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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,937
    But a sudden, unexpected 30% drop is a different story and at least initially, the different types of cost don't move in the same ratio.

    I'm sorry, but GM and Chrysler collapsing was a surprise to no one that didn't have their head in the sand for the last 20 years. People in this forum have been predicting GM and Chryslers inevitable demise and bankruptcy for probably a decade or more. If it was a surprise to you (or to any auto part supplier) then you simply had your head in the sand and deserved to go bankrupt.

    It wasn't sudden, it wasn't unexpected, it was like a several year-long slow-motion highlight reel (or in this case, a lowlight reel).
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,937
    I actually give Bush and Obama credit for making a tough, unpopular decision based on national needs and interests over electoral votes.

    Agreed. They had very tough situations and thank goodness they both stepped up and made those decisions. Even if I don't agree with all of them, I appreciate that they did the job.


    I have to disagree 100%, all Bush did was kick the can down the road so Obama would have to deal with the mess. If Bush was a real man he would have made one good decision in his lifetime and made the decision to not bailout the corrupt incompetent Loser 2 (GM & Chrysler). He made no decision at all; he effectively called a time out until he was out of office.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2011
    Yeah, but that can was full of $17.4 billion in loans for GM and Chrysler. (MSNBC)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    No big deal, but I thought I'd post for the info sake of things....

    GM expands recall of some 2011 trucks and SUVslink title
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,032
    I wouldn't want a Cimmaron at any price. I'll take a CTS-V, however.

    I probably shouldn't confess to this, but I don't think the later Cimarrons, with the V-6, were half-bad. No, I would never have bought one brand-new. But, if I found a nice, cheap, little-old-lady-owned one, it might make a neat little novelty piece.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I have to disagree 100%, all Bush did was kick the can down the road so Obama would have to deal with the mess. If Bush was a real man he would have made one good decision in his lifetime and made the decision to not bailout the corrupt incompetent Loser 2 (GM & Chrysler). He made no decision at all; he effectively called a time out until he was out of office.

    I was speaking more broadly, and including the financial bailouts that saved the (corrupt) banking system and our entire economy.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,454
    When I was in high school, a friend of mine had one - I think it was an 86 or 87, it was loaded, it didn't seem like the worst car, it was plush and not the slowest thing in the world.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    When I was in high school, a friend of mine had one - I think it was an 86 or 87, it was loaded, it didn't seem like the worst car, it was plush and not the slowest thing in the world.

    Even in the Cimarron days I remember seeing them on the road, and laughing to myself as to how anybody could be so duped into buying a Cavalier with some changed taillights and sheetmetal, for a much higher price. It seemed like the drivers were parading their idiocy for all to see.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,454
    I'd assume by the mid 90s one was worth little more than a normal Cadavalier. The guy I knew who had one didn't really care about cars.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    The franchise laws would apply to current manufacturers who have franchises correct? But if the manufacturer and corporation are lawfully shutdown/dissolved/liquidated, doesn't that then mean there are no franchisees?

    So if a corporation shutsdown on Fri., and you buy the assets of that corporation over the weekend, aren't you free on Mon. morning to hire workers as you see fit, and distribute product as you see fit, without necessarily having to deal with the former corporation's issues? You wouldn't have anything to do with the former labor pool and contracts, could renegotiate or choose new suppliers, wouldn't have pensions, wouldn't have to recall or repair former corporation vehicle problems ...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Exactly! On Monday, United State Auto could hire competent workers screened from the pool that would be available from GM and C last Friday.

    Same with the dealer network. Cull the bad, keep the good focused on direct delivery model. Dealers would be kept based on their service rating.

    Only need a few computers to help process sales and direct the delivery vehicles to the new owners at most locations which could be mega-showrooms. The model drastically cuts the inefficiency and uses technology to keep profits respectable and reinvest the (previous inefficiency) gains into product development.

    We call them "Auto Malls" so you need hundreds instead of thousands.

    What a concept!

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,897
    Even in the Cimarron days I remember seeing them on the road, and laughing to myself as to how anybody could be so duped into buying a Cavalier with some changed taillights and sheetmetal, for a much higher price. It seemed like the drivers were parading their idiocy for all to see.

    We agree on this! But like most things, cars people remember as great and those that are rememberd as terrible, usually were neither...somewhere in the middle. Cavaliers were a cheap car, but I still see twenty-year old ones driving around here in the salt-laden midwest. They must not have been awful.

