell me approximately when it will fail so I know when to buy my last corvette/camaro/whatever? Or is your prediction merely that GM will fail some time before time & the universe "end"?
That they have a "better" product than Toyota or Honda?
The product is similar and near equal. But the Hyundai is a better VALUE - what you get relative to what you pay for - as it is less costly and has a better warranty.
Several weeks ago during the last days of Saturn and Pontiac when there were $6,500 and $7,000 rebates on the remaining cars, I asked everyone here who went and bought one. They should be a great value, right. I didn't see a single post of anyone who thought it was worthwhile to get a shiny new car. I looked at the G5 and got a price, looked at some Solstices and Skys, a Vue, and a G8, and I still couldn't pull the trigger - I didn't think they were a good value. And this had nothing to do with fear of warranty which I know GM will support, or even trade-in-value as I would probably kkeep it for a good while.
Oh and I also perused a convertible - I looked at the sticker on a G6 convertible which was like $34K! and said holy ______. No wonder they're going out of business!
" I looked at the G5 and got a price, looked at some Solstices and Skys, a Vue, and a G8, and I still couldn't pull the trigger - I didn't think they were a good value"
Why did you not think the G8 was a 'good value'? I believe that my 2009 G8 GT is an exceptional value - given what else is available in the RWD, V8 Sport Sedan arena... Just curious. - Ray 'good value' - to me...
The product is similar and near equal. But the Hyundai is a better VALUE - what you get relative to what you pay for - as it is less costly and has a better warranty.
Agreed. In 2003 my folks decided to get a new car ... their first "new" car in 30 years (they'd bought used in the interim). They've always been Toyota fans, so they were all set to pick up a Camry LE - 4-cyl. Then my dad discovers the Hyundai Sonata - the model that kinda sorta looked like a Jag. They find out that they can get a Sonata V6 for about the same money as the Camry 4-cyl, so they pull the trigger. 7 years later, the car has less than 24K on the clock and they absolutely love it.
Regarding Pontiac and Saturn close out deals, I own 3 Saturns and had to go to the dealer for some service a couple of weeks ago. Perused the lot with a salesman. $7K off any new Saturn. Not much left to choose from, really - a couple of Skys and maybe 6-10 Auras.
Salesman says the dealer might knock off a couple grand from the sticker, then the $7K rebate kicks in. On top of that, my GM Card was "topped off" to $2K, plus I've got a trade in that may be worth around $4K. So, $11K in incentives from GM and whatever my trade is worth.
All in, I figure I could get a $27,000 Aura XR V6 for around $12,000 before tax and tags. Tempting, but, like you, I couldn't pull the trigger. Why?
1) Don't really "need" a new car 2) Not certain that my next car will be a sedan
I like the G6 convertible, but the non-existent trunk space when the roof is down is a bit of a deal breaker to me. Like the Vibe, too. Sky and Solstice are too small for me, and there are no VUEs to be found in Colorado, unless you want FWD, which I don't.
I've been a Saturn fan since I bought my first one in 2002, but not certain that my next car will be a GM
Have you actually looked in and sat in a a recent Camry. Hard plastics. Odd-feeling seats. Minimization in everything.
That's why many of us feel Toyota is slowly becoming "GM-like". And that's not a good thing.
Meanwhile GM is trying to improve.
Unfortunately Toyota is still way more reliable, and has the better reputation. GM has a much poorer reputation.
If it takes 3 years to design new, better vehicles and get them to market--- well it takes more like 10 years to improve a poor reputation. Look at Hyundai - making really excellent cars; a clear effort to excel. And still they are catching up. GM needs a decade of improvement to erase their old reputation. If they can survive that long.
Unfortunately Toyota is still way more reliable, and has the better reputation.
And just exactly how many cars has Toyota recalled this year?
They keep this up and that reputation will disappear faster than water on a hot griddle.
There is already one poster in a different forum who recently bought a 2010 Avalon - when his wife heard the news story about the gas pedal recall, she refuses to drive it and he's looking for a way out.
Check the video at bottom of first page of this NBC report last night. The credibility of the Mr. Haggerty is about 110%. He says the throttle did NOT stick. The car just kept racing. The car got to the garage by God's grace and they replaced the throttle body and the accelerator parts of the fly by wire system. Apparently they billed him.
They keep this up and that reputation will disappear faster than water on a hot griddle.
>And just exactly how many cars has Toyota recalled this year? They keep this up and that reputation will disappear faster than water on a hot griddle.
