Agree 100%. Many think that if the government just gives these people taxpayer money that they've learned their lesson and will do the right thing. Yeah, right. If they had done the right things in the first place they wouldn't need bailing out. Heck, even now the government has implemented AIG Bailout version 2.0, as AIG burned through $70-something billion in a matter of a month or two.
I don't want GM, Ford or Chrysler bailed out. And as you stated without a viable plan, which none have presented, it's throwing good money after bad.
"Please read my past posts as I have been quite vocal about cutting brands. "
That is what I thought. Sorry, cutting a few brands is not going to change the cost structure that much. What they have been doing has done so much more in cutting cost. Just a little too late.
There is cutting costs, which they have been doing, which is temporary. Then there is cutting brands, which changes the culture of your business. When is the last time Pontiac has been "driver's excitement". Will Buick ever become the domestic Lexus as Lutz predicts or can Cadillac accomplish this? When was Saturn "a different kind of car company"? Outside of the Astra, it looks exactly like Chevy. Imagine if GM could focus on just product development and marketing for Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC (truck and SUV division) and Buick (China). Not that would be a great company.
Unfortunately staying the course is not an option. And you are probably right that it's a little too late. I just can't see handing over money to the current management and expecting them to turn it around. If they don't get the money from the government, then what do you do? Bankruptcy and a company like above or like others have been predicting.
62vette, don't get me wrong, i would love to see them survive but not operating like they are now. The big 3 has been mismanaged for so long and have been focusing on satisfying their investors rather than building the best products. They are trying to do this now but it's going to take about another 5-7 years to complete revamping their lineup. They don't have that type of time or money. This is why i keep suggesting they need to get leaner. I don't know enough inside information to suggest anything else. they have already cut labor costs, cut retiree pensions, cut staff, cut production, cut advertising, cut bonuses, cut 401(k) matching, asked folks to take more vacation, etc. Now it's time to bit the bullet an look at cutting some of your iconic brands.
edited: 62vette: Are you a retired GM worker? If so, i would really like to read your opinion.
I can name a few very recent efforts that GM could've saved money on.
- How many Lambda utes do you need? Was the Traverse necessary?
- Did Saab really need to invest the time, the marketing, the engineering into the "Black" series (or whatever goofy lingo they want to call it) only to sell a total of 1500 copies? Does Saab need to exist at all? The brand is about as healthy as Isuzu was. Cutting them loose would save a lot of investment dollars IMO.
- How about the engineering it took to add V8 option to the Colorado and Canyon pickups? Why? They were beyond pathetic when they came out and with the hint of 4+ dollar gas, a V8 is the last thing I would've thought they needed to generate sales. How about instead, using that cake to start from scratch? How about NOT letting them wither on the vine for a 10 year life cycle? What a waste.
Even piddly little things like the little "GM" badges that go on every vehicle, those don't seem to have made much of an impact?
I would go after the US administration that allowed the merger to take place. Along with all the Oil company mergers during that time period. Those years produced a lot of potential problems. Enron comes to mind. We are paying the price now for much of those corporate shenanigans left unchecked.
Someone posted a market share chart. Chrysler is at about the same market share as they were 25 years ago.
"I would go after the US administration that allowed the merger to take place. Along with all the Oil company mergers during that time period. Those years produced a lot of potential problems."
You know, it's funny. I think that the last 25 years have been a dizzying roller coaster ride for the economy and the public as well.
In a simpler time (say, back when you became a phone guy :P ) people rolled out of high school and into the factories, worked hard for 45 years (or more), took their pensions, and lived out the rest of their lives quietly.
Then came the mid '80's. 55 became the new 65 (yes, retirement age), people had to go to college, then "find themselves" before they went to work, work for as few years as possible (25, 30???) then float down to Fla or Az. to retire for the next 30 or more years. THAT, more than anything stresses pension funds.
In a nutshell, for the last 25 years, we as individuals and as big companies have been trying to fund our lavish lifestyles with the market and credit instead of good old fashoned hard work ( even that has been hard to do, as it seems as though our jobs are constantly being threatened by the "world economy"). People seem to think that they are entitled to retire at 55, earn top dollar on their investments no matter what, and pay as little as possible for everything.
Personally, I think we should get the highest pay we can, pensions and fully paid health care, and gas under a buck a gallon , but with these things come the responsibility of not abusing the system, trying to take advantage of every little loophole to get ahead, even if it means stepping on your neighbors head.
Canada is already talking about helping GM, Ford and Chrysler. In the news today.
I support it. They have contributed billions of tax dollars here over the years. If they need some help, I am for it so long as it's fair and paid back. Workers need to contribute also, the unions and their ridged labor practices and wages are very much a contributor to the demise and high costs of manufacturing.
In the end, governments have no choice but to help. A collapse of banks, car companies and other large manufacturers can not be allowed or this little recession will become a depression very quickly. I am talking world wide!
If they need some help, I am for it so long as it's fair and paid back.
I don't think it will be paid back. I would look at it as money spent to keep the Big 3 afloat. Unlike the Chrysler loans in the early 1980s. Chrysler had a plan and put it to work with the money we loaned them. It was paid back in 4 years with interest. All I hear from GM is we will be broke in the next quarter without the bailout. That does not sound like a loan. It is a gift the same we are giving to all the loser banks that are going belly up. So if Canada has an extra $25 billion USD to give the Big 3 they need to get out the check book. Is it worth it to save 400,000 Canadian jobs? That is about a years wages for those workers. Better hold onto it as you may need to pay long term retirement and unemployment.
Ideally if the Detroit automakers were as heavily engineering dominated in the upper management ranks as German manufacturers are, I'd say they'd be in a lot better position than their present condition is. The ability of upper management to understand the fundamental aspects of product is important, ask why military hardware manufacturers or aircraft manufacturers in the US can still perform well in spite of everything.
After seeing the idiocy of the big banks spending the "bailout" money on buying other smaller firms out, I really, really NEED for there to be one major limitation on the money if we give it to GM and Ford.
Not one more job goes outside of the U.S. from the day they get that money. Build a plant if they have to, but taxpayer money shouldn't go past our borders. That defeats the entire purpose of trying to stimulate the economy. We're supposed to stimulate OUR economy, and not China's or Mexico's.
"ask why military hardware manufacturers or aircraft manufacturers in the US can still perform well in spite of everything. "
Perhaps because the government is paying the bills for the military hardware and they buy from only US concerns?
