You have named 7, and of those only 1 is going bankrupt.
Don't forget, supplier layoffs are the name of the game whether or not GM gets bailed out. The right-sizing plan it is trumpeting includes another 20% in production cuts and some tens of thousands of its own layoffs in the next few years.
But the bottom line is that suppliers are hanging in there, laying off as they deem appropriate, and they have made it this far in a market of 12 million annual sales. Whether GM stays or goes, the market will want another 12 million next year.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Did you ever consider suppliers need to reorganize as well. The old system is just that. Needs change all around. The economy, therefore, the customers have spoken.
That is happening globally for all industries. U.S. auto is WAYYYY overdue therefore, farther to fall.
Layoffs will happen when you go from 16M to 12M vehicles/year. But I bet the layoffs in the supplier industry are still small compared to the layoffs going on in the insurance and financial sectors. Citi Bank alone laid off 52,000 the other day. And a bailout of that sector is not going to stop those layoffs, nor stop brokerages and banks from failing as some have.
This deep recession is going to knock-out the weak and stupid companies of the global economy = Economic Darwinism; the better systems survive and thrive this way.
I suggest to everyone not to pigeonhole themselves psychologically into "what we are". No one is born to be a cop, teacher, nurse, accountant or UAW worker. And while you have one career, you should prepare yourself for the "what if" or should I say "when"- as all things change, for what you would possibly do after that. I hear you can still make a lot of money, and enjoy a lot of freedom down in the Australian Outback - mining.
I suggest to everyone not to pigeonhole themselves psychologically into "what we are". No one is born to be a cop, teacher, nurse, accountant or UAW worker. And while you have one career, you should prepare yourself for the "what if" or should I say "when"- as all things change, for what you would possibly do after that.
That's absolutely true. I know many that have been fired/layed off over the years have changed their careers and became even more successful.
But, I've never seen anything like what's going on now. To me the Big 3 type jobs have been dead/dieing for years. What's going on in the rest of the economy is very concerning. Looks like we have a long way to go before thing begin to improve.
At least the Port of Long Beach should be getting more rent. Until the ships stop coming. For those thinking that it's only GM or the Big 3 hurting, and everyone else in the industry doing just fine, well, it looks like they all are suffering.
And then they put 790 robots in the new Greensburg Indiana Civic plant. If they could eliminate one more American assembler in their plant they would. They don't allow our cars to be imported to Japan. In S. Korea, they tax audit someone who buys a foreign car. Way too much advantage taken of US. I should feel better that there is a stack of Mercedes that haven't immediately sold?
If they could eliminate one more American assembler in their plant they would.
Dave this is not really news. Machines have been replacing people for the last 150 years. We use backhoes, bulldozers, combines, and many other machines that have eliminated jobs. You could see this trend of replacing assembly workers, as machines get more sophisticated.
Way too much advantage taken of US.
The American public could have voluntarily not bought these products. But then the foreigners were hungrier for the business, while the Big3 continued with their bloated system.
Can you link a source? I would be curious to read it. One announcement they DID make yesterday was that they would be laying off about half of the 500 temporary workers they had in some plant or another down South. No permanent staff will be laid off in any of the production cuts Toyota is planning on for '09.
And hey! Importers DO pay for extra acreage at ports if they need more space to park cars while they wait for demand to pick back up. They interviewed the folks in charge at Richmond and Benicia, two ports here in the Bay Area that receive Japanese and Korean cars, as well as the Aussie GM cars, and they all said that so far automakers have not had any need for additional space beyond that which they are normally contracted for.
Apparently one of the biggest logjams, and one of the most unusual as well, is of Mercedes cars....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
we are deep into it now. the ratio of robots to assemblers is 790 to 900 in greensburg.
The UAW has rules that require the robot replace the work but not the position or pay. It's called Job Bank. That stifles the use of robots in old plants.
Yes I've heard of that. Not quite the same, but similarly: In MA, at any sort of a worksite, even if it's 1 telephone worker on a pole the police unions have a rule that an officer must have a car there, and they get an OT detail. In NH we don't do that, and on the larger work, we hire a couple of people, put vests on them, and give them flags and cones.
I like the concept of unions; until people introduce the human qualities of greed and ambition into them.
Holy crap! This could be one of the reasons Toyota is doing better than GM and the other Little 3 right now (from the article you linked):
Even before this auto sales meltdown, the Japanese automaker’s top ten execs earned less money COMBINED than Ford’s Alan Mulally, Chrysler’s Bob Nardelli and GM’s Rick Wagoner (individually). In fact ALL of Toyota’s execs together earned 3.92b yen. That’s $40.5m. And now Yomuiri reports “Toyota Motor Corp. will consider cutting the pay of its directors in fiscal 2009, it was learned Wednesday.......Toyota also expects reducing the remuneration of its directors to set an example as the company prepares to embark on thorough cost-cutting."
Why won't these overpaid execs at the domestics set an example with their own pay?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Habit? When you're used to a certain lifestyle, I can assume it's difficult to give up even just a little. Kind of reminds me of a union actually...
I do think it would send a positive message if these guys experienced a lifestyle similar to Joe sixpack rather than Donald Trump for a while. Maybe knock their egos down a few notches...
