I like it, especially in that nice dark blue, but my favorite of these dreambarges is still a '76 Electra 4-door hardtop! Strangely, the Fleetwood/Talisman isn't that much longer overall. While it's on a 133" wheelbase, it's "only" 234" long. The Electra's only on a 127" wb, but is only fractionally shorter, at 233.2". The Fleetwood LOOKS a lot longer, though.
My pop had a '72 Electra. He cried the day he sold it.
I remember you mentioning that car before. It was a coupe, right? What color was it?
I think the Electra is my favorite of those behemoth 70's cars. I always thought it split a tasteful difference between being too pimpy and too conservative. And the earlier, '71-73 models, were downright sporty for a car that size.
Chevy has now sold 1,000,000 Cruzes worldwide. There's one in my neighborhood now.
At GM site $4500 is taken off of a $32000 Silverado instantly with incentives. Before I can comment on the goodness or badness of that, I'd need to see what GM's profits are and whether or not they are laying people off. I got $4500 rebate off on my Silverado and I was happy about it as a buyer. Can I even get $1 off on a Cruze?
By the time I wear out a set of tires on my V6 Chevy, I will sink $11,200 into the gas tank. Probably 10 times the depreciation over the 60000 miles
General Motors Co posted a lower third-quarter profit on losses in Europe and offered a disappointing outlook that raised doubts about the speed of its turnaround two years after emerging from bankruptcy.
This year, GM is poised to retake the mantle as No. 1 automaker that it fumbled away to Toyota in 2008 as the Detroit giant careened toward bankruptcy.
With 6.79 million sales through September of this year, GM leads Toyota by 1 million vehicles. Germany's Volkswagen AG is the surprising second with 6.17 million vehicles sold this year.
"It's a rather remarkable recovery given the shape GM was in two years ago," said Shih, who has written on restoring American competitiveness. "GM lost a generation of customers. To win some back is an achievement."
Still, GM may be able to keep the sales crown even after Toyota recovers from the effects of the earthquake and floods because Toyota buyers have had reasons to look around, Keller said.
There are simply too many good brands selling quality cars for any player to dominate, Keller said. Besides the three giants, Renault SA, Nissan Motor Co., Ford Motor Co., Hyundai Motor Co. and Kia Motors Corp. all are selling competitive cars and have the financial strength to invest in technology, new models and marketing.
"Wagoner gets some credit for this," Anwyl said. "He invested in China more than 10 years ago. A lot of the product that is selling in the U.S. goes back four to six years."
"GM is in a better position in China than Toyota. That could do it for them," Hall said. "To keep the lead in the long term, GM will have to match VW's growth here and push more sales in China."
>>> General Motors Co posted a lower third-quarter profit on losses in Europe and offered a disappointing outlook that raised doubts about the speed of its turnaround two years after emerging from bankruptcy.
Typical short-sighted financial-market MBA-think. Short-term profits trump all. Of course, that's what got them into bankruptcy in the first place.
It's all about the CAR, not what the bean counters want.
Agreed...it's all about the car. Let's see if the short-sighted management-think of the past has been totally eliminated.
At least the CEO and CFO know there are many miles left before the sleep.
“GM continues to execute the plan we outlined for investors in 2010,” Ammann said in a statement. “That includes investing in our products, further strengthening our balance sheet, generating cash and profits each quarter, and maintaining our low break-even level. The next level of performance will come as we systematically eliminate complexity and cost throughout the organization.”
I like the new XTS. Caddy will no doubt benefit from this car.
"GM's Chief Financial Officer Dan Ammann said on Wednesday no options were being ruled out in restructuring its European operations, catching Opel's combative labor leader Klaus Franz by surprise.
The biggest drag on GM's third-quarter results came from Europe, where the automaker posted a $300 million loss.
GM now expects a full-year loss in Europe, where a crippling sovereign debt crisis has sparked recession fears and hit demand for cars."
