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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Maybe corporate welfare and endless gifts to the top few could be translated into lower corporate taxes.

    What about all of the handouts and endless gifts to the bottom many? :P
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I don't know how the ad dollars flow in here, but I doubt that all the dollars would have been replaced if GM had gone away. I bet they were cut a lot just because of the bankruptcy.

    No more motherhood and apple pie for you! :blush:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Good money after bad has no basis in the world of business. Only politics and more waste.

    That's right, the bailout was a waste at the end of the day.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Taking well paying technical jobs and replacing them with McJobs is exactly what got us into our current situation.

    That is NOT what happened in GM and C's case. The well-paid jobs led to the failure because the cost exceeded the return.

    Let's not make it more complicated. If you are good and deserve the pay, you will find work...not being paid for not working as was the case for the UAW. :mad:

    Remember a whole lot of people need to find new work as a result of the incompetent management and UAW at all 3 Detroit automakers over the last 40 years.

    It's really a decline that will be marked as a black era in our industrial history. How the decline was not met with innovative change to ensure long term survival will be the next generations education.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Steve, all's I am saying is the it should not be GM today but a new company.

    You don't want to loose your job when GM looses more market share and tanks again because the disease is still alive and well, now, do you? ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Nope, I like razzing you guys. :D
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yeah, I got it! But I would rather donate to Edmunds than bail out GM just to keep you going! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Nope, I like razzing you guys.

    REALLY now!

    I think the UP has gotten to your head!
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738

    That is NOT what happened in GM and C's case. The well-paid jobs led to the failure because the cost exceeded the return.


    This isn't about GM. It's about the larger national picture of an America that's reduced to being a bunch of peasants and fast food workers. Incompetent or not, we can't just simply throw away entire sections of our infrastructure and heavy industries if we want to remain competitive in the future. Because once it's gone, it's not coming back.

    Look, let's be clear here:
    The multi-national corporations see the entire planet as their playing field, exactly the same as nations did 200 years ago. The U.S. is merely a piece in the puzzle and nothing more. If we aren't useful to them, they will whore us out to make a profit without any reservation. And giant corporations outside of the U.S. are more than happy to exploit us if they can.

    Just like the major powers did to smaller nations that they forced to be their colonies.

    The nations where their headquarters are nice. Take Japan. I love the people, the country, and all of that. But the mega-corporations that control most of it are as soulless, greedy, unethical, and corrupt as any of the enemies that we faced in the Cold War. They worship money and power, pure and simple. If we don't get our act together right now and start to protect ourselves and our industry, we'll simply turn into the world's biggest serfdom.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Incompetent or not, we can't just simply throw away entire sections of our infrastructure and heavy industries if we want to remain competitive in the future. Because once it's gone, it's not coming back.

    Well we threw out massive defense industries in SoCal in the Clinton years. And we have thrown out our space capability with the retirement of the shuttle. So it happens all the time. Why are autoworkers more special than everybody else? Because they're unionized?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,419
    edited April 2011
    Keeps the top few from becoming headless. It's insurance. The bottom 80% have as much as what, the top 2% now? We'll see how long that lasts. If there's anything our souless treacherous corporate and financial elite have proven, it is that they have no clue about sustainability.

    The idea of the US having lower corporate taxes to match fantasylands like Ireland, Malaysia, Switzerland, etc is pretty much insane.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    The idea of the US having lower corporate taxes to match fantasylands like Ireland, Malaysia, Switzerland, etc is pretty much insane.

    Then don't be surprised when the jobs continue to flow to more profitable locations.

    TANSTAAFL!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,419
    edited April 2011
    No, seriously, there is no way a superpower can compete with those little glorified banana republics when it comes to operating expenses.

    The jobs can only be stolen (and it is in essence, theft) for so long. The pendulum, or blade, will swing back. Ignore it all you want.

    Free lunch? We give it to false nations like Israel, maybe some pharma jobs have been moved there too.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited April 2011
    Free lunch? We give it to false nations like Israel...

    Well compared to the rest of that neighborhood, I don't see Israeli citizens demonstrating in the streets. Perhaps they are a bit more evolved.

    On topic, will GM's market share hold this year? Will be interesting to see. With Toyota's screwups and the earthquake, it looks like an opportunity!
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Well Steve, if GM had been shutdown and put up for sale, and I won the bid, I would have signed a promise to not outsource anymore than current, and to employ U.S. workers.