Democrats had been pushing for automakers to receive a $25 billion piece of the $700 billion Wall Street bailout while Republicans and the White House favored taking the money from an Energy Department loan program funded in September. The GOP proposal dropped restrictions that the money be used to retool factories to build more fuel-efficient vehicles.
GM is ready to respond with detailed plans that will address congressional concerns about the automaker's viability and show the company can survive and pay back taxpayer-funded loans, Wagoner said.
He did not, however, offer any details on what GM's plan might entail. "We've got the plans and are ready to go," Wagoner said. "We're not starting from ground zero here."
ALL GM BRANDS ABOVE AVERAGE IN LATEST J.D. POWER REPORT According to J.D. Power and Associates, the latest feedback from customers indicate GM and its dealers are top notch when it comes to customer satisfaction during the vehicle purchase experience. All GM brands outperformed the industry average in the 2008 J.D. Power and Associates Sales Satisfaction Index (SSI) Study.
SSI is an analysis of the new-vehicle purchase experience which measures five factors: dealership facility, salesperson, paperwork/finance process, delivery process; and vehicle price.
Industry Highlights Customer satisfaction with the new-vehicle sales process has improved steadily over the past three years Improvements are attributable to the level of attention that manufacturers and dealers place on providing a satisfying customers Jaguar ranks highest followed by Hummer, Lexus, Cadillac and Mercedes-Benz. Premium brands dominate the top 10 rankings
Industry average - 857 index points (based on a 1,000 point scale)
GM Brand Highlights All GM brands outperformed the industry average (by 10 index points or more) Three brands ranked in the top 10 (Hummer, Cadillac, Buick) Hummer #2 Cadillac #4 Buick #9 Saturn #11 Pontiac #13 Saab #13 Chevrolet #15 GMC #17
My question is why GMC is last yet sold in the same dealerships as Pontiac and Buick? Then again there are still quite a few stand alone Buick dealerships.
Also
"Between 2002-2006 GM reduced its warranty repairs by 40 percent and since that time another 14 percent improvement has been achieved. "
In light of all the crashing and burning going on of late, this study is much ado about nothing. I agree with this take.
Excerpt: Shock! Horror! How can customer satisfaction with the triumphant Japanese be below average? Because this survey has nothing to do with the car, and everything to do with the dealer. As in past years, the differences between the scores is small. Nearly every mainstream brand falls within 20 points of the average on a 1,000-point scale.
And about the warranty costs, I'd like to see the absolute numbers, not just the percentages, and have them compared with the competition.
about the warranty costs, I'd like to see the absolute numbers
I get the WarrantyWeek newsletter and the author lives for this stuff, and even he can't get a handle on much more than percentages. For privately held companies like Chrysler, it's even tougher, since much of his information comes from SEC reporting. Even his percentage numbers can't really be compared between companies, but are more to show how a company's quality trends are going.
The manufacturers would have this info from their dealer/warranty claims network, but they seem loathe to talk about that stuff.
WarrantyWeek does say:
"Does the total cost of warranty have any correlation to product quality? Based on the worldwide claims rates seen for the top five carmakers and quality data collected in the U.S. by J.D. Power and Associates, one does seem to be related to the other." link
That's before the 54% improvement. I had 2 cosmetic items fixed without issue under the warranty. After 6.5 years, the battery died. I had failed to properly maintain it. Nothing else has ever gone wrong and the mileage exceeds the EPA numbers. I got $7000 off MSRP when I bought it and I also got 97% of original price paid back on my 13 month old '00 GM trade-in.
If I wasn't paying the equiv of a new Malibu each year to send my son to college, I would be able to afford another new GM.
I just saw a used '08 Malibu in the paper for $13800, but it had 38k miles on it already. $7000 to drive the first 38k miles is a lot to spend by the first owner. My trade that I got 97% back on had only 5400 miles put on in the same amount of time, but the gov't allows $.585 a mile for business use, so the Malibu with 38000 miles could have already generated over $20,000 in business deductions for someone. Then $7k hit doesn't seem so bad.
"In light of all the crashing and burning going on of late, this study is much ado about nothing. I agree with this take. "
I agree, again the manufacturers/dealers are all close in what they sell today. This is just another measure that proves it.
BUT, we still see many who feel that the domestics are hugely deficit in many areas including dealer experience and this just proves that a sample of one is not a good measure of the entire sample size. In this case the dealership experience is better at GM than many of their competitors.
Since Hummer is number one, I just know that GM will sell a ton of these. Especially, with gas trending up, even though we are getting gas cheap, for now.
All it takes is a missile test by Iran or a military maneuver by some wacky dictator and there goes the price of gas!
Why can't they make a small car as good as a gas guzzler?
"The forthcoming Fisker Karma plug-in hybrid sports car will be able to drive 50 miles on the electricity it gets from your home outlet, but after the batteries are depleted it will use a 2.0-liter Ecotec engine from General Motors to recharge the cells, the company has announced."
They want to do what the finance industry has done - basically take the cash and run.
They want to take all of the money outside of the U.S. and put it into their businesses over there. Outsource everything and close down U.S. operations as much as possible. Of course Congress doesn't want them to do this, which is why the dodge, stall, and lie. But it's clear that they want a way out and aren't willing to attempt to do it themselves by filing for Chapter 11.
