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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I personally think "content" laws might be passed sometime next year along with a revision to NAFTA and unfree trade. Do you feel the same ??? :confuse:

    I still believe what's good for General Motors, is good for america and fixing the currency manipulation and free trade will be part of Obama's agenda along with building a new generation of "green" vehicles !!! ;) Heard on the news today many think Obama, will invest some of that infrastructure money in "bullet trains" capable of speeds over 200 mph. I wished GM, would get back into the train building business to diversify it's portfolio !!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "........on the news today many think Obama, will invest some of that infrastructure money in "bullet trains" capable of speeds over 200 mph. I wished GM, would get back into the train building business to diversify it's portfolio !!! "

    Well, it would be a gamble, but I guess that r&d would have to be funded by the Gov't, regardless of who would build them. Maybe even if the Gov't would fund the purchase of intellectual property from companies abroad that already manufacture these trains, thereby allowing a company like GM to build them under licence.
  • dallasdude1dallasdude1 Member Posts: 1,151
    Replying to the front wheel/rear wheel superior/inferior
    There are plenty of variables, beyond the control of the average person and or which any reasonable person might want to get into. So this is the best article that explains pros and cons.

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/does-your-car-push.php
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Japan, is the leader in bullet train technology from what I read but the Germans, have some very capable and advanced bullet trains as well !!! :)

    The Guiness book of world records is 361 mph on magnets !!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Hey, it's been tough battling all these GM-bashers alone! Welcome back!

    image
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I still believe what's good for General Motors, is good for america and fixing the currency manipulation and free trade will be part of Obama's agenda along with building a new generation of "green" vehicles !!!

    Apparently, GM moving over the benefits package to Union responsibility and control will not come in sufficient time to help GM. Is the wage scale still too high? What about the duplicity, triplicity, etc of costs of having way too many brands/models.

    If Obama gives GM a billions package, what will they do with it? Just the same old stuff or would they do serious restructuring including jetison of some brands. GM should be required to give a believable/palpable restructuring plan to Obama and his Treasury Secretary before a U.S. check is cut to GM.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    No one needs to bash GM...they do fine on their own!

    I'm working with the U.S. Government to take over as C.E.O.

    The new company will be GMFACE

    General Manufacturers Fine American Cars of Excellence

    Here is my business plan, the simplified OW Approach:

    U.S. Government lends me $50B (the Taxpayers $$$) It is dispersed to each of the UAW members to buy out their severance in the new organization with only Chevy and Cadillac. Plants in the US would be considered to survive. Any off shore plant would transfer production into the US, preferably the Michigan area. Those plants would be first to survive.

    Fast way to downsize, help the staff get new work/fund training and force needed change extremely fast...at least we will know where the money goes instead of bleeding each day through a juggernaut of inefficient, mismanaged operations.

    Let's see, I calculate the $50B would buy out 500,000 staff at $100K each, including parts manufacturers. All Previous Executive Management are FIRED as a bargaining chip, INCLUDING THE UAW! UAW gets disbanded in 3 years. Since the company stays solvent at a greatly reduced rate, these numbers might be overly pesimistic.

    The new company would have less market share but operations would be completely changed to support the 2 divisions and platforms with a minimum of 20 MPG City. Dealer network would need to consolidate and would need to be a part of the bailout loan. I might need an additional $10B to help get that done in 1 year. No bonuses until cash is paid back and the company is meets industry-leading profitability.

    The loans would be payed back and ensure the Government makes a profit on an agreed time frame.

    Instant downsizing! See? it can be easy if you want it to be!

    Regards,
    OW
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    UAW gets disbanded in 3 years.

    Wishful, jokeful thinking :P

    Obama and Democrats in control. They want to encourage formation of more unions with a new law to allow worker sign-up cards rather than secret ballot elections. More and more unions will help ensure a Democrat dynasty in DC. UAW in the pocket of Dem politicians.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "Hey, it's been tough battling all these GM-bashers alone! Welcome back!"

    HEY!!!!! I too welcome Rocky back, but what am I and '62, swiss cheese???? ;)
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "Obama and Democrats in control. They want to encourage formation of more unions with a new law to allow worker sign-up cards rather than secret ballot elections. More and more unions will help ensure a Democrat dynasty in DC. UAW in the pocket of Dem politicians. "

    Let's assume for a minute this does happen. Then, lets assume that the majority of non-union auto assembly plants unionize. If the foreign companies had to honor the national UAW contract, does this not put the Big 3 on a more level "playing field"??? Won't we then see who manages a union workforce better??