    But to have bought a Cimarron new, had to mean you weren't car-savvy at all! I often thought the same thing when I saw people driving AMC Alliances or Encores (I know, the Alliance was MT's Car of the Year).
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2011
    The franchise laws would apply to current manufacturers who have franchises correct? But if the manufacturer and corporation are lawfully shutdown/dissolved/liquidated, doesn't that then mean there are no franchisees?

    I don't think your example works when the Phoenix rises. Lots of states have weird laws about how cars must be sold and they aren't just directed at curbsiders. Some states require a physical office and a repair facility, minimum inventory, etc.

    Here's an eHow blurb that I assume is mostly correct:

    The Requirements for a Texas Car Dealer License

    GM tried direct eBay sales for a while there, as did another manufacturer that I've forgotten. But how many Wal-Marts or Costcos do you see selling cars? Some states won't let a car dealer wholesale a car to another dealer (you have to have a special occupational license to do that). The list of odd rules makes it a bit complicated.

    Maybe a manufacturer could set up one office in each state and sell cars that way, but I bet they'd run into the same issue if they wanted to put a satellite shop up somewhere to do warranty work.

    Let's say your idea worked and Kernick Motors wound up with the New New GM, and you were going to sell cars direct in every state. You got the bankrupt assets for .02 cents with a clean slate - no unions, no back rent, nothing.

    Now, you have to convince your suppliers to fill your pipeline with parts and the fragile ones (and the smart ones) are going to want cash, not terms. Don't forget to pay the light and water bill.

    So you stockpile some parts, hire some people and start building some SUVs and sedans. (Don't forget to leave some money in the budget to replace some of the tooling destroyed by disgruntled workers when they found out that their jobs were history).

    How much do you have budgeted for the lawyers and lobbyists to get your license to sell your cars in every state? One of the Yahoo answers posters I skimmed worked for a DMV and said it took anywhere from three months to a year to get a license to sell a car.

    Hope you have deep pockets to keep NNKM going until the first car lands in the parking lot. GM and Chrysler kept selling cars all through their bankruptcies. I bet it'd take you over a year to start generating any cash flow.

    Penske might have managed it. But he must know something we don't. ;)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,681
    edited January 2011
    A roommate from college had one among his collection of cars that he bought sightly used. It was a 5 speed manual IIRC. I do not recall V6 or 4-cyl. He loved it.

    He had an older Jeep, an AMC vehicle, all kinds. He mostly looked at practicality for travel in snow in Shaker Heights and for economy in the rest.

    It actually was a practical upscale appointments car for the era. It was not a BMW slayer or replacement for 99.9% of the people. That was the way advertising presented it in my mind.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    edited January 2011
    But how many Wal-Marts or Costcos do you see selling cars?

    Actually Costco just refers to you the nearest dealer; they don't "sell" a vehicle. They only act as an intermediary to have a pre-established price between you and the dealer.

    How much do you have budgeted for the lawyers and lobbyists to get your license to sell your cars in every state?

    Every "disconnected" dealer and their lobbyists would have a lot of incentive to help me one way or the other. They would still have all their licenses. I'd just need to sign new franchise agreements with those I wanted to.

    But the fortunate thing with GM, is that U.S. sales don't really matter that much do these days do they? So while I have reduced production during restart, I can sell to my main overseas markets.

    But your right someone does need a few billion in the bank, or a line-of-credit. I'm sure in "this national emergency" which the Big 3 were in, a line-of-credit could be arranged thru one of the government "owned" banks (like Citi). I'm sure if Penske was offered GM's assets string-free to buy and run, he would have taken it. But I bet what was offered was GM with all its old-albatrosses on it.

    What was done with GM and C was the best deal for those who had an interest in the wealth and power surrounding the auto industry. That's exactly what was done with the banks and Wall Street. The people who have the money and power in those industries were protected from serious loss by the taxpayer/federal treasury.

    The wealthy and powerful benefited after taking excessive risks and years of poor management. Everyone else paid to keep their failed systems running. BTW - watch out with your retirement. The same failed banks and Wall Street firms that survived are larger currently after having absorbed the few failed firms! They are still running the same risky casino they were over the last decade! If Tim Greitner did nothing good, at least read what he said a couple weeks ago concerning the danger of another, larger financial problem.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    But to have bought a Cimarron new, had to mean you weren't car-savvy at all! I often thought the same thing when I saw people driving AMC Alliances or Encores (I know, the Alliance was MT's Car of the Year).

