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The Big 3 have been losing market share for years. They were making big bucks and did not build anything people wanted except SUVs and PU trucks. Now that people want high mileage GM has NOTHING TO OFFER. What makes you think that giving GM billions of dollars will change that? All it will do is support the workforce through Christmas. Any UAW worker with half a brain could see the coming doom. They had opportunities to get retrained. They could have saved while they were making the big bucks. It is not my fault they have 3 vehicle payments a boat and a house payment. That is the fault of the workers. Blame it on the CEOs, that is fine with me. They are partially responsible. If they were smart they socked some of those big bucks away for just such a time. I don't like to see people lose their jobs. One job or a million. It is devastating on an individual basis. My friend that just went down and got all his tools after 26 years as a Ford Mechanic. He is totally distraught. He cannot make the payment on his little mobile home. He did not have a fancy UAW contract as a mechanic. He got no severance like the Union guys. He will get unemployment for a few months then he will be on the street if he does not find another job. The UAW people that are working better be socking the money away. It may be a long haul until they have a fancy job like the one they have now. The smart ones are already out rounding up new jobs. Tedebear comes to mind.
THAT'S a loaded statement. Gettelfinger has already said they aren't going to give any more concessions. It looks like you and I are going to be the taxpayers cooperating, as the unions have given enough already!
It is an ENTRY level job. Get a few room mates. Live at home. Since when are we supposed to start at the top with a job that pays enough to buy a new car and a home? That is total bunk. Maybe after 5 to 10 years you save enough for a down payment on a home. That is the way reality works.
PS
Rocky,
I was 35 when I finally saved enough for a down payment on a little house. The interest rate was 16% because of the last Obama we had in the WH Jimmy Carter.
The Fed has handed out $2.1 TRILLION to banks so far. GM's little $68 billion is a drop in the ocean, especially when you consider all the mortgages that have yet to fail through 2009, and all the money the government has yet to hand out.
If GM files, it secures its future, and will be able to sell that Volt and Cruze from a thoroughly healthy, competitive company.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What does he know, really?
Regards,
OW
Hmmm, Rock isn't this what Wagoner and company did with the trucks / SUVs?
While most of us here don't want to see 3 million jobs to go (which would only happen if ALL the Big 3 went under, not just BK), we can't just sit back and allow the management (the company) to continue on in its current status quo state. Plus, GM is slashing jobs anyway, as is Chrysler and Ford; well except at the corporate level. Cutting your way to profitability has never worked (similar to that "make it up on volume" business model that doesn't work either). I listen to what Jim Kramer has to say...then do the opposite because that loud-mouth is more wrong than a chiffon dress in the rain.
The problem is many aren't seeing the truth and that is Wagoner and crew didn't have any type of contingency plans in place to weather any type of storm. They were just a repeat of past failures and incompetencies that is now hitting them hard in the belt. Pure arrogance. And to just give them billions and billions of dollars without a plan to use the money (other than thinking 2010 is going to be a great year)...that rope-a-dope only worked for Ali against Foreman. Their begging, eh asking for assistance, is too similar to AIG, another firm "too big to fail".
Who was the GM CEO when controlling interest in GMAC was sold? GMAC is not the only lender. Now we are getting back to proper lending practices. Loaning $30k to a 20 year old working at Wendy's is most times poor lending practice. Legitimate lending practices have to be put back in place if we are ever going to weather this storm.
This country and many of its corporations are lacking good management. The failures in the auto sector are just a bit bigger than Starbucks or Circuit City. I don't believe for a minute that 3 million jobs are on the line. Even if they were there are 10.1 million people out of work today. If GM dies and gives up their market share the others will jump in to build the cars that the 145 million working people will want to buy. That expansion will put some of those now out of work on the assembly lines at Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, VW, BMW, MB or Nissan.
put the 'puter on standby :shades:
Do you have any evidence of this?? Just making it up??
LOTSSS of execs are being pushed out the doors with early retirement and there is not some huge golden parachute you guys keep talking about. The unclassifieds have the same 20% and now 30% cutting targets. I guess Wagoner, Lutz and Fritz are still there but there is a bit more to the corporate level.
Why can't these divisions then with new owners pick new suppliers if they wish, hire old union workers or new union workers, and hire new management with Toyota-like manufatcuring,and hire new designers and such?"
Good idea maybe but these companies "brands" are not really as separable as we might think. I would bet the economies of scale needed to be viable are not there unless these brands stay together under one corporate structure. I doubt MS would be into running such an operation anyway. Costs are king and the overhead is tough to cover.
THE HOUSE OF PAIN!!! BOOOOOYAAAA!
Povich, Springer low class. I mainly watch tv for intellectuals such as Mathews and Olberman on MSNBC or Katie Curic News. Guess it was our local newcasts that used to have the no credit/bad credit commercials.
Question for GM is their advertising budget. They have had some good Cadillac commercials in years past just before Christmas. Will these be back? They have been showing a good CTS commercial with a woman driving it. Wonder if women professionals are buying more CTS than Lexi and pickup up share there.