    The fact remains that the foreign companies have a lot more to lose than do the Big 3 if this occurs.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The cost structure for US Auto needs to be drastically reduced which includes the UNION. If Unions continue to exist as they are today, the market will crush even the new entities that materialize next year. The balance of operations will need drastic restructuring

    Cash will run out soon so actions taken will be drastic and implemented very soon.

    From today's earnings release:

    Cash and Liquidity

    Cash, marketable securities, and readily-available assets of the Voluntary Employees' Beneficiary Association (VEBA) trust totaled $16.2 billion on September 30, 2008, down from $21.0 billion on June 30, 2008.

    The change in liquidity reflects negative adjusted operating cash flow of $6.9 billion in the third quarter 2008, driven by the industry-wide slowdown in vehicle demand and compounding credit crisis, especially in North America and Europe. During the quarter, GM drew the remaining $3.5 billion of its secured revolving credit facility and made $1.2 billion in payments to Delphi as required by agreements between the companies as part of Delphi's bankruptcy proceedings.

    GM expects adjusted operating cash flow in the fourth quarter to be much improved versus the third quarter, and more consistent with the first half of the year. Improvements in fourth quarter cash flow are largely driven by anticipated improvements in working capital in North America relating to sales allowances, and lower fourth quarter finished vehicle inventory in Europe.

    Improving its liquidity position remains a top priority for the company. In response to deteriorating market conditions, GM announced today that in addition to the $15 billion in liquidity initiatives it outlined in July 2008, it has identified $5 billion of incremental liquidity actions. Cumulatively, GM has announced actions aimed at improving liquidity by $20 billion through 2009. To date, $10 billion in internal operating actions have either already been completed or are on track for full execution by the end of 2009.

    Even if GM implements the planned operating actions that are substantially within its control, GM's estimated liquidity during the remainder of 2008 will approach the minimum amount necessary to operate its business. Looking into the first two quarters of 2009, even with its planned actions, the company's estimated liquidity will fall significantly short of that amount unless economic and automotive industry conditions significantly improve, it receives substantial proceeds from asset sales, takes more aggressive working capital initiatives, gains access to capital markets and other private sources of funding, receives government funding under one or more current or future programs, or some combination of the foregoing. The success of GM's plans necessarily depends on other factors, including global economic conditions and the level of automotive sales, particularly in the United States and Western Europe.


    Like I said, if you call this bashing, you are really very closed-minded. Change is accelerating to the point of no return this week, after 30 years of failed plans.

    Regards,
    OW
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    then the foreign companies will pull the plug on their transplants and move to canada or mexico, the cost and headaches of dealing with the union is greater than the currency flutuaction, extra transportation costs and lower labor skills (in mexico). you can then unionize all you want in an empty factory.

    I think you over estimate the influence of uaw in national politics, maybe in michigan or ohio. A national uaw contract? Dream on.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Both Canada and Mexico have auto unions. Both are facing the same problems as the UAW but they aren't entirely toothless in either country either. It can be especially difficult to fire employees in Mexico without cause for example. BajaInsider.

    “In a 2004 World Bank study that ranked nations on how easy it was to hire and fire employees, Mexico was not only in last place [as the hardest], but on a scale of one to 100 (one being easiest nation in which you can hire and fire employees and 100 being hardest) it received a score of 72 while the second hardest nation to hire and fire employees (India) scored a 48.” Another Day in Paradise
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Honestly '62, I'm not really buying that 2.5 million. The reason is everyone thinks that if one of these companies goes BK, they would immediately fire everyone employee and that every supplier / company that has ties to them will go under that day. That is simply not the case. While suppliers that are directly tied to the hip to these companies while suffer, those that are flexible and multiple clients will see a dip in, and may be able to pick up business as they'll have more capacity. It's all in your planning and company mantra. We were in that boat years ago, being tied to GM & to Ford in some components and we got burned rightful so, depending on one or two companies to bread our butter. We learned from that mistake and are now in a better position to survive. Yes, the next 1.5 years will be rough, but we are in a good position to survive the downturn.

