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I have owned 2 GMC PU trucks, 2 Chevy PU trucks and a Chevy Suburban. Overall my experience with Chevrolet was better than GMC. I doubt I will ever buy another new PU truck so it is probably a moot point. I'm not sure that GMC should be around when most of the Chevy dealers are much bigger and better able to handle additional models. I would favor consolidating all into Chevrolet and Cadillac. Dump the rest get on with making money. I don't see this being possible without filing for bankruptcy.
Two, all the sales that are in those dealerships. GMC sold almost 600,000 vehicles last year(basically 2 large trucks with little rental fleet). That is about 5% of the total market. Not exactly something you want to risk. Chevy trucks sold about 10% of the total market. Now Pontiac sold about 500,000 but it took 8 models with a bit of fleet. Buick had 200,000 with really only 3 models. But since Buick is doing so well in China it would be hard to drop them and per model Buick is more profitable than Pontiac.
GM still does not have anything to challenge the Corolla or Civic that is built in the USA. I cannot see a bailout being sent overseas setting well with the tax payers. Can GM build a small efficient car with UAW labor and make a profit? If not they should just downsize to a truck SUV company and close up the rest.
I think that is what GM is trying to consolidate. The Enclave is built here, yet sold there ( only 15,000 units, though). Some of what is sold there as a Buick is too small for US market. 2010 LaCrosse (Chinese Invicta) is going to be sold in both, but built here for here and built there for there. RWD Park Ave is built there for there. Ironically, dealers here have balked at the idea of selling it here as they fear it would cut into Lucerne sales.
Pontiac could go w/o chapter 11 because few dealers would be shed. Dropping Pontiac would go to show Congress they are cutting. However dropping all 3 divisions would take chap 11 due to franchise laws.
Will GMC buyer go to Chevy? Probably most, but some will go elsewhere because they do not want a cheap Chevy.
The reason I say drop Buick is because of it image which I feel they have failed to shake, that of an older person's appliance. Even Cadillac has been successful in at least partially shaking that image. Pontiac has a better image.
But, I still say keep the brand names for various models and even bring back an Oldsmobile model. Drop the names as separate car divisions which are very costly and redundant..
On the other hand, the typical Buick buyer is age 66 someone posted.
Lets say todays gas prices are an anomaly. Lets say $4.50 is an anomaly.
The average person drives about 275 miles/wk. At 29 mpg, that's 9 gallons. In mixed driving, lets say you get 23 mpg, as I do with my Ultra. That's 11.5 gallons.
If gas prices stay fairly steady at between $2.50 and $3.50, then you are looking at $22.50-$31.50/wk for gas at 29 mpg, and $28.75 and $40.25 for 23 mpg.
Again, if things stay fairly steady, as I think they will, that's not that great of a difference in costs, and people will adjust.
Now, that's not to say that we can't and shouldn't do BETTER, as we definitely should, and CAN.
No, it is now 55. I thought I just posted this?
"On the foreign-manufacturer front, an interesting auto rivalry also had interesting statistics: The average age of Toyota shoppers was 46.6 years old, while the average age for Honda shoppers was 51.2."
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/01/down-economy-mo.html
If you look at the Lexus group the best they get is 27 in the ES and they seem to be doing fine. Now I am not saying the GPB group is equal to Lexus but just an example of success w/o a high mileage vehicle.
Now I do believe that if it does go GMC/Buick they could use a smaller premium vehicle and the Delta based Chinese Excelle could do it. They could be built here with the Cruze.
I think at that time, the Regal was actually the most "youthful" Buick sedan, although I think the Rendezvous was down around 48 I think.
I imagine that the average buyer age of the Buick Enclave is fairly low, and that probably helps bring the average down. A lot of older people used to buy Centurys, LeSabres, and Park Avenues. But the Park is gone now, and they don't sell nearly as many LaCrosses and Lucernes as they did Centurys and LeSabres. And I think the Lucerne and LaCrosse probably have lower buyer ages.
I wonder what all the really old people are buying these days, though? Most of the ones I know have either given up driving, like my grandmother (her last car was an '85 LeSabre) and Granddad ('94 Taurus was his last), or have just held onto their old cars longer. My grandmother's cousin, for instance, has a 1989 Coupe DeVille, and her sister in law has a 2003 or so Impala, purchased because the 2002 Intrepid she'd bought messed with her bee-hive hairdo!