Except that workers at the North American plants owned by Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai seem to be doing fine without the UAW.
rockylee: I'm offended as american that one of my fellow countrymen can sit up on their high horse and root for GM, to die !!! Such ignorance bothers me !!!
No, they realize that giving any government money to the current mangement and union is just like flushing it down the toilet.
GM is not viable in its present configuration. Government aid only delays the inevitable.
GM needs to shrink to the point where it is sized to service about 15 percent of the market. That means factory closures, the shuttering of several divisions and elimination of the associated dealers, along with a rewrite of the UAW contract. All of which mean job losses for both white-collar and blue-collar employees at GM, but there is no alternative if GM is to become a VIABLE company with a future, as opposed to American Leyland.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As I stated in the past, am so in the present, and will so in the future, just because these people "inherited" a load of you-know-what doesn't mean they have to continue to accept the load as status quo. Also, GM going into BK, not totally out of business, will not cause 2, 2.5, 3 million (I kept increasing the number because this number increased every other day by the journalists, which means by Friday we should be at ~3.5) to lose their jobs. The original number, as well as the current number, is based on if all three go out of business, and is a guesstimate. (hence the changing number). The point is, giving these guys monies, tax-payer monies, without real stipulations is just flushing it down the drain. Also, take into consideration that this is just to keep the doors open. It does not, repeat does not, guarantee that sales will just turn around and people will start buying their product.
You will still have those that won't by a GM:
-no matter how much you (or anyone else) cheerleader for them
-because they don't have the credit
-because they don't need to buy a vehicle
-because they are waiting either until this economic mess is over, which is looking more like 2011 every day that passes, (also to see if GM is going to be around)
-because they are looking for that killer deal, which most have been doing since 2003 ~ 2004 time frame or buying used because GM's residual values are terrible - whether real or not, you know, that whole perception more real than reality thing
Again '62, I'm not here to argue with you or anyone, but you don't work for them anymore nor deal with them from the supplier side, which my company does, as well as the previous company I worked for - really bad since this was in the "Ignacious Era" - as well as at the OEM level. The truth may hurt but it needs to be told. Those that are opposed to give GM, or any company, a bailout are so because of the years of bad management and decisions, and lack of plans for when the times got rough, and the lack of accountability. They just rode the good times and had the "we'll deal with the bad when it comes". Look at AIG, anyone with common sense would have told you that was going to happen, that they would piss away any money they got for a bailout. Myself, as well as others, don't want the same thing to happen with GM. It would be the same if the oil companies came to Congress asking for a bailout, or when the Credit Card companies come to Congress for a bailout, which is going to be soon. And I'm sorry, the UAW isn't the blame for everything. Management has to answer for mistakes, and just having a plan of "need to make it to 2010" isn't going to cut it.
All asked is where you heard that corporate level jobs are not being "slashed" at GM. Anybody can make up anything they want on the net. So where did you see that corporate jobs are not being cut?
Whatever could be wrong with their strategy them?
Hmm, let's think about this. Those damn foreigners who are giving their cars away stealing sales form GM! Keep those products out of our country so GM can heal itself.
Pesky neighbors, they are.
Regards,
OW
The inevitable will happen at the end of Spring 2009 and it will cost $25Billion to delay the show until then.
UAW, please prepare yourselves because the handwriting is on the walls...HELLO!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Heck, that might not be too far from the truth! I've heard rumors that Chrysler is already slashing 20% off the sticker prices of their '09 models. Who knows? GM might not be too far behind!
Regards,
OW
"Anybody can make up anything they want on the net"
You should know, and I'll just leave it at that.
Please don't play this game. Honestly, not trying to get into a shouting match or argument with you on this topic as that would do nothing but aggravate everyone here, so cut the arrogant games.
If Gm spent as much money developing cars (not SUVs and Pickups) for the US market as they did for the European and Asian market, they would still be King of the Hill and not in the position they are in now. They banked on pickups and SUVsas the future and took the US car market for granted. They assumed we would continue to buy American no matter what.
I want people to understand that I do not want to see folks lose their job but there is no way the government can bailout GM without some serious concessions (or Chrysler; Ford is at least selling assets and becoming leaner). And the ones that Wagoner suggested are not acceptable. GM's management needs to stop sititng around waiting for a government bailout and start instituting some real changes to keep this company alive. If December comes and there is no government check, what do you do then?
Not to worry, the Congress will approve the check next week. :mad:
Regards,
OW
Yes.
The cost structure (labor, pensions and health) are killing GM. The Japanese do not have these!
Wake up folks. The unions are killing GM, Ford and Chrysler.
p.s. GM is competitive. Many cars and trucks that are among the best of the best. Welcome to 2008.
That is an interesting perspective from a Canadian. We were led to believe that ALL Canadians belong to some Union and love their universal health care plan. Do you feel the same about the CAW as you do about the UAW?
But it looks like they will get a loan/bailout.
We will all pay for both GM and Ford making products that no one wants to buy.....
62' will get GM, on the right track !!! We should promote him to CEO
-Rocky
I don't expect to see hardly any Volts!