    These guys caused a lot of their issues and instead of having a foresight to see bad times coming (they played the SUV game like the housing game) they kept betting the farm on one product line, and they got burned. A typical putting all their eggs in one basket, the false belief that there would always be a market for over-priced, over-weight gas hogs. And that the buying market would continue to rise, rise, rise or sustain 17M units per year. Eventually everyone would have a vehicle and wouldn't need a new one, what then?

    I don't know if you realize this but a lot of automotive parts, as well as the dies, molds and equipment that make the parts, aren't made here, they're imported. Heck, GM was doing it while you still worked there so am kind of puzzled with your comment.

    I don't want to see GM, Ford or Chrysler to go down, but it is what it is. With their cash burn, no real plan to reduce / stop it, I think GM's best option is file Chap. 11.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Both Canada and Mexico have auto unions. Both are facing the same problems as the UAW

    Remember watching B/W British movies years ago with Terry Thomas showing how unions thwarted management in factories there. Didn't Brtitish have a decent auto industry at one time? Anybody here old enough to remember if these movies had any basis in fact? Any evidence anywhere that unions (in any country) are helpful to auto industries?
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "then the foreign companies will pull the plug on their transplants and move to canada or mexico, the cost and headaches of dealing with the union is greater than the currency flutuaction, extra transportation costs and lower labor skills (in mexico). you can then unionize all you want in an empty factory."

    So, if they did this, or moved jobs back to their native countries, there would be no backlash against these companies as there is w/ the Big 3 for exporting jobs to Mexico of Japan or Korea??? Are you saying it's NOT OK for GM to import the Aveo at the expense of the jobs that could be here if it was built here, but it IS OK for Hyundai to send production of the Sonata BACK TO KOREA because they don't want to play w/ a union???

    As far as a "national contract", I was referring to the fact that the UAW chose GM as the main negotiation company, and this is what formed the basis for the agreements with the rest of the unionized auto industry. I would assume that if Hyundai went union for example, the UAW would want the same deal for them as the Big 3 give, as not to give the impression that it would favor one company over another. Everyone playing on a level field, so to speak.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...I don't think these foreign manufacturers should have ever been allowed to sell in this country. It's like introducing a foreign species into an ecosystem that couldn't handle it resulting in the destruction of all the native species and a good deal of the vegetation with it. I guess we'll have to live with these automotive equivalents of locusts that have devoured our industrial base and left vast wastelands of crime-infested rustbelt ghettoes.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Yeah, when we all could have been driving Vegas instead....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yes, those bums! They made cars that actually are good and someone let them sell them here! Damn those imports! GM had it made until the word got out!

    They are to blame for the financial crisis as well!!

    Now, we have to pay for another bailout just like Chrysler had back in the '70's.

    No wonder no country like the U.S.!

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...would literally leave me nothing to which I could look forward. I reminice about my past GM cars, enjoy my present day GM vehicles and look forward to a nice new Buick or Cadillac in the future. I don't really spend my disposable income on anything else but my cars. Without GM, I can have a fortune that would dwarf that of Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and Ted Turner combined and nothing on which I'd want to spend it.

    There is absolutely nothing I find desirable about any of the Asian offerings. I can't even consider them automobiles but mere "transportation capsules" with about as much soul as a Maytag washing machine. A Maytag or a Toyota may be a well-made appliance and reliable as tomorrow's sunrise, but they've got all the personality of a paper plate.

    The European offerings are the other extreme. They're like having a wild night in Vegas with a hot showgirl, but waking up the next morning with an extreme hangover in a trashed hotel room, an empty wallet, maxed-out credit cards, a painful new tattoo, an unusual rash you can't explain, and a new bride with an agenda all her own without any regard to your physical, emotional, or financial well-being.

    GM cars are a nice center-ground between these two extremes.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Sure, and just so we get the favor returned, we should have no rights to sell our product in any country except the US.

    Not the UK, not China and not GM's biggest market, Canada. Only in the US.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Your reasoning is acceptable, and your perception of imports is understandable, but only because your experiences have been 100% domestic. You've never owned anything but domestic, you're mind has already been made up.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    You forgot to mention how exponentially ugly those foreign transportation capsules are. I swear to God a vast percentage of people born in the last 50 years or so are figuratively blind! About the only Asian car that was anywhere near attractive was the original 240Z. Everything else was inspired by Toho Studio's sci-fi monsters, a half-used bar of Safeguard soap, or a mediocre rip-off of a European or American design.