    The workers in my plants might have been former UAW if they still wanted to work, and there wouldn't be any legacy pension costs; so I think I could have afforded to keep advertising with Edmunds, while lowering the cost of GM's vehicles 15% or 20% across-the-board. In fact, if I had GM's plants, tooling, and designs with those cost cuts, and the corresponding drop in MSRP that I would implement, my GM's marketshare would go up, I'd be running the plants a full 3-shifts, and with the economies of scale, I would lower the prices again!

    I could have no worse results than what GM's executives did starting from the days of 50% market-share, nor no worse for the city of Detroit.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    OK, so let's discuss whether the new GM is financially sound now? Financially sound enough to stand on its own 2 feet, if as manypundits who predicted the 2008 financial issues are right again - that the recovery from 208 has been achieved by the Fed and government "blowing even larger bubbles" - the large gains in the stock market over the last year due to the Fed's QE policies.

    So we have an economy with high real inflation - gas, food, health insurance, low pay increases, benefit cuts, increasing public sector layoffs and givebacks, double-dip real estate markets, Fed hurting savers by keeping interest rates lower, unsustainable Federal annual debt, and global economies in debt ... we are headed for quite the hang-over! QEII and the resultant stock market bubble is just 1 more type of drug. Probably within the next 18 months, the party is coming to an end. Is GM ready for the next financial bust? Do they have their financing lined up, so they're not crying "no one's giving loans right now." Poor DUMB, unprepared babies!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    OK. One more time. If the products are the best, you must pay the trade staff to make those products. Even with heavy automation, the staff supports the manufacturing system. Hamburger flippers need not apply but neither incompetence protected by a contract.

    Not strike when the weather changes and make 3rd rate products....and then pay the high wages on top of that?

    What a system....fail.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666

    OK, so let's discuss whether the new GM is financially sound now?


    OK.

    “We believe investors had a positive perception of Liddell as C.F.O. and viewed him as a potential C.E.O. candidate in the coming years,” Adam Jonas, an automotive analyst with Morgan Stanley, wrote in a note to clients. “This move could also reignite concerns about potential instability in G.M.’s management ranks.”

    Omen #1

    More to come....

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Pretty soon when you shut down enough companies, there's nowhere for anybody to work. "Oh, GM just shut down? No problem! Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc. will pick up the slack!" Uh-uh!

    Here's a LONG list of Philadelphia employers that are long gone. Gee, I wonder why there is so much crime and poverty?

    Budd
    Botany 500
    Baldwin Locomotive
    Breyer's Ice Cream
    Bill Blass
    Fleer Gum
    Philco
    Dodge Steel
    General Electric
    Jack Frost Sugar
    Whitman's Chocolate
    Marcus-Pincus
    Goldtex
    Stetson Hat
    Publicker Distillery
    Schmidt's
    Ortleib's
    Esslinger
    Gretz
    New York Ship
    Mrs. Paul's
    Sears
    Canada Dry
    Heintz Corp.
    Purex
    Keebler
    Bachmann Plastics
    Quaker Lace
    Flexible Flyer
    Atwater-Kent
    Exide Battery
    And countless other textile, aparrel, and other manufacturers...
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    AMEN, BROTHER!!! PLETKO FOR PRESIDENT!!!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited April 2011
    Low pay increases? Try NO PAY INCREASES!!! Of course the price of everthing else goes up! Pretty soon Old Milwaukee and ramen noodles will be costly luxuries while we're eating Chinese-manufactured cat food and dying of the same poison that killed Fluffy.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That's one way to solve the obesity problem.

    "The No. 1 title, a morale booster for the winner’s employees and managers, would cap GM’s remarkable comeback from bankruptcy."

    Toyota’s troubles likely to make General Motors No. 1 again (Chicago Sun-Times)
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Time for that reported to go take a Finance class, or to refresh. Repeat after me - Sales Volume and Revenues are not nearly as important as PROFITS and having LOTS of CASH (Flow).

    GM was #1 in sales volume/market-share for the many years on its road to bankruptcy. So do you think being #1 is a good indicator of success?

    Being #1 in sales meant they had a lot of retirees, a lot of factories, and a lot of current employees that in a downturn, are nooses around GM's neck! Having a lot of models and divisions can be another set of nooses, as each absorb resources to continually update and market the divisions and models.

    GM needs a flexible workforce and work-rules. It needs reserves of cash and lines-of-credit. It needs to limit its models, making popular models and making lots of each. GM needs profits from those popular models. GM then needs to resist the pressure to payout those profits to its employees as excessive increased wages, benefits, and bonuses.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,419
    edited April 2011
    I never got the name of this secret ideal tax haven from earlier...was that it?

