The Ecoboost is certainly impressive, but all crewcab 4x4 1/2 tons have one shortcoming. That is payload capacity. Ex. a crew cab lariat 4x4 F150 EB which MT tested had a payload capacity of 1572lbs or so. My camper has over 1200lbs of tongue weight. That basically leaves 372 lbs for people gear and fuel. There is a lot of fudge factor and what if's when it comes to tow ratings. It depends on the the type of trailer your towing. Heavy tongue weights will reduce what can be towed in a hurry.
IIRC, to get a high payload capacity in a 1/2 ton, you need to go with a single or extended cab. If I really want to tow my camper anywhere (currently it's fine where it's at) I'll need a 3/4 ton truck.
And as far as incentives go, I never thought there would be a day where Toyota is actually offering better incentives than GM, but it's happening, right now
GM is still King of Incentives. In June they dropped one spot however...
As you might see (or not) The Big 3 are still BIG in moving metal WITH INCENTIVES!
Now we have to see how their proits are affected...and this going into potential higher labor costs....GO GM!
>is still on the factory exhaust system from 12 years ago....
No. Say it's not true!...
Actually, I think the problems started when the local city started putting down the brine mixture on the streets as a prophylactic method of snow and sleet control instead of using standard salt where it's added only as needed after the stuff starts to fall. The wet brine will coat everything at the hint of moisture on the road from precipitation.
>Accord was another story and to be fair to it I lived for four years on a barrier island while I had it so it breathed a ton of salt!
I remember my friend's Honda CVCC back in the 70s that would die at any splash from rain on the roads with the salt in them on the islands around Charleston where he lived. He'd have to leave it and come back the next day to pick it up! And it needed premium fuel!
My '97 and '02 Chevy Cavaliers went 129.6K and 112K, respectively, with nothing but routine maintenance. That's why I bought a new one 5 1/2 years after the '97.
My son's 2000 Cavalier went a bit over 200k with no major problems. It overheated and the head gasket went...wasn't worth fixing.
Those F-150 straight sixes were bulletproof. We had 3 and sold them at around 150k miles. I know the owner of one of them and still runs great at way over 200k.
As a vehicle letterer I see alot of old Ford and Chevy trucks from the early nineties and some from the eighties with 250k-350k miles still being used and abused by a variety of construction and landscape businesses. Some of the bodies have rust, and most of the older ones do but the frames remain solid, unlike the 10 year old toyotas.
I don't see too many 20 or 30 year old Toyota trucks on the road.
I've been noticing lately a lot of early '00 Chevy trucks with lots of rust in the wheel wells.
My 07 Expedition has paint bubbling bad on the tailgate (I won't get into all of the other issues. Yep, quality is job one. My [non-permissible content removed]. This SUV is almost as big of a POS as my '00 Suburban was. Typical D3, it gets a few miles and a few years on it and it begins to fall apart.
As for the Expedition, this paint bubbling issue is fairly common and it looks like Ford is doing nothing to fix it. If your out of warranty as I am, you're SOL. I'll either have it fixed, and say screw it and let it get worse.
Also, the black trim along the windows on the drivers side has basically been cooked by the sun. It looks horrible. Pretty sad considering it sits in a garage more than it sits out. The passenger side is just starting to fade too.
If I decide to have the tailgate repainted, I'll probably have the trim pieces replaced too.
I'm astounded Ford won't do anything about the bubbling. You'd think they'd lump that in with their 6 yr. 100K mile rust-through warranty. I bet my local dealer would fix something like that for me free (if it were GM).
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yet (well it's aluminum so I guess it hasn't corroded through yet).
Well I think that explains it. Aluminum is much harder to prime and paint than steel. I have seen a few aluminum bodied Plymouth Prowlers with bubbling paint being addressed at a neighboring Auto Body.
I also know that as of a few years ago Audi would only recommend a dozen or so Collision facilities around the country to do body work on their aluminum bodied cars.
Yes, I would agree with that as well. Unfortunately others would like to twist the facts into having us believe the same thing is the norm for a Toyota truck which is not the case.
