GM News, New Models and Market Share

lemko

The Volt looks as much like the Malibu as does a Mercedes-Benz looks like a Ford Granada:


Volt


Malibu

bumpy

I would expect you more than most to not take their wink-and-nod protestations of innocence at face value. Whatever PR goon uploaded those pics to the GM website, then took them back down after one of the buff sites had discovered them, did so under instructions.

andre1969

Lemko, the Volt evidently has been toned down from that concept. I think this is the one people are complaining about for being too generic looking.

guss

It looks more like a Mazda3 to me.

fintail

I don't think that concept was feasible, so that actual vehicle shown is more realistic. On the concept, the interior window area must be about 4" tall.

andre1969

I think a lot of concept cars end up like that...they might be wild, exotic looking things, but just not practical to mass produce, so they have to tone them down.

2doorpost

Take the bowtie off the grill and that pic screams-

"I drive a Dodge Stratus"

jchevrolet

Lol funny--good one!!

lemko

Sheesh! Now I see! Looks like the second coming of the Lumina! They could've at least kept the front end and wheels from the concept.

nwng

just because GM does not know how to build a profitable compact car does not mean it is not being done by others. Toyota made most of their money up to now by building compact and medium size cars and crossovers. In 10 yrs, they went from building a vehicle that use a powertrain that was unproven and expensive (yes, they weren't sure themselves back in 97 how this hybrid powertrain thing will turn out) to now be able to achieve a profit margin similar to a regular compact car.

I guess they spend their R&D research with the premise that gas price will only go up from here and the big 3 believed it will be at $2 as far out as they can see

62vetteefp

I would expect you more than most to not take their wink-and-nod protestations of innocence at face value. Whatever PR goon uploaded those pics to the GM website, then took them back down after one of the buff sites had discovered them, did so under instructions.

I do know exactly what happened. It was an error. Nobody was told to do this and the person who did it by mistake.

62vetteefp

just because GM does not know how to build a profitable compact car does not mean it is not being done by others.

I never said they did not make a profit on their compact cars. All I showed was that at least the first gen and most likely the 2nd gen did not make money. I have not seen a cost for the hybrid stuff in any of the Prius's but if the battery and all the other Hybrid stuff is $2000 on the 3rd gen., then it was $4000 on the 2nd and $8000 on the first. I really doubt that they were getting another $8000 on the first gen over other compacts and doubtful another $4000 on the 2nd gen.

torque_r

As part of that strategy, Toyota expects that its next-generation Prius
will have a profit margin close to that of a traditional sedan like the
Corolla, a senior executive said on Friday.

That sounds to me they do make a profit even if with a small margin and that's an acheivement. As for the Corolla, that's a cash cow for Toyota. It's the World's most produced car for decades now. Any non-luxury passenger car will be lucky if it has a profit margin close to Corolla, not just the Prius.

nippononly

Bingo! I was trying to think what it looked like, and you put the right words on it - it looks like the second coming of the Lumina!

Or maybe, a Lumina made of marshmallows.

Or maybe the love child of the last Lumina and an Aveo sedan?

Thumbs up to the concept, thumbs wavering for the production Volt.....

....and torque's so right about the Corolla, one of the most profitable small cars in the world for its manufacturer. If they could produce Priuses on the grand scale of the Corolla, it would be much more profitable for them too. They announced years ago now, right before the intro of gen II in 2003/4 (which was it? 2003 as an '04 model I think), that they had broken even and begun to make a profit on the Prius. It may have been a small per-unit profit with a $3000 battery pack in the trunk, but a profit is a profit. And think of the goodwill it generated among the dealers: a car that would sell easily at full sticker, and would even generate a wait list.

As such, if GM chooses to sell what appears to be by far the most practical electric car produced thus far (the Volt) at a loss to get the technology out there, it is completely understandable, and an investment in their future. But at $40K I think they will have an uphill battle....

62vetteefp

The new Insight from Honda is getting the same comments. Issue is that to get the highest aero numbers to be able to get the high MPG numbers the shape of a 4 door compact sedan are gonna look very similar. The front end is gonna be as smooth as possible.