You can either do a JV and at least get some profits while your material is copied and stolen, or it will just be stolen anyway. Might as well make something while you can.
Guess so...dangerous waters to tread. And all sales are via joint ventures, so I wonder, seriously, is GM counting those sales, while the JV also counts those sales? Or does GM give itself 50% credit (or less, by rule, IIRC)?
The JV in China idea is too profitable to ignore, nobody thinks about consequences nor have they for eons. Take advantage of their bizarre monied class while you can.
I appreciate your kind remarks, but why do I feel like my good feelings about it will be offset by a bunch of 'rain on my parade'-ers and 'Debbie Downers' over there?
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Exactly. I guess that's why we need secret R&D groups, to move forward and make the stolen/bought IP look obsolete. And of course, not allow them access to first world markets.
"The Volt caught fire while parked at a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration testing center in Wisconsin, three weeks after a side-impact crash test May 12, said an agency official.
As manufacturers continue to develop vehicles of any kind -- electric, gasoline, or diesel -- it is critical that they take the necessary steps to ensure the safety of drivers and first responders both during and after a crash,” NHTSA said in an e-mailed statement today."
Yes. He wants to raise the gas tax for some other reason than forcing customers to lay off SUV's/PU trucks and getting into Hybrids....but then where can GM make profits to cover the greedy UAdubya's??
They made 1.7 billion in a qtr when Brazil and Europe lost money for them. They sell more than anybody else.
I hope this has not put the inventory alarmists out to pasture for a few weeks. You know, the folks who think a good selection at the local dealer is a guise by GM to hide poor sales.
That was a great video. I remember the "65 well. A buddy of mine had one...a two door hardtop but not an SS. My favorite car from my younger days was a '61 Impala 2 door Bubble Top. It was so smooth and great looking compared to anything I had before. I paid $495 for it, but it needed tires (another $100). It was a 6 cyl. with a 3-speed on the floor. I absolutely loved that car and to this day go on E-bay to look for them for the heck of it.
I have mixed feelings about the '65. All of GM's full-size cars looked very advanced when introduced for '65 compared to the previous year's models, but I thought the Chevy came off worst in the group. It looked smaller and delicate, somehow, and always seemed to have a droopy rear end. I seem to remember reading that build quality was a real problem, especially with the inset hood, and that front-end damage could be very expensive because of the way that was designed. Didn't they also have a bunch of other problems with steering wheels or columns, engine mounts, and frames?
They did have a huge recall in 1971 for motor mounts, starting with the '65 model year. I'm not aware of the other issues you mentioned. The frame IMO was an improvement over the "X" frame of the '58-'64, which left a lot of open areas underneath the sides of the body of the cars.
While the Chevy was saddled with a two-speed automatic at that point, I actually think the interior of the Impala bettered the interiors of the Pontiac Catalina and base versions of the Buick LeSabre and Olds Dynamic 88. The Impala had no black crinkle vinyl on the dash like Pontiacs and Olds, and the seat and door trim bested the lower-priced full-size lines of Buick, Olds, and Pontiac IMHO.
I like the '66 Impala, but IMO putting a molding smack down the middle of the side, and losing the 'bullet' taillights, was a step back, not forward.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
No, not only is their inventory high, so are incentives. You do see profits have fallen, right??
The U.S. still owns almost a third of GM. The government would have to sell its stake at an average of $53 a share to break even. GM tumbled 11 percent, the most since its initial public offering, to $22.31 at the close in New York. The shares have fallen 32 percent since the IPO.
GM hasn’t solved all of its problems. In the U.S., the company spent $3,070 per vehicle on incentives last month, second only to Chrysler Group LLC among mainstream automakers, according to market-research firm Autodata Corp. in Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey.
I have to say at least the new management are a lot more restrained than the fans on these boards. That is the best sign they sound the alarms that are needed to make the correct decisions for the future.
Been there done that. When others place their biases I love to point out that almost all have/had their weaknesses. I thought it was a deep pun. I tried to decide whether to use corpsmen in the statement to point out the misuse of the word , but I thought everyone would catch on.