    I feel as much rage as Charlton Heston at the end of the original "Planet of the Apes" when I look upon the ruins of the domestic automobile industry. :mad:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    But I get the sense that in some part you blame the buyers. I think you should put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the management of this company. I mean, it takes some real doing to destroy a company as large and prosperous as GM was in the 1950s. All the current economic conditions are doing is hastening a process that was already 90% complete anyway. If GM would just take it to the bankruptcy court tomorrow, there is a good chance you would have those wonderful GM cars to look forward to for many a decade yet. Instead, they seem intent on driving it right into the ground, until there will be no embers left in the fire to stoke up into the spark that will ignite the new, right-sized, post-crisis GM....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    It's too late for bankruptcy now. Reading between the lines a bit, GM will grind to a halt sometime in January for lack of cashflow to make payroll, pay the utilities, etc. GM's fate at this point is either Chapter 7 (kill the beast and auction off the carcass) or some sort of de facto nationalization (the same fate dragged out over a decade rather than a year).
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >how exponentially ugly those foreign transportation capsules

    image

    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...I feel like doing something evil then committing suicide so I can go to hell to find Roger Smith and thrash him for eternity for what he did to my beloved GM!
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    He's just the most conspicuous of the long string of men who have mismanaged GM over the last four decades.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...deserves the full wrath of the automotive gods in GM's past and present for that matter? The only other guys that come to mind are Thomas Murphy and Robert Stempel.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I am waiting in the wings for that very day, ready to take over the carcass and build real cars.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I know this is the fire in the storm but GM really needs the coming drastic changes to transform the sad state of affairs. Archaic business structure finally will unfold into a beautiful butterfly after this winter of discontent. Ditto the other two old fashioned companies.

    Regards,
    OW
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I feel like doing something evil then committing suicide so I can go to hell to find Roger Smith and thrash him for eternity for what he did to my beloved GM!

    Buck up. Keep stiff uppper lip. It's only a consumer product.

    GM will receive a transfusion from Obama/Reid/Pelosi. But, this is their last shot. They have got to get rid of too many brands and other stupid excesses with unions and bad philosophy to hang profits on gas guzzling models.

    The key to their survival is diminution of union influence in running day-to-day business matters. Of course, retiree benefits packages/promises hang over.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    You forgot to mention how exponentially ugly those foreign transportation capsules are. I swear to God a vast percentage of people born in the last 50 years or so are figuratively blind!

    I have owned many GM's as well as Japanese brand autos over the years including a white 71 Firebird Trans Am 455 HO. The best GM designs were in the 50's, 60's and some today with CTS, Malibu, Enclave, Acadia, Corvette (always). The esthetics of GM in 70's through early 2000 were atrocious.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    If the foreign invaders were as bad as the period Italian and French brands you show, the big 2.5 would have a lot less problems today.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    > of GM in 70's through early 2000

    ????? You're saying these cars are bad?

    image

    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    My dad has had each of those cars :)

    Honestly, though, the Cutlass Supreme with the big engine in it was a fun car. Flew up onramps like they were UNramps. :P
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    The 403 or the 455?

    I had a black on black '76. Chick magnet.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Sorry lemko, the politics forum took over most of my interest for the last couple of months.....I asked others how you were doing !!! Glad to be back...Thanks !!!

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Apparently, GM moving over the benefits package to Union responsibility and control will not come in sufficient time to help GM.

    You are indeed correct xrunner !!! With a record low of 12 million vehicles being sold here in the U.S. has damaged everyone including hurting both Toyota and Honda. Next years forcast is expected to be worse !!!

    Is the wage scale still too high? Are you being serious or sarcastic ??? :confuse: If you are being serious which you might be then one should note that the new hire employees which will be the majority by next year don't remotely make even close to the veterans you read about in the newspaper. Working for GM, isn't a good job anymore and from what I know well their is like 10,000 UAW employees looking for plants to transfer too because there plant is closing. That number is expected to rise due to a possible merger with Chrysler and scaled back production of certain makes and models !!! Most of the vets have taken one of the buy-out packages or if they have enough seniority will retire !!! No pension plan is available for the new hires and the wage scale is a two-tier type. :cry: :sick:

    What about the duplicity, triplicity, etc of costs of having way too many brands/models.