The problem is that Toyo has recalled 3.5 + 2.3 million, that's 5.8 million. However many people are still very forgiving of the reputation. But the reputation isn't quite what's in play. It's the lack of being forthcoming with information. In reading the stories of many runaways from the first it's clear they weren't all goofballs coverying up their use of mats that jammed the throttle; many were credible.
Toyo is making the same mistake again, blaming the consumers like the sludge problems and the transmission shifting lag problems (or software problem).
GM didn't handle problems well for the last 10 years. Toyota is right there.
Many detractors don't even look to see how much GM has improved. They just keep criticizing. While not all GM models have been revamped and may be lower than what quality we'd like to see, some models are much better than some of the haters want to allow others to perceive.
If I owned a Toyota, I would have sold it by now. I was close to winning one last fall in a contest and one of the tickets I sold to friends won--so I was close to having a Corolla 2009 in my fleet.
Many detractors don't even look to see how much GM has improved. They just keep criticizing. While not all GM models have been revamped and may be lower than what quality we'd like to see, some models are much better than some of the haters want to allow others to perceive.
Exactly!
I look at GM's offerings as either "pre" or "post" BK. Stuff like the Cobalt and Impala need to be updated - and they will be (Cobalt to be replaced by the Cruze, and the Impala by the hope to be available refresh of the G8 - Caprice?)
The new stuff - LaCrosse, SRX, Equinox, Regal, etc. - are much better in terms of how they stack up against the competition. I think people are starting to notice.
I'm not a GM hater. I'm not a Toyota hater, either. I think the playing field is leveling out for everybody.
Someone once pointed out that there isn't a "Divine Right of Corporations" just like there isn't a "Divine Right of Kings". Companies who can't adapt, die. Companies who can, live on to fight another day.
(well, unless you're deemed "too big to fail" and the government helps out just a tiny little bit)
Everybody had IBM written off in the early 90's. They were able to reposition themselves and have again become a leader in the technology industry. Hyundai had a miserable first few years selling cars in the US; they, too, were able to overcome those early perceptions and are now one of the most successful manufacturers in the country.
Fiat? Renault? Daihatsu? Daewoo? They used to be in the US. No more - though Fiat will be back, through Chrysler.
I would've sold the car a put the money towards other things or saved it. Eh, maybe I would've driven it once to one of the Carlise shows just to get a laugh out of grbeck and andre1969.
Why did you not think the G8 was a 'good value'? I believe that my 2009 G8 GT is an exceptional value -
Well I said I didn't think it was a good value for me to buy it; that is based on my circumstances. I already have a sports sedan, and if anything I could use a vehicle with other attributes - I could see either a high-mpg vehicle or a tow-vehicle as good additions to my garage. It wasn't a good fit for me, when I looked at it. The G8 certainly was decent but too much additional $ for not much extra in my case.
I thought the Sky/Solstice being convertible and better on mpg were higher on my list. But $7,000 on a $35K vehicle just didn't look like that a big of a discount.
C&D rated your steering as "Good". Here are the comments.
Skid pad: Appropriate effort/build-up from steering wheel. Easy to find the mild understeer at the limit. Good balance so I could easily alter the course with the throttle. ESP is rather conservatively tuned here, resulting in both brake application and throttle closure. Slalom: This CXS doesn't feel as crisp as the CXL did, but it ultimately makes the same handling numbers. The differences are: turn-in isn't as quick, it takes more time to take a set, and I had more difficulty placing the car very near the cones without hitting them. The stability system is well tuned to approach limits with minimal intrusion. All handling tests in Sport mode.
In any event, your handling performance is better than the Lexus.
Yeah but after about 15K miles everyone would suspect the G6 convertible was a FL rental that I had repurchased. On the used car market thus it would be priced under $20K. What do you think the trade-in would be?
Basically any convertible except for that Chrysler Sebring has more market appeal then the G6. If the G6 were any good, it would have sold tons of units and pontiac wouldn't be dead. The G6 needed to be Pontiac's bread-and-butter car, but even Oprah's marketing didn't help.
I think if I wanted a reasonably priced convertible it would be a Mini, or wait for the '11 Mustang, or spend slightly more for Nissan 370Z.
Comments
I hope this was a 'mid-life' crisis -
as that means I will live until 114-ish....
I had not been married for almost 15 years prior...
And I drove mine daily - only vehicle.