Notice also that Boeing is the last of US makers building commercial aircraft. Where is Douglas? McDonell?, General Dynamics? Hughes? All the commercial aircraft companies are combined into one, Boeing. And the only real competitor is a French based company. Supply and Demand and when there is only 2 suppliers and the demand is there you can charge what you need to.
Remember, the first $25 billion is meant more as a "grant" for improved technologies like battery storage systems, as an example. Somehow, I don't think that will get repaid. The second 25 however, I think will be a loan to get them through the tough times.
There are still some fishy things going on with this whole "GM in trouble" thing that don't make sense.
First, if GM is in such bad shape, why is 95% of the ad space here at Edmunds sponsered by them? I mean, it's been nothing but GM ads on here for at least the past year. Same goes for the other car sites I visit. Surely, they still have a large advertising budget?
Second, GM also just announced a new plant opening in Russia to the tune of 300 million dollars to pump out Cruzes and SUV's. Where is this money coming from?
Also, (This one irks me the most) why is it that now that GM is supposedly "in trouble", the fear mongering is rampant calling for a "total collapse of the American economy" or (Lemko's apocolypse :P come true) yet when the news of Chryslers eminent demise/sale/dismantling not even 1 month ago, the reactions were nothing more than
...meh, Chryslers done for, so what :confuse:
Are they just not that vital to the American economy as much as the General is? How come their demise would have next to zero effect while the loss of GM in this country would turn this place into a third world disaster area?
Same goes for Ford, whom over the years has had its own share of ups and downs yet, nobody is dreading it's demise and the effects it would have on the economy or the thousands of its employees?
Are both of these companies expendable?
Anyways, I'm not rooting for anybody to go out of business, and would like to see a bright future for the American automakers, even if it means doing the right thing and restructuring through BK but sometimes the priorities on this dilema can be downright baffling.
The bummer part is, GM is going to pinch pennies, and guess where they are going to use those pennies from? Yes, more than likely taking the quality they have on their cars, which is little, and saving money on parts.lol. Honestly, only a few cars they offer have definitive quality, the rest all feel like rentals.
Like I stated before, now is not the time to introduce a new car, they need a restructure first.
Chrysler is important but is such a small player (volume wise) that they would not have the impact GM would. Also the fact that it is owned by a Cererbus, an investment company which seems to have a lot of money, also probably takes some of the media off it.
The entire industry was caught by surprise 3 months ago by the credit issue. This came on suddenly. Even Toyota is very surprised at the loss in business and they may even make no money this coming year in the US.
So everyone was going forward with their business such as opening a plant in Russia where sales are going gonzo. One year ago inside GM everything was looking up. The UAW issue was evened out with the competitors, the health care issues were evening up, the quality was evened up and MPG was evened up.
But with sales suddenly in the dumper all the cash flow to pay the bills stopped. No credit is really killing the entire market. Even the $700 Billion is doing little because the companies that got it are sitting on it. I think it was a mistake to give it to them because they did not do anything with it as the were supposed to. Our wise congress jsut gave them free money with what looks like no strings attached.
So the bottom line is our entire industry, and our entire country was surprised by what happened. No one is buying anything. We are going into a world wide depression if it goes much further.
As far as the marketing, Marketers make media buys months in advance. Money is already spent.
Now Ford is in a better position because they "sold" all their assets (plants, buildings, etc.) a year ago for credit. They are now living on all that credit. GM still owns everything but in todays credit crunch they cannot get anything for them.
Which cars are rentals to you? Most all GMs vehicles are now competitive in both interior appearance and overall quality. I will again list the ones I feel that are not competitive and they are the old vehicles that need redoing.
G6, mid sized Pick ups
Everything else is at least competitive with the top players.
Remember, the first $25 billion is meant more as a "grant" for improved technologies like battery storage systems
Yes the first $25 billion was offered just as you say as part of the Energy bill. It did have specific ties. Refurbishing old plants in the USA & alternative technologies to be built in the USA. It was not specific for the Big 3. HonToy could also apply for money from that pool if they met the criteria.
The $50 billion is a bailout and I have not seen any mention of paying it back. Other than it may be considered part ownership. I would say the Big 3 bailout is not going to happen now that Obama has leaked details of his meeting with Bush. The Big 3 can lay everyone off over the holidays to try and keep enough cash flowing. If the UAW will not agree they can just file for chapter 11 and let the chips fall where they will. They have plenty of stock at the dealers to last several months. Maybe a lot longer. See what sells over Christmas and reopen the plants that are building what the people are buying. With the economy and the warnings I would think that most of the Big 3 employees would have saved enough to last 6 months without a paycheck. We are in for some hard times and 30% or 40% of nothing is still nothing. That is about where the Big 3 are sitting.
First, if GM is in such bad shape, why is 95% of the ad space here at Edmunds sponsored by them? I mean, it's been nothing but GM ads on here for at least the past year. Same goes for the other car sites I visit. Surely, they still have a large advertising budget?
Second, GM also just announced a new plant opening in Russia to the tune of 300 million dollars to pump out Cruzes and SUV's. Where is this money coming from?
Exactly. They are doing *GREAT* in Europe and Asia. It's the U.S. market and Faustian deals they made with the UAW decades ago that are sucking them dry.
That money? It's all going overseas to increase profits where they are currently making said profits unless there's some real teeth in the package. But I fear that instead, we'll be left holding the bill and wondering what happened as plants still keep closing and everything is moved overseas.
In simple terms - GM and Ford are most likely planning to use this money to close everything in the U.S. and more it all to Europe, Mexico, and China(or Russia). That 25 billion with no strings attached? Probably will be used to pay off the pension fund so that they can be free of everyone as they close the last plants in the U.S.
Man our leaders are such idiots. This happened with electronics and computers and now it's happening with our vehicles.
"..........The Big 3 can lay everyone off over the holidays to try and keep enough cash flowing. If the UAW will not agree they can just file for chapter 11 and let the chips fall where they will"
Do they really have that many days supply left????
Either way, they are between a rock and a hard place. I fear that a massive layoff, bankruptcy, or any such action will stifle sales, and sound a death knell.
But if somehow they could wrest 2% of GMAC from Cerebus........
If the UAW will not agree they can just file for chapter 11 and let the chips fall where they will. They have plenty of stock at the dealers to last several months.
But, who will buy the vehicles. Saw an interview given last week by Wagoner. He talked about a number of studies done on consumers about bankruptcy. He said that 80 percent of potential car buyers would not buy a car from a company that announced bankruptcy.