I guess a lot of them are switching to Camrys. There's one lady here at work, in her 70's, who used to have a Regal sedan...like a 1992 or so. When it came time to get a new car, she went with 2003 or so Camry, and then traded it on a 2007 or 2008.
Maybe it really is true what they've been saying, that Toyota's becoming what Buick used to be!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't know about "really old" but the older people appeared to buy Sonatas, Civics, Accords, and Camrys after the Buick quality choices faded away. I don't notice older folk in Civics. I suspect the harsh ride may have grown old (no pun intended) after a while.
A friend replaced her Civic, that wouldn't start at times and was rusting out after 10 years and had a headliner that kept dropping along with other problems she didn't notice for a Corolla. While it's nice transportation local, I don't think I'd want to commute to Cincy in it because of the ride and the seats. And the driver seating is crooked relative to the steering wheel; I wasn't positioned correctly when I test drove it. She loves it. But the paint on the front is chipping. The bumper cover is so weak it broke loose when someone backed against (gently) it in a parallel parking space while she was downtown ushering for a show at the local theatre.
But she loves her Civic and loves her Corolla. She'd never buy another 1984 Cavalier because she had so much trouble with it :grin. She gauges cars by her Cavalier, despite her problems with her Civic and her Corolla.
A few of the older folks have bought CRVs and Rav4s.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Consider Buick.
What was once The General's aspirational luxury brand ("it's 'this close' to a Cadillac") has fallen on hard times, as anyone who has followed Buick's sales figures in the past few years -- or decades -- can attest.
Recently, in the past several years, GM has introduced a raft of new models, all with the aim of reducing the average age of Buick buyers from 63 to something a bit lower.
They have succeeded in changing the average age, so perhaps the new models assisted in altering the figure. However, the average age is now 65. We suspect that's not what the folks in Flint were after.
How did Buick get imbued with such an "ick" factor by the younger generation? Even signing golf legend Tiger Woods (a youthful 31) as its spokesman since 1999 has done nothing in budging Buick's average customer's age to somewhere south of the Social Security years. The cars that were supposed to herald the age of the youthful buyer at Buick -- the Lucerne and LaCrosse -- clock in with average buyer ages of 68 and 69.
And this can pose a problem for the brand, because not only does it mean that many people who buy Buicks are, in fact, older than in their late sixties, but that Buick is dealing with a population that may not buy many more new cars in their lifetime.
One way to combat this trend is in General Motors' decision to combine Pontiac, Buick, and GMC vehicles are a single dealership. In this way, the full product lines of all three divisions can be shown to prospective buyers -- and, Buick hopes, show off a LaCrosse to someone who might, until then, have been interested in a Pontiac G6.
One new vehicle that Buick managers hope to attract the public's attention with is the new Enclave CUV. It seems to be reaching a wider demographic than the traditional Buick vehicle, as the average age of new Enclave buyers is a youthful 55.
Not just for Older Folks
Regards,
OW
Sorry, I cannot support US taxpayers bailing out this company which rewards its CEO more than handsomely while ignoring its workers and shareholders.
When asked how he could defend this Wagoner totally avoided making any statements that were even close to justifying or answering this question.
The company deserves to go Chapter 11 and people like Wagoner should leave the company and perhaps follow their true aptitude and go into politics.
Yep, in a year it has dropped to 55. Do not know about everywhere else but here in Michigan the Lambdas are everywhere. And those with a little extra money buy the Enclave. And every one I see has a parent aged person driving it.
You might have missed this.
Regards,
OW
I tried renting an Acadia for a trip. Had it all lined out. When I went to pickup the car they handed me the keys to a Pacifica. I told them the only reason I was renting a vehicle was to test drive the Acadia. Ended up driving my PU truck. Probably for the best. I got better mileage than most are getting with the gas guzzling Lambda vehicles. You look through the reviews and poor mileage is predominant. Rated at 19 MPG combined. Most are getting 15-16 MPG. I do see a quite a few here. I don't think Toyota has anything to compare. Same with Ford. Kind of an upscale mini-van.