- Ray
But don't fit "The Profile" in other areas as well....
[ Like: Not rich ]
So.....let me get this straight. Buy a Vette, drag race it, fish tail into a pole and YOU think GM should take it back??
A single scratch WASN'T THERE when you took delivery, nor should it be there if you return it.
You drive a GM off the lot, and you've lost thousands already! "
GM absorbs it. You return it, you get ALL your money back, including sales tax.
Regards,
OW
And unless you park your car in the bedroom -you don't get a single scratch/dent?? How about parking publicly,at the supermarket at the work place??? Even cars parked at dealerships get dents and scratches !! :P You take your car for service and they jack it up and open and close the doors and they dont get a single scratch--right??
And no one is talking of racing here- far far from it... Just regular driving on highways and roads -- you can get rock chips,taking your car for service,,parking it anywhere !!!... :shades:
So in order to be eligible for the offer-- you should drive it in a temperature controlled area ,air must be free of any particles,roads made of shatterproof glass and park in a carpeted enclosed garage ??? I qualify for this !!
Regards,
OW
I think you are overstating it. If they were that picayune over every little thing, you would have heard people screaming bloody blue murder over it.
Look at Hyundai Assurance. It only covers you for $7500 (including depreciation) Any damage over that YOU own. You also don't get any money you put down on it or any payments you've made (you must make 2 and be up to date) or your sales tax back, either.
Not to mention GM wants you to buy a GM product, but smacks you in the face with a hit in depreciation that nearly wipes you out. Nothing to back up your money. Only years later when the thing is falling apart.
Ha, well luckily I lease. My fellow friend drives the same model. She has a massive loan!! Oops!
I take it you don't have kids;) Nothing scarier than an excited 6 year old opening their door in a parking lot.
Honestly, I don't own anything car wise I care enough about to get bent out of shape over dents and dings. My wife has a company car, so I could care less about it and my 07 Expedition is simply a tool to haul the family, dog, and the boat to the lake. It has a few minor dings and dents, you name it, it's been spilled in it, heck, I think the dog even crapped in it once. That's why at this point, I buy them used, because it will get abused in our household.
I know some people don't allow drinks in their cars, but we take to many hour + drives for that to be feasible and I'm sure not going to stop and wait for everyone to have a drink or eat while we are on our way somewhere. Besides, if it gets dropped, the dog will eat it! LOL
Here's someone who returned their Buick last month because he didn't like the visibility. But he got a MKS instead.
paulct, "2010 Buick LaCrosse" #250, 24 Dec 2009 11:33 am
I do not have the kind of love for this car...lol If you can actually love a car. Its material. But, when you work hard for your money. I want something to show it. lol
Oh well. Its just a car, but when your money going to it, and it isn't matching what it is supposed to offer, what their claiming.....then that is an issue!
Their name means exacty =Fluff.
I do not have the kind of love for this car...lol If you can actually love a car. Its material. But, when you work hard for your money. I want something to show it. lol
I understand 100%! If I had a 5 series or even a luxury SUV like a MB GL320CDI, my level of patience and tolerance would change drastically.
At those prices, they have significantly undercut their potential competitors like the S60 and the Acura TL, I would think. Even the TSX is close to $30 grand now, with the 200 hp four. I would be interested in a back to back between those two actually: Regal CXL vs TSX (vs S60, also vs Passat perhaps).
Will Buick be able to attract Volvo/VW/Acura customers? Most of that crowd are pretty loyal to their chosen brand I think, although Acura sales are way off so Buick could certainly find some converts there.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The 2.4 is the same engine that's found in the Malibu, right? The one with 182HP? And the turbo will have around 240HP?
Wonder what options will be available and at what cost?
If these numbers are MSRP, the Regal might have a chance. I believe the transaction prices for the TSX are in the high 20's (check the "Prices Paid" board for more info).
Will Buick be able to attract Volvo/VW/Acura customers?
That, my friend, is the $64,000 question. If GM can build the Regal with enough sportiness baked into its DNA, then back it with a killer warranty - why GM hasn't emulated Hyundai in this aspect I'll never understand - they might have a winner on their hands.
More fun than a Malibu, but not quite as expensive as whatever Cadillac might offer underneath the CTS range. Truly what the multi brand strategy is meant to do.
What would be awesome is for GM to offer and coupe and/or a wagon variant of the Regal, so as to have something other than a sedan.
