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"What an irony, huh?" lawyer John Pieri said. He represents a retired autoworker in Buffalo, N.Y., who is being sued for $45,501 and accused of giving discounts to 13 people from 2004 until April 2007.
Several retirees and lawyers said the lawsuits are an attempt to raise cash by a financially troubled company that lost $15.5 billion during the second quarter and provide insight into an unconventional way GM is trying to recoup revenue amid the slowest sales climate in more than a decade.
First off it was against the rules to use your employee discount for non relatives and giving 13 out is a big time offense. The author of the article is trying to make a big deal out of the fact that the lawsuit is happening at the same time as a nationwide short term program that does the same thing but the offense was done not during the program. The guy broke the rules, not a little, but a lot.
2nd, GM will not be making any money trying to stop this abuse. They will lose money on this suit. It is very doubtful they will recoup the cost of this suit. I will be very surprized that a judge will ever allow GM to get the court cost and the other penaltys. Just not gonna happen unless the offender has a bunch of money.
GM is suing to make a point that they have this rule and they want to stop the abuse. This guy is not the first but he sure has abused his beni.
I want to know how the discount affects sales. This is a costly incentive and part of the bleeding of cash. What good did it do?
Regards,
OW
PROBLEM STARTED AT 800 MILES
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.efcecf4/2981
Industry Forecast For August Is Down Over 14%
Gasoline prices have fallen from June's record high of $4.11 an unleaded regular gallon, but U.S. consumers are still staying away from dealerships, sales forecasters say.
When August light-vehicle sales are reported Tuesday, Sept. 2, the year-over-year sales decline will be 14.4 percent, predicts Edmunds.com, an industry research firm. That compares with a 13.2 percent decline from unit sales in July 2007 and a 10.5 percent decline for the first seven months of 2008.
Continuing this year's trend, August's largest declines will be concentrated among Detroit 3 brands, said Jesse Toprak, Edmunds.com executive director of industry analysis. He forecast a 34 percent drop at Chrysler and 27.5 percent at General Motors this month.
Obama's lengthy acceptance speech in Denver on Thursday night was noteworthy in terms of the attention it paid to American autoworkers and the Detroit Big 3.
"For the sake of our economy, our security and the future of our planet, I will set a clear goal as president," Obama said. "In 10 years, we will finally end our dependence on oil from the Middle East."
Obama said he will "help our auto companies retool, so that the fuel-efficient cars of the future are built right here in America. I'll make it easier for the American people to afford these new cars."
But he did not give specifics on how that goal will be achieved.
Detroit has come knocking on Washington's door for help in getting out of the hole. GM's Lutz ramped up that effort in Chicago, saying that Americans should not think of loan guarantees to automakers as a bailout because the government would only act as a co-signer on the loans.
"I do think the American automobile business is deserving of government loan guarantees because the financial institutions in the U.S. are so stressed out right now," he said.
Detroit's automakers are pressuring Congress to act by the end of September so that the money can be available next year.
What this means to you: There's lots of talk about helping out Detroit, but no action thus far. — Anita Lienert, Correspondent
(source )inside line
Like I said, all manufacturers have recalls. It's the problems that they know are defective and refuse to recall that bother me.
Now I don't have any first-hand experience in it, but I've heard that dealers of Toyota, Honda, etc, have actually been pretty helpful when it comes to replacing sludged-up Toyota engines, or those 5-speed Honda automatics that tended to fail early, and stuff like that. In contrast, the domestic dealers like to fight you, tooth and nail, when your GM intake manifold blows or your Mopar tranny dies prematurely, or your Ford does whatever bad thing they do nowadays.
I think one problem with stuff like the GM intake manifold, or the head gasket in the Ford 3.8 V-6 that tended to blow, is that those failures would often come around 90,000 miles. Long enough to usually be well out of warranty, but still "young" enough, that it'll make you think twice about buying another vehicle from that company. And I guess when something fails at that age, I guess it's hard to prove defect versus negligence/abuse.
Actually now that I think about it, I have a buddy who bought a 1989 or so Dodge Dynasty way back when it was new. Its transmission failed twice. First time was within 36K miles, still under warranty, and Chrysler picked up the tab, with no fighting. I think the second time was around 80-90,000 miles. It was well out of warranty, but to their credit, Chrysler picked up half the tab. I guess that's not TOO bad. Would an import have been willing to pick up the whole cost?
The denial:
Then we had our suspicions up that this isn't an unusual case, that Lexus knows about the problem, and has formed a response -- just deny, deny, deny," said Meckstroth, a 47-year-old New Orleans stockbroker. "We decided to sue."
The link:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070207/AUTO01/702070349/1148-
This is exactly the type of thing that turns off buyers. It's not so much the problem but how the company responds. In the case of the gasket, I've seen them fail under 40k miles.