    I agree the badge engineering is a joke xrunner !! I was at my former employers dealership last week and checked out the Traverse. It's a decent automobile but my gawd it's a rebadged Acadia, but I like the Acadia, design better. They made plenty of this type of crossover thus why add one to Chevrolet ??? Why not make something more along the lines of the VUE for Chevrolet ??? I can see maybe rebadging one or two others but at least make them a lot different. The Enclave, looks different from the Acadia, but the Traverse, Arcadia, Outlook, look way to much a like !!! :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:

    FYI Lemko: My brother purchased a new 08' Impala, from my best friend. She hooked him up with a great deal. $26,565 sticker with GMS and rebates and dealer coupons he was able to get it for like $17,700 + TTL and just loves it. :)

    If Obama gives GM a billions package, what will they do with it? Just the same old stuff or would they do serious restructuring including jetison of some brands. GM should be required to give a believable/palpable restructuring plan to Obama and his Treasury Secretary before a U.S. check is cut to GM.

    I'm okay with that xrunner !!! Throwing money at something with no realistic plan will not solve the problem !!!

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I said and anyone else I missed !!!! Sorry, I didn't forget you two on purpose !!! To many posters !!! :P :P :P :P

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I guess OW, wants to make it illegal to forum or join a union in this country or is that just at GM ??? :surprise:

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I think organized labor will get Obama, to even up the playing field in currency and trade ;);););) With the Employee Freedom of Choice Act (EFCA) a bill I obviously strongly support (Why wouldn't I) the pendum might swing the working mans way for once !!! :)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    No it's going to be more like Obama, Levin, Stabenow, that are going to push for saving the Big 3 !!!

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081108/ap_on_bi_ge/financial_meltdown

    This along with prior high gas prices didn't help GM, any !!! :sick:

    -Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    That, and people like your brother buying cars for 1/3 off list. There is no way GM is pulling down $9,000 in profit on an Impala. :cry:
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    of GM in 70's through early 2000

    ????? You're saying these cars are bad?


    Those are OK, but not leading edge as were the GMs of the 50's, 60's. Would have to get a year-by-year picture book of GM mid 70's to early 2000's to make a long list of bad styling.

    Most recent poor design/esthetics - last gen Malibu, Pontiac Aztek, last GTO.

    From decades past, some poor designs - most all of the Pontiac Grand Ams and Bonnevilles for their body cladding parts, approx 1979 bustle back Seville, last gen of Firebirds and Camaros which got fat and bulbous looking, x cars, downsized Cads of the 80's, Cad Cavalier/Cimmaron, downsized Riv of the 80s', mid 90's bulbous and fat reincarnation of Impala, weird looking last gen of Riv in mid-nineties, bulbous Roadmaster of mid 90's, etc, etc, etc.

    Guess need to get that GM picture book from Borders covering 70's to present to make a complete list of styling disasters.

    GM is getting it right today with CTS, Malibu, Enclave, Acadia, etc.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I remember in the '60's, we used to laugh heartily at foreign cars!

    image

    Now we can't anymore!

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Is the wage scale still too high? Are you being serious or sarcastic ???

    According to your article on unemployment, I would say yes wages are still too high. If a new Impala is only worth $17,700 what is the guy that put it together worth? It looks to me like wages need to be cut by about 35% across the board to make the Big 3 competitive again. That goes all the way to the top management and down to the guy pushing a broom.

    About 10.1 million people were unemployed in October

    I think if you offered those people $14 per hour, the starting wage for UAW workers, the majority would jump at it. I think most would be happy for a $10 job right about now. It is supply and demand. A mechanic friend at a large Ford agency just got laid off. He has been there for 26 years. They went by seniority and laid off 8 mechanics. Sales were less than 20% of last year this time at his dealership.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    GM is getting it right today with CTS, Malibu, Enclave, Acadia, etc.

    They may be getting it much more right with looks, but their quality still SUCKS. Look at the reliability of these vehicles vs. even Ford's new cars. GM has a ways to go. Quit putting in cheap parts, man-up, and build good cars that will last.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The largest engine that was offered in the 70s in it was a 350 V8. Which was a vast improvement over the little V6s.

    It wasn't until my father bought his Park Avenue(same one pictured) with the supercharger in it that he had a car that was as fast around town. I still see that old Cutlass around Pasadena every so often. You can't miss it - it was repainted wrongly and came out bright bird egg blue.
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