    That 51st state evolved? Give me a break. They have nothing to demonstrate about - their entire being is funded by idiots in NA and Europe.

    GM should have nowhere to go but up - the products are much improved and some of the competition is stagnant, but I wouldn't stake any of my money on the vision and drive of its executive sector.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited April 2011
    Repeat after me - Sales Volume and Revenues are not nearly as important as PROFITS and having LOTS of CASH (Flow).

    Especially when the sales volumes are propped up by forcing them into inventory where nobody will notice that slow sellers are actually slower than what is being reported monthly...

    "Channel Stuffing"

    Between Feb. and March this year alone, the overstock has gone up 65 thousand cars, not a couple of dozen... 65 thousand :sick:

    But Gov. motors would like you to believe they have hot selling product on their hands, like the Volt. Yup, sooooo many people waiting to get one, "can't build them fast enough"yet 370 of them go unsold on dealer lots...

    More smoke being blown up our rears.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    2011 will be a great year to get year-end cars at good discounts. ;)

    Seriously, who in their right mind would buy a GM car at any other time than after the new models come out? GM needs to cut back and stop selling to fleets and rental agencies entirely.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I never got the name of this secret ideal tax haven from earlier...was that it?

    Tax havens are not secret - look them up! I gave 3 examples and I'm sure there are others.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,419
    You had referred to one in particular, the name never released. Funny.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,419
    Judging by the amount of rental Kias, Hyundais, and Nissans in my area, someone else is taking some of the fleet volume.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Breyer's Ice Cream

    My favorite ice cream by far! They still sell it. Where did they move to? I do think there quality and taste has slipped just a bit in recent years...., but still really good.

    Since they didn't disappear, they must of just not liked your area!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    My last 3 rentals were a Mazda 3, Kia Optima, Toyota Versa.

    Granted, the toyota came from a toyota dealer Hertz station. Have to say I didn't like the Toyota at all. Though it did ride nice and soft and comfy.

    The mazda 3 was clearly the best car of this bunch, but even that car seemed tinny, thin, and of economical construction compared to my A3.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Breyer's is alive and well. They were bought by Unilever in the '90's.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    AFAIK, Farmington, Mass. There was a plant in West Philly with a big neon sign with the Breyer's leaf logo.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    In the 5 years from 2005-2009, I had gross revenues of $850 Billion.
    In that 5 year period, I generated $239 Billion of tax revenue for the local thru fed gov's.
    In one year I lost $39 billion.
    In losing that $39 billion, $19 billion in tax revenue was generated from just the loss.
    I borrowed about 1/5 of the tax revenue I generated over that 5 year period, from the entity that I generated most of the tax revenue for.
    I paid back some but still owe $9.1 billion in loans. (Less than half the $19 billion in taxes generated from my losses in one bad year.
    Who am I?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Who am I?

    My ex-wife? :P
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2011
    Chrysler. (Inside Line)

    But I think you're looking for the It's Time to Play "WHO AM I"? discussion.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My current wife?
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Dave - you're probably in the same boat that the rest of us are in - the IRS or Treasury has given us exactly - let me calculate - oh yes, it comes out to $0.00 loan for my business or personal situation. I'd be thrilled to get 1/5 of the money I've paid or generated in taxes, as a loan from Uncle Sam!!

    In fact if we all equally got a loan for 1/5 of the taxes we paid and generated, and all our businesses we own or work for got that (that would be fair) ... then we could stop worrying about the bbt and deficits, and just declare "$ is worthless!". :P
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Please Please Please!!!!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    edited April 2011
    Or maybe you could tell us why during those 5 years when GM had revenue of $850 billion, how much did they pay out for wages, benefits, pensions, and bonuses? Was it $200 billion?

    Now if GM had saved some of their revenue, then 1 bad year would not be a problem. Why should we bailout any company that fails the basic operational criteria of retaining enough earnings in the good years, to see it through the historically, predictable periods of economic turmoil that occur. Just like most of our local and state governments that setup systems that used all the current resources, and made promises they can't afford. I hate this philosophy of - spend it now, and stick the people with the bill next year.

    If GM wasn't exceptionally, fundamentally mismanaged, why didn't every other U.S. manufacturing company need a bailout? Was GE bailed out? Boeing? IBM? Dupont? Johnson & Johnson? Proctor & Gamble? HP? Microsoft? Ford?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited April 2011
    Or maybe you could tell us why during those 5 years when GM had revenue of $850 billion

    Revenue doesn't mean a whole lot when from 2004 through 2008 GM had 72 billion in net losses. That's almost unbelievable considering how strong auto sales were through 2007.