    At the time I actually thought the AMC Alliance was a nice car. :surprise:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Actually Costco just refers to you the nearest dealer

    Yeah, that's what I meant. They couldn't sell cars if they wanted to.

    Excellent point about selling overseas. You could be the biggest US manufacturing exporter overnight. Or just ship the tooling to China or wherever. Seems like GM is doing a bit of that themselves.

    I "retired" between the ages of 30 to 50, and I'm actually enjoying working more now that I'm pushing 60. :-)
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited January 2011
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,032
    At the time I actually thought the AMC Alliance was a nice car.

    I think a lot of people did, when they first came out. They seemed like a promising little car. The ad copy of the time really built up the European ancestry of the car (handling, space efficiency, etc), and I remember the commercials of the time saying stuff like "Now, more than ever, Renault is THE ONE TO WATCH!"

    Then, fast forward a couple years, and Renault is running commercials touting Zero percent financing on Friday night during "V: The Series".
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,897
    Hey Forrest, was that car in your neighborhood? Like the two SRX's you saw burning, yourself? And every Lambda you're behind, smelling like gas? Wow, you are in the right place at the right time, for a guy who hates GM.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Riiiight... I know it's teh Internet but your accusations are a bit exaggerated. But it's nice to see you keeping track of the things I post, sorry the truth is hard to swallow with all the koolaid in your mouth.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,897
    edited January 2011
    Come on anything, are you expecting us to believe that you actually saw two SRX's burning yourself, when only 2,900 were recalled in the entire recall? I'm reminded of the Jon Lovitz character on SNL--"uh, yeah...that's the ticket!"
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • maple2maple2 Member Posts: 177
    my personal fave is the one about his "buddy" who used to be a Gm service manager who got sick of driving lemons so traded his sierra in for a tundra.

    "For anyone who has rented a gasoline-powered GM automobile in the past score, you'll know that returning a whip with a fuel tank that's just 90 percent full won't quite cut it, and you'll be stuck ponying up for your oversight. "

    He cant even copy and paste without adding his own twist
    in the referenced article it says "gasoline-powered automobile"

    He just HAD to throw GM in there to look good
    So i guess he would like us to believe this policy does not apply to imports?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    A ex-girlfriend's roommate had a beige Alliance. Anybody remember the Fuego? One of the kids who was a star basketball player in my high school had a new one. Good thing he played ball better than he bought cars!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited January 2011
    Here's a few of his more obscure cut-n-paste postings:

    "...a vicious GM pitbull mauled a three year-old child."
    "...armed GM robber kills convenience store clerk."
    "...Osama GM Laden believed to be in Pakistan."
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,454
    I'll sheepishly admit that I very much liked the Fuego when I was 5-6 years old - I even got a poster of one from the local dealer. Kind of wish I still had it.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,032
    Well, while we're at it, GM killed my father, raped and murdered my sister, burned my ranch, shot my dog, got my neighbor's cat pregnant, and stole my Bible!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,009
    GM killed my father, raped and murdered my sister, burned my ranch, shot my dog, got my neighbor's cat pregnant, and stole my Bible!

    Romancing the Stone, love that movie!

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited January 2011
    Read this and tell me you didn't wish it was Malibu they were reviewing...

    Car of the Year 2011

    Still waiting......................................... :sick:

    Regards,
    OW
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,032
    The Kia Optima is still just a rebadged Sonata, like it has been in the past, right? Well, I gotta tell you, with the Sonata, my only issue with it is the way it looks.

    Well, IMO at least, the Optima takes care of the ugliness issue. I'm not gonna say it's better than sex, but that thing is pretty darned attractive!
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Yeah, i like the new Optima. There's not a Kia dealer for miles around but that's a nice looking car.

    I don't mind the Sonata look but the Kia is nicer.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,454
    I think the Optima is light years ahead of the Sonata in the looks department. Not perfect by any means, but very inoffensive while not completely bland. The fender "vents" and 7 year old Audi wheels are iffy, but I'll take it over the Sonata.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited January 2011
    Ok so....

    image

    or....

    image

    Easy choice....for some. Difficult for others. ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    That Kia looks like it was taken off an Italian Alfa or something doesn't it? Not sure I'm really keen on either, but I'll give the Kia some time before I decide.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,032
    Now I'll say this much...I don't think the Malibu's a bad looking car, I just happen to like the Kia more. I think the biggest issue with the Malibu for me is those big, innocent-looking Bambi-eyed headlights. Also, the area where the hood and grille join just seems a bit swollen. It's not horrible, but I just think the Kia has a more aggressive stance to it. I like the smaller, more decently-sized headlight cluster. Only thing I find a bit odd is that pinched-in-the-middle grille.