My Uncle Charlie had a beige or cream-colored 1965 Chevrolet Impala four-door hardtop. There are pictures of him and my aunt on their wedding day in 1969 with the car in the background.
There is also a picture of my Mom coming out of my Grandpop's brand new black 1964 Chevrolet Biscayne sedan on her wedding day.
This deserves to be quoted again, given the recent Volt fires:
"Toyota immediately labeled Volt a clever but meaningless PR exercise, using a battery chemistry, lithium-ion, which was dangerous, unreliable, and far from ready for automotive use. How much sounder, they trumpeted, was their own homely little Prius using (now eclipsed) nickel metal hydride batteries in their "tried and true, patented, toyota Synergy Drive." system. Soon after, toyota invited the world's media to a technical seminar in Japan, where their senior technical officer took great pains to point out the impossibility of litium-ion chemistry for the mobile sector."
In hindsight, maybe Lutz should have kept his mouth shut?
If the stock is worth less than the IPO, it could be that the IPO was overvalued. Or we could be in unusual economic times.
Are we really going to assess the value of GM stock during the great recession? A time when the entire United States has just lost 5.7% of the value of the average home nationwide over the last 12 months?
Incentives? I recently mentioned that the $4500 they currently offer on an ext cab 4X4 Silverado is the same as a decade ago. Forget the incentives that have always been there and always will be there and see the facts. $1.7 Billion profits in the 3rd quarter. Outselling No. 2 by 570,000 units YTD.
Dribs and drabs...Give the whole list of manufacturers incentives. Lets compare them.
Satisfied?? GM will CONTINUE to lead incentives or loose market share if they do not. The mark of a true world-class brand is not through incentives....it's the car!
So they gave their customers a huge discount, made a healthy profit, supported middle class jobs, helped drive our economy, increased their market share, and also managed to get advice on how to do even better from you. Is your idea to reduce GM incentives, and is it driven by a desire to see them increase profits? Since the gov owns 2/3 of GM, did the gov get most of that 1.7 billion profit?
The EU and South American economies are faltering though. And it looks like the Chinese may not be far behind. Even if China keeps growing the EU mess spooked investors pretty good.
Is your idea to reduce GM incentives, and is it driven by a desire to see them increase profits?
Yes. Less incentives mean more profits. Price the product right. Overpriced, fictitious window stickers and then $5,000 discounts is what got them in trouble in the first place. Also, increased inventory is a concern. Another area GM leads at the moment. That's what causes the viscous circle in the first place.
Cruze is a great example of a car that is competitive in the low margin area but because it is a good car and no incentives, the profit is not given away. I'll bet the residual value stays high for the Cruze just for those two points...hasn't been that way for GM cars for a few decades before the historical failure.
Looks like Ackerson wants incentives reduced, so they are improving from a management standpoint afaic.
So, make a great product and price it right. Problem is, everyone is waiting for the incentives since we are programed that way from the GM mentality up until now. A lot like miles points for air travel....biggest mistake of all time in the transportation industry.
Since the gov owns 2/3 of GM, did the gov get most of that 1.7 billion profit?
No, the Government will not break even on their investment for quite a long time. But here is where the profits go....
GM expects the fourth quarter to look a lot like the fourth quarter of last year, when profits were down because of increased costs related to product development and new-vehicle launches. Ammann explained on Wednesday that GM expects to see roughly two-thirds of its full-year profits in the second and third quarters, with the remainder split more toward the first quarter. Put another way, the fourth quarter will be weak relative to other quarters, because of a number of seasonal factors, but that's normal and expected.
Ammann also noted that the company's estimate of its pension liability had fallen to $8.7 billion from $18 billion a year ago. Although he declined to give specifics, saying that more details would be forthcoming next quarter, he did say that the "derisking" of the company's pension liability was going well and that no major cash contributions were expected in the near term. That's reassuring news on a front that had worried some investors, though more details will be helpful.