Paying off the job bank and pension funds - they'll likely leave that to the government to deal with once they are gone.
"Perhaps somehow the government can make chap 11 work but I do not know how. Perhaps they could guarantee the warranty on all sold vehicles? Perhaps independent warranty companies supply warranty with the government backing up the warranty companies? "
Chap11 ain't gonna happen. There's no way the government will take over customer warranties at this point. With huge debts already past due or near deadline, like the $700 billion to China, the government simply can't afford it. Remember Chrysler when they closed Plymouth? Chrysler claimed that other Chrysler brands would take over and honor the rest of the warranty. Didn't happen, Plymouth owners had to scream and sue to (occasionally) get their warranties from Chrysler. The same happened to, oh, Oldsmobile, which death still baffles me even now (why killed the good car division with decent products when trashy ones like Pontiac and GMC stayed?) As for the latter, well, it can happen, but at a price. There'll be extra charges, and I dare say the customers will have to pay for it.
I'm actually against the bailout proposal. Detroit's (no-more-Big) 3 put themselves into this mess, with poor management, dismal products and too much greed, and it's a shameless move to ask us taxpayers to save them. However given the current situation I can understand if the government decides to accept. Should GM alone go under about 1 million Americans will lose their jobs, and it's estimated that over 2 million will go jobless if the D3 really go bust. If it's only auto industries falling off I won't hesitate to say drop dead, as UAW needs a real kick in the butt (lazy workers greedy execs), but this time the whole country's falling down... I personally prefer bankruptcy, with the idea of other companies salvaging whats left of their assets, create a whole new company with decent products and for goodness sake free from UAW and their ridiculous demands. However, again, given current situation I wonder if there's a single company willing to bet their chips on auto industries when sales already tanked so deeply even mighty Toyota and BMW have to cut down production.
"I like the concept of unions; until people introduce the human qualities of greed and ambition into them. "
Darn straight kernick. Oh and add lazyness to the equation. If anything I say the UAW doesn't deserve to be saved. I recall visiting Fairfax plant years ago and from what I saw the workers were among the laziest I've ever seen. How's quality to really improve this way? No, enough is enough...
Please note that I understand if government bails them out, but I don't support it. I prefer chap7 Darwin's theory, survival of the fittest.
I would imagine other car makers could salvage some of the factories to make good cars. They would most likely need to be gutted and all new modern technology installed. The biggest challenge will be finding people that are willing to work for competitive wages in those heavily UAW entitled towns. Maybe after 2 - 5 years they will be ready to accept the reality of a job that you are required to work at the going rate of pay. I would see nothing but problems for a Honda or Toyota building a factory in Detroit. I would think a Chinese company coming in would be easier. They could give them the rules and bring in people from other places if the locals are not willing to accept the wages and conditions. There are 10 million people out of work and untold millions of Illegals soon to be given legal status. There will be NO shortage of labor to build as many cars as are needed.
Chery * Chevy what's the difference? They rental agencies will always need cheapo cars.
Report: GM directors' options include bankruptcy filing
AUTOMOTIVE NEWS 12:23 am U.S. ET | Nov. 22
General Motors directors are considering a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing, the Wall Street Journal and Detroit television stations reported. According to local TV reports, GM's board was meeting late Friday night in the company's downtown Detroit headquarters and had added court protection to the list of actions that may be taken as the company's cash supplies dwindle and the prospects for immediate federal aid dim.
Interesting point, gagrice. I believe the same way, there are more employees needing work than the employers needing workers. This is where the UAW needs a good beating in the butt. They're so lazy and yet they still constantly demand higher pay, so shameless......
Meanwhile, GM's latest effort: Volt can go bust. At first I was interested what might be GM's answer to the Prius and Insight, but then I was cold showered back by these: 1) Battery lasts only 40 miles??? Why bother? And after the battery's out you'll be back on the old gas engine. 2) Battery durability still in question, GM aims at 10 years, but expect no more than 5 for current design. And the battery replacement will cost about 10k... 3) The atom bomb: $40k sticker? Even by GM estimates (assuming the battery really last 10 yrs) it'll take at least 10 years for ROI over a $20k compact, and by then you'll need battery change already. This means 20 years to recoup the extra cost.... 4) The federal tax cut is still on discussion, and I seriously doubt we'll get $7500 given our current economy...
From this point the Volt becomes less and less interesting. If this is the best GM can do, then chap11 or 7 seems inevitable....
I will always pay an extra $500 fully proudly knowing I buy from one of the big 3. It also would not be fair for the big 3 to unmask future plans and ideas to congress as they have done enough damage already. To blame the bad economy on the big 3 is ludicrous. It is going to bite all of you in the butt sooner or later supporing and giving in to slave labor.
It is going to bite all of you in the butt sooner or later supporing and giving in to slave labor.