Take the 1-2 best vehicles from each "brand" and take them. Leave the rest, including the brand. Don't save "Chevrolet" - save the couple of good vehicles and then consolidate it all under a new name. I suggested GM but it could be anything.
That way you have a lineup of 10-12 cars that are the hot ones. No rental fodder. No base engine strippers. Fully loaded awesome cars across the board. GM may be smaller as a result, but then again, I don't see Mercedes having issues like this.
One way to combat this trend is in General Motors' decision to combine Pontiac, Buick, and GMC vehicles are a single dealership. In this way, the full product lines of all three divisions can be shown to prospective buyers -- and, Buick hopes, show off a LaCrosse to someone who might, until then, have been interested in a Pontiac G6.
One new vehicle that Buick managers hope to attract the public's attention with is the new Enclave CUV. It seems to be reaching a wider demographic than the traditional Buick vehicle, as the average age of new Enclave buyers is a youthful 55.
You might have missed this. "
Wasn't that data from July '07?
"And while Buick is typically the butt of jokes about buyers who are somewhere between retired and deceased, the average age of a Buick shopper last year was 55.2 years old, considerably younger than the average 63.6-year-old Mercedes-Benz shopper."
Current data shows average age for Buick is 55. If the Lucerne and LaCrosse still had an average age of 69 and the average age for Buick is 55 and using the current sales data that would put the average Enclave buyer at 20 which I doubt. If we assume the average age is 40 for the Enclave then the current age for the Lucerne and LaCrosse is 61. Which is the same as Mercedes. If we used an older number for Enclave the others would be even younger.
I think the data just shows that the age of Enclave buyers has brought down the Buick buyer age and seems to be lowering the other 2 models age also. Perhaps the strategy referred to in the article did work.
Now that the Enclave is considered the style leader, they can remove the other 3 from the mix and concentrate on the Enclave alone.
Pricing then becomes key and a base Enclave should be just under $30K.
As far as average age of car buyers go, here is some general trend info.
It doesn't matter how good a new car looks or how many miles per gallon it gets if you can't afford to buy it.
Evidence is clear that when given the choice between making a mortgage payment or a car payment, the house wins out. The weak U.S. economy and a housing market in the dumps kept many folks from buying a new set of wheels last year. The average age of new-vehicle buyers ended the year at 48 years old; in January 2007 it was 43.
Another telling tale about buying age from CNW was that the average age of shoppers choosing a domestic vehicle was 49.4 years old in 2007 — older than the average 42.5-year-old buyer of Asian cars but younger than the 50.6-year-olds choosing European nameplates.
Still, the median age of new-car buyers in the United States has risen to 47 from 40 over the last decade, while the median age of buyers of sport utility vehicles, minivans and pickups has climbed to 43 from 39, according to auto makers' research. Over the same period, the median age of all Americans has only crept up about three years to 34.9.
Regards,
OW
I have put a lot of miles on rental TrailBlazers in Hawaii. I cannot remember getting less than 16 MPG. Most of the time 17-18 MPG with short trips out of Hilo. Rarely drove over 55 MPH though. The little Equinox I got stuck with in April was no better than the TrailBlazer. Heck I can get 17 MPG out on the highway at 75 MPH with my porker Sequoia. I just had higher expectations for the Enclave and Acadia. Not sure why, as it is a large vehicle. I would still like to test drive one. Who knows, they may put in a small diesel that gets 35 MPG and lure me back into the fold.
I've read many posts that are insulting in their discussion of older people. I'm not clear about what age someone should have been in terms of youth to purchase a Buick and not be treated as a doddering old person, without teeth as one poster intimated in the past in another topic probably. I always found the sagacity of my elders to be enlightening.
On the other hand would we want all our car choices determined by what the youth want in their cars? I could make many direct and indirect inferences as to the characteristics of many of the youth I could picture as choosers of the cars' qualities made for all of us, but I'll spare the reader the insult level given to older people here on Edmunds in _some_ posts as to their incompetence because they chose a car that suited their needs, durability, reliability.