He said that 80 percent of potential car buyers would not buy a car from a company that announced bankruptcy.
That is encouraging. Only 20% of buyers are stupid. Or plan to get a car for half price and take their chances. I might give 50 cents on the dollar for a GM vehicle today. Knowing that I am on my own as far as service and repairs. How many dealerships are going to do warranty work if GM is in bankruptcy? They will be lucky to get rid of inventory. Rocky's brother bought an Impala, one of their better cars, for 35% off of MSRP. That dealer was tired of paying the flooring cost. Several big dealers are already in bankruptcy. $25 billion will only be a band-aid that prolongs the agony another few months.
The entire industry was caught by surprise 3 months ago by the credit issue.
Let's put this in terms of GM being a ship and the executives of GM being the officers.
The ship was in poor shape when the weather was good (economy growing), as it was sleaking water (losing money on daily operations and market-share declining). Now you're telling me the captain is surprised when the officers could see stormclouds gathering and a storm comes which is a normal occurrence (economic downturns occur every decade or 2). Yes it is bad storm, but the captain, officers and crew should have prepared for it. The consequences of bad leadership, planning, and execution are failure. They all need to go; we should not reward incompetence (or whatever you call it) and let it continue.
The ship was in poor shape when the weather was good (economy growing
GM sold control of their cash cow ,GMAC, when the credit was flowing fast and furious. Now that it is tight they are blaming Cerberus for holding back credit for losers wanting to buy a car. If you have good credit you can get a good car loan today. If you do not. You should not get a loan. Simple as that. If we had followed that time honored principle for the last 15 years we would not be in this mess.
If you have good credit you can get a good car loan today. If you do not. You should not get a loan. Simple as that. If we had followed that time honored principle for the last 15 years we would not be in this mess.
In years past, I would chuckle when seeing tv commercials for cars. They used to shout, "Bad credit, no credit, doesn't matter. Come on in today and you will drive out with the car of your choice." Have not seen these in a while.
In years past, I would chuckle when seeing tv commercials for cars. They used to shout, "Bad credit, no credit, doesn't matter. Come on in today and you will drive out with the car of your choice." Have not seen these in a while.
Actually our local Hyundai dealership runs these ads all the time on the radio. Supposedly they have access to $12m in credit.
"Let's put this in terms of GM being a ship and the executives of GM being the officers.
The ship was in poor shape when the weather was good (economy growing), as it was sleaking water (losing money on daily operations and market-share declining). Now you're telling me the captain is surprised when the officers could see stormclouds gathering and a storm comes which is a normal occurrence (economic downturns occur every decade or 2). Yes it is bad storm, but the captain, officers and crew should have prepared for it. The consequences of bad leadership, planning, and execution are failure. They all need to go; we should not reward incompetence (or whatever you call it) and let it continue. "
I wonder what you would think if you actually worked in one of the companies. The board essentially lvies by your creed, above. And so everytime an issue which is entrenched in 30 years of bad decisions comes to a head, they axe the "man in charge", who may have been there about 2 weeks. So now we have a bunch of short sighted CEO's who have to worry about next quarter rather than long term viability. It's this very shortsighted take on the world that has caused most of these problems in the first place. Take a look at that ship again and realize that i that it has the 50 megaton anchor of 50 years of bad decisions welded right to the bow. How is this years leadership going to turn that ship around in these times. Most everyone agrees they were turning for the better. The last person to blame is Wagoner. Blame the UAW and the crap designs and the beancounters. Don't blame the messenger.
- Who do we blame for the Fiat fiasco? - Or the failed launch of Cadillac in Europe? - Or the Saab 9-4 and 9-2x which were laughably off the mark when it came to expanding Saab? - Who was the idiots who completely missed the mark when you know gas prices are rising and yet you don't engineer a respectable car like the Corsa to meet US crash test standards, instead sticking us with a miserable POC Daewoo Aveo that itself doesn't even offer rear seat side airbags? - Who decided to move up the launch date of the GMT900's when the writing was on the wall that gas prices were on the rise? - Wasn't Hummer started under Wagoners reign? If that doesn't define "short-sighted thinking" I don't know what does... The punchline for that joke came a long time ago. - How much effort went in to the Zeta program? Only to see the project cancelled down the road and the only product we see out of it is a 30,000 unit Pontiac and a Retro muscle car that will probably last 2 years tops before the plug gets pulled.
I wonder what you would think if you actually worked in one of the companies.
I used to be an engineer who made materials for the Patriot missile. You move on.
they axe the "man in charge", who may have been there about 2 weeks.
Wagoner wasn't there just 2 weeks. I'm not earning several million $'s like he was, and surrounded by supposedly brilliant financial guys. Maybe he should have cut GM by 25%-50% of production jettisonning all the losing brands, when he took over. He did not make the correct decisions to get ahead of these issues, always reacting. Anyway the Captain or the President are responsible from Day 1.
Take a look at that ship again and realize that I that it has the 50 megaton anchor of 50 years of bad decisions welded right to the bow.
I can kind of agree. Wagoner may have taken over a ship that was doomed. He may not be responsible for the shape GM is in as it did take years of bad decisions and commitments to end up in this quandry. He voluntarily took the job, and since then he has been responsible - whether trying to plug the holes, or announcing "Abandon Ship".
How is this years leadership going to turn that ship around in these times.
I still don't understand why GM as a corporation - the corporate entity itself, not talking about the the plants and workers, has to survive. Why can't GM selloff the assets and divisions for whatever they get, to other corporations?
Why can't these divisions then with new owners pick new suppliers if they wish, hire old union workers or new union workers, and hire new management with Toyota-like manufatcuring,and hire new designers and such?
I wouldn't mind supporting a Chevy division owned and financed by GM, Buick might be owned by Microsoft, Pontiac could go to Boeing ... maybe each of these divisions is only worth a few million dollars. I'm sure a company like GE or Microsoft would gamble a few million to pickup the assets of a car company. Heck even people like Roger Penske or Bernie Ecclestein (or Stone?) from F1 would like a car company?
GM or Ford should be allowed to fail, and someone can come in and setup an efficient operation. The alternative - to continue to overpay GM employees for their inefficent system, for mostly mediocre products, under the FALSE threat that this would drag down the economy, or Detroit is ridiculous.