I'll put the same proposition to you. My last two vehicles were both built in Indiana. I am assuming by willing workers and not slave labor. Why is the 2007 Toyota Sequoia far superior in almost all areas over the 2005 Sierra hybrid PU truck? My guess is the 35% higher cost of labor translates into skimping on quality parts. The 2005 GMC was the 5th and probably the last GM vehicle for me. My previous GM trucks were all great vehicles. I don't care what it cost GM to build a vehicle. I expect a truck to be solid. GM has lost my share of the market by downgrading quality. The GMC climate and sound were superior to the Toyota. I assume that stuff was mostly from China on both vehicles.
Add me to your list. This GMC Denali is far from professional grade in the quality/satisfaction department.
After SUPPORTING US Auto industry will over $100K worth of buys just for me and my wife, not including the rest of my family, we all feel the same that GM skimps on parts and therefor is second rate product for a long time now.
Easy to see why going away will probably happen no matter $50B or $200B invested in a bailout or C11. Change Time!.
BTW, my wife DEMANDED Honda or Toyota and she decided on the CR-V.
meg: It is going to bite all of you in the butt sooner or later supporing and giving in to slave labor.
me: Are you saying that the majority of U.S. workers are slave-laborers; because most people don't belong to unions? I work in a non-union manufacturing plant, and everything seems to run fine. The direct laborers all make ok money, get OT, own cars and homes. They get health care, annual profit-sharing bonus, and 401K just like the white collar people. If they don't work or are lazy yes they get let go, and replaced tomorrow.
I can't imagine GM considering CH11 is something they just put on the board Fri. night. If so, They're management is really incompetent!
I will always pay an extra $500 fully proudly knowing I buy from one of the big 3. It also would not be fair for the big 3 to unmask future plans and ideas to congress as they have done enough damage already. To blame the bad economy on the big 3 is ludicrous.
Aye, to blame it all on Big-ish 3 is somewhat off, I agree. But to ask them to reveal future plans is totally necessary so the government can figure out where the money goes to. Otherwise they may use the bailout funds for the exec boards' own benefit. Remember it's the 3's own fault for getting into this mess.
I still cant believe I once wasted $27k buying a Detroit product. Someday I will, like meg proudly spend $500 extra on a domestic when/if they finally get it right. For now, forget it, bub.
Why is the 2007 Toyota Sequoia far superior in almost all areas over the 2005 Sierra hybrid PU truck? My guess is the 35% higher cost of labor translates into skimping on quality parts.
2 reasons: 1) the aformentioned skimping on quality, and 2) 35% higher cost for lazy labors. Kernick, I dont know about non-union labors but UAW ones are lazy, yet they still complain about not enough pay. Pathetic... :sick:
They're incompetent alright, from top to bottom. Chap 7 anyone?
The Volt is a joke. Basically made to be lease-only and crushed at the end, like their last car. Something they threw out into the marketplace to appear to be caring and doing something real about the problem.
40 miles? I remember seeing Ford Escort conversions back in 1990 where I was living at the time(smaller N. Cal town where this sort of thing was popular) that got 40-60 miles from lead acid batteries. Total conversion cost at retail prices was $6-8K.
http://www.evalbum.com/194.html The volt is rubbish. More of the same worthless junk that they did last time. DIYers are doing better for half the money. And the car isn't "lease only"
But if you want to go farther back in time, that range was possible a hundred years ago with various electric vehicles. If they waste their money of junk like this, they deserve to crash and let someone else take over.
And as far as the UAW? Well, those workers who are used to their UAW lifestyle will absolutely work for less when the UAW is dead and gone and they are looking at working or standing in a soup line.
"The Volt is a joke. Basically made to be lease-only and crushed at the end, like their last car. Something they threw out into the marketplace to appear to be caring and doing something real about the problem."
So, where'd you pull that comment out of???? The CLOSEST, I've heard to a lease deal was where they were considering letting you lease the battery packs, JUST LIKE NISSAN IS CONSIDERING!!!! But I suppose you think that's OK.
Also, I have NEVER seen such a bitter bunch of $H!%HEADS as I have in the last few weeks. I NEVER IN MY LIFE thought I would see an AMERICAN ROOT FOR ANOTHER AMERICAN to LOSE THEIR JOB, or at least get knocked down a peg. I don't work for the Big 3, and are as blue collar as they come, and feel BLESSED at my lot in life. I may not be looking for taxpayer money, but I am HAPPY they make what they make, and I hope the workers at the transplants are AS SUCCESSFUL AS ANY BLUE COLLAR WORKER IN THE USA.
I have never belonged to a Union in my life and have done quite well....thank you!
The problem with Unions (and one of the Big Three Problems) is that Unions artificially drive wages up for jobs that require little skill.
This may be a simplistic example - but I just don't see how it's worth to pay somebody Union Wages (plus health and retirement) for pushing a button and lowering a powertrain in to a car on a assembly line.
My sister-in-law used to work for a major airline, mind you this was over ten years ago and made $22.00 an hour literally cleaning toilets on airplanes.
Union wages does not transer to quality.
BTW-Honda and Toyota sales are down as well. The difference is they have substantial cash reserves due to sound business practices and the willingness for people to buy their product. In the case of the Prius, (until lately) standing in line and putting your name on a list to get one!
"....I have never belonged to a Union in my life and have done quite well....thank you!"
Thank yourself for a job WELL DONE!!!! I'm glad to hear that, and hope you keep it up. Maybe someday we'll run into one another and have a beer!!!