-----------------------------------------------
The turbo will be 220HP and require 91 octane premium fuel to make that. At 3700 lbs it will not be a performer.
This IS the near-lux, sportyish market of 2010. Regal has certainly hit the sweet spot of performance and price, maybe even undercut the competition in price, IF IF IF IF the performance is really there.
That's why I want to see a four-way comparo of these guys... :-)
This class will always be limited by its FWD. I can get more serious RWD models for about $32-35K, so that marks the effective price cap for these near-luxes.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Supposedly, the AWD version will allow 100% torque application to the rear wheels.
Why'd they detune it? It made 260HP in the HHR and Cobalt SS.
I know that 3700 pounds is heavy, but it seems like everything in this mid-size class is around that weight. My '03 L300 V6 is just under 3200 pounds, and the Aura came in at between 36-3700.
I don't think GM is looking for an all out performance car, but rather something that is fun and sporty; they are trying, as pointed out above, to lure the buyer who would be tempted by a TSX, IS250 (yes, RWD), S60, or former Saab 9-3 buyer.
Isn't Infiniti coming out with a G25, which has a 2.5L V6 engine?
But GM will fail.
For $30K, you can get a TSX, pretty much loaded(no nav, but factory nav systems are 10x the cost of a good consumer unit and work half as well).
It comes with everything else, though. There are no options, because it's all included.
GM, otoh, hasn't figured out a way to build a car that doesn't have 20% in options that you have to grind through and chose. Want leather? $$$(have to buy a luxury package) Want Fog lights? $$$(have to buy a sport package) Want better audio? $$$(have to buy a premium package)
So it's really a $35K loaded Buick versus a 30K loaded TSX. I know which one is also better built and has a better interior, because the TSX comes out ahead in a side-by-side test of the last generation CTS versus it, and there's no way in hell that GM will make the Regal any better - it has to be lower quality than the new CTS and new Lucerne.
The previous generation CTS is therefore a likely good yardstick for interior quality and features.
Always trying to catch up and equal the imports but never really beating them. GM fails again.
Packing a turbocharged 2.0-liter four-cylinder engine, the same unit destined for the Regal CXL but with output dialled up to 255-horsepower and 295-pound-feet of torque, the new Regal GS should easily eclipse the 60 mph mark in less than 6 seconds.
The weight still will detract from the performance substantially, however.
Regards,
OW
Someone at Edmunds must be 57 too.
Used Car Corner: We Bought a Used Corvette Z06 (Edmunds Daily)
Dangerous year. And I'm 57.
Again, how many more cars is GM going to offer? I thought they were supposed to be downsizing? Do we really need yet another car or SUV, CUV?
And to think I am still supporting their habit. I thought GM already had their intervention? Oops! They had a relapse.
a soccer mom can still smoke that "sporty Buick" in her Camry V6 automatic, loaded with kids and their sporting gears while putting on her make-up.
with more than a few car body length to spare, and probably a few K more in her bank account.
not to mention better reliability and higher resale value.
the problem with GM has always been that there is no compelling reason for people to buy a GM vehicle other the alternatives.
Have you actually looked in and sat in a a recent Camry. Hard plastics. Odd-feeling seats. Minimization in everything.
Hopefull GM won't skimp on the accoutrements and the Regal will be as plushly finished as the LaCrosse 2010.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think the new Regal looks nice and has some potential, but I kind of equate it more with Camry XLE or Accord EX. It doesn't really strike me as a near luxury model that much, but the Lincoln MKZ doesn't either. They are nice vehicles, but I guess time will tell.
Regards,
OW
Or you can buy a Subaru Legacy w/the 3.6L engine (auto) or the turbo 2.5L (manual) and AWD for $25K or $26K.
If you want something fairly sporty there's also the Nissan Maxima. So there is a lot of competition in this segment that the Buick Regal would be going into.
They'll have a sales-success for the first 2 months, then it'll be 20K units per year.
What baseball player said "hit 'em where they ain't"? Well GM should start taking that advice, and find some niches. I suggest they start looking into making 3-wheel vehicles that sell for under $10K, as one idea. Maybe small diesel pickups would be another market not being served. I'm talking PU's ranging from 150" - 180".
Nah, they'll add some incentives and make it a decent challenger to comparable Camry and Accord, presuming it has quality levels similar to the big Buicks rather than Chevy.
Maxima? The overly bloated, CVT-only, joke of a former sport sedan?