Now perhaps GM copied the Prius but it was not to get people to think, oh it looks like a Prius so I am gonna buy one!, no it was to get the high aero numbers.

andre1969

Now perhaps GM copied the Prius but it was not to get people to think, oh it looks like a Prius so I am gonna buy one!, no it was to get the high aero numbers.

Actually, I think GM did a fairly good job at sprucing up the styling, compared to the Prius. The Prius is kind of nerdy looking, and just TOO off-the-wall. The Volt, IMO at least, is a bit more pleasing to the eye. And when I look at it, the first thing that pops into my mind isn't the Prius but, oddly enough, the 1995-2000 Chrysler "cloud cars" (Breeze, Cirrus, Stratus) I see it mainly in the passenger cabin area.

2doorpost

I find it fascinating that GM is betting the farm on the Volt.

At a price point of 30k, the folks on the assembly line (the plant is gearing towards mostly 14/hr temps) will
never be able to afford such a car.
And as other industries follow suit by reducing their wages in tiers, nobody will be able to afford such a vehicle.
Keep in mind the length of the average commute- the fact that most places you work at won't let you plug in to recharge your car- and all the advantages of the Volt soon disappear.

Volt- Vega - Same plant- Same outcome.

nippononly

Well, they say 40-mile range under 40 mph without firing the engine, right?

My commute is about 5 miles at 65 mph. Then I drive out at lunch. Total for the day is about 20 miles or so, just normal workday driving. All of it is 65 mph. Could I do that without firing the engine? If so, I think it would be a phenomenal gas-saver for me, and there have to be other folks that don't drive more than 20 or 30 miles on their normal commutes, or have lower speed commutes.

OTOH iIf all driving over 40 mph causes the gas engine to fire, then the car would be worthless to me. In that case I will stick with small-engined 4-cylinder cars, which always get me my best mileage (even compared to the vaunted Prius).

As far as price tag, I agree it is steep. One thing GM could do to mitigate that would be to take the "Prius route" - offering all kinds of whiz-bang onboard technology to make the price more palatable to people.

vibsr

From what I read, the gasoline engine can recharge the batteries also.

2doorpost

The car would be useless to me- 36 mile one way commute (all freeway) and probably being fired for theft of services if I plugged in at work (unless corporate cultures change)
I put both of my kids in 4 cylinder 5 speed 04 Cavaliers (Made at Lordstown- go figure) and both enjoy miliage in the high 30's. The initial cost 8500.00/both was minimal, repairs are easy, and should get them through the next few years at the very least.
My other half drives 2 miles a day- her Sunfire ,an 03, still would be in warranty if not so old.
For GM to close out their J body (Cobalt) platform entirely to promote the Volt under present terms is suicide. Much will have to change to make it palatable to the public. Many beyond GM's control.

62vetteefp

For GM to close out their J body (Cobalt) platform entirely to promote the Volt under present terms is suicide. Much will have to change to make it palatable to the public.

Not sure what you are talking about here. The Cobalt replacement is coming in about 1 year and is said to get 45mpg highway.

62vetteefp

Well, they say 40-mile range under 40 mph without firing the engine, right?

Can you tell me where you got this?

Now this bike does that.
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/08/from-a2b-on-an.html

I did find this:

At 40 mph battery will discharge in 1 hour, at 60 mph battery will discharge in 40 minutes.

The current cost in the prototype of the Li-ion battery pack is about $20,000 (reference) , the goal price for production will be $5000.

So if you go at a steady 60mph you can go 40 minutes which is also amazingly 40 miles! That does not count running at lower speeds nor regeneration during braking.

http://gm-volt.com/2007/02/03/battery-investment/

nippononly

highlights an important problem: if we here who are probably more well-informed about cars than most members of the general public can't make sense of how well the Volt would serve our particular needs, how will GM provide real-world buyers with a tailored estimation of how much gas it might save them? Seems like the usual EPA testing regimen will be fairly useless with this model.

uplanderguy

Yes, I heard Lordstown will build the Cruze; haven't seen/heard anything that says the Volt will be built there.