I'm not a truck guy by any stretch, but I thought the early 2000's Chevy trucks had the huge grille and huge headlights.
The bottom-line is, not all domestic trucks rust out, and not all Toyota trucks' frames rust out. Generally, though--and I think an objective "step back" from this forum will back this up--the GM buffs on this board aren't the ones baiting, like going on a Toyota forum, and right off the top talk about how crappy a Toyota product is. As is usually the case, our memories of what's good and bad are usually exaggerated (as in when old timers in Cars and Parts tell of a new car rusting out in six months, etc.) and the truth is actually someplace in the middle, not the extremes.
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No doubt the majority didn't have any issues like that, but it is alarming how some do. No different than the rusting Toyotas to me. From what I recall some early-mid 90s Toyota trucks could get pretty rusty in the same areas as those GM photos. But on the other hand, my brother has an 83 Toyota pickup that has probably never spent a night in a garage nor been waxed. No rust other than surface scales mostly in the bed. My brother in law has an 03 Tacoma 4x4 4 door that is pristine with something like 130K on it. If anything, it might show how inconsistent some assembly quality can be even in this day and age.
I'm not a truck guy by any stretch, but I thought the early 2000's Chevy trucks had the huge grille and huge headlights.
The Silverado 1/2-ton was all-new for 1999, but I think the 3/4 and 1-ton stayed on the old platform for another year or so. For 1999-02, it had a fairly conservative, inoffensive front-end, but then in 2003 adopted that "angry appliance" look that the Avalanche was sporting.
I might also add that I don't know a soul who trades in three years anymore--even though I generally used to.
that explains why you could stand to still always buy American. If I was rating my domestic reliability experience and had only kept that Dodge for 3 years or 36,000 miles, it'd be a lousy, but not horrible 4 out of 10. It is in years 3 -6 that the rating is -10 from 1 to 10. USA cars were designed and built to fail immediately after the warranty expired.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
'81 Monte Carlo, stolen Nov. '82--35K miles '82 Monte Carlo, traded at 57K miles in June '85 '85 Celebrity Eurosport, traded at 60K miles in Sept. '88 '89 Beretta GT, traded at 74.9K miles in June '93 '90 Corsica 5-speed, traded at 108K miles in Sept. '96 '93 Caprice Classic, sold to an exporter at 93K miles, June '99 '97 Cavalier 5-speed, traded at 129.6K miles in April '02 '99 Venture van, turned in at end of lease at 33K miles in Jan '02 '02 Venture van, traded at 60K miles in July '05--"Employee Pricing for All" event '02 Cavalier 5-speed, traded at 112K miles in April '08 '05 Uplander traded at 94K in June '11
All were inexpensive to operate and I had pride of ownership even with the Cavaliers.
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The 2003 facelift never bothered me like it did for many others, but I guess that's because I own an Avalanche that looks just like the 2003+ Silverados and I'm used to it. The 2007+ Silverados still haven't grown on me. The front end just seems so wide and lacking something but I don't know what it is. If I was in the market I'd definitely go GMC as I think the Sierra looks much better.
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If an import is so great, why not keep it until the wheels fall off?
Because my chips will probably be cashed before the wheels fall off of any Honda. If I have it for life, then that doesn't leave much room for having a new car with that new car smell. Not all of us have room for a fleet of cars to choose from everyday (not to mention soaring auto insurance costs in CA) to insure them all.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I would bet many of those pick up trucks in the pictures were used to haul boats and back them into the water, most probably salt water at boat ramps. Most of the late and mid-aged Gm, Ford, and Dodge trucks I see have no perceptible rust. While there are numerous reports of frame rust on mid 2000 year Toyotas, I have a 2006 Silverado which I check regularly and it has NO rust.
I also personally know 2 Tacoma owners who have had their frames replaced recently. One was a 2001 and the other a 2002. The cost to Toyota was around $12,000 to $13,000 each. I have never heard of a domestic truck needing a frame replacement. The guy that plows our driveway every year has a 1986 Suburban with rusted panels but the frame is sound. I don't anticipate there will be too many 25 or 30 year old Toyota trucks around in the future.