    In the end though, if forced to choose between the two, I'd pick the car that suited my needs and just fitted me the best. Based on style, I'd pick the Optima, but, if the Malibu was decent where it mattered, like comfort, performance, fuel economy, reliability, etc, it's still decent enough that I'd pick it. Alas, I have a feeling it won't, though. :sick:
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Easy choice....for some. Difficult for others.

    They both look awful. The GM looks like it came out of that "Mediocrity" ad, or was at least 30-40% of the inspiration for it (most of the rest being a Camry). The Kia looks like someone in the art department spent too much time playing with their Hot Wheels.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    In the end though, if forced to choose between the two, I'd pick the car that suited my needs and just fitted me the best. Based on style, I'd pick the Optima, but, if the Malibu was decent where it mattered, like comfort, performance, fuel economy, reliability, etc, it's still decent enough that I'd pick it. Alas, I have a feeling it won't, though. :sick:

    That's pretty much how I see it. The current Malibu doesn't excite or offend me. Considering how awful the previous gen looks, the current bu looks great, but compared to the competition it definitely is time for a refresh.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    ...having spent seat time and demo time with the Kia, I can definitely say it is a very legitimate entry in this segment and probably one of the front runners in features, design, styling and performance. Even the 200 hp non-turbo model it drove and handled beautifully and the interior is extremely quiet. I would also say that while the engine was spunky it was not as smooth as a Honda 4-cylinder or as quiet as the Camry 4-cyl. I would put it on par with the Altima 4-cyl though which my sister has and I have driven on occasion.

    Like many others, I've only had experience with the Rentabu in Florida last spring and while it's a step above the dinky model that was the last generation, it was still tight in the back, the interior looks the part but is hollow and cheap feeling and the seats were poorly padded (this one had 13k miles on it and the cloth was full of lint and hairballs). And that tail... ugly.

    I SO wanted to try the new Fusion but they had about 10 of these things and all the Fusions were booked. :(
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Looks like there is a new new winner for this year... after 2 years with the title, the Rentabu loses its crown.

    2011 Ford Fusion/Fusion Hybrid Named Fleet Car of the Year
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited January 2011
    On the fleet side, my wife's employer no longer offers GM vehicles for company cars. No Rentabu or Blapala for her. The Fusion and Taurus are the replacements.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    My father is on his second Grand Prix and while the first one managed to rack up over 200k with only a few issues, the new one doesn't seem to be following the same trend and it's only at 45k or so.

    He's looking at the new Taurus as well. One of the other appealing factors is the available AWD, especially with the winter we are having up here in New England...

    I hope to join him on the test drive. :D
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    He's looking at the new Taurus as well. One of the other appealing factors is the available AWD, especially with the winter we are having up here in New England...

    My wife has a Taurus on order, but for whatever reason it doesn't have a delivery date until the end of March. So it will be a while until I can report how I like the car.

    The only thing positive I will say about the Grandprix is that it has over 80k and has been reliable. That's the only positive thing I can say about it. Though the powersteering has been making nasty whining noises, nothing has actually failed on it.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The Kia's styling is more edgy. The Kia grille kinda looks like a stylized "H" and would look good on a Honda.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I don't like the Taurus styling - it's way too busy up front. What's with those perforated grille bars? Looks like they ran out of chrome bars and had to use the vertical pieces from steel shelving. I would look much better with a simple Fusion-esque grille like the previous generation.

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,454
    My biggest irks with the Kia are the odd Honda grille and the upkick at the C-pillar. Small nits to pick I guess. I haven't driven one, but that thing might be the Korean mainstream sedan I'd be most willing to ever look at.

    The Malibu isn't particularly bad looking in any way - less sharp than the admittedly new and fresh Kia. I wonder when it will be updated.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The Malibu's not bad, just getting old. Something about the Kia's wheels I don't like. It's more pronounced in the TV commercial. They kind of look like cheap aftermarket wheels that you would get at Pep Boys or Auto Zone.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,454
    They are copies of Audi concept wheels from several years ago, which made it into limited production. Kia bought itself an Audi designer, who apparently likes that style.

    GM let the 97 Malibu wither on the vine for an eon, they'd best not let the current model fare likewise.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,681
    The shape of the front grill on the Taurus looks like Mick Jagger's lips or some pouty wannabe model with injected liplines.

    I find the rear is kicked way up and detached appearing.

    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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