If the new Regal can't give the driver a better experience than that pair (and Accord EX), then GM really ought to throw in the towel right now.
Now I haven't driven the MKS, or T, or X, whatever melange of capital letters specifies the new Lincoln sedan, so I forgot to include that one earlier, but I think GM is well-positioned vs the Lincoln too.
It will all come down to whether or not GM has truly made this new Regal a worthy near-lux sport sedan, or just another squish-mobile like the Camry. If it's just a Camry by another name, my prediction is Buick will be gone from our shores within a few years. Why keep it in that case? Chevy has it covered.
So I will withhold judgment until I see that 4-way comparo (actually with an Accord and a Legacy thrown in, it's up to what, a 6-way comparo?)...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Regal won't be another Camry as it was designed with Europe in mind. But with 182hp, not only is it less powerful than the TSX, but also than the Accord EX (192hp). Further, the new Sonata will have a standard 200hp. I knew GM would screw up somewhere. Anyway, the Regal has got to be best in class in order to take off.
So, would you say that the above statement applies to Hyundai? That they have a "better" product than Toyota or Honda?
Lots of folks have switched allegiances from Toy / Hon to Hyundai, but I'm not sure I'm convinced that the product is superior. The change in warranty has certainly helped increase customer confidence.
Or is your prediction merely that GM will fail some time before time & the universe "end"?
The product is similar and near equal. But the Hyundai is a better VALUE - what you get relative to what you pay for - as it is less costly and has a better warranty.
Several weeks ago during the last days of Saturn and Pontiac when there were $6,500 and $7,000 rebates on the remaining cars, I asked everyone here who went and bought one. They should be a great value, right. I didn't see a single post of anyone who thought it was worthwhile to get a shiny new car. I looked at the G5 and got a price, looked at some Solstices and Skys, a Vue, and a G8, and I still couldn't pull the trigger - I didn't think they were a good value. And this had nothing to do with fear of warranty which I know GM will support, or even trade-in-value as I would probably kkeep it for a good while.
Oh and I also perused a convertible - I looked at the sticker on a G6 convertible which was like $34K! and said holy ______. No wonder they're going out of business!
Why did you not think the G8 was a 'good value'?
I believe that my 2009 G8 GT is an exceptional value -
given what else is available in the
RWD, V8 Sport Sedan arena...
Just curious.
- Ray
'good value' - to me...
Agreed. In 2003 my folks decided to get a new car ... their first "new" car in 30 years (they'd bought used in the interim). They've always been Toyota fans, so they were all set to pick up a Camry LE - 4-cyl. Then my dad discovers the Hyundai Sonata - the model that kinda sorta looked like a Jag. They find out that they can get a Sonata V6 for about the same money as the Camry 4-cyl, so they pull the trigger. 7 years later, the car has less than 24K on the clock and they absolutely love it.
Regarding Pontiac and Saturn close out deals, I own 3 Saturns and had to go to the dealer for some service a couple of weeks ago. Perused the lot with a salesman. $7K off any new Saturn. Not much left to choose from, really - a couple of Skys and maybe 6-10 Auras.
Salesman says the dealer might knock off a couple grand from the sticker, then the $7K rebate kicks in. On top of that, my GM Card was "topped off" to $2K, plus I've got a trade in that may be worth around $4K. So, $11K in incentives from GM and whatever my trade is worth.
All in, I figure I could get a $27,000 Aura XR V6 for around $12,000 before tax and tags. Tempting, but, like you, I couldn't pull the trigger. Why?
1) Don't really "need" a new car
2) Not certain that my next car will be a sedan
I like the G6 convertible, but the non-existent trunk space when the roof is down is a bit of a deal breaker to me. Like the Vibe, too. Sky and Solstice are too small for me, and there are no VUEs to be found in Colorado, unless you want FWD, which I don't.
I've been a Saturn fan since I bought my first one in 2002, but not certain that my next car will be a GM
That's why many of us feel Toyota is slowly becoming "GM-like". And that's not a good thing.
Meanwhile GM is trying to improve.
Unfortunately Toyota is still way more reliable, and has the better reputation. GM has a much poorer reputation.
If it takes 3 years to design new, better vehicles and get them to market--- well it takes more like 10 years to improve a poor reputation. Look at Hyundai - making really excellent cars; a clear effort to excel. And still they are catching up. GM needs a decade of improvement to erase their old reputation. If they can survive that long.
And just exactly how many cars has Toyota recalled this year?
