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I read somewhere that they sold 1950 G8s in August, so theoretically that could put them at around 24-25K units per year if they keep up a similar pace. However, I think August might have been one of its best months so far, as that just put the total sales to just under 10,000 units YTD.
The zeta platform is not in production for North America yet. I could see GM using the Chrysler 300 platform instead, saving the cost of putting the zeta into production. However, I don't see this as a good reason to buy Chrysler.
When Mercedes acquired Chrysler I thought that they would make it into a North American Mercedes division. But that is not what happened.
I know, but it's still costs $$ to ship them here, and it's not like Australia is a low cost producer.
I think the MAP is dead along with the sales of GM. Again, greed breeds failure in the end. It takes some time but you always pay the piper for unbalanced decisions that favor one over the other.
Management vs. Union Management is the tail waging the dog as it gets run over by the truck called "Credit Crisis" at 130 MPH!!! Another unbalance.
All the competition needed to do was be fair and produce better products. Of course, they are far from perfect but they called the market better in a lot of categories.
Regards,
OW
The possibility this happens to GM is not far fetched by any stretch of the imagination...we will just need to wait until 2009.
Deal or NO DEAL?
Regards,
OW
The very new top-tier cars might have MAP - GT-R, GT500KR, Corvette ZR-1. Even a new '08 Viper can be bought at a good discount according to the listings on Autotrader. I went to the Pontiac website, put in my zipcode, and saw a $2,500 rebate on the G8.
Many GM dealers are on the verge of going under, and ALL are hurting - so I doubt they will turn away a sale that makes a nickel's worth of profit !
I'm talking about basically cannibalizing technology from Chrysler. The same goes for the Corvette and Viper. Both are iconic cars, but both never REALLY wowed the marketplace recently and are aging designs. Both groups working together, though, could certainly come up with a car to put some hurt on cars like Aston Martin. Looking back at the two companies, it's like seeing half of the puzzle pieces over here and the other half over there. GM could gain a lot technology-wise from this. And keep a lot from going to Toyota or Honda, which really REALLY want a large work truck to compete as well as a way into the large RWD sedan segment.
Remember, the sub-brands and divisions go with it like Mopar, vastly better EV technology(right now they're literally a decade behind Toyota), and goodies like the Hemi engine and off-road parts Let's face it - you rarely see a Chevy out doing serious rock crawling. It's almost always a Jeep, Toyota, or maybe an old 1970s era Chevy or Ford(in about that order as well, so it seems)
SUVs like the H2 and H3 are rightfully derided and are often found upside down or stuck on the trail. GM needs a real 4x4 division. Certainly they can't let Toyota get ahold of it.
While the unions and the management were focusing on each other, they failed to notice the competition lap them a few times. Rule #1 - the primary focus is not salaries and benes (union) or low cost parts (management). The primary mission is building the best product. The consumer knew that, but GM, Ford, and Chrysler forgot.
Amen!
Regards,
OW
Ford improves in Consumer Reports' dependability study; Scion gets top marks.
Scott Burgess / The Detroit News
Scion makes the most reliable vehicle today, according to Consumer Reports, and its best model is the subcompact xD.
Fuel-efficient vehicles and gas-electric hybrids were the big winners in the respected magazine's annual survey of the best and worst vehicles in reliability. Asian brands continued their dominance: the first 10 brands listed as the most reliable were either Japanese or Korean. Kia jumped 12 spots to No. 10 and Hyundai moved up five to No. 8.
Ford Motor Co. continued to show marked improvements in the 2008 Annual Car Reliability Survey, with the quality of its vehicles outpacing its Detroit rivals. Except for some trucks, all Ford products now rate average or better.
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Overall, high mileage cars are also some of the most reliable, David Champion, senior director of the magazine's auto test division, said at an Automotive Press Association luncheon in Detroit. Additionally, fears over hybrid technology seem unwarranted.