Long story short, GM's not doing badly, but it has opportunities to improve that are within its control, as well as macro challenges that need to be faced. Continued strength in North America and China should give GM managers the time and resources needed to make progress elsewhere, but the next few quarters will be interesting to watch.
Cruze is a great example of a car that is competitive in the low margin area but because it is a good car and no incentives, the profit is not given away.
We'll see for how long. Sales have dropped off a bit and GM is going to idle the Lordstown plant for a week to control inventory of the Cruze.
But the bigger question that can't be answered is where thoses incentives actually are.
If $5000 is the incentive on a $40-60,000 truck or SUV, that's not bad, as there is a $7-10,000 margin on them anyhow. GM, F, and Chry. will always "look" worse given the sheer percentage of large trucks and SUV's they sell.
Now, if you can show me GM is spending 50% more in incentives on the Sonic/Cruze as opposed to the Yaris/Corolla, that's different.
Comments
My pop had a '72 Electra. He cried the day he sold it.
I remember you mentioning that car before. It was a coupe, right? What color was it?
I think the Electra is my favorite of those behemoth 70's cars. I always thought it split a tasteful difference between being too pimpy and too conservative. And the earlier, '71-73 models, were downright sporty for a car that size.
At first thought I'd think the Volt is a titch bigger inside and out than the 2012 Ford Focus electric.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
At GM site $4500 is taken off of a $32000 Silverado instantly with incentives. Before I can comment on the goodness or badness of that, I'd need to see what GM's profits are and whether or not they are laying people off. I got $4500 rebate off on my Silverado and I was happy about it as a buyer. Can I even get $1 off on a Cruze?
By the time I wear out a set of tires on my V6 Chevy, I will sink $11,200 into the gas tank. Probably 10 times the depreciation over the 60000 miles
Yes, coupe, light green.
I never understood why, with 3 kids, he got a 2 door, plus it was big enough to wear a Boeing badge.
My favorite feature was - no B-pillar. Open both windows and you had a great view.
I think so, this place is selling them for about $500 under invoice:
http://fitzmall.com/
Still doesn't mean it's not doing well...transactions prices are well above what the Cobalt used to bring in.
General Motors Co posted a lower third-quarter profit on losses in Europe and offered a disappointing outlook that raised doubts about the speed of its turnaround two years after emerging from bankruptcy.
In fact, I would argue failure is inevitable, whether that be GM or the USA first, who knows.
Let's look at the bigger picture. GM made 1.7 *BILLION* in profit this quarter. It's the seventh consecutive quarter where they have had a profit.
Whining about how it was a bit lower than expected is terribly short-sighted.
With 6.79 million sales through September of this year, GM leads Toyota by 1 million vehicles. Germany's Volkswagen AG is the surprising second with 6.17 million vehicles sold this year.
"It's a rather remarkable recovery given the shape GM was in two years ago," said Shih, who has written on restoring American competitiveness. "GM lost a generation of customers. To win some back is an achievement."
Still, GM may be able to keep the sales crown even after Toyota recovers from the effects of the earthquake and floods because Toyota buyers have had reasons to look around, Keller said.
There are simply too many good brands selling quality cars for any player to dominate, Keller said. Besides the three giants, Renault SA, Nissan Motor Co., Ford Motor Co., Hyundai Motor Co. and Kia Motors Corp. all are selling competitive cars and have the financial strength to invest in technology, new models and marketing.
"Wagoner gets some credit for this," Anwyl said. "He invested in China more than 10 years ago. A lot of the product that is selling in the U.S. goes back four to six years."
"GM is in a better position in China than Toyota. That could do it for them," Hall said. "To keep the lead in the long term, GM will have to match VW's growth here and push more sales in China."
Source
Typical short-sighted financial-market MBA-think. Short-term profits trump all. Of course, that's what got them into bankruptcy in the first place.