GM is not the only company that is guilty of this. All companies have recalls. It doesn't matter the size,jsut as long as the problem gets fixed.
Also, it's "Acadia," not "Arcadia."
Actually andre regarding recalls, very few are "forced" by the government. Most are implemented by the manufacturers themselves, sometimes with some prodding by the government through defect investigations. But you are correct in that recalls involve safety issues, and failing transmissions generally don't fall into this category.
Didn't lots of the Honda problem transmissions lockup at speed!!! That has to be exciting.
>been pretty helpful when it comes to replacing sludged-up Toyota engines,
Toyota denied the sludge for years, blaming the owners about neglect, etc. I believe they even called it gelling instead of sludge. Meanwhile it seemed they had changed the design of PCV systems to counter the effect of their engine design and made other changes to passage sized to minimize the impact that sludge actually had. Then eventually they allowed people to show one oil change per year--recall they had raised the oil change interval to a LONG period mileswise and timewise for that motor.
Was the eventual, limited settlement due to a class action suit?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Up until the early 1990's, GM still used separate keys for the door and ignition in their vehicles. It took them until the late 1990's to switch to a single-key design in all of their vehicles. I'm not sure of the exact dates, but this was long after everyone else had a single key that would both unlock the door and start the car.
In the 1990s, Volvo, BMW, Audi, VW, and others began using laser-cut keys. They're more difficult to reproduce and don't gouge holes inside pockets, briefcases, and wallets. Not found in GM's mass-produced models.
Mercedes introduced (and later abandoned) the switchblade key, integrating the keyless entry remote with the ignition key. Audi and VW popularized it, and Acura, Volvo, Bentley, and Land Rover have used iterations of it. Also not found at GM.
Mercedes introduced Keyless Go in 1998. Ten years later, most manufacturers offer some version of it, and Nissan offers it on every model. You can get it on the new CTS and STS, but Cadillac's implementation doesn't use the "start/stop" button that Lexus, Toyota, BMW, Nissan, and Infiniti have standardized on. Instead, a fake plastic key protrudes from the steering column, and you turn it to start the car. Buick, Pontiac, Chevrolet, and GMC still don't offer this feature, even on their premium cars.
Several years ago, there was a Presidential candidate who was widely criticized for suggesting that, in order to save money, the U.S. military should skip every other generation of technology. GM has managed to skip two generations of technology, and has come in very late to the party (and with most vehicles, hasn't shown up at all) with the third generation. We're not talking about glovebox or cupholder technology here--the way in which the car is started is something a customer will encounter every time they drive the vehicle.
I'd always wondered when one key became the norm. My 2000 Intrepid has one key for everything. My '89 Gran Fury still kept with the old Chrysler tradition of one key for the doors and ignition, and another key for the glovebox and trunk, which makes more sense to me than the "square head ignition only, round key, trunk and doors".
I don't have much experience with anything between 1989 and 2000 though. I think my uncle's '97 Silverado has one key for everything, but can't remember for sure.
Interestingly, unce upon a time, long, long ago, GM went with the Chrysler convention of one key for doors and ignition, and another key for trunk and glovebox. Unfortunately, I didn't realize that, the first time I drove my '69 Bonneville to work and locked the doors. When I came out after work, I stuck the round key in the door, as I had done with countless 70's and 80's GM products, only to find it didn't work. I started to panic, but then stuck the square head in the door on the off chance it would work, and thankfully it did!
I wonder when GM made the switch to square head ignition only, round head trunk and doors? I can narrow it down to between 1969 (my Bonneville) and 1976 (my LeMans) but that's it.
One car has a single key system. The other car has a key for ignition and key for doors, trunk, and glovebox.
Or maybe on the other hand I need a car that has a key that doubles as a gun, flashlight, cellphone and jack. :P I'm sure someone has that coming out.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Now, that's efficiency!
Regards,
OW
The post was meant to illustrate, with a specific example, how GM stood still while everyone else was either innovating or copying good ideas from others who had innovated.
Even my 1989 MB had a laser cut key, IIRC
I must admit with the amount of vehicles GM produces saving 16 bolts per unit more than justified having those kits around.
BTW, under the new employee pricing being offered by GM, I priced a 2008 Denali at $29.8K at a local dealer. Since my experience with the Denali isn't identical to yours I'm contemplating this decision even though my current just turned 40K. I think the 2008 done in black really looks like a hearse whether thats good or bad I'm not sure.
That will torpedo the values of used Denalis to even lower levels...
The Denali listed MSRP $50K - GM employee discount -$5K cash back = $39K.
It appears the net is MSRP - $12K with offer expiring September 2,
Consider gas will return to $135/bbl. Good luck what ever decision you make.
The wife's Denali just turned 62K and only one problems since the A/C compressor failed last year. Battery drain condition blamed on a stuck seat switch...yeah, right!