What you have is a bunch of people who make a lot of $ or have a lot invested in businesses, who will lose, lying to the public about the consequences. They have a lot to lose and are thus ttrying to make a case for us to continue their way of life.
I'm sorry I don't live as good as they have or do, and do not feel like I need to support them and this wasteful system indefinitely, thru my taxes! :mad: :mad:
Any of you who think GM and Ford need saving, let us know how much stock you're buying; or better yet get some bankers to give them a loan.
And so everytime an issue which is entrenched in 30 years of bad decisions comes to a head, they axe the "man in charge", who may have been there about 2 weeks.
Wagoner has been in charge in North America for FOURTEEN YEARS. See what I posed in another fourm:
He presided over the SUV boom. The G6 was going to be a savior and was mediocre. The Cobalt was going to replace the tarnished Cavalier and was mediocre. Hummer was expanded. He didn't focus on high quality small cars; he kept expanding SUVs. There was no high-fuel-cost contingency plan.
Lutz thought that hybrids were a joke until the Prius became wildly successful. GM could have led this technology with all of their profits in the late '90s and early 2000's. They decided to work on a retro HHR years after the PT Cruiser was successful. They decided to resurrect the Camaro years after the Mustang was successful. Meanwhile they pumped their dollars into inane advertising campaigns: "An American Revolution"; "Baseball, Hot Dogs, Apple Pie, and Chevrolet", "Born from Jets", "A Different Kind of Car Company". By the time they got religion the church bus was already arriving at the bingo parlor, and they weren't on it.
Even with a bloated structure and way too many divisions, they dabbled in more car companies. They lost billions on Fiat. They decided to acquire Saab. When it was apparent that the emperor had no clothes (i.e., competitive product for a changing market) they started heavy marketing of nearly useless E85 capabilities and of a plug-in hybrid that was 4-5 years from production. All vaporware to cover up the lack of competitive products. They offered the whole country discount pricing which killed their own residuals. Rick did a fairly decent job on the cost/operations side, cutting costs, and he made some efforts to put out new good products, particularly the CTS and the Malibu. But the large, strategic decisions - no leadership or vision at all. Put Steve Jobs in charge and you would see some bold decision making.
Amazing........... All you yahoo's out there rooting for GM and Ford's bankruptcy should listen to that 10 min audio. He only said it once, choosing instead to emphasize the 3 million job losses, but if GM files, banks can kiss goodbye $68 BILLION that GM has in debt. Think about it....... Even if the courts nullify UAW contracts, I would imagine they would still have to pay their salaries FIRST and foremost, as they put the cars together that would be sold to generate any revenue to pay any debt. I assume that the banks would be told to wait.....
Now, if GM closes it's doors, kiss that $68 Billion AND the jobs altogether. I can only imagine what Ford owes on top of this.
That's a new one to me. Get yourself so deeply in debt that it becomes impossible to fail?
They have to pay debts first. Figure out things would logically work and then do just the opposite. That's about how it works.
If you think bankruptcy works to take care of the folks most invested in it you need only look to Kmart. They declared bankruptcy, turned all Kmart stock into toilet paper and then the moment they were out of Chapter 11 bought Sears.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I find it hard to believe that GM is at the brink of brankruptcy,i know things are bad but come on! i think they are crying wolf just to get a hand out. remember ,the fundamentals of the economy are STRONG, and Americans are just a nation of whiners,bailout or not,GM will still be around.
Well, according to him, and the pundits GM's stock is already toilet paper. I would imagine that under normal circumstances GM would be able to refinance that debt, and stretch it out a little longer. But nobody can lend GM the money. If that figure is right that is 10% of the total bailout.
Most people do not realize how much of a disaster letting GM Ford and Chrysler die would be. It would be far far worse than anything the Taliban or Osama could do to the U.S.
As for advertising.. you can't sell cars with out it. People who don't understand need a lesson in marketing 101.
You may be right. GM has very strong car businesses over seas. Even here in Canada, GM is in far better shape, sales were only down around 6% last month and aren't that bad for 2008 so far.
The U.S. is a complete disaster though and it's mostly due to the credit crunch in my opinion. If you can't borrow anymore, how can you buy a car. Even the Japanese car makers are down 25-30%.
The fact that even Honda and Toyota are way down in sales is one of the better arguments for trying to save GM. Were it just a matter of GM's sales being in the tank it would be different.
I'm genuinely of a mixed mind here. It would undoubtedly be a disaster for GM to fail. I get that. The question is more can we prevent the failure by buying them time? I don't know the answer. They'll almost certainly get a bailout package so I guess we will see. The incoming president and both houses of Congress favor the bailout. They either have to convince the incumbent president or hang on for dear life for just over two months.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
GM has huge savings on the labor and benefit side that kick in for 2010, they just need to buy time. Further, the economy (if history is any indicator) should be better then and gas prices have already retreated.
No doubt GM has done a lot of stupid things in the past but in the last few years I have finally seen some decent products. I think they havethe best new product of any of the American makers and competitive with the best of the best.
I think if the unions co-operate, GM could be very viable. They have shown they can compete and succeed elsewhere. The perfect storm hit and spiking gas prices, a housing crisis and a credit crunch were not GM's making.
In a Nov. 10 interview with Automotive News Editor David Sedgwick, General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner addressed these questions: • What concessions would he offer in return for aid? • Can GM reduce its monthly cash burn?
New Wage and Benefit Structure for Entry-Level Employees
To keep work in UAW GM plants, and to create a realistic possibility of adding work for future growth, the proposed agreement establishes a new pay structure for entry-level employees. The new structure applies to what GM calls “non-core” jobs in all its facilities.
Examples of “non-core” jobs include, but are not limited to, material movement, general stores management, finished vehicle driving, paint mix room, chemical management and subassembly.
Workers hired in under the entry-level structure will have the opportunity for traditional UAW GM jobs as positions become available.
Entry-Level Wages The new entry-level wage structure applies to UAW-represented workers in non-core jobs hired on or after the effective date of the proposed agreement. Temporary employees who were on the rolls prior to the effective date, and are subsequently converted to permanent status, are not considered entry-level employees and will receive traditional wages.
The entry-level wage structure, which is modeled after the UAW-Delphi agreement, has two key elements:
• New wage rates for three classification groupings.
•A new wage formula that provides annual increases tied to either (a) the percentage increase in average hourly earnings, excluding overtime, of workers in the U.S. manufacturing sector or (b) the annual rate of inflation, whichever is greater. Increases will take effect in the first pay period of each calendar year.