They keep this up and that reputation will disappear faster than water on a hot griddle.
There is already one poster in a different forum who recently bought a 2010 Avalon - when his wife heard the news story about the gas pedal recall, she refuses to drive it and he's looking for a way out.
Just sayin'.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/runaway-toyotas-problem-persists-recall/story?id=9- 618735&page=1
They keep this up and that reputation will disappear faster than water on a hot griddle.
>And just exactly how many cars has Toyota recalled this year? They keep this up and that reputation will disappear faster than water on a hot griddle.
The problem is that Toyo has recalled 3.5 + 2.3 million, that's 5.8 million. However many people are still very forgiving of the reputation. But the reputation isn't quite what's in play. It's the lack of being forthcoming with information. In reading the stories of many runaways from the first it's clear they weren't all goofballs coverying up their use of mats that jammed the throttle; many were credible.
Toyo is making the same mistake again, blaming the consumers like the sludge problems and the transmission shifting lag problems (or software problem).
GM didn't handle problems well for the last 10 years. Toyota is right there.
Many detractors don't even look to see how much GM has improved. They just keep criticizing. While not all GM models have been revamped and may be lower than what quality we'd like to see, some models are much better than some of the haters want to allow others to perceive.
If I owned a Toyota, I would have sold it by now. I was close to winning one last fall in a contest and one of the tickets I sold to friends won--so I was close to having a Corolla 2009 in my fleet.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Exactly!
I look at GM's offerings as either "pre" or "post" BK. Stuff like the Cobalt and Impala need to be updated - and they will be (Cobalt to be replaced by the Cruze, and the Impala by the hope to be available refresh of the G8 - Caprice?)
The new stuff - LaCrosse, SRX, Equinox, Regal, etc. - are much better in terms of how they stack up against the competition. I think people are starting to notice.
I'm not a GM hater. I'm not a Toyota hater, either. I think the playing field is leveling out for everybody.
Someone once pointed out that there isn't a "Divine Right of Corporations" just like there isn't a "Divine Right of Kings". Companies who can't adapt, die. Companies who can, live on to fight another day.
(well, unless you're deemed "too big to fail" and the government helps out just a tiny little bit)
Everybody had IBM written off in the early 90's. They were able to reposition themselves and have again become a leader in the technology industry. Hyundai had a miserable first few years selling cars in the US; they, too, were able to overcome those early perceptions and are now one of the most successful manufacturers in the country.
Fiat? Renault? Daihatsu? Daewoo? They used to be in the US. No more - though Fiat will be back, through Chrysler.
That's true -- though I'm not certain that Nissan would have made it without Renault's (in the form of Carlos Ghosn) help and money.
The weight is also what gives it the structural rigidity. My Lacrosse is rock solid, and takes corners very tightly.
An '08 Solara Conv. would top $34K loaded, and that's a ragtop, not a retractible hardtop.
I believe that my 2009 G8 GT is an exceptional value -
Well I said I didn't think it was a good value for me to buy it; that is based on my circumstances. I already have a sports sedan, and if anything I could use a vehicle with other attributes - I could see either a high-mpg vehicle or a tow-vehicle as good additions to my garage. It wasn't a good fit for me, when I looked at it. The G8 certainly was decent but too much additional $ for not much extra in my case.
I thought the Sky/Solstice being convertible and better on mpg were higher on my list. But $7,000 on a $35K vehicle just didn't look like that a big of a discount.
Skid pad: Appropriate effort/build-up from steering wheel. Easy to find the mild understeer at the limit. Good balance so I could easily alter the course with the throttle. ESP is rather conservatively tuned here, resulting in both brake application and throttle closure. Slalom: This CXS doesn't feel as crisp as the CXL did, but it ultimately makes the same handling numbers. The differences are: turn-in isn't as quick, it takes more time to take a set, and I had more difficulty placing the car very near the cones without hitting them. The stability system is well tuned to approach limits with minimal intrusion. All handling tests in Sport mode.
In any event, your handling performance is better than the Lexus.
Regards,
OW
Basically any convertible except for that Chrysler Sebring has more market appeal then the G6. If the G6 were any good, it would have sold tons of units and pontiac wouldn't be dead. The G6 needed to be Pontiac's bread-and-butter car, but even Oprah's marketing didn't help.
I think if I wanted a reasonably priced convertible it would be a Mini, or wait for the '11 Mustang, or spend slightly more for Nissan 370Z.