I would bet many of those pick up trucks in the pictures were used to haul boats and back them into the water, most probably salt water at boat ramps. Most of the late and mid-aged Gm, Ford, and Dodge trucks I see have no perceptible rust.
I live in the middle of Illinois, and I see GMT-800's weekly that look like those pics. I'm seeing the same era Fords rusting too. Since I go boating every weekend and live in the middle of farm country, I see tons of trucks.
Honestly, whether it's reported or not doesn't mean anything to me. Seeing is believing. I've been noticing it quite a bit lately.
My '00 Suburban had premature rust on the front bumper and it was recalled for corrosion on the ABS sensors. My FIl has a late 90's Tahoe that he has been fighting rust on the lower part of the doors. But IMO, anything 10 years old is probably going to be fair game to rust.
and search "rust" in complaints the first complaint for a Chevy truck is page 8 of the search. Most of them are for Toyota, with quite a few for Hyundai, Nissan, Honda and a smattering of Fords. I conclude that the rust problem for the GM pickups are no worse and might be and probably is better than the competition. This is the site to see complaints made to the NHTSA for various makes and models.
Our Corsica was a 4-cyl., so it wasn't that exciting. A good car though. Nice size, and the '90 was before they made the taillights look like louvers--I never liked that.
My wife went from driving her '78 Chevette 4-door 4-speed (that she had before we married), to driving that Corsica, which we bought new (our dealer got it from a dealer in WV, four hours away). She was as excited as a kid at Christmastime...that old Chevette smelled like gas inside...ick.
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No offense, but with trading in around 60K so often, the cars (of ANY make) are NOT inexpensive. You are repeatedly eating depreciation. Lots of money saved by keeping cars 8 years, regardless of repair costs.
No offense intended and I am happy for you that you had "good" experiences with your fleet but most of those seem to have left you quite young?
50k, 60k even 90k relatively trouble free should be expected with any makes (even though for some reason I know alot of former GM owners who had the most problems which is why there are... um... "former"... )
But I digress, my point is those mileages are pretty low...
I'm sure many of you read that a new Chevy Cruze Diesel is coming! Those babies will sell like hot cakes! :shades: I will be very tempted to sell my Grand Prix and grab me a new diesel Cruze! :shades: I hope MY company offers the 2.0L Twin Turbo Diesel that went into the Buick Insignia that had 190 hp and 300+ lbs tq.... Did you catch that "MY" part! Completed day #2 tonight and love it! I'm like a rock star there because like everyone knew or knows a relative of mine! Had higher ups coming up to just shake my hand, lol..... I'm currently doing final process and quality inspection on GM V8 Roller Lifter!
When a bachelor ('80's), I traded because I wanted to, not because the cars were falling apart. In later years, sometimes I traded because I needed a bigger car (e.g., our Beretta GT was traded on a Caprice Classic).
Point is, I've never had a drop of the "they fall apart as soon as the warranty's done" we hear so much on this board.
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Point is, I've never had a drop of the "they fall apart as soon as the warranty's done" we hear so much on this board.
No, some start to "fall apart" BEFORE the warranty is over and continue right on through the end of the warranty period. It takes invocation of the Lemon Law for the dealer to hook up with "GM Command Canter" to discover a MAP sensor failure in 2005?
Point is, I've never had a drop of the "they fall apart as soon as the warranty's done" we hear so much on this board.
You're right, I'm sure alot of them don't. My fathers 04 Grand Prix was an example of longevity, put either 220 or 240k on it (he's in sales) and had a few issues (cracked manifold about a month after he bought it being one of them), but I'm sorry that was far from a "nice car". Frankly it was a cramped, unfomfortable, crude tank with horrible seats and an interior that would give a Kia of the same model year a severe ego boost.
Tried and true 3 decade old lazy, 3800 that sounded like it had dirt in it at anything over 4 grand, with a decades old 4 speed tranny and the infamous popcorn popper exhaust note and jumpy throttle response.