It's all about the CAR, not what the bean counters want.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Just back from Occupy Wall Street? Sheesh.
At least the CEO and CFO know there are many miles left before the sleep.
“GM continues to execute the plan we outlined for investors in 2010,” Ammann said in a statement. “That includes investing in our products, further strengthening our balance sheet, generating cash and profits each quarter, and maintaining our low break-even level. The next level of performance will come as we systematically eliminate complexity and cost throughout the organization.”
I like the new XTS. Caddy will no doubt benefit from this car.
Regards,
OW
Even now GM is fighting Saab to keep the 9-4x' shared parts with the Caddy SRX away from its own JV partners' competitors.
Good luck with that.
The biggest drag on GM's third-quarter results came from Europe, where the automaker posted a $300 million loss.
GM now expects a full-year loss in Europe, where a crippling sovereign debt crisis has sparked recession fears and hit demand for cars."
GM's restructuring pledge raises alarm in Europe (autonews.com)
The JV in China idea is too profitable to ignore, nobody thinks about consequences nor have they for eons. Take advantage of their bizarre monied class while you can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz-nO6WvOYw
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ee92e94/4785#MSG4785
His reaction is so authentic.
As manufacturers continue to develop vehicles of any kind -- electric, gasoline, or diesel -- it is critical that they take the necessary steps to ensure the safety of drivers and first responders both during and after a crash,” NHTSA said in an e-mailed statement today."
GM Volt Fire Said to Prompt U.S. Probe of Lithium Batteries (Businessweek)
Oh yeah, it was me. :shades:
I'd love to hear what Lutz has to say about it now.
Doesn't Lutz think hybrids are stupid?
Yes. He wants to raise the gas tax for some other reason than forcing customers to lay off SUV's/PU trucks and getting into Hybrids....but then where can GM make profits to cover the greedy UAdubya's??
Regards,
OW
I hope this has not put the inventory alarmists out to pasture for a few weeks. You know, the folks who think a good selection at the local dealer is a guise by GM to hide poor sales.
Somehow I don't think George W. would approve of that term. :shades:
He was using the nucular option! :P
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
While the Chevy was saddled with a two-speed automatic at that point, I actually think the interior of the Impala bettered the interiors of the Pontiac Catalina and base versions of the Buick LeSabre and Olds Dynamic 88. The Impala had no black crinkle vinyl on the dash like Pontiacs and Olds, and the seat and door trim bested the lower-priced full-size lines of Buick, Olds, and Pontiac IMHO.
I like the '66 Impala, but IMO putting a molding smack down the middle of the side, and losing the 'bullet' taillights, was a step back, not forward.
That nucular option applies in all 57 states, too. It leaves behind lots of corpsemen for the medical people.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The U.S. still owns almost a third of GM. The government would have to sell its stake at an average of $53 a share to break even. GM tumbled 11 percent, the most since its initial public offering, to $22.31 at the close in New York. The shares have fallen 32 percent since the IPO.
GM hasn’t solved all of its problems. In the U.S., the company spent $3,070 per vehicle on incentives last month, second only to Chrysler Group LLC among mainstream automakers, according to market-research firm Autodata Corp. in Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey.
I have to say at least the new management are a lot more restrained than the fans on these boards. That is the best sign they sound the alarms that are needed to make the correct decisions for the future.
Regards,
OW
That nucular option applies in all 57 states, too. It leaves behind lots of corpsemen for the medical people.
This sort of thing normally drives me crazy and into the "take it to the politics thread" mode," but that was funny!
Been there done that. When others place their biases I love to point out that almost all have/had their weaknesses. I thought it was a deep pun. I tried to decide whether to use corpsmen in the statement to point out the misuse of the word , but I thought everyone would catch on.
Back to GM. Thanks.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Carry on.....
There is also a picture of my Mom coming out of my Grandpop's brand new black 1964 Chevrolet Biscayne sedan on her wedding day.