If Buick still made the full-sized, comfortable leSabre from '95-05 with the same quality parts throughout, I'd buy my next car today. Sell my older one and buy the kid a Cobalt, used or new. My father-in-law has a new Lucerne in his garage: he's 83.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
He has relatives who are still in the auto industry so he gets feedback. He worked for an independent company doing design work for 25 years, so he has a feeling for the auto industry. They live in Lower Michigan--need I say more?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
From Edmunds long term test of the Accord:
Best Fuel Economy: 28.7 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 14.5 mpg
Average Fuel Economy: 21.0 mpg
And this for their Enclave test:
Best Fuel Economy: 29.7 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 10.5 mpg
Average Fuel Economy: 17.5 mpg
Imagine that. Both over 20,000 miles of driving, and a 15% difference in fuel economy for a vehicle weighing almost 1500 pounds more.
I say welcome to the real America. Our Teamster health care started cutting coverage in the 1980s. We went from 100% medical, Dental & Eye care to much reduced coverage. It was sometime in the 1980s when they dropped health care for the retirees. It would have bankrupted the Union to continue with those expenses. We also went from retiring with full benefits at age 45 to 57. That is a big jump also. When I retired medical paid 70% up to $4000 out of pocket per year. Dental was 50% with a max of $2000 covered per year. That is a couple crowns. Eye care was $150 covered every other year.
We also had 100% free legal and a great health club gym with all the latest equipment. Tennis, racket ball, swimming. I used the legal on a divorce. That was nice. All that is gone since the early 1990s.
The Alaska Teamsters like the UAW have lost much of their workforce. They have lost market share. We peaked out during the Pipeline building about 1970 to 1979. If they build a new line across Canada it should provide a lot of good Union jobs for the skilled trades. They will need LOTS of PU trucks for the automakers that survive. Only heavy duty 1 ton crew cabs. No foo foo Tundra trucks allowed. :shades:
Now, there are exceptions to this, of course. The father of one of my former coworkers was a bigwig for Chrysler, and could get deeply discounted pricing on new cars. I still remember his mother running out one day and buying a brand-new 1999 Intrepid on the spot, because she had some get together with her golfing buddies that weekend, and didn't want them to see her in the same old car...a 1994 Intrepid with around 40,000 miles on it. She didn't like the '99 Intrepid because it was underpowered (i.e., she had never driven an OHC car before where you have to stomp it a bit), so within like two years, she had a fully-loaded LHS. Then when she got bored with that one, she bought a top-line Concorde, a 2003 I think. And then that gave way to a 2005 300C.
My coworker had a stroke and couldn't return to work, and moved pretty far away, so I haven't kept in touch, but I imagine that old lady is still changing cars like some people change underwear!
If Buick still made the full-sized, comfortable leSabre from '95-05 with the same quality parts throughout, I'd buy my next car today.
Just out of curiosity, why doesn't the Lucerne do it for you? It's big and comfy, and IMO seems better finished than the LeSabre. Fuel economy isn't down much. The 3.9/4-speed is rated at 17/26, whereas a 2000 era LeSabre 3.8/4-speed is 18/27 (newer rating system...its window sticker was probably 20/29). The car was getting a bit too big and heavy for the 3.8, but the 3.9 has about 30 more hp and is torquier, so it probably makes up for the extra weight.
If I was in the market for something like that, I'd consider a Lucerne. Sometimes, out of curiosity, I'll check the used car listings for them. The main thing that would keep me away, I guess, is that I just don't need something that big any more. It used to be with GM that their smaller cars sucked, and you had no choice but to move up to a larger car if you wanted some quality. However, the Malibu and Aura have shown that GM really can build a decent smaller car.
So in a roundabout way, I guess that makes me a Buick owner right now? :surprise:
Too funny!
They also need to rework their logo and cease using that oval grill; i.e., change their image. Their newer cars look just like their older Century/Regals. That was then, this is now.
As Obama would say, the current line of thinking and system is not working; it is a failed policy (except maybe in China).
>As Obama would say, the current line of thinking and system is not working; it is a failed policy
So why is he recycling all the old government folks from Clinton's cabinet and Carter's cabinet? Does Obama think the same people are going to give a different result now? Didn't he run on "change"?
>rework their logo and cease using that oval grill; i.e., rework and change their image. Their newer cars look just like their older Century/Regals.
