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Anyway, lets not dance around the fact that GM knew this yet allowed it to go to market with a 40 mile range rating when in fact under different temps it did not get that with them and did not inform customers until after the fact. Just another example of shaddy tactics by the automakers, just like Toyota and the rest.
We are not taking a few miles difference here (like 5-10 miles), there are people reporting a 20-25mile difference and that is pretty substantial to what the car is suppose to to. That is too much variability if you ask me.
Heat definitely kills more batteries than cold. The difference with cold is the actual amp output is reduced and an engine requires more amps to start at low temps. So starting issue are more likely to happen in cold temps as amp output and amp capacity drop. Thats why batteries have a cold cranking amp rating and that's at 32 degrees I think. As the temp goes below 32, so does the amp output.
Just talk to people who live in Vegas or other severely hot climates, a battery is lucky to last just a few years.
I'm willing to bet the Nissan Leaf will have the same problem in the cold. Heating the car alone probably sucks up a lot of juice, probably more than cooling. Then add the other areas of lost efficiency due to the cold.
For God sake, in the reports, GM "NOW" states that in their work they had some problems with the battery in colder weather. Why was that not stated before they let people buy the vehicle? What what you call that. Any common sense person would say thats being dishonest. They had information on a potential issue but did not disclosed it till after people complained and/or bought the vehicle. Have they not learned anything from the recent Toyota fiasco? I mean come on :sick:
Prius starts at $23k but it's a stripped car. The $28k is more comparable to the Volt's standard features.
Volt is at $40k but would be at $33k after government incentive.
So it's more like a $28k vs $33k. Volt is a much nicer looking and driving car.
GM is not late to the game; they actually lead in battery technology and the all important future electric car design. Their electric only range is 5 times greater than the Prius plug-in. Actually Toyota is late to the plug-in and electric car game and that's why they are trying to learn from Tesla.
Why GM went bankrupt? Blame it on the greedy and lazy American union workers. While GM US had to use bankrupt to get rid of unions; GM China has been super successful in China because no union there.
It's not true. The Prius at $23k is a stripped car; the $28k is more comparable to the volt. Volt's net price would be $33k after government incentive.
So it's more like a $33k vs $28k, far from twice.
Nothing particular well? Gee... Prius is such a lifeless and dull car. The acceleration is a joke; the steering is like a computer game wheel. Its gas is engine rough; and it rattles in multiple places.
Volt is a much better looking and driving car. The 40 mile electric only range means most of the people do not need any gasoline for daily commute.
Reliability? Take a look at the JD Power dependability test result; GM's Buick is No. 3 last year (was No. 1 a few years back), Cadillac is also good. The other 2 GM brands are lower than average though.
But Toyota is No. 6, below 3 American brands. This was before the 14 million Toyota recalls.
So it's more like a $33k vs $28k, far from twice.
Well, one could argue that you can at least GET a Prius for $23k, so if it's more an argument about the capability of the hybrid vs. the amenities, his statement is still correct.
Volt is a much better looking and driving car. The 40 mile electric only range means most of the people do not need any gasoline for daily commute.
Better driving, I'm sure you are correct. Better looking? - I think they're both pretty ugly, personally.
Not needing gasoline for the daily commute is not such a big advantage given the electricity prices in CA - which is the largest auto market in the U.S.!
Never mind the greedy and clueless management and the junk cars they produced. The entire corporation rotted from the inside out.
Regards,
OW
World-Class Reliability Still a Dream at GM
The YR1 Volt will fall apart in 5 years and cost way more than a Prius to maintain, afaic.
Regards,
OW
Plus, take the JD Power stuff with a grain of salt. That study to, is only conducted during the first 3 years of ownership when any car is at their prime and dependability. I'd like to see more studies done with long term results, 5+ years, which is an area GM has always had problems in. As someone else pointed out, CR just ranked them low for reliability which would completely contradict JD Power, but CR does more on long term reliability which I put more stock in and please don't give us the they hate American company routine when FORD is ranked highly and have all their vehicles on the recommended list.
You can blame the unions for some of the bankruptcy and financial issues but that sure doesn't explain many decades of poor quality/low reliability products from those supposedly skill workers designing and building the cars. :P
It does have Bluetooth.
The Volt after tax credit is $33,500 and comes with dozens of added features like auto dim mirror, 7 spkrs in place of 4, cruise controls on steering wheel, turn signals on heated mirrors.
Suddenly, 2:1 isn't even 3:2 on price.
No; GM came out the EV1 more than 10 years ago; earlier than anyone else. It was too early for the time. Later Toyota came out the hybrid which was a older technology than the EV. Now GM is leading the EV again with gasoline backup.
Buick is better than Toyota according to JD Power. My personal experience also shows same result (I count the dead cars along the freeway when I drive and a lot Toyotas there).
If Toyota was so great, why did they recall 14 million cars in just over one year?
PS, reliability is not everything about a car. The driving experience is more important in my book.
The ugly wives are more reliable than the pretty ones. Which one do you pick?
JD Power vehicle dependability used be a 5-year-old car study. Since it's so important to the automakers and 5 year is beyond car re-design cycle so it would not help the automakers in the next generation re-design. So by popular requests, JD Power changed the 5-year-old study to 3-year-old study so its results are just in time for the next re-design cycle.
CR is a closed loop study surveying its paid subscribers only. So it only reinforce its own bias. The people who do not agree with their bias would not renew their subscription thus would be out of the loop. This study method is not scientific at all.