    I wonder how GM has lost the treasury with investment loss carry over from all of the investors who lost their [non-permissible content removed] with GM stock and bonds.

    GE was sort of bailed out because I believe their finance arm (GE Capital) received TARP funds or some type of assistance.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Thanks for the details on 2004 - 08. You're "unbelievable" statement concerning the losses, is exactly why I assumed GM must have done okay, as things were booming nicely.

    Either way - long-term incompetence of spending too much, or the 1 bad year, they don't deserve to be in-business.

    Maybe we need to set some national criteria of when a business becomes too-big-to-fail. Any company that is too-big-to-fail should be declared Too-Big-To-Exist, and have to be broken-up into smaller companies.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited April 2011
    Maybe we need to set some national criteria of when a business becomes too-big-to-fail. Any company that is too-big-to-fail should be declared Too-Big-To-Exist, and have to be broken-up into smaller companies.

    While I'm a libertarian by philosophy, I agree that a key role of the US Government should be to protect the health of the economy. And when companies get too big, they should be broken up. The big banks are even bigger now. They instead should have been bailed and then broken into a bunch of pieces each. With that we would have had lots more banks and not be right back into vulnerable territory like we are currently. And I'd say the same about GM - should have been broken up if we had to bail them out. ANY company that is important to get a government bailout - BAIL AND BREAK UP. My new platform when I run for prez. :shades:
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Absolutely! My dad had a ton of Wachovia stock. When they failed the feds gave them to Wells Fargo making for an even bigger bank. Of course the stock holders lost pretty much everything in the process.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I moved my accounts from one of the bailed-out megabanks to a credit union. And I told them why, too. I felt good about that. Just doing my part to not support bailed-out companies. And I won't be buying GM, either.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    The government had an income of $2.15 Trillion last year and borrowed $1.6 Trillion. Is that 1/5? No, it is almost 1/2. No, wait a minute....it isn't even a loan. They never plan on paying back even a single penney of it. And who is the government? It is all of us. aka 'the rest of us'.

    And last I heard, Fannie and Freddie loaned out hundreds of billions to those of us who will not be paying it back because our houses didn't appreciate how we had hoped.

    If you make it to 62, you will get soc sec. which is part of the taxes you have paid in. And it won't be a loan. You can keep it all. And your medicare benefit after 65 is not a loan either.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Revenue doesn't mean a whole lot when from 2004 through 2008 GM had 72 billion in net losses. That's almost unbelievable considering how strong auto sales were through 2007.

    GM had $54 billion sitting in cash in 2006. In 2008 they lost $39 billion. So 1. They did have money put away. 2. They lost almost all of the $72 Billion in just a 2 year period. 3. They other companies would have got bailout money if it meant saving a lot of jobs. 4. GM took an extra hard hit because fuel more than doubled in price in a very short time. 5. The airlines were bailed out because they too took a hard hit from rising fuel prices. 6. GE and many other companies got bailout money. 7. GM is represented by 140 million vehicles out on the road. 8. Almost all of the $72 billion is losses were paid as excess wages and purchase costs for people and things. Those supplying people and entities paid taxes on that $72 billion. 9. Just those taxes alone are way more than the remaining GM loan balance. 10. Chrysler got a bailout and 11. Ford could of had a bailout if they wanted. and 12. Ford indirectly did get a bailout. Their suppliers were kept healthier and the interest rates they borrowed privately at have had downward pressure due to govermnent stimulus.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    #1: GM goes down in history as the biggest failure in automotive history. Can't be undone no matter how much data you throw at it.

    Regards,
    OW
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,419
    Will you buy from companies that have been aided by various federal governments, just not with your money?
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited April 2011
    If there's anything our souless treacherous corporate and financial elite have proven, it is that they have no clue about sustainability.


    Amen. Boeing can just fall off of the cliffs of Mukilteo and the leaders of that monstrosity can have fun fighting bare-handed with the octopii on the bottom of Puget Sound for all I care. A person like myself busted my tail for 20 years for that place and a pink slip is their rebuttal.

    Morons and crooks and thieves. Phoosh. There. I just blew exhaust from my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS in to all of their managers' (including lower, midlevel, upper-level and the glorified spunk-master, the CEO) faces. Down to the bottom of the Sound, you grivel-meisters.

    This country is in way more hurt than any of us thinks. And for even more fun and fodder there's this late-breaking news. We're doomed.

    Doomed! I think I'll move to Norway and pay 52% of my income to the Norwegian government so I can get free health care and get a free college education. Great idea, huh?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

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