I don't see that's needed. Could end up looking like Accord or Camry designs--odd.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Maybe that's part of what they need to do to be more successful.
I don't see that's needed. Could end up looking like Accord or Camry designs--odd.
Actually, I don't mind the style of my Dad's '03 Regal. I think it's handsome, in its conservative sort of way. My biggest complaints about the car are the the cramped back seat, interior, exterior fit and finish, and the handling, in no particular order.
Well, the cramped back seat you can't really do anything about, as it's just a fault of the W-body, and you can't really do anything about it without either a complete redesign, or lengthening the car in the back seat area. But, they've always been tight back there, right from the first 4-door GM10's back in 1990. A cramped back seat is really only a problem though if you're tall and regularly have back seat passengers. If you're more average in height, or rarely need to use the back seat, it's not such a big deal.
With the interior and fit and finish, I think GM has come a long way with the LaCrosse, compared to the Century/Regal. The body panel gaps are much tighter, and the parts line up much better, both inside and out. They've also improved the quality and feel of the interior components. Now maybe some people would still prefer an Accord or Camry, but IMO, these two have fallen victim to cost cutting. Lots more hard plastic in there than there used to be.
As for handling, I've never driven a LaCrosse, so I don't know how it handles. My Dad's Regal is nothing to write home about in handling...to me it feels about like my '76 LeMans. However, need to point out that the Regal is just a base LS model. It has 15x6 wheels, and the tires are 70-series, but can't remember if they're 205 or 215's. Meanwhile, my LeMans is wider 15x7 rims, 225/70-R15 tires, and somewhere along its life got the suspension beefed up a bit. So it probably handles better than it did when it rolled off the assembly line (rides rougher, too).
With the Regal, you could get upgraded wheels and tires if the handling really bothered you. And I imagine that a base LaCrosse probably starts you off with 16" rims these days and a tire that's either a 65 or 60-series.
I actually prefer the style of my Dad's '03 Regal to the current LaCrosse! I like the more distinctive full-width taillights, the larger window area, and the front-end, which seems to have less overhang. If you could take the '03 Regal and give it the LaCrosse interior and up-to-date fit and finish, I'd be happy with it.
Now of course I'm old enough that Buick would like to market to someone else but that's another story. They strike me as awfully close to what they want and likely need to be. They've been reliable over a long haul and have fixed up the interiors.
i had a Buick once - a 56 Special that was my toy. It was the eternal $600 car. I bought it for that in the early 70s and tracked the next three sales and they were all $600. Had a good time with it.
My grandfather had a great old 49 Buick and dad later picked up a 55 taht we liked a lot.
Dad bought a lot of cheap cars when I was a kid. That Buick was the best of the lot.
You got it wrong fezo. I agree to the notion that blaming America's bad economy on the D3 isn't totally right. But at the same time the D3 can't blame their condition on the bad economy, they effed up and put themselves in their current state. Btw the Big 3 now are Toyota, GM and VW.
"Also, I have NEVER seen such a bitter bunch of $H!%HEADS as I have in the last few weeks. I NEVER IN MY LIFE thought I would see an AMERICAN ROOT FOR ANOTHER AMERICAN to LOSE THEIR JOB, or at least get knocked down a peg."
Cooterbfd, PLEASE!!!! UAW are basically bunch of incompetent evil lazy people who want big time pay from doing big time NOTHING. How is that fair for others who work hard? You tell me. I don't root for Americans losing jobs, I root for IMPROVEMENT, which also means incompetents and devils like UAW deserve to lose their jobs. We're not bitter, we're realists, and you KNOW we're with the majority!!!
We look at reality, so save your narrow minded patriotism-nationalism or whatever you wanna call it, it doesnt apply in real life. Like OW says : nothing personal, just business.
1) Malibu
Styling just as bland as most competitors, not worth mentioning. Handles not that much behind Honda Accord (definitely Chevy's first), but much better than Camry. Slow acceleration insignificant, its a family sedan afterall, but its quiet inside, a surprise for me. The interior quality however disappoints me a bit, too much plastic? No, its the plastic's quality that bothers me, I found them still too brittle and felt fragile. Fit-finish not the best, still too many misaligned panels, but I dare say it's at least on par with Camry's. Not bad, GM.