"A lot of people are worried about having trouble with hybrids, and we haven't seen that," Champion said. "They all have better reliability than their gasoline counterparts."
The comprehensive reliability list was compiled from 1.4 million surveys collected from magazine subscribers in April and June. Consumer Reports has 7 million subscribers.
Earning a red recommended check mark in Consumer Reports can make or break a new vehicle, said Aaron Bragman, an automotive analyst at Global Insight.
"Consumers value these surveys," he said. "They put a lot of stock in these findings."
Among European automakers, Mercedes Benz showed marked improvements overall. Six models earned recommendations; last year none did.
Ford 'getting better'
Ford's Lincoln and Mercury brands landed in the top 15 and General Motors Corp.'s Buick brand fell from 10 to 18.
Ford builds vehicles as reliable as the top Japanese carmakers, Champion said, and is continuing to slowly pull away from Detroit's other automakers.
"Ford is extremely close to Honda and Toyota in terms of quality and reliability," Champion said. "They're getting better, better, better, incrementally, which is what you want to see."
That's what Ford likes to hear.
"It certainly doesn't hurt us when David Champion comes out and makes these kinds of statements," said Bennie Fowler, Ford's group vice president for global quality.
Fowler attributed Ford's continued improvements to the automaker's leadership, dealers, United Auto Workers and suppliers.
GM, Chrysler stumble
Detroit's remaining carmakers have stumbled.
GM saw its three new large crossovers, the Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia and Buick Enclave, as well as the new Cadillac CTS, fall off Consumer Reports recommended list.
Only Chevrolet and Pontiac improved as brands over last year, Chevy, led by its high-scoring midsize Malibu, jumped five spots to 24th and Pontiac moved up two positions to 29th.
Chrysler continued to fall in the magazine's rankings. Champion called the company's new Chrysler Sebring convertible one of the worst vehicles tested and the brand was now ranked the third least reliable brand, ahead of Saturn and Land Rover.
Global Insight's Bragman said he was surprised to learn Consumer Reports dropped its recommendation of the CTS and large crossovers but applauded Ford's continued improvements.
"Ford is doing exactly what Toyota did," he said. "It can take a generation to change perceptions."
Toyota, which suffered an embarrassment last year when Consumer Reports removed three vehicles from its recommended list and took away the company's automatic reliability rating for new vehicles, said it was pleased to see that the magazine noted the company's improvements.
"We've addressed the issues and all three vehicles have improved in Consumer Reports," said Curt McAlliste
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081024/AUTO01/810240348/1148
Are you all speaking from experience
cheers
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The bottom line is what is right individually. When the individual is taken as a whole, the product line succeeds.
When some cylinders loose power....over 30 years...the markets clean it up quick.
Regards,
OW
Why? Because these are cars that have been proven reliable over many, many years and the brands are still with us. Updated as you said but still that basic concept lives on...great products and reliable. It's all in the business model.
1. Base your management decisions on a long-term philosophy, even at the expense of short-term goals
2. Create continuous process flow to bring problems to the surface
3. Use “pull” systems to avoid overproduction
4. Level out the workload
5. Build a culture of stopping to fix problems, to get quality right the first time
6. Standardized tasks are the foundation for continuous improvement and employee empowerment
7. Use visual control so no problems are hidden
8. Use only reliable, thoroughly tested technology that serves your people and processes
9. Grow leaders who thoroughly understand the work, live the philosophy, and teach it to others
10. Develop exceptional people and teams who follow your company’s philosophy
11. Respect your extended network of partners and suppliers by challenging them and helping them improve
12. Go and see for yourself to thoroughly understand the situation (genchi genbutsu)
13. Make decisions slowly by consensus, thoroughly considering all options; implement decisions rapidly
14. Become a learning organization through relentless reflection and continuous improvement
Regards,
OW
Towed the Wet Sprocket
What's really sad, is it seems not much has changed. When I had the trans replaced in my 2000 Suburban I got a very similar statement from the shop.