Bill

2doorpost

Yeah your right- I got the two confused- they look alike to me anyhow. I still love my 04 Cavaliers and can live with their miliage (beside, they're paid for)

A friend of mine went for a job there- what a joke- they are hiring in their third shift as temps for 14 bucks an hour with no benefits. The Mahoning Valley was hit hard years ago by big steel and other industry folding. Now, jobs at 14.00 an hour are like gold. What a shame.

sls002

My understanding of the Volt is that it is an electric car with a motor generator to recharge/extend the battery. That means that the battery will power the car until it is discharged. So, if at 40 MPH it can go 40 miles in one hour, at 80 MPH the battery will probably take you less than 40 miles because more energy is required to cruise at 80 than at 40 (something like 10[7.5 watts] hp vs 35-40 hp[30 watts]).

62vetteefp

if at 40 MPH it can go 40 miles in one hour,

Can anybody tell me where this is coming from?

nippononly

That's what 40 MPH means: going 40 miles in one hour. :-P

I am sorry, I can't remember a specific source for the 40 mph thing I posted. It came out of something GM or Lutz announced some time ago. The 40 mph threshold is higher than the speed Prius will go without using its gas engine.

To partly address sls's implication, I don't believe they are designing the Volt to be able to make it to 80 mph without firing the gas engine. So if you routinely drive at those speeds, better to just go ahead and buy the base Corvette, as your mileage won't be much better in the Volt anyway!

jae5

No it does not. It sounds exactly like what it says.

Yes, it does. If you want to just settle for something, then that will work. But for my and many people's money, you want / get the best to get and afford, not the second best / also-ran. I'm not going to buy something simply because it's the cheapest I can get away with, settling for something that is less quality just to save a dollar or two (which ends up costing you more in the long run). This is what got GM into trouble in the past, especially with their interiors. And this is why now they are still second and third choice on a lot of buyers' list and have boosted sales somewhat when incentives are tossed out. They have made some strides but still have a lot of relapses into mediocre-dom in their lesser-trim models, and some higher-end ones as well.

sls002

The gas engine on the Volt is not part of the drive train as it is on the Prius. However, the power from the generator, powered by the gas engine, would be available to the electric motor and could augment the battery's capacity, which may be limited to how fast it can be discharged (perhaps less than 30 Kilowatts).

My previous post should have been kilowatts, not watts. One horsepower is 3/4 of a kilowatt. A kilowatt-hour is something else though. At 40 MPH we may have 7.5 kilowatt-hours after 40 miles

62vetteefp

first quote: There is nothing wrong with getting good value. Not everyone wants the very best that money can buy."

2nd: Maybe that should be re-worded, as that sounds like it is just settling for what's available.

3rd:No it does not. It sounds exactly like what it says. Not everyone wants to spend the money to get the best out there.

4rth: Yes, it does. If you want to just settle for something, then that will work. But for my and many people's money, you want / get the best to get and afford, not the second best / also-ran.

Amazing how things get twisted over time! We are long past the original quote but you added what is different, "and afford". As in the initial quote not everyone buys the very best money can buy. Well maybe they want it but they decide either they do not have the money or it is jusut not worth it. Back to the suits, some will buy the $150 suit, someone else $500 while even others would not settle for anything less than $1500.

circlew

OK.

CTS /w direct injection and Prem. Collection = $45,000

335xi w/Premium Package = $45,000

The second car is built better and still out performs the CTS.

Regards,
OW

sls002

GM's website suggests that the battery will have 16 k-watt-hours of storage. So, based on the 84 Corvette's power requirements, at about 40 MPH 8kw is needed, which should be about 2 hours of cruising. At 80 MPH, 32 kw, so 30 minutes of cruising. Obviously the 40 miles that the Volt will go must depend on how fast. It would be nice if its 40 miles while traveling either flat out or at least at the highest speed limits (75 MPH).

sls002

Can you provide a reference to prove this :shades:

210delray

Somehow I doubt the 40 miles will be at the highest speed limits (80 mph in West Texas!), let alone flat out.