That seems like an odd angle for a pickup truck to be at when the frame breaks. I've seen old pickups, mainly 80's and older Ford F-150's for some reason, that are starting to fail, but they always sag down at the spot between the back of the cab and the front of the bed, rather than rising up.
That Tacoma looks like it had been jacked up in the center, raised with a forklift, or something, and then broke, and was then placed back down. But it looks like it's now defying gravity. I'd think that, once placed back on the ground, it would collapse at the center, rather than remain in that position. Unless there's something really, really heavy in the back of the bed lodged up against the tailgate, which is keeping it in that position?
Most of the domestic trucks I see are basic work vehicles used by contractors and tradesmen. They're all banged-up, filthy, and often tagged with graffiti, but no serious rust.
You're right, I'm sure alot of them don't. My fathers 04 Grand Prix was an example of longevity, put either 220 or 240k on it (he's in sales) and had a few issues (cracked manifold about a month after he bought it being one of them), but I'm sorry that was far from a "nice car". Frankly it was a cramped, unfomfortable, crude tank with horrible seats and an interior that would give a Kia of the same model year a severe ego boost.
Tried and true 3 decade old lazy, 3800 that sounded like it had dirt in it at anything over 4 grand, with a decades old 4 speed tranny and the infamous popcorn popper exhaust note and jumpy throttle response.
But what a reliable piece of crap that was
That sounds about right, but that was the old GM;)
I will say I do like the Cruze. A diesel would be awesome.
Just out of curiosity, what made you trade the '82 Monte Carlo for the '85 Celebrity? Personally, I'd rather have the Monte Carlo, but I'm also looking at it through modern eyes. That Monte just had the 267 V-8, right? It was probably a bit of a dog, and not the most fuel efficient in the world, so a 1985 Celebrity Eurosport might have looked pretty tempting, at the time. Definitely faster, and probably more fuel efficient as well.
Comments
End of discussion.
The Ecoboost is certainly impressive, but all crewcab 4x4 1/2 tons have one shortcoming. That is payload capacity. Ex. a crew cab lariat 4x4 F150 EB which MT tested had a payload capacity of 1572lbs or so. My camper has over 1200lbs of tongue weight. That basically leaves 372 lbs for people gear and fuel. There is a lot of fudge factor and what if's when it comes to tow ratings. It depends on the the type of trailer your towing. Heavy tongue weights will reduce what can be towed in a hurry.
IIRC, to get a high payload capacity in a 1/2 ton, you need to go with a single or extended cab. If I really want to tow my camper anywhere (currently it's fine where it's at) I'll need a 3/4 ton truck.
GM is still King of Incentives. In June they dropped one spot however...
As you might see (or not) The Big 3 are still BIG in moving metal WITH INCENTIVES!
Now we have to see how their proits are affected...and this going into potential higher labor costs....GO GM!
Regards,
OW
My old 80 Accord was another story and to be fair to it I lived for four years on a barrier island while I had it so it breathed a ton of salt!
No. Say it's not true!...
Actually, I think the problems started when the local city started putting down the brine mixture on the streets as a prophylactic method of snow and sleet control instead of using standard salt where it's added only as needed after the stuff starts to fall. The wet brine will coat everything at the hint of moisture on the road from precipitation.
>Accord was another story and to be fair to it I lived for four years on a barrier island while I had it so it breathed a ton of salt!
I remember my friend's Honda CVCC back in the 70s that would die at any splash from rain on the roads with the salt in them on the islands around Charleston where he lived. He'd have to leave it and come back the next day to pick it up! And it needed premium fuel!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yeah. As long as Toyota replaces the rusty frame every 8 years or so.
My son's 2000 Cavalier went a bit over 200k with no major problems.
It overheated and the head gasket went...wasn't worth fixing.
As a vehicle letterer I see alot of old Ford and Chevy trucks from the early nineties and some from the eighties with 250k-350k miles still being used and abused by a variety of construction and landscape businesses. Some of the bodies have rust, and most of the older ones do but the frames remain solid, unlike the 10 year old toyotas.
I don't see too many 20 or 30 year old Toyota trucks on the road.