In addition to annual wage formula increases, entry-level workers with seniority as of the designated eligibility date will receive performance bonuses in each year of the four-year agreement. An entry-level worker’s performance bonus will be equal to 3 percent of qualified earnings during the previous 52 pay periods. Performance bonuses will be paid in May 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011, based on April eligibility dates.
Group A (example: machining)
Starting Pay $ 14.61
Production Rate $16.23
Group B (example: subassembly)
Starting Pay $14.00
Production Rate $15.30
Group C (example: material handling)
Starting Pay $14.00
Production Rate $14.50
Entry-level workers are not eligible for pay for the Independence Day holiday week. Workers not scheduled to work during that period will have the option of using vacation hours or taking an unpaid leave of absence.
Entry-Level Benefits Entry-level workers will be covered by a separate benefit plan, including the following elements:
• A cash balance defined-benefit retirement plan: GM will deposit 6.4 percent of workers’ wages into a portable retirement plan, which will accrue interest tied to the 30-year U.S. Treasury bond.
• Health care plan: Entry-level workers will be covered by a health care plan, with annual in-network deductibles of $300 single/$600 family. Coinsurance will be 10 percent in-network, with an annual cap on out-of-pocket expenditures of $1,000 single/$2,000 family. To defray these costs, GM will reimburse workers up to $300 single/$600 family annually from a flexible health care spending account. Entry-level workers will be eligible for dental coverage and a vision exam after three years, and for full vision coverage after five years.
• Supplemental Unemployment Benefits: Entry-level workers with at least one but less than three years seniority will be eligible for 26 weeks of SUB. That increases to 52 weeks (which can be extended) for workers with three or more years seniority.
What do you want to cut and where ??? These guys can barely afford an apartment let alone a modest house and a car !!! These are the type of wages that globalization can provide us americans and what kills me many of you support the free-trade, globilization agenda's that will not only destroy GM, but one day might reach you in your ivory towers then it won't be such a great idea !!! I say with the hell with it and line up a guillotine and do some head cutting !!! Maybe if enough of these filthy CEO's and globalist got their heads chopped or were tried for treason then just maybe we could save america.
I'm offended as american that one of my fellow countrymen can sit up on their high horse and root for GM, to die !!! Such ignorance bothers me !!! Millions of jobs are on the line and it's like nobody could give a rats [non-permissible content removed] on who it might affect !!! I don't want some other paper pushin' pansy to take the reins at GM, because these empty suits look at 5-10 year short-term profits instead of growing a solid long-term strategy !!!! :mad: Vehicles like the Chevy Cruze, should of been out a few years ago. The Aura, could use a interior materials upgrade along with some new creature features. why not add something like the Microsoft sync system to the Aura ??? Give it some specific flavor instead of a one size fits all approach !!! That is the main problem when you don't have car guys running a company !!!! :sick:
Comments
That makes too much sense.
I don't want GM, Ford or Chrysler bailed out. And as you stated without a viable plan, which none have presented, it's throwing good money after bad.
That is what I thought. Sorry, cutting a few brands is not going to change the cost structure that much. What they have been doing has done so much more in cutting cost. Just a little too late.
Unfortunately staying the course is not an option. And you are probably right that it's a little too late. I just can't see handing over money to the current management and expecting them to turn it around. If they don't get the money from the government, then what do you do? Bankruptcy and a company like above or like others have been predicting.
62vette, don't get me wrong, i would love to see them survive but not operating like they are now. The big 3 has been mismanaged for so long and have been focusing on satisfying their investors rather than building the best products. They are trying to do this now but it's going to take about another 5-7 years to complete revamping their lineup. They don't have that type of time or money. This is why i keep suggesting they need to get leaner. I don't know enough inside information to suggest anything else. they have already cut labor costs, cut retiree pensions, cut staff, cut production, cut advertising, cut bonuses, cut 401(k) matching, asked folks to take more vacation, etc. Now it's time to bit the bullet an look at cutting some of your iconic brands.
edited: 62vette: Are you a retired GM worker? If so, i would really like to read your opinion.
- How many Lambda utes do you need? Was the Traverse necessary?
- Did Saab really need to invest the time, the marketing, the engineering into the "Black" series (or whatever goofy lingo they want to call it) only to sell a total of 1500 copies? Does Saab need to exist at all? The brand is about as healthy as Isuzu was. Cutting them loose would save a lot of investment dollars IMO.
- How about the engineering it took to add V8 option to the Colorado and Canyon pickups? Why? They were beyond pathetic when they came out and with the hint of 4+ dollar gas, a V8 is the last thing I would've thought they needed to generate sales. How about instead, using that cake to start from scratch? How about NOT letting them wither on the vine for a 10 year life cycle? What a waste.
Even piddly little things like the little "GM" badges that go on every vehicle, those don't seem to have made much of an impact?
I think that the US and Canadian governments should sue Daimler for 1/3 the cost, as they are responsible for Chrysler being the shambles that it is.
Someone posted a market share chart. Chrysler is at about the same market share as they were 25 years ago.
You know, it's funny. I think that the last 25 years have been a dizzying roller coaster ride for the economy and the public as well.
In a simpler time (say, back when you became a phone guy :P ) people rolled out of high school and into the factories, worked hard for 45 years (or more), took their pensions, and lived out the rest of their lives quietly.
Then came the mid '80's. 55 became the new 65 (yes, retirement age), people had to go to college, then "find themselves" before they went to work, work for as few years as possible (25, 30???) then float down to Fla or Az. to retire for the next 30 or more years. THAT, more than anything stresses pension funds.
In a nutshell, for the last 25 years, we as individuals and as big companies have been trying to fund our lavish lifestyles with the market and credit instead of good old fashoned hard work ( even that has been hard to do, as it seems as though our jobs are constantly being threatened by the "world economy"). People seem to think that they are entitled to retire at 55, earn top dollar on their investments no matter what, and pay as little as possible for everything.
Personally, I think we should get the highest pay we can, pensions and fully paid health care, and gas under a buck a gallon
I support it. They have contributed billions of tax dollars here over the years. If they need some help, I am for it so long as it's fair and paid back. Workers need to contribute also, the unions and their ridged labor practices and wages are very much a contributor to the demise and high costs of manufacturing.
In the end, governments have no choice but to help. A collapse of banks, car companies and other large manufacturers can not be allowed or this little recession will become a depression very quickly. I am talking world wide!