Unions don't artificially drive up wages. We keep our companies feet to the fire. Salary has NEVER been an obsticle in our negotiations. What I wonder is why we fight amongst one another over whether we should pay for healthcare, or how much we should pay, when those fat cat ins. companies screw us for 10-15% rate hikes, every year and nobody (even our bosses) asks why???
BTW, are you HAPPY FOR or do you RESENT your SIL's salary???
I also can't imagine putting down $27K for a GM product. When I see prices on an Enclave my jaw drops. Sorry. Count me out.
Ditto. My wife was thinking loosely on the Enclave until she saw the price and remembered the problems she has had with her current CMC Yukon. She bought a CR-V last week. Nothing new from our perspective.
We'll wait for the NEW AUTO MANUFACTURERS OF THE FUTURE.
If voting for change equals voting for lost jobs in your view, it is misguided emotion. There is no way U.S. Auto can continue on the path they have chosen. Nothing personal, just business.
I have faith that anyone who looses their jobs in this next period of massive change finds better opportunity as the economy strengthens. Still praying for EVERYONE who needs to find work in this tough economy.
Ditto. My wife was thinking loosely on the Enclave until she saw the price and remembered the problems she has had with her current CMC Yukon. She bought a CR-V last week. Nothing new from our perspective.
So she no longer has the Denali? She bought a CR-V? If so, what does "We'll wait for the NEW AUTO MANUFACTURERS OF THE FUTURE." mean? There's no waiting if she bought one last week?
Don't mind me I'm just confused trying to follow the postings.
Also, I have NEVER seen such a bitter bunch of $H!%HEADS as I have in the last few weeks. I NEVER IN MY LIFE thought I would see an AMERICAN ROOT FOR ANOTHER AMERICAN to LOSE THEIR JOB, or at least get knocked down a peg.
I'd bet that all of us really are pretty close on what we want. We want an American car industry that is successful, that we can be proud of. We don't want hard-working Americans to lose their jobs. The difference is that we all see different ways to get there.
You may want a bailout, and not to have UAW members lose jobs. I may believe that this propagates failure, and that more jobs will be lost by perpetuating a non-competitive auto industry.
In particular, I think that tough medicine now will give us a better chance for cars we can be proud of, and workers that (like most of the workers in the US at Honda and Toyota) can feel confident in the security of their jobs. I'd argue that you are taking the short term view, and that others of us are taking the long view. If we save some jobs over the next 1-3 years but the fundamental problems are not solved, then that's just a few more years we are ashamed and embarrassed by the auto industry in our country.
I don't want to be ashamed anymore, and the quickest way to give us a chance for excellence is to let them (no, REQUIRE them) to undergo radical restructuring. And yes, in the short run that will mean lost jobs. But those jobs are going to go away, one way or another, over the next few years anyway.
So perhaps you respectfully disagree, but DON'T assume we're happy about people losing their jobs.
Comments
http://www.mma-net.org/mmweek/mfginfo.asp
You have named 7, and of those only 1 is going bankrupt.
Don't forget, supplier layoffs are the name of the game whether or not GM gets bailed out. The right-sizing plan it is trumpeting includes another 20% in production cuts and some tens of thousands of its own layoffs in the next few years.
But the bottom line is that suppliers are hanging in there, laying off as they deem appropriate, and they have made it this far in a market of 12 million annual sales. Whether GM stays or goes, the market will want another 12 million next year.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That is happening globally for all industries. U.S. auto is WAYYYY overdue therefore, farther to fall.
Economics.
Regards,
OW
This deep recession is going to knock-out the weak and stupid companies of the global economy = Economic Darwinism; the better systems survive and thrive this way.
I suggest to everyone not to pigeonhole themselves psychologically into "what we are". No one is born to be a cop, teacher, nurse, accountant or UAW worker. And while you have one career, you should prepare yourself for the "what if" or should I say "when"- as all things change, for what you would possibly do after that. I hear you can still make a lot of money, and enjoy a lot of freedom down in the Australian Outback - mining.
That's absolutely true. I know many that have been fired/layed off over the years have changed their careers and became even more successful.
But, I've never seen anything like what's going on now. To me the Big 3 type jobs have been dead/dieing for years. What's going on in the rest of the economy is very concerning. Looks like we have a long way to go before thing begin to improve.
Yeah, and nobody aspires to be a Wal~Mart greeter, Starbucks barista, or burger-flipper.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Dave this is not really news. Machines have been replacing people for the last 150 years. We use backhoes, bulldozers, combines, and many other machines that have eliminated jobs. You could see this trend of replacing assembly workers, as machines get more sophisticated.
Way too much advantage taken of US.
The American public could have voluntarily not bought these products. But then the foreigners were hungrier for the business, while the Big3 continued with their bloated system.
And hey! Importers DO pay for extra acreage at ports if they need more space to park cars while they wait for demand to pick back up. They interviewed the folks in charge at Richmond and Benicia, two ports here in the Bay Area that receive Japanese and Korean cars, as well as the Aussie GM cars, and they all said that so far automakers have not had any need for additional space beyond that which they are normally contracted for.