Regards,
OW
Good luck!
Regards,
OW
Geeze, the critics are really reaching to criticize GM to complain about the keys. Personally, I'd rather have two separate keys to make it harder for thieves to make off with my ride.
Most Stolen Vehicles
1995 Honda Civic
1991 Honda Accord
1989 Toyota Camry
1997 Ford F150 Series
1994 Chevrolet C/K 1500 Pickup
1994 Acura Integra
2004 Dodge Ram Pickup
1994 Nissan Sentra
1988 Toyota Pickup
2007 Toyota Corolla
Regards,
OW
First they complain there are money-saving techniques that GM's not using. Then they complain when a money-saving technique is implemented. :P
If this technique were on a HoToy or HyKiaNissMaz it is called state-of-the-art! :shades: But to hate GM, it fits to make it as bad as brake pedal burp. :confuse:
When the manufacturing process and equipment is more precise, the more solid and permanent fixation is a positive over the time-consuming bolt-on method.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
BS! if they are gonna hot wire your car they'll do it,and if they get ahold of your keys that are usually together anyways ,it takes nothing to flip to the next key.
to be fair to GM though,my friend 89 accord does have 2 keys ,one for ignition and the other for trunk and glove box, so this is not just GM been late to the party.
IIRC advertising in the era the ignition cylinder could then have more tumblers for greater security.
The current model I have uses a separate valet key that only opens the doors and operates the ignition, keeping the glovebox and trunk relatively safe from prying, sticky finger parkers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think they should save money on cheaper parts. It will end the misery sooner!
Sales will slip again in August.
Regards,
OW
Please give me the steps for "hot-wiring" my GM cars--1998 and 2003--so that they can be driven away absent the keys.
username@carspace.com from your carspace account--outside emails don't go in.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What's coming and what's good and new about GM?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What you'll need
* Proof of ownership of the vehicle
* Slotted screwdriver
* Wire stripper
* Insulated gloves
Try the screwdriver
It's not pretty, but a screwdriver can save you some trouble.
It's not pretty, but a screwdriver can save you some trouble.
If you're considering hot-wiring your car, chances are you're already in dire straits. Before making things worse by removing the ignition cover and making a general mess of your vehicle, it might be worth trying the old "screwdriver in the ignition" trick. All this calls for is inserting a slotted screwdriver in the ignition and turning it over like a regular key. If the car starts, you've saved yourself the hassle and electrical hazards of hot-wiring.
No such luck? Don't fret. You'll still need the screwdriver for the following steps. Just be sure not to get it stuck in the ignition cylinder.
Remove the ignition cover
Be careful not to do permanent damage when removing the cover.
Be careful not to do permanent damage when removing the cover.
Before continuing, be sure to exercise extreme caution. The following steps can result in painful electrical shocks, so follow the instructions carefully.
The first step is to gain access to the wiring. Most cars have large plastic panels that snap together and cover the top and bottom of the steering column. You'll want to carefully remove these panels so that the cylinder (and the wires running into it) are exposed. At some point you'll want to put these pieces back together, so be sure to use a feather touch while separating them.
Identify the battery and starter wires
Consult your vehicle's manual to get the correct wire color code.
You'll typically see three pairs of wires running into the back of the cylinder. Don't freak out -- each pair just represents a different key position on the ignition. In short, one pair should trigger the battery-only position, another pair the lights and radio position, etc. Of course, this also means one pair is responsible for the final key position -- starting the car.
Here's where it gets tricky. Everything you need is laid out in front of you, but there's no universal color system for the wires. Consulting your car's manual is probably the best way to find out your vehicle's specific color code. However, in a pinch the red pair is usually the set that provides power to the car, and the brown (which can be a single wire or a pair depending on the car) handles the starter.
Strip and connect the power wires
Once you've located the wires that provide power to the car, disconnect them from the cylinder. Use the wire stripper to remove the plastic from the ends and then twist them together. The fruits of your labor should be obvious -- power to the dashboard, lights, and pretty much everything else in the car.
Connect the starter wires to the power wires
Now things get dangerous. Although connecting the power wires is relatively safe, the wires responsible for starting the car carry live current. Under no circumstances should you touch the bare starter wires! With that in mind, strip the insulation off the ends of the wires and carefully touch them together. You should see a spark and hear the engine fire up. Once it's started idling, separate and cover the ends of the starter wires. They still pose an electrical hazard even after the vehicle has started, and you don't want them dangling around your knees.
TIP: This process may be slightly different for older cars. If you discover that the vehicle has a single starter wire (as opposed to a pair), you'll want to disconnect and handle the wire in the same fashion mentioned above. To start the car, the starter wire must come in contact with the connected power wires. Once the engine has started, remove the starter wire from the circuit and cover its exposed tip.