I don't think it will be paid back. I would look at it as money spent to keep the Big 3 afloat. Unlike the Chrysler loans in the early 1980s. Chrysler had a plan and put it to work with the money we loaned them. It was paid back in 4 years with interest. All I hear from GM is we will be broke in the next quarter without the bailout. That does not sound like a loan. It is a gift the same we are giving to all the loser banks that are going belly up. So if Canada has an extra $25 billion USD to give the Big 3 they need to get out the check book. Is it worth it to save 400,000 Canadian jobs? That is about a years wages for those workers. Better hold onto it as you may need to pay long term retirement and unemployment.
Not one more job goes outside of the U.S. from the day they get that money. Build a plant if they have to, but taxpayer money shouldn't go past our borders. That defeats the entire purpose of trying to stimulate the economy. We're supposed to stimulate OUR economy, and not China's or Mexico's.
Perhaps because the government is paying the bills for the military hardware and they buy from only US concerns?
Notice also that Boeing is the last of US makers building commercial aircraft. Where is Douglas? McDonell?, General Dynamics? Hughes? All the commercial aircraft companies are combined into one, Boeing. And the only real competitor is a French based company. Supply and Demand and when there is only 2 suppliers and the demand is there you can charge what you need to.
First, if GM is in such bad shape, why is 95% of the ad space here at Edmunds sponsered by them? I mean, it's been nothing but GM ads on here for at least the past year. Same goes for the other car sites I visit. Surely, they still have a large advertising budget?
Second, GM also just announced a new plant opening in Russia to the tune of 300 million dollars to pump out Cruzes and SUV's. Where is this money coming from?
Also, (This one irks me the most) why is it that now that GM is supposedly "in trouble", the fear mongering is rampant calling for a "total collapse of the American economy" or (Lemko's apocolypse :P come true) yet when the news of Chryslers eminent demise/sale/dismantling not even 1 month ago, the reactions were nothing more than
...meh, Chryslers done for, so what :confuse:
Are they just not that vital to the American economy as much as the General is? How come their demise would have next to zero effect while the loss of GM in this country would turn this place into a third world disaster area?
Same goes for Ford, whom over the years has had its own share of ups and downs yet, nobody is dreading it's demise and the effects it would have on the economy or the thousands of its employees?
Are both of these companies expendable?
Anyways, I'm not rooting for anybody to go out of business, and would like to see a bright future for the American automakers, even if it means doing the right thing and restructuring through BK but sometimes the priorities on this dilema can be downright baffling.
Like I stated before, now is not the time to introduce a new car, they need a restructure first.
The entire industry was caught by surprise 3 months ago by the credit issue. This came on suddenly. Even Toyota is very surprised at the loss in business and they may even make no money this coming year in the US.
So everyone was going forward with their business such as opening a plant in Russia where sales are going gonzo. One year ago inside GM everything was looking up. The UAW issue was evened out with the competitors, the health care issues were evening up, the quality was evened up and MPG was evened up.
But with sales suddenly in the dumper all the cash flow to pay the bills stopped. No credit is really killing the entire market. Even the $700 Billion is doing little because the companies that got it are sitting on it. I think it was a mistake to give it to them because they did not do anything with it as the were supposed to. Our wise congress jsut gave them free money with what looks like no strings attached.
So the bottom line is our entire industry, and our entire country was surprised by what happened. No one is buying anything. We are going into a world wide depression if it goes much further.
As far as the marketing, Marketers make media buys months in advance. Money is already spent.
Now Ford is in a better position because they "sold" all their assets (plants, buildings, etc.) a year ago for credit. They are now living on all that credit. GM still owns everything but in todays credit crunch they cannot get anything for them.
G6, mid sized Pick ups
Everything else is at least competitive with the top players.
Yes the first $25 billion was offered just as you say as part of the Energy bill. It did have specific ties. Refurbishing old plants in the USA & alternative technologies to be built in the USA. It was not specific for the Big 3. HonToy could also apply for money from that pool if they met the criteria.
The $50 billion is a bailout and I have not seen any mention of paying it back. Other than it may be considered part ownership. I would say the Big 3 bailout is not going to happen now that Obama has leaked details of his meeting with Bush. The Big 3 can lay everyone off over the holidays to try and keep enough cash flowing. If the UAW will not agree they can just file for chapter 11 and let the chips fall where they will. They have plenty of stock at the dealers to last several months. Maybe a lot longer. See what sells over Christmas and reopen the plants that are building what the people are buying. With the economy and the warnings I would think that most of the Big 3 employees would have saved enough to last 6 months without a paycheck. We are in for some hard times and 30% or 40% of nothing is still nothing. That is about where the Big 3 are sitting.
Second, GM also just announced a new plant opening in Russia to the tune of 300 million dollars to pump out Cruzes and SUV's. Where is this money coming from?
Exactly. They are doing *GREAT* in Europe and Asia. It's the U.S. market and Faustian deals they made with the UAW decades ago that are sucking them dry.
That money? It's all going overseas to increase profits where they are currently making said profits unless there's some real teeth in the package. But I fear that instead, we'll be left holding the bill and wondering what happened as plants still keep closing and everything is moved overseas.
In simple terms - GM and Ford are most likely planning to use this money to close everything in the U.S. and more it all to Europe, Mexico, and China(or Russia). That 25 billion with no strings attached? Probably will be used to pay off the pension fund so that they can be free of everyone as they close the last plants in the U.S.
Man our leaders are such idiots. This happened with electronics and computers and now it's happening with our vehicles.
Do they really have that many days supply left????
Either way, they are between a rock and a hard place. I fear that a massive layoff, bankruptcy, or any such action will stifle sales, and sound a death knell.
But if somehow they could wrest 2% of GMAC from Cerebus........
But, who will buy the vehicles. Saw an interview given last week by Wagoner. He talked about a number of studies done on consumers about bankruptcy. He said that 80 percent of potential car buyers would not buy a car from a company that announced bankruptcy.
That is encouraging. Only 20% of buyers are stupid. Or plan to get a car for half price and take their chances. I might give 50 cents on the dollar for a GM vehicle today. Knowing that I am on my own as far as service and repairs. How many dealerships are going to do warranty work if GM is in bankruptcy? They will be lucky to get rid of inventory. Rocky's brother bought an Impala, one of their better cars, for 35% off of MSRP. That dealer was tired of paying the flooring cost. Several big dealers are already in bankruptcy. $25 billion will only be a band-aid that prolongs the agony another few months.