Apparently one of the biggest logjams, and one of the most unusual as well, is of Mercedes cars....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Here's the link.
Toyota May Cut Executives’ Salary
The UAW has rules that require the robot replace the work but not the position or pay. It's called Job Bank. That stifles the use of robots in old plants.
I like the concept of unions; until people introduce the human qualities of greed and ambition into them.
Even before this auto sales meltdown, the Japanese automaker’s top ten execs earned less money COMBINED than Ford’s Alan Mulally, Chrysler’s Bob Nardelli and GM’s Rick Wagoner (individually). In fact ALL of Toyota’s execs together earned 3.92b yen. That’s $40.5m. And now Yomuiri reports “Toyota Motor Corp. will consider cutting the pay of its directors in fiscal 2009, it was learned Wednesday.......Toyota also expects reducing the remuneration of its directors to set an example as the company prepares to embark on thorough cost-cutting."
Why won't these overpaid execs at the domestics set an example with their own pay?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I do think it would send a positive message if these guys experienced a lifestyle similar to Joe sixpack rather than Donald Trump for a while. Maybe knock their egos down a few notches...
Do you REALLY believe that greater inefficiency is the path to prosperity for companies in the US?!! :confuse:
GM is ready to respond with detailed plans that will address congressional concerns about the automaker's viability and show the company can survive and pay back taxpayer-funded loans, Wagoner said.
He did not, however, offer any details on what GM's plan might entail. "We've got the plans and are ready to go," Wagoner said. "We're not starting from ground zero here."
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081121/AUTO01/811210387/1148/AUT- O01
SSI is an analysis of the new-vehicle purchase experience which measures five factors: dealership facility, salesperson, paperwork/finance process, delivery process; and vehicle price.
Industry Highlights
Customer satisfaction with the new-vehicle sales process has improved steadily over the past three years
Improvements are attributable to the level of attention that manufacturers and dealers place on providing a satisfying customers
Jaguar ranks highest followed by Hummer, Lexus, Cadillac and Mercedes-Benz. Premium brands dominate the top 10 rankings
Industry average - 857 index points (based on a 1,000 point scale)
GM Brand Highlights
All GM brands outperformed the industry average (by 10 index points or more)
Three brands ranked in the top 10 (Hummer, Cadillac, Buick)
Hummer #2
Cadillac #4
Buick #9
Saturn #11
Pontiac #13
Saab #13
Chevrolet #15
GMC #17
My question is why GMC is last yet sold in the same dealerships as Pontiac and Buick? Then again there are still quite a few stand alone Buick dealerships.
Also
"Between 2002-2006 GM reduced its warranty repairs by 40 percent and since that time another 14 percent improvement has been achieved. "
Excerpt: Shock! Horror! How can customer satisfaction with the triumphant Japanese be below average? Because this survey has nothing to do with the car, and everything to do with the dealer. As in past years, the differences between the scores is small. Nearly every mainstream brand falls within 20 points of the average on a 1,000-point scale.
And about the warranty costs, I'd like to see the absolute numbers, not just the percentages, and have them compared with the competition.
I get the WarrantyWeek newsletter and the author lives for this stuff, and even he can't get a handle on much more than percentages. For privately held companies like Chrysler, it's even tougher, since much of his information comes from SEC reporting. Even his percentage numbers can't really be compared between companies, but are more to show how a company's quality trends are going.
The manufacturers would have this info from their dealer/warranty claims network, but they seem loathe to talk about that stuff.
WarrantyWeek does say:
"Does the total cost of warranty have any correlation to product quality? Based on the worldwide claims rates seen for the top five carmakers and quality data collected in the U.S. by J.D. Power and Associates, one does seem to be related to the other." link
If I wasn't paying the equiv of a new Malibu each year to send my son to college, I would be able to afford another new GM.
I just saw a used '08 Malibu in the paper for $13800, but it had 38k miles on it already. $7000 to drive the first 38k miles is a lot to spend by the first owner. My trade that I got 97% back on had only 5400 miles put on in the same amount of time, but the gov't allows $.585 a mile for business use, so the Malibu with 38000 miles could have already generated over $20,000 in business deductions for someone. Then $7k hit doesn't seem so bad.
I agree, again the manufacturers/dealers are all close in what they sell today. This is just another measure that proves it.
BUT, we still see many who feel that the domestics are hugely deficit in many areas including dealer experience and this just proves that a sample of one is not a good measure of the entire sample size. In this case the dealership experience is better at GM than many of their competitors.
All it takes is a missile test by Iran or a military maneuver by some wacky dictator and there goes the price of gas!
Why can't they make a small car as good as a gas guzzler?
That's why I say NO MONEY!
I better warm up the corporate jet.............
They want to take all of the money outside of the U.S. and put it into their businesses over there. Outsource everything and close down U.S. operations as much as possible. Of course Congress doesn't want them to do this, which is why the dodge, stall, and lie. But it's clear that they want a way out and aren't willing to attempt to do it themselves by filing for Chapter 11.
Paying off the job bank and pension funds - they'll likely leave that to the government to deal with once they are gone.