Then how do you explain that GM is No. 1 in China, the world's largest auto market?
But the Volt is not a Buick. According to CR, GM is WAY down the reliability scale vs. Toyota.
If Toyota was so great, why did they recall 14 million cars in just over one year?
Personally I don't drive Toyota and don't like them much. I think they're boring and chintzy. BUT talking about a recall to fix a problem that was seen by an infinitesimal number of drivers is apples and oranges to overall reliability, where Toyota still excels vs. GM.
The driving experience is more important in my book.
Agreed. I won't even tell you about my recent Malibu rental - I posted it on the GM forum. :shades:
Agreed. I won't even tell you about my recent Malibu rental - I posted it on the GM forum.
Yet you like to drive a Prius?
The recent Toyota recalls are much broader than the sudden unintended accelerations; there are steering problem, fuel tank leaks, engine slugs, frame rusts, etc. They affect millions of cars. You don't think these are reliability issues?
To me a reliability problem is if I see the problem. If I had owned a Toyota recalled for the accelerator pedal issue but had never seen it manifested, I wouldn't call that a reliability issue. If I had owned a truck that was recalled for possible frame rusting and didn't have any rust, I wouldn't call that a reliability issue. Only if my frame actually HAD rust. So out of 14 million recalled, how many actually had symptoms of those issues? I suspect extremely few.
As an example, I had a recall for my Acura's external temperature sensor firmware. I never had any trouble with it and it was handled during an oil change. And nothing else has ever gone wrong with the car.
That's fair; a much better statement than someone here claiming the Volt would fall apart in 5 years for sure.
There a broad issues of the Toyota recalls. Other than the pedal problem, all the other issues will most likely show up to all those cars over time and become reliability problems by your definition if not recalled.
We're mostly in agreement. I think our difference is the definition of reliability. I believe Toyotas are quite reliable, better than most makes. Agreed that they are cutting corners, QC has gone downhill, and their handling of the SA issue was a disaster. And I wouldn't buy one.
You could ask the same thing about GM in the U.S. They were and may still be #1 in sales volume. Why? Because dad bought GM? they have more dealers? they do well in NASCAR that year?
And China is an emerging market for autos. GM's competition in China consists of quite a few new Chinese companies right? It's not exactly a high quality environment?
I am sure you use the same tenets for judging recalls on GM products now and in the past, don't you?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What difference does it make if everyone's Cadillac and Buick is great the first 3 years under warranty but then stuff starts falling apart at 4, 5, and 6 years old and starts costing a lot of money to keep up? The point is, GM still needs to prove that their long term reliability is not in the gutter like it used to be.
Regards,
OW
Yes, I said that and it was an opinion. Let's see if I am wrong. Year one done. Now we start year 2.
Peruse Chevrolet's February sales release, and you'll notice one number that's blatantly missing: how many Chevy Volts were sold. The number – a very modest 281 – is available in the company's detailed data (PDF), but it apparently isn't something that GM wants to highlight. Keeping the number quiet is understandable, since it's lower than the 321 that Chevy sold in January.
Nissan doesn't have anything to brag about here, either (and it avoided any mention of the Leaf sales in its press release). Why? Well, back in January, the company sold 87 Leafs. In February? Just 67. Where does that leave us? Well, here's the big scorecard for all U.S. sales of these vehicles thus far:
* Volt: 928
* Leaf: 173
Ouch. The big questions, of course, revolve around one word: "Why?" Is ramping up production still a problem? Is demand weak? Are unscrupulous dealers to blame? When will sales start to climb? And what are these numbers doing to plug-in vehicle projects at other automakers?
I guess that $5,000 advantage that the Prius has means something...
Regards,
OW
I don't care if people flock to Priuses, Volts, Insights, Leafs, Teslas, whatever. Anything to get us off our dependence on foreign oil and out from under the avaricious thumb of greedy Big Oil is a good thing.
I've had my 1989 Cadillac Brougham for 22 years as of January 28th. It's still going strong and still looks awesome!
I don't know how you do it. I've never had ANY vehicle go anywhere near 100k miles w/o an expensive repair or two.
I've owned a few imports, but I didn't keep them long enough to determine long term reliability.
I've always performed all routine maintenance when needed. Ford or GM, it seems I get to know a mechanic quite well.
Even my wife's GP with 85k is going to cough up a power steering pump at any moment. It sounds horrible, I can her car from a block away. She's just trying to nurse it a few more weeks until her Taurus comes in. I'll see first hand if Ford has really improved or not. My 07 Expedition certainly hasn't been outstanding in terms of reliability. Not as bad as my Suburban, but still disappointing.
I would apply those criteria evenly for all brands. I've not made any big issues about GM recalls; perhaps others have?
Interesting. I've never had an expensive repair before 100K miles - with Honda, Mercury, even VW. Except for my Audi.
I don't have the guts to buy from GM any how. I got away from Ford and switch to Acura Integs and I swear they were bullet proof. Then I jumped into a Type S Acura's entry level and left them after they made the TSX. I jumped ship because of the cost. Acura sales went down since then.
Everybody is talking about the new Focus but, when it comes to American cars ,I"ll have to wait and see. I have this phobia I guess for quality.
By Chinese law, every foreign automaker has to operate in China in joint venture and can only hold up to 50% of the ownership. That's how every one, including BMW, VW, Toyota, Honda etc.