Let's put this in terms of GM being a ship and the executives of GM being the officers.
The ship was in poor shape when the weather was good (economy growing), as it was sleaking water (losing money on daily operations and market-share declining). Now you're telling me the captain is surprised when the officers could see stormclouds gathering and a storm comes which is a normal occurrence (economic downturns occur every decade or 2). Yes it is bad storm, but the captain, officers and crew should have prepared for it. The consequences of bad leadership, planning, and execution are failure. They all need to go; we should not reward incompetence (or whatever you call it) and let it continue.
GM sold control of their cash cow ,GMAC, when the credit was flowing fast and furious. Now that it is tight they are blaming Cerberus for holding back credit for losers wanting to buy a car. If you have good credit you can get a good car loan today. If you do not. You should not get a loan. Simple as that. If we had followed that time honored principle for the last 15 years we would not be in this mess.
In years past, I would chuckle when seeing tv commercials for cars. They used to shout, "Bad credit, no credit, doesn't matter. Come on in today and you will drive out with the car of your choice." Have not seen these in a while.
Actually our local Hyundai dealership runs these ads all the time on the radio. Supposedly they have access to $12m in credit.
That GM ship is looking for a safe harbor in the US Taxpayer.
The ship was in poor shape when the weather was good (economy growing), as it was sleaking water (losing money on daily operations and market-share declining). Now you're telling me the captain is surprised when the officers could see stormclouds gathering and a storm comes which is a normal occurrence (economic downturns occur every decade or 2). Yes it is bad storm, but the captain, officers and crew should have prepared for it. The consequences of bad leadership, planning, and execution are failure. They all need to go; we should not reward incompetence (or whatever you call it) and let it continue. "
I wonder what you would think if you actually worked in one of the companies. The board essentially lvies by your creed, above. And so everytime an issue which is entrenched in 30 years of bad decisions comes to a head, they axe the "man in charge", who may have been there about 2 weeks. So now we have a bunch of short sighted CEO's who have to worry about next quarter rather than long term viability. It's this very shortsighted take on the world that has caused most of these problems in the first place. Take a look at that ship again and realize that i that it has the 50 megaton anchor of 50 years of bad decisions welded right to the bow. How is this years leadership going to turn that ship around in these times. Most everyone agrees they were turning for the better. The last person to blame is Wagoner. Blame the UAW and the crap designs and the beancounters. Don't blame the messenger.
- Or the failed launch of Cadillac in Europe?
- Or the Saab 9-4 and 9-2x which were laughably off the mark when it came to expanding Saab?
- Who was the idiots who completely missed the mark when you know gas prices are rising and yet you don't engineer a respectable car like the Corsa to meet US crash test standards, instead sticking us with a miserable POC Daewoo Aveo that itself doesn't even offer rear seat side airbags?
- Who decided to move up the launch date of the GMT900's when the writing was on the wall that gas prices were on the rise?
- Wasn't Hummer started under Wagoners reign? If that doesn't define "short-sighted thinking" I don't know what does... The punchline for that joke came a long time ago.
- How much effort went in to the Zeta program? Only to see the project cancelled down the road and the only product we see out of it is a 30,000 unit Pontiac and a Retro muscle car that will probably last 2 years tops before the plug gets pulled.
Buy a new gm car today and save your country
I used to be an engineer who made materials for the Patriot missile. You move on.
they axe the "man in charge", who may have been there about 2 weeks.
Wagoner wasn't there just 2 weeks. I'm not earning several million $'s like he was, and surrounded by supposedly brilliant financial guys. Maybe he should have cut GM by 25%-50% of production jettisonning all the losing brands, when he took over. He did not make the correct decisions to get ahead of these issues, always reacting.
Anyway the Captain or the President are responsible from Day 1.
Take a look at that ship again and realize that I that it has the 50 megaton anchor of 50 years of bad decisions welded right to the bow.
I can kind of agree. Wagoner may have taken over a ship that was doomed. He may not be responsible for the shape GM is in as it did take years of bad decisions and commitments to end up in this quandry. He voluntarily took the job, and since then he has been responsible - whether trying to plug the holes, or announcing "Abandon Ship".
How is this years leadership going to turn that ship around in these times.
I still don't understand why GM as a corporation - the corporate entity itself, not talking about the the plants and workers, has to survive. Why can't GM selloff the assets and divisions for whatever they get, to other corporations?
Why can't these divisions then with new owners pick new suppliers if they wish, hire old union workers or new union workers, and hire new management with Toyota-like manufatcuring,and hire new designers and such?
I wouldn't mind supporting a Chevy division owned and financed by GM, Buick might be owned by Microsoft, Pontiac could go to Boeing ... maybe each of these divisions is only worth a few million dollars. I'm sure a company like GE or Microsoft would gamble a few million to pickup the assets of a car company. Heck even people like Roger Penske or Bernie Ecclestein (or Stone?) from F1 would like a car company?
GM or Ford should be allowed to fail, and someone can come in and setup an efficient operation. The alternative - to continue to overpay GM employees for their inefficent system, for mostly mediocre products, under the FALSE threat that this would drag down the economy, or Detroit is ridiculous.
What you have is a bunch of people who make a lot of $ or have a lot invested in businesses, who will lose, lying to the public about the consequences. They have a lot to lose and are thus ttrying to make a case for us to continue their way of life.
I'm sorry I don't live as good as they have or do, and do not feel like I need to support them and this wasteful system indefinitely, thru my taxes! :mad: :mad:
Any of you who think GM and Ford need saving, let us know how much stock you're buying; or better yet get some bankers to give them a loan.
Union says they won't give any more concessions.
Wagoner says he doesn't know "what purpose it would serve" to change GM's upper management as part of a bail out.
Perhaps we should just let these losers fail.
Wagoner has been in charge in North America for FOURTEEN YEARS. See what I posed in another fourm:
He presided over the SUV boom. The G6 was going to be a savior and was mediocre. The Cobalt was going to replace the tarnished Cavalier and was mediocre. Hummer was expanded. He didn't focus on high quality small cars; he kept expanding SUVs. There was no high-fuel-cost contingency plan.