Chap11 ain't gonna happen. There's no way the government will take over customer warranties at this point. With huge debts already past due or near deadline, like the $700 billion to China, the government simply can't afford it. Remember Chrysler when they closed Plymouth? Chrysler claimed that other Chrysler brands would take over and honor the rest of the warranty. Didn't happen, Plymouth owners had to scream and sue to (occasionally) get their warranties from Chrysler. The same happened to, oh, Oldsmobile, which death still baffles me even now (why killed the good car division with decent products when trashy ones like Pontiac and GMC stayed?)
As for the latter, well, it can happen, but at a price. There'll be extra charges, and I dare say the customers will have to pay for it.
I'm actually against the bailout proposal. Detroit's (no-more-Big) 3 put themselves into this mess, with poor management, dismal products and too much greed, and it's a shameless move to ask us taxpayers to save them. However given the current situation I can understand if the government decides to accept. Should GM alone go under about 1 million Americans will lose their jobs, and it's estimated that over 2 million will go jobless if the D3 really go bust. If it's only auto industries falling off I won't hesitate to say drop dead, as UAW needs a real kick in the butt (lazy workers greedy execs), but this time the whole country's falling down...
I personally prefer bankruptcy, with the idea of other companies salvaging whats left of their assets, create a whole new company with decent products and for goodness sake free from UAW and their ridiculous demands. However, again, given current situation I wonder if there's a single company willing to bet their chips on auto industries when sales already tanked so deeply even mighty Toyota and BMW have to cut down production.
Darn straight kernick. Oh and add lazyness to the equation. If anything I say the UAW doesn't deserve to be saved. I recall visiting Fairfax plant years ago and from what I saw the workers were among the laziest I've ever seen. How's quality to really improve this way? No, enough is enough...
Please note that I understand if government bails them out, but I don't support it. I prefer chap7 Darwin's theory, survival of the fittest.
Chery * Chevy what's the difference? They rental agencies will always need cheapo cars.
AUTOMOTIVE NEWS
12:23 am U.S. ET | Nov. 22
General Motors directors are considering a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing, the Wall Street Journal and Detroit television stations reported. According to local TV reports, GM's board was meeting late Friday night in the company's downtown Detroit headquarters and had added court protection to the list of actions that may be taken as the company's cash supplies dwindle and the prospects for immediate federal aid dim.
from autonews.com
Meanwhile, GM's latest effort: Volt can go bust. At first I was interested what might be GM's answer to the Prius and Insight, but then I was cold showered back by these:
1) Battery lasts only 40 miles??? Why bother? And after the battery's out you'll be back on the old gas engine.
2) Battery durability still in question, GM aims at 10 years, but expect no more than 5 for current design. And the battery replacement will cost about 10k...
3) The atom bomb: $40k sticker? Even by GM estimates (assuming the battery really last 10 yrs) it'll take at least 10 years for ROI over a $20k compact, and by then you'll need battery change already. This means 20 years to recoup the extra cost....
4) The federal tax cut is still on discussion, and I seriously doubt we'll get $7500 given our current economy...
From this point the Volt becomes less and less interesting. If this is the best GM can do, then chap11 or 7 seems inevitable....
It is going to bite all of you in the butt sooner or later supporing and giving in to slave labor.
I'll put the same proposition to you. My last two vehicles were both built in Indiana. I am assuming by willing workers and not slave labor. Why is the 2007 Toyota Sequoia far superior in almost all areas over the 2005 Sierra hybrid PU truck? My guess is the 35% higher cost of labor translates into skimping on quality parts. The 2005 GMC was the 5th and probably the last GM vehicle for me. My previous GM trucks were all great vehicles. I don't care what it cost GM to build a vehicle. I expect a truck to be solid. GM has lost my share of the market by downgrading quality. The GMC climate and sound were superior to the Toyota. I assume that stuff was mostly from China on both vehicles.
After SUPPORTING US Auto industry will over $100K worth of buys just for me and my wife, not including the rest of my family, we all feel the same that GM skimps on parts and therefor is second rate product for a long time now.
Easy to see why going away will probably happen no matter $50B or $200B invested in a bailout or C11. Change Time!.
BTW, my wife DEMANDED Honda or Toyota and she decided on the CR-V.
Regards,
OW
me: Are you saying that the majority of U.S. workers are slave-laborers; because most people don't belong to unions? I work in a non-union manufacturing plant, and everything seems to run fine. The direct laborers all make ok money, get OT, own cars and homes. They get health care, annual profit-sharing bonus, and 401K just like the white collar people. If they don't work or are lazy yes they get let go, and replaced tomorrow.
I can't imagine GM considering CH11 is something they just put on the board Fri. night. If so, They're management is really incompetent!
Well, it might end for this GM management and board membership.
Regards,
OW
Aye, to blame it all on Big-ish 3 is somewhat off, I agree. But to ask them to reveal future plans is totally necessary so the government can figure out where the money goes to. Otherwise they may use the bailout funds for the exec boards' own benefit. Remember it's the 3's own fault for getting into this mess.
I still cant believe I once wasted $27k buying a Detroit product. Someday I will, like meg proudly spend $500 extra on a domestic when/if they finally get it right. For now, forget it, bub.
Why is the 2007 Toyota Sequoia far superior in almost all areas over the 2005 Sierra hybrid PU truck? My guess is the 35% higher cost of labor translates into skimping on quality parts.