I've been noticing lately a lot of early '00 Chevy trucks with lots of rust in the wheel wells.
My 07 Expedition has paint bubbling bad on the tailgate (I won't get into all of the other issues. Yep, quality is job one. My [non-permissible content removed]. This SUV is almost as big of a POS as my '00 Suburban was. Typical D3, it gets a few miles and a few years on it and it begins to fall apart.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/toyota%20truck%20frame%20broken%20in%20two/Si- rMaverick00/toyota1.jpg
I did pull up behind an Expedition the other day and it had bubbling on the tailgate too.
I thought that was a parallel parking feature;)
As for the Expedition, this paint bubbling issue is fairly common and it looks like Ford is doing nothing to fix it. If your out of warranty as I am, you're SOL. I'll either have it fixed, and say screw it and let it get worse.
Also, the black trim along the windows on the drivers side has basically been cooked by the sun. It looks horrible. Pretty sad considering it sits in a garage more than it sits out. The passenger side is just starting to fade too.
If I decide to have the tailgate repainted, I'll probably have the trim pieces replaced too.
The answer I've gotten so far is it hasn't rusted through yet (well it's aluminum so I guess it hasn't corroded through yet).
I need to take it in for my power steering issue for one last fight. I'm not holding my breath.
Well I think that explains it. Aluminum is much harder to prime and paint than steel. I have seen a few aluminum bodied Plymouth Prowlers with bubbling paint being addressed at a neighboring Auto Body.
I also know that as of a few years ago Audi would only recommend a dozen or so Collision facilities around the country to do body work on their aluminum bodied cars.
Point 2: Those trucks are all '90's models I believe.
Point 2: Those trucks are all '90's models I believe.
Most of those chevy trucks are definitely '00+ era GMT-800s. I see that type of rust on them all of the time.
I also don't know where you come off thinking that Government Motors trucks are immune to the same issue.
eDMUNDS: Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra Undercarriage Rust
Every 8 years huh?
Again, 8 years huh?
The bottom-line is, not all domestic trucks rust out, and not all Toyota trucks' frames rust out. Generally, though--and I think an objective "step back" from this forum will back this up--the GM buffs on this board aren't the ones baiting, like going on a Toyota forum, and right off the top talk about how crappy a Toyota product is. As is usually the case, our memories of what's good and bad are usually exaggerated (as in when old timers in Cars and Parts tell of a new car rusting out in six months, etc.) and the truth is actually someplace in the middle, not the extremes.
No doubt the majority didn't have any issues like that, but it is alarming how some do. No different than the rusting Toyotas to me. From what I recall some early-mid 90s Toyota trucks could get pretty rusty in the same areas as those GM photos. But on the other hand, my brother has an 83 Toyota pickup that has probably never spent a night in a garage nor been waxed. No rust other than surface scales mostly in the bed. My brother in law has an 03 Tacoma 4x4 4 door that is pristine with something like 130K on it. If anything, it might show how inconsistent some assembly quality can be even in this day and age.
The Silverado 1/2-ton was all-new for 1999, but I think the 3/4 and 1-ton stayed on the old platform for another year or so. For 1999-02, it had a fairly conservative, inoffensive front-end, but then in 2003 adopted that "angry appliance" look that the Avalanche was sporting.
that explains why you could stand to still always buy American. If I was rating my domestic reliability experience and had only kept that Dodge for 3 years or 36,000 miles, it'd be a lousy, but not horrible 4 out of 10. It is in years 3 -6 that the rating is -10 from 1 to 10. USA cars were designed and built to fail immediately after the warranty expired.
Maybe the battery was made in the USA?
'82 Monte Carlo, traded at 57K miles in June '85
'85 Celebrity Eurosport, traded at 60K miles in Sept. '88
'89 Beretta GT, traded at 74.9K miles in June '93
'90 Corsica 5-speed, traded at 108K miles in Sept. '96
'93 Caprice Classic, sold to an exporter at 93K miles, June '99
'97 Cavalier 5-speed, traded at 129.6K miles in April '02
'99 Venture van, turned in at end of lease at 33K miles in Jan '02
'02 Venture van, traded at 60K miles in July '05--"Employee Pricing for All" event
'02 Cavalier 5-speed, traded at 112K miles in April '08
'05 Uplander traded at 94K in June '11
All were inexpensive to operate and I had pride of ownership even with the Cavaliers.