The advisor was surprisingly frank with his diagnosis. "We've had a rash of these lately...with the input housing busting as the mileage gets up there. It should be ready by end of day tomorrow." The forward sprag was replaced, the transmission again reconditioned and keys to the Silverado were back in our hands the next day.
And we wonder why GM is nearly bankrupt?
It's stuff like this that makes me thankful for the simple, reliable, cheap-to-rebuild THM350 that's in my '85 Silverado. It may not be as fuel efficient as a newer truck, but $1860 can buy a lot of gas! :surprise:
Oh, and ironically, the transmission shop had a similar-vintage Suburban in the shop at the same time...same tranny, same problem. The guy that owned the place said that Ford Explorers, GM trucks with the 4L60E, and Mopar minivans are what keeps him in business!
Because in a merger, the chosen few on both sides benefit. Clear enough? The result is a different auto company with the opportunity to start a new business model that meets the market demands.
Regards,
OW
My 2000 Suburban's transmission went south at 47k miles. It was no longer under warranty, so I got to spend $1800 getting it rebuilt. That was followed up by the a/c compressor failing at 65K miles costing me another $1200. Then a fuel pump $700 at 75k miles and it went on and on until I had enough and got rid of that POS. I have an 07 Expedition and so far it's fine. Hopefully it can at least make it close to 100k miles before falling apart. I want to buy domestic, but have little faith in their products based on all the problems I've had with them.
Last I checked GM is on the verge of bankruptcy, so maybe their problems are catching up with them.
Absolutely. No doubt about it!
Regards,
OW
Where did the 700R4 transmission fall into the mix? Now this could be wrong, but I heard that the 700R4 was loosely based on the THM350, and then the 4L60E replaced it, although may not have really been based on it.
Didn't the 4L80E sort of fill in for duties that the THM400 would have been used for?
Isn't the 700R4 the transmission used in cars like the 1991-96 Caprice? Is it a fairly durable unit?
The 4L80 was available in the heavy duty trucks (3/4 ton).
I downloaded the specs:
4L60: Maximum validated gross vehicle weight: 7400 lb (3357 kg) (application & axle ratio dependent)
6L80: Maximum Validated Weights: ( Target ) - GVW: 8600 lb ( 3901 kg ), GCVW: 14000 lb ( 6350 kg )
6L90: Maximum Validated Weights: ( Target ) - GVW: 15000 lb ( 6803 kg ), GCVW: 21000 lb ( 9525 kg )
The 6 speed transmissions are now the ones to get, but the 6L90 requires the 3/4 ton model. The 6L80 is rated to tow a moderate sized load (perhaps as much as 7000 lbs). I would say more than 2000 lbs with the 4L60 would probably stress it to the breaking point quickly.
Digging back to 2003 (as far back as the website goes), the Corvette then (2003) used the 4L60, so this transmission may be a newer design to replace the 700R4. In 2003 the 4L60 was also used in trucks, but was not rated for towing. However, the 2003 4L80 was rated to tow up to a combined weight (GCVW) of 21000 lbs.
Those people who are having trouble with their 4L60's and are towing only confirm my point that this transmission should not be used for towing.
The 700R4 is based on the THM 400, and the 4L80E is the electronically controlled version of that.
The fact that GM puts these POS transmissions in 1/2 ton trucks & SUVs with tow packages rated well over 7,000lbs and marketed that way in Boat and RV magazines should be grounds for false advertising.
Unfortunately I found this out the hard way. Fool me once, shame on you, I didn't give GM the opportunity to do so the second time around. If the 6 speed was offered in the Suburban when I was looking, I would have considered one, but no way I going to have another 4l60e trans to tow my boat and camper.