I'd assume the 40 miles would be at typical commuting speeds in congested metro areas.

andre1969

The CTS is bigger than the 3-series, though. Maybe a better way of looking at it is that with the CTS, you're getting a 5-series sized car for a 3-series price?

bumpy

Yeah, but I could go out and buy a fully-loaded Lincoln MKS (?- the Taurus clone) and get a 7-series size car for a 1-series price. Most buyers who get a 3 do so because they want a car that size.

sls002

Really! The legal limit is 80!

cooterbfd

Save your breath Andre, he can't comprehend that. He can't comprehend that he spent $45,000 on a car that is 1/2 inch SMALLER than a Corolla.

sls002

Ah, a $45,000 Corolla :P Is it really $30,000 better than a Corolla

62vetteefp

Shares of General Motors Corp. surged 12% Thursday afternoon, buoyed by
falling oil prices and optimism that $25 billion in federal loans to the
auto industry could go a long way toward easing concerns of a financial
meltdown.

J.P. Morgan analyst Himanshu Patel said in a report Thursday that an
expected $25 billion in low-interest government loans would make
bankruptcies far less likely for GM or Ford Motor Co. He said the odds
of sizeable loans to the auto industry are higher than the market has
been assuming, with both presidential candidates supporting such a move.

Meantime, oil prices continued their retreat, testing the $100 mark for
the first time in several months, spurring hopes of a possible easing in
the fuel-price pressures that have kept consumers from buying pickup
trucks and sport-utility vehicles.

circlew

Sure! I used Edmunds. The CTS AWD was the 2009 with only the Premium ticked and the 335xi was the 2008 price w/PP so I added $1,500 for the 2009 price not up yet on the net.

Regards,
OW

210delray

Yep, on about 500 miles of I-10 and I-20 in the western part of the state.

I also recall reading that the Utah legislature has allowed the state transportation department to study the possibility of raising the limit on parts of I-15 to 80 mph. I don't know if any limits have in fact been raised.

sls002

The reference I wanted was one related to a comparison test performed by some competent agency (such as Road & Track) comparing the 3-series and the new CTS in a recent article.

sls002

I think speed limits should be limited to about 70 MPH. I have found that my Aurora and the SLS got much better fuel economy when I limited my cruising speed to 70. I have not cruised over 70 with the SRX, but it does seem to do better at under 70 than at 70. I suspect that cruising at 75-80 would burn more fuel.

I am not for reducing speed limits to 55. I think 65 would be a reasonable upper limit, but 70 would certainly reduce fuel consumption. With 80 as the limit, some people will be pushing 85, which will certainly increase consumption.

circlew

OK..I'm on it! Let's see what I can find.

Regards,
OW

circlew

Here's one from Edmunds.

2007-2008 Sport Sedans - CTS is 3rd Place, 335i Second Place

The CTS is one of the best Caddys in along time. You need to order the sport suspension to get the handling output experienced in the test.

The 335i speaks for itself and is still the benchmark but I did test the G35 and it is a great car...and value.

Regards,
OW

circlew

The CTS, Malibu, 'Vette and G8 are good cars. My posts on this board are skeptical because of the past. Things can change and always do. Hope GM keeps improving.

Standard for the World
This is the best Cadillac in 40 years. Sure, the direct-injection V6 is only adequate, but it's a great start. Even with the firmest FE-3 suspension package, the CTS proves GM knows how to walk the line between a compliant ride and ultimate handling.

The exterior styling may only be an evolution of the original CTS, but it's far more successful. It has a bolder stance and chic presence the previous car never did, even in CTS-V form. Meanwhile, the interior and mind-blowing infotainment system remind us of the time when Cadillac was called "The Standard of the World."

There's a flip side to the affirmation. The curse is that now that we've seen and experienced the exceptional 2008 Cadillac CTS, there can be no more excuses for mediocre vehicles from GM.

OK, General Motors, you've proved it once. Now the biggest challenge will be to do it again and again. That's how reputations are made.

Here is the full article link.

'08 CTS Full Test

Regards,
OW

62vetteefp

OK, General Motors, you've proved it once. Now the biggest challenge will be to do it again and again. That's how reputations are made.

And they have done it every time since. Malibu, Enclave, G8,

sls002

The 335 also has the sport package. However, the CTS offers three levels of suspensions, and the middle package is quite good with all season tires. I don't see how you can say that the BMW is the benchmark when it came in second.