2 reasons: 1) the aformentioned skimping on quality, and 2) 35% higher cost for lazy labors. Kernick, I dont know about non-union labors but UAW ones are lazy, yet they still complain about not enough pay. Pathetic... :sick:
They're incompetent alright, from top to bottom. Chap 7 anyone?
Come on now. All automakers have been hit by the recession but only the BIg 3, particularly GM are begging for help.
I also can't imagine putting down $27K for a GM product. When I see prices on an Enclave my jaw drops. Sorry. Count me out.
40 miles? I remember seeing Ford Escort conversions back in 1990 where I was living at the time(smaller N. Cal town where this sort of thing was popular) that got 40-60 miles from lead acid batteries. Total conversion cost at retail prices was $6-8K.
http://www.evalbum.com/194.html
The volt is rubbish. More of the same worthless junk that they did last time. DIYers are doing better for half the money. And the car isn't "lease only"
But if you want to go farther back in time, that range was possible a hundred years ago with various electric vehicles. If they waste their money of junk like this, they deserve to crash and let someone else take over.
http://globalmotors.net/bmw-confirms-new-electric-car-with-200-mile-range/
Totally dead if BMW is doing stuff like this for half the cost.
And as far as the UAW? Well, those workers who are used to their UAW lifestyle will absolutely work for less when the UAW is dead and gone and they are looking at working or standing in a soup line.
So, where'd you pull that comment out of???? The CLOSEST, I've heard to a lease deal was where they were considering letting you lease the battery packs, JUST LIKE NISSAN IS CONSIDERING!!!! But I suppose you think that's OK.
Also, I have NEVER seen such a bitter bunch of $H!%HEADS as I have in the last few weeks. I NEVER IN MY LIFE thought I would see an AMERICAN ROOT FOR ANOTHER AMERICAN to LOSE THEIR JOB, or at least get knocked down a peg. I don't work for the Big 3, and are as blue collar as they come, and feel BLESSED at my lot in life. I may not be looking for taxpayer money, but I am HAPPY they make what they make, and I hope the workers at the transplants are AS SUCCESSFUL AS ANY BLUE COLLAR WORKER IN THE USA.
The problem with Unions (and one of the Big Three Problems) is that Unions artificially drive wages up for jobs that require little skill.
This may be a simplistic example - but I just don't see how it's worth to pay somebody Union Wages (plus health and retirement) for pushing a button and lowering a powertrain in to a car on a assembly line.
My sister-in-law used to work for a major airline, mind you this was over ten years ago and made $22.00 an hour literally cleaning toilets on airplanes.
Union wages does not transer to quality.
BTW-Honda and Toyota sales are down as well. The difference is they have substantial cash reserves due to sound business practices and the willingness for people to buy their product. In the case of the Prius, (until lately) standing in line and putting your name on a list to get one!
Thank yourself for a job WELL DONE!!!! I'm glad to hear that, and hope you keep it up. Maybe someday we'll run into one another and have a beer!!!
Unions don't artificially drive up wages. We keep our companies feet to the fire. Salary has NEVER been an obsticle in our negotiations. What I wonder is why we fight amongst one another over whether we should pay for healthcare, or how much we should pay, when those fat cat ins. companies screw us for 10-15% rate hikes, every year and nobody (even our bosses) asks why???
BTW, are you HAPPY FOR or do you RESENT your SIL's salary???
Ditto. My wife was thinking loosely on the Enclave until she saw the price and remembered the problems she has had with her current CMC Yukon. She bought a CR-V last week. Nothing new from our perspective.
We'll wait for the NEW AUTO MANUFACTURERS OF THE FUTURE.
Regards,
OW
I have faith that anyone who looses their jobs in this next period of massive change finds better opportunity as the economy strengthens. Still praying for EVERYONE who needs to find work in this tough economy.
Regards,
OW
So she no longer has the Denali? She bought a CR-V? If so, what does "We'll wait for the NEW AUTO MANUFACTURERS OF THE FUTURE." mean? There's no waiting if she bought one last week?
Don't mind me I'm just confused trying to follow the postings.
I'd bet that all of us really are pretty close on what we want. We want an American car industry that is successful, that we can be proud of. We don't want hard-working Americans to lose their jobs. The difference is that we all see different ways to get there.
You may want a bailout, and not to have UAW members lose jobs. I may believe that this propagates failure, and that more jobs will be lost by perpetuating a non-competitive auto industry.
In particular, I think that tough medicine now will give us a better chance for cars we can be proud of, and workers that (like most of the workers in the US at Honda and Toyota) can feel confident in the security of their jobs. I'd argue that you are taking the short term view, and that others of us are taking the long view. If we save some jobs over the next 1-3 years but the fundamental problems are not solved, then that's just a few more years we are ashamed and embarrassed by the auto industry in our country.
I don't want to be ashamed anymore, and the quickest way to give us a chance for excellence is to let them (no, REQUIRE them) to undergo radical restructuring. And yes, in the short run that will mean lost jobs. But those jobs are going to go away, one way or another, over the next few years anyway.
So perhaps you respectfully disagree, but DON'T assume we're happy about people losing their jobs.