Actually the 200R4 is based on the flimsy THM200C! To GM's credit though, they got the bugs worked out of the 200R4 pretty quickly. It was troublesome for its first couple of years, but after that was a pretty durable transmission. There was a beefed-up version that went in cars like the Grand National and Monte Carlo Super Sport. I had two cars with that tranny...an '85 Buick LeSabre with a 307, and an '86 Monte Carlo with a 305. Both were in the family since new, and never gave a bit of trouble, other than the Buick going through a phase where it the lockup torque converter wouldn't want to unlock when you slowed down, and the car would start to shudder and buck. The LeSabre had 157,000 miles on it when we got rid of it, and the Monte had 192,000 on it when I got t-boned in it.
I had a car with a THM200C, as well...an '80 Malibu coupe with the 229 V-6. Mom bought it new, and gave it to me when she got the '86 Monte. It had about 100,000 miles on it when I sold it, and a year later, I ran into the people who bought it. It had 115,000 miles on it and they were loving it. Its tranny never gave any trouble. In those days though, we were in the habit of getting the transmission serviced every year, regardless of what the owner's manual said, so that might have had something to do with it.
Ironically, the only GM car I ever had that needed a transmission rebuild, had the THM350! It was an '82 Cutlass Supreme, which just had a 231 V-6, but they still put the bigger tranny behind it. It started shifting funny, holding the gears too long. The tranny shop said they could fix it for about $150, but couldn't guarantee that it would stay fixed. It had a lot of metal shavings that were clogging it up, and that was making it shift funny. Or, they said they could rebuild it for about $675. Well, I figured I'd have that car forever, so I opted to have it rebuilt. In the end, I shouldn't have, because about 9 months later, the engine crapped out! :sick: I don't really blame GM for that one though, as the car was 11 years old when I bought it. It only had 61,000 miles, but I only paid $800. It had been little-old-lady owned, but while they are often gentle on things, they're not always so good about maintaining them!
The really sad thing, is that my uncle's '97 Silverado has never towed a thing in its life, yet it still ate TWO of those transmissions! :sick:
At one point, my uncle was thinking about getting another truck. The construction company he was working for got bought out by a bigger company, and a lot of their equipment was getting sold off, cheap. Among the items were some Toyota Tundra pickups. He had thought about buying one, and giving me his '97 Silverado with the idea that I could get rid of the '85. Only problem is, I'm not really convinced his '97 is a better truck!
simpson gearset
The 200 series turbohydramatic was designed for compact cars, but was used in larger cars later on to reduce weight to improve the EPA fuel consumption numbers. This transmission did not last long in the larger vehicles.
GM's modern 4 speed transmissions are not simpson gearsets. The simpson gear set uses a common sun gear with two planetary gearsets to get a three speed transmisson. With two full planetary gearsets, one can get 4 speeds with one an overdrive (or not) without much fuss.
The newer six speed transmissions have three full planetary gearsets to get the six speeds that are used. One can probably get 8 speeds out of the three planetary gears with some thought on how each planetary gear is designed and combined with the others for each gear.
Heck, even when I depend on the thing for "daily driver" status, we're only talking 5 miles to work (and that's when I take the "long way", which I like to do, just to give the cars a bit more time to get warm). I've had the '85 Silverado for a little over 6 years now, and have only put about 19,000 miles on it. It's just under 128K right now, so it's not going to break any high-mileage records with my driving.
Inside Line says: Look for the classic truck-based sport-utility vehicle to completely vanish from the American landscape over the next 24 to 36 months. — Paul Lienert, Correspondent
Say Goodbye to the Truck-Based SUV
That's one way to ensure no more quality problems!
Regards,
OW
I cannot get into the GM site right now but in August GM sold about 80,000 large SUV's for a annual almost 1 MILLION trucks. That is 4 assembly plants. And this is when gas was over $4 and the economy was in a tailspin downwards.
Quality wise the GM large SUV's are in the top 3 for initial quality and 3 year reliability. I believe though the long term reliability is based on the old model so the new one will do even better.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008063
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008115
Then again the segment could take off if gas goes below $2 (almost there!!) and some people figure out they will not lose their job and feel it is OK to spend the money. But it could go in any direction.