Things to consider
* Hot-wiring is illegal if you don't own the car, so have your ID and registration (or some other proof of ownership) handy. If you are helping out a friend, that person must be able to prove ownership and must remain with you during the entire process.
* Many cars have a mechanism that locks the steering wheel unless a key is in the ignition. So, even if you get the car started without a key, you may not be able to turn the steering wheel.
* If you're not sure you know what you're doing, don't even start. You can do serious, hard-to-troubleshoot (in other words, expensive) damage to wiring and other components if you accidentally ground (or power) the wrong circuit.
* Newer cars have a computer chip in the ignition system that requires a matching key. Most of them have an RFID chip that works when in proximity to the steering column. Without a key, these cars cannot be hot-wired. If your key does not turn the mechanical locks, simply taping it to the steering column may enable you to hot-wire the car.
* Slightly older cars have resistors at very precise resistances (such as 11.7ohms) built in to the keys. These need to be matched with a value stored in the car's memory to start the car. After a few (typically 3) mismatched resistances, the ECU will lock out the ignition.
Note: As a rule of thumb you should not touch bare electrical wires, but in this case it won't do you any harm. The battery can provide hundreds of amps (known as cranking amps) to start the engine, but it supplies them at only 12V. A voltage that low can't push sufficient current through you to hurt (this is why you can hold 12V camera batteries in your bare hands without any problem) - This due to the "breakdown voltage" of skin, as is between 30v and 48v DC. But if your hands are wet, touching the wires is a very bad idea, as is applying the power beneath the skin (there is a story somewhere on the Web of someone sticking multimeter pins into his thumbs and electrocuting himself).
The real problem arises if you short the battery across a piece of metal. A battery can supply as much current as a welder, hence the story on the Web of a guy who was working on his car and dropped a spanner, shorting the battery to the car and welding his wedding ring to the chassis. Combined with the hydrogen gas generated, and you can have an explosive situation.
Regards,
OW
How the heck would i know? i just figure GM is so far back with technolgy that you just knock the kick pannel, two wires drops out and you just twine them together and your off :P
Pretty much sums it up.
Based on your writeup, you're not going to drive away in either of my quality GM cars with those methods.
Actually a thief is not going to spend their time doing all that. Instead they'll back up a wrecker (recycling vehicle for the PC folks) and drag it away!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
This was back in the 70's and 80's though. I imagine that these days, every manufacturer installs the power window motors by whatever is the cheapest means possible.
As for different key combinations and stealing a car, wouldn't a thief break into a car the same way, regardless of whether the same key opened the doors and started the car? I mean, just jimmy the lock and then break the steering column trim once you're in the car?
Now I guess if someone jacks you as you're walking to your car, needing one key to open the door and another key to start it up might inconvenience the robber for about 5 seconds.
I know new cars aren't that easy to steal, but 70's and 80's ones sure were, and the older ones were even easier. Heck, back in the day all you had to do was pop the hood and run a wire from the battery to the ignition coil, and then touch some relay with a screwdriver. I forget the details now as it's been about 16 years since I've done it. And no, I've never stolen a car before, but it was a cute little parlor trick to show your friends. :shades:
And with those old ignition keys that were in the dash, it wasn't so hard to just reach up under the dash, yank a couple wires, and touch the correct ones together.
Regards,
OW
In the ignition keys, not the door keys, right?
I think the first-generation Pass-Key system used a resistance pellet in the keys, then the second-gen measured the resistance of the key itself. The current version doesn't use a special key at all--the electronics are embedded in the ignition module, and if it's tampered with, the car won't start. The main advantage is that you no longer have to "program" new keys to the car.
You really don't want to bring up the old skeletons in the manufacturer's closet. There is no way GM can hold up to Toyota's or Honda's reputation which is why GM is in the position it is in. It is not made up by the media or some right wing conspiracy. It is called bad management, period. GM is on the rebound and doing much better as far as quality and reliability. It will take time to restore their reputation. It took decades of bad decisions and sub-par cars to get where they are now and it will take at least a decade to convince the public they are a better company. I figure they have a few more years left in this cycle. The big questions is do they have enough cash to make it that long with their cash cows not selling well.
GM needs better, more fuel efficient small cars. The Volt is a nice idea but will have a very small impact in its early iteration. I'm sure things are in the works but if they include products like the Saturn Astra..... If the Astra is GM's idea of bringing their "great" products from Europe, they may as well close up shop now. They need to consolidate brands and stop competing against each other. They could probably eliminate Saturn or Buick and not see a drop in sales since many would move to other GM brands. I know they are trying to differentiate products but that creates different issues as you have to increase marketing to introduce these products to the public. GM has not done a good job of this with Saturn.
Actually, this statement is no longer true. The Saturn Astra comes with the switchblade style key.