Lutz thought that hybrids were a joke until the Prius became wildly successful. GM could have led this technology with all of their profits in the late '90s and early 2000's. They decided to work on a retro HHR years after the PT Cruiser was successful. They decided to resurrect the Camaro years after the Mustang was successful. Meanwhile they pumped their dollars into inane advertising campaigns: "An American Revolution"; "Baseball, Hot Dogs, Apple Pie, and Chevrolet", "Born from Jets", "A Different Kind of Car Company". By the time they got religion the church bus was already arriving at the bingo parlor, and they weren't on it.
Even with a bloated structure and way too many divisions, they dabbled in more car companies. They lost billions on Fiat. They decided to acquire Saab. When it was apparent that the emperor had no clothes (i.e., competitive product for a changing market) they started heavy marketing of nearly useless E85 capabilities and of a plug-in hybrid that was 4-5 years from production. All vaporware to cover up the lack of competitive products. They offered the whole country discount pricing which killed their own residuals. Rick did a fairly decent job on the cost/operations side, cutting costs, and he made some efforts to put out new good products, particularly the CTS and the Malibu. But the large, strategic decisions - no leadership or vision at all. Put Steve Jobs in charge and you would see some bold decision making.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/27647852
Now, if GM closes it's doors, kiss that $68 Billion AND the jobs altogether. I can only imagine what Ford owes on top of this.
They have to pay debts first. Figure out things would logically work and then do just the opposite. That's about how it works.
If you think bankruptcy works to take care of the folks most invested in it you need only look to Kmart. They declared bankruptcy, turned all Kmart stock into toilet paper and then the moment they were out of Chapter 11 bought Sears.
Who are you, Mitt Romney????
Most people do not realize how much of a disaster letting GM Ford and Chrysler die would be. It would be far far worse than anything the Taliban or Osama could do to the U.S.
As for advertising.. you can't sell cars with out it. People who don't understand need a lesson in marketing 101.
There's an old saw - borrow a little and you owe your soul to the bank. Borrow a lot and you own the bank.
The U.S. is a complete disaster though and it's mostly due to the credit crunch in my opinion. If you can't borrow anymore, how can you buy a car. Even the Japanese car makers are down 25-30%.
I'm genuinely of a mixed mind here. It would undoubtedly be a disaster for GM to fail. I get that. The question is more can we prevent the failure by buying them time? I don't know the answer. They'll almost certainly get a bailout package so I guess we will see. The incoming president and both houses of Congress favor the bailout. They either have to convince the incumbent president or hang on for dear life for just over two months.
No doubt GM has done a lot of stupid things in the past but in the last few years I have finally seen some decent products. I think they havethe best new product of any of the American makers and competitive with the best of the best.
I think if the unions co-operate, GM could be very viable. They have shown they can compete and succeed elsewhere. The perfect storm hit and spiking gas prices, a housing crisis and a credit crunch were not GM's making.
In a Nov. 10 interview with Automotive News Editor David Sedgwick, General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner addressed these questions:
• What concessions would he offer in return for aid?
• Can GM reduce its monthly cash burn?
http://www.autonews.com/
To keep work in UAW GM plants, and to create a realistic possibility of adding work for future growth, the proposed agreement establishes a new pay structure for entry-level employees. The new structure applies to what GM calls “non-core” jobs in all its facilities.
Examples of “non-core” jobs include, but are not limited to, material movement, general stores management, finished vehicle driving, paint mix room, chemical management and subassembly.
Workers hired in under the entry-level structure will have the opportunity for traditional UAW GM jobs as positions become available.
Entry-Level Wages
The new entry-level wage structure applies to UAW-represented workers in non-core jobs hired on or after the effective date of the proposed agreement. Temporary employees who were on the rolls prior to the effective date, and are subsequently converted to permanent status, are not considered entry-level employees and will receive traditional wages.
The entry-level wage structure, which is modeled after the UAW-Delphi agreement, has two key elements:
• New wage rates for three classification groupings.
•A new wage formula that provides annual increases tied to either (a) the percentage increase in average hourly earnings, excluding overtime, of workers in the U.S. manufacturing sector or (b) the annual rate of inflation, whichever is greater. Increases will take effect in the first pay period of each calendar year.
In addition to annual wage formula increases, entry-level workers with seniority as of the designated eligibility date will receive performance bonuses in each year of the four-year agreement. An entry-level worker’s performance bonus will be equal to 3 percent of qualified earnings during the previous 52 pay periods. Performance bonuses will be paid in May 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011, based on April eligibility dates.
Group A
(example:
machining)
Starting Pay
$ 14.61
Production Rate
$16.23
Group B
(example:
subassembly)
Starting Pay
$14.00
Production Rate
$15.30
Group C
(example:
material handling)
Starting Pay
$14.00
Production Rate
$14.50
Entry-level workers are not eligible for pay for the Independence Day holiday week. Workers not scheduled to work during that period will have the option of using vacation hours or taking an unpaid leave of absence.
Entry-Level Benefits
Entry-level workers will be covered by a separate benefit plan, including the following elements:
• A cash balance defined-benefit retirement plan: GM will deposit 6.4 percent of workers’ wages into a portable retirement plan, which will accrue interest tied to the 30-year U.S. Treasury bond.
• Health care plan: Entry-level workers will be covered by a health care plan, with annual in-network deductibles of $300 single/$600 family. Coinsurance will be 10 percent in-network, with an annual cap on out-of-pocket expenditures of $1,000 single/$2,000 family. To defray these costs, GM will reimburse workers up to $300 single/$600 family annually from a flexible health care spending account. Entry-level workers will be eligible for dental coverage and a vision exam after three years, and for full vision coverage after five years.
• Supplemental Unemployment Benefits: Entry-level workers with at least one but less than three years seniority will be eligible for 26 weeks of SUB. That increases to 52 weeks (which can be extended) for workers with three or more years seniority.
-Rocky
I'm offended as american that one of my fellow countrymen can sit up on their high horse and root for GM, to die !!! Such ignorance bothers me !!! Millions of jobs are on the line and it's like nobody could give a rats [non-permissible content removed] on who it might affect !!! I don't want some other paper pushin' pansy to take the reins at GM, because these empty suits look at 5-10 year short-term profits instead of growing a solid long-term strategy !!!! :mad: Vehicles like the Chevy Cruze, should of been out a few years ago. The Aura, could use a interior materials upgrade along with some new creature features. why not add something like the Microsoft sync system to the Aura ??? Give it some specific flavor instead of a one size fits all approach !!! That is the main problem when you don't have car guys running a company !!!! :sick:
-Rocky