"Toyota immediately labeled Volt a clever but meaningless PR exercise, using a battery chemistry, lithium-ion, which was dangerous, unreliable, and far from ready for automotive use. How much sounder, they trumpeted, was their own homely little Prius using (now eclipsed) nickel metal hydride batteries in their "tried and true, patented, toyota Synergy Drive." system. Soon after, toyota invited the world's media to a technical seminar in Japan, where their senior technical officer took great pains to point out the impossibility of litium-ion chemistry for the mobile sector."
In hindsight, maybe Lutz should have kept his mouth shut?
Are we really going to assess the value of GM stock during the great recession? A time when the entire United States has just lost 5.7% of the value of the average home nationwide over the last 12 months?
Incentives? I recently mentioned that the $4500 they currently offer on an ext cab 4X4 Silverado is the same as a decade ago. Forget the incentives that have always been there and always will be there and see the facts. $1.7 Billion profits in the 3rd quarter. Outselling No. 2 by 570,000 units YTD.
Dribs and drabs...Give the whole list of manufacturers incentives. Lets compare them.
OK! Click on the link and download the Excel file. Then discover GM is #1.
TCI by Edmunds
Satisfied?? GM will CONTINUE to lead incentives or loose market share if they do not. The mark of a true world-class brand is not through incentives....it's the car!
Regards,
OW
= the company was overvalued.
Are we really going to assess the value of GM stock during the great recession?
Well, the economy and car sales are BETTER than at the IPO. What does that say about GM?
Yes. Less incentives mean more profits. Price the product right. Overpriced, fictitious window stickers and then $5,000 discounts is what got them in trouble in the first place. Also, increased inventory is a concern. Another area GM leads at the moment. That's what causes the viscous circle in the first place.
Cruze is a great example of a car that is competitive in the low margin area but because it is a good car and no incentives, the profit is not given away. I'll bet the residual value stays high for the Cruze just for those two points...hasn't been that way for GM cars for a few decades before the historical failure.
Looks like Ackerson wants incentives reduced, so they are improving from a management standpoint afaic.
So, make a great product and price it right. Problem is, everyone is waiting for the incentives since we are programed that way from the GM mentality up until now. A lot like miles points for air travel....biggest mistake of all time in the transportation industry.
Since the gov owns 2/3 of GM, did the gov get most of that 1.7 billion profit?
No, the Government will not break even on their investment for quite a long time. But here is where the profits go....
GM expects the fourth quarter to look a lot like the fourth quarter of last year, when profits were down because of increased costs related to product development and new-vehicle launches. Ammann explained on Wednesday that GM expects to see roughly two-thirds of its full-year profits in the second and third quarters, with the remainder split more toward the first quarter. Put another way, the fourth quarter will be weak relative to other quarters, because of a number of seasonal factors, but that's normal and expected.
Ammann also noted that the company's estimate of its pension liability had fallen to $8.7 billion from $18 billion a year ago. Although he declined to give specifics, saying that more details would be forthcoming next quarter, he did say that the "derisking" of the company's pension liability was going well and that no major cash contributions were expected in the near term. That's reassuring news on a front that had worried some investors, though more details will be helpful.
Long story short, GM's not doing badly, but it has opportunities to improve that are within its control, as well as macro challenges that need to be faced. Continued strength in North America and China should give GM managers the time and resources needed to make progress elsewhere, but the next few quarters will be interesting to watch.
Regards,
OW
We'll see for how long. Sales have dropped off a bit and GM is going to idle the Lordstown plant for a week to control inventory of the Cruze.
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/11/chevrolets-lordstown-plant-taking-week-off-to- -control-cruze-inv/
If $5000 is the incentive on a $40-60,000 truck or SUV, that's not bad, as there is a $7-10,000 margin on them anyhow. GM, F, and Chry. will always "look" worse given the sheer percentage of large trucks and SUV's they sell.
Now, if you can show me GM is spending 50% more in incentives on the Sonic/Cruze as opposed to the Yaris/Corolla, that's different.