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Because my chips will probably be cashed before the wheels fall off of any Honda. If I have it for life, then that doesn't leave much room for having a new car with that new car smell. Not all of us have room for a fleet of cars to choose from everyday (not to mention soaring auto insurance costs in CA) to insure them all.
I also personally know 2 Tacoma owners who have had their frames replaced recently. One was a 2001 and the other a 2002. The cost to Toyota was around $12,000 to $13,000 each. I have never heard of a domestic truck needing a frame replacement. The guy that plows our driveway every year has a 1986 Suburban with rusted panels but the frame is sound. I don't anticipate there will be too many 25 or 30 year old Toyota trucks around in the future.
I live in the middle of Illinois, and I see GMT-800's weekly that look like those pics. I'm seeing the same era Fords rusting too. Since I go boating every weekend and live in the middle of farm country, I see tons of trucks.
My '00 Suburban had premature rust on the front bumper and it was recalled for corrosion on the ABS sensors. My FIl has a late 90's Tahoe that he has been fighting rust on the lower part of the doors. But IMO, anything 10 years old is probably going to be fair game to rust.
http://www.arfc.org/
and search "rust" in complaints the first complaint for a Chevy truck is page 8 of the search. Most of them are for Toyota, with quite a few for Hyundai, Nissan, Honda and a smattering of Fords. I conclude that the rust problem for the GM pickups are no worse and might be and probably is better than the competition. This is the site to see complaints made to the NHTSA for various makes and models.
Wow. You are the first person I've ever heard of who owned a Corsica 5-speed!''
Well done!
My wife went from driving her '78 Chevette 4-door 4-speed (that she had before we married), to driving that Corsica, which we bought new (our dealer got it from a dealer in WV, four hours away). She was as excited as a kid at Christmastime...that old Chevette smelled like gas inside...ick.
50k, 60k even 90k relatively trouble free should be expected with any makes (even though for some reason I know alot of former GM owners who had the most problems which is why there are... um... "former"...
But I digress, my point is those mileages are pretty low...
You are certainly loyal to them...
-Rocky
P.S. The American Automakers http://youtu.be/iu3veyT1NAA :shades:
Point is, I've never had a drop of the "they fall apart as soon as the warranty's done" we hear so much on this board.
No, some start to "fall apart" BEFORE the warranty is over and continue right on through the end of the warranty period. It takes invocation of the Lemon Law for the dealer to hook up with "GM Command Canter" to discover a MAP sensor failure in 2005?
Regards,
OW
You're right, I'm sure alot of them don't. My fathers 04 Grand Prix was an example of longevity, put either 220 or 240k on it (he's in sales) and had a few issues (cracked manifold about a month after he bought it being one of them), but I'm sorry that was far from a "nice car". Frankly it was a cramped, unfomfortable, crude tank with horrible seats and an interior that would give a Kia of the same model year a severe ego boost.
Tried and true 3 decade old lazy, 3800 that sounded like it had dirt in it at anything over 4 grand, with a decades old 4 speed tranny and the infamous popcorn popper exhaust note and jumpy throttle response.
But what a reliable piece of crap that was...
That Tacoma looks like it had been jacked up in the center, raised with a forklift, or something, and then broke, and was then placed back down. But it looks like it's now defying gravity. I'd think that, once placed back on the ground, it would collapse at the center, rather than remain in that position. Unless there's something really, really heavy in the back of the bed lodged up against the tailgate, which is keeping it in that position?
Tried and true 3 decade old lazy, 3800 that sounded like it had dirt in it at anything over 4 grand, with a decades old 4 speed tranny and the infamous popcorn popper exhaust note and jumpy throttle response.
But what a reliable piece of crap that was
That sounds about right, but that was the old GM;)
I will say I do like the Cruze. A diesel would be awesome.