2) Traverse
It's got the clean, simple muscular lines leading me to say the Traverse is the 2nd best looking Chevy after the upcoming Camaro (the clones are just ugly). Should GM become sensible and kill some of them, Traverse should be saved. Interior is decent, plastic panels felt more durable than those in the Malibu. Additional plus, the fit-finish is way better than Malibu's and any other Chevy trucks imo. Seats a bit mushy, but liveable. The 2nd and 3rd row are surprisingly small for the size, what the heck??? Apparently GM's old curse is still alive - bigger doesn't mean roomier... sucks. Another downside is 14mpg, thats the mileage I got (where's the EPA 17mpg?). One thing that baffles me is GM positions Traverse to replace the Trailblazer (???). With the Traverse being even larger than the Tahoe puts it into large suv category, how the heck can you replace a midsize truck with a full-size crossover?? That said I kinda like it and believe the Tahoe should be killed and replaced by the Traverse.
3) Corvette (duh...)
It's pointless to point out just how fast it can accelerate. Very accurate steering only a fraction less communicative than BMW 3's. Minor but annoying vibration in the steering column spoil the fun. With torque available at almost any rpm, I could drop it down to around 1500rpm w/o pressing the clutch and the engine still didnt stall. I wonder how good the ZO6 engine is... The interior is the only part that failed to impress, still too many hard plastic panels barely acceptable even in a Cobalt, and the leather seats felt like 2nd rate vynil. I'd vote for a new, more comfortably shaped and supportive seats. The steering wheel spokes are oddly shaped and placed, I find it uncomfortable. Overall I can still accept the interior given the attractive price tag, and the performance convinced me to forgive the Ferrari rip-off styling (decent looking nonetheless). If I'm in the market for "value priced" performance 2 seaters this car will absolutely be on the list.
4) G8 v8
It's so much bigger than the pictures suggest. Definitely a full-size car. Stylewise my only issue is the overwrought cosmetic, like the pointless-useless hood vents. The face is a bit bimmer wannabe, but the overall effect is somewhat european, not bad. Inside is another story, simple. Front seats very firm (similar to german cars) and supportive, though a bit wide for my taste. Materials not so bad, but the plastic-like leather is hard to accept for this price (is it resin coated or something?). Easy to read gauges, but the Nintendo style graphic is downright ridiculous. All switches work well save for the signal stalk, which felt as fragile as plastic toys. Engine very, very responsive, only 2 problems found: 1) the tranny lunged from one gear to another, and 2) the engine rattled suddenly at times, according to the sales rep it's the cylinder shutter operating. Handles well for such a big car, almost felt midsize I dare say. Best part is the dealer's offer, $30k flat for fully loaded v8.
5) CTS
Having experienced a rental previous-gen CTS I still think this car isn't that much a progress over the old one. Handles just as sharp, but the car still rolls and rides softly like the old. To be honest I barely felt any improvement in performance over the old one, and it's still too big imo. OTOH this will be a great long distance cruiser, especially with the new seats (much better than the old). Interior is better, both stylewise and materialwise. Better plastic all-around except for unconvincing metal-look dash part. The leather however hasn't improved, still felt on the value side. I'd rate the current CTS interior on par with Infiniti G, a fraction below BMW and trails everything else in class. I don't compare it with midsize competitors as it'll put CTS dead last (unless you add Chrysler 300c into the mix). I'd say the fit-finish is much improved were it not for the constantly rattling dash during my test drive. Most panels are neatly aligned, still trails competitors but not by much anymore. One gem is the stereo, darn impressive and it buries BMW's radio straight up. I still find it overpriced and with the infiniti G as competitor CTS has nothing in advantage except ride comfort (size about the same inside). All things said, good entry overall, best Cadi so far.
The thing is: only the Corvette and CTS seem most likely to last in the long term. G8 will soon go bye-bye, Traverse's 14 mpg will scare buyers off faster than Osama in downtown NY, and Malibu still needs quality improvement. See the problem there? 5 credible cars to rely on (okay, add solstice and lacrosse if necessary), about 40-50 others so-so or below par, how's that gonna work? GM is so F-ed....