Yes, it seems GM, Ford and Chrysler will get the bailout money. I just wish that the media would stop calling it an auto industry bailout as it's really just those 3 that are in need.
And I hope that proposed tax incentive talked about yesterday to spur sales doesn't get into Frank's bailout plan, which I'm not looking forward to hearing / reading about.
I guess our definition of the Corporate level is different. My definition of Corporate level were the execs. I guess your def. is the top layer of the company?
Most know here that I am retired and have lots of connections and friends at GM at the highest and lowest levels. I get retirement and separation notices. Yes Wagoner/Lutz/Fritz/Harris are still there but below them there is lots of movement.
And I am certainly not trying to be arrogant. I just try and be factual and when a comment is made I believe is not true I will call it out and get clarity. As I said anybody can say anything here.
Wife just went to a retirement party for someone 2 steps below Harris. Again the executive level has the same percentage cuts as the non execs (30% now).
"Cost" is part of being competitive. It's all about what you get at what price - value.
p.s. GM is competitive. Many cars and trucks that are among the best of the best. Welcome to 2008.
However the ultimate measure of competitiveness is the consumers' choice. GM has continued to lose market-share, so in the consumers eyes they are not #1. Now GM might be competitive in the way that other team plays (they occassionally win) against the Harlem Globetrotters.
-Rocky
P.S. Anyone know a good place to look for new/used rims for a 2002 Pontiac Sunfire GT ??? Mom, doesn't want to spend a lot of money or need anything super fancy !!!
This is a good analogy: GM hasn't made a full-year profit since 2004, has continued to lose market share, and had not introduced fully competitive products (with obvious exceptions like the Malibu, CTS, C6 Corvette, Lambda quads, and full-size PUs). You can argue plausibly that this whole downfall was 30+ years in the making -- not that the current storm was a bolt from the blue that blindsided them. Sure, other companies are suffering, even Toyota and Honda, but both had the foresight to plan for such an eventuality. Toyota in particular is sitting on a huge pile of cash to ride this one out.
I can't see using taxpayer money to prop up GM and Ford unless a LOT of strings are attached similar to the Chrysler loan guarantees negotiated in 1979. Chrysler is now owned by a hedge fund which I understand has gobs of cash -- why can't this be tapped to save Chrysler? (We know the answer to the last one -- Cerberus was all about "strip and flip" in the first place.)
Ebay.
VOLT - Article in yesterday's WSJ by Holman Jenkins. He says:
- Tax subsidy already written into law with a $7500 handout for every buyer.
- Volt expected to lose money on each car if it is sold for $40K
- Needs to be recharged for 6 hours for 40 miles of gas free driving. 40 miles!!!!
- It will have a small gas engine on board to charge battery for trips over 40 miles.
For those drivers who stay within the 40 miles daily and recharge at night, the
gasoline on board will go stale.
Looks like we U.S. taxpayers are already comitted to shoring up GM with every $7500 handout.
If GM initially has to sell Volts at a loss as writer thinks, when will they break even. How long would taxpayers have to continue bailout payments?
Who on this board would buy a Volt over a much cheaper and more economical car such as a Prius, Civic hybrid, or even an ordinay Corola.
Another factor not mentioned by GM or the politicians is the possible strain on the U.S. powergrid if somehow the Volt and similar perhaps from Ford and Chrysler sell well. Is there sufficient capacity with power plants and the grids to recharge the Volts during a hot summer. Remember global warming predicted by Nobel guy Algore.
gasoline on board will go stale.
Get some Sta-Bil. Heck, for most of my daily driving, the Volt would be ideal. Heck, I could probably do away with most of my gasoline consumption with just such a vehicle. The Volt would probably take over for my Park Ave and I'd use my Cadillac DTS Performance for long trips.
I really can't imagine how anyone at these subsidized companies or companies and workers looking for subsidies can feel any Pride. Maybe no one knows what it means anymore? Or the $ corrupts everyones logic and morals.
I would buy the forthcoming Honda hybrid for $20K with no tax incentive, or their CRZ, before I'd buy a $40K Chevy Volt. Or I'd buy a 3 year old Impala for $5K.
As I am and will do the same.
While we may agree on some things, we are going to disagree on some as well, as with this bailout (some see it as help - I don't). That's my point, I'm not here to argue or to see who knows who and at which level. I'm here blogging just like everyone else, as an enthusiat - also past & current GM owner (won't be buying a new GM, maybe another old one) .
You can read more here: More Bailout Info
Yes, Cerberus was just looking to turn a fast buck and are now stuck. It wouldn't surprise me if GM got $10 ~ $12B from this secondary "loan", used the money to get Chrysler, bleed them dry, then be ready for 2010, all the while having Chrysler's bailout money. Not saying that's going to happen, but..
For $33k after rebate, I'd rather split the money into a new honda hybrid and a used miata (just joking about the miata part, it won't pass the warden)
That $7500 tax credit will be for ANY battery powered car with 16 KWH battery. Toyota lobby was able to convince Congress that all Plug-ins should be included. The Tax Credit will expire when 250,000 EVs are sold. SO China may get a lot of that if they can beat the rest to market with an EV that will pass EPA safety.