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GM wants GM to succeed. The Government wants GM to succeed so they can get their money back. Obama wants GM to succeed so he an put a feather in his cap for "Saving Detroilet".
The rest (taxpayers) of us are along for the ride, most of us, unwillingly... :sick:
For example, lets say you and I sell apples for income, and we both get the same apples (I'm implying that the quality of Big-3 products is now equal to all others, and some may disagree... For the sake of argument, let's just agree that they're equal) and each sell them for $0.25/each.
Now, because you are perhaps better at negotiating price you can buy your apples for $0.10/each, and I can buy mine for $0.20/each. You'll make more money, but we can both survive. You'll just have a better net income.
On the other hand, if I'm paying $0.25 per apple (or more), I can't sell my way to prosperity nor profit. I'm not anti-union, but I know a failing business model when I see one. A bigger truck isn't going to solve my problem.
Add to that, if for some reason your apples are perceived to be better than mine, you can demand a higher price, or I'll have to accept a lower one.
One can certainly make a great argument that foreign carmakers have had a "leg up" in recent times, but as they move more and more manufacturing operations to the US (as Hyundai, for example has been doing), that "envisioned advantage" of currency manipulation begins to vanish. Theres no financial question about it... Even if foreign carmakers totally make 100% of the car in the US, they still have a cost advantage due to non-union issues.
Until an acceptable resolution to that long term issue is found, we are just throwing money at a swimmer that's doing slightly better than treading water, while everyone else in the pool is swimming laps around him.
Throwing $$$ alone at a problem is not a sustainable solution...
I just cannot believe some would suggest giving more money to these clowns when pisspoor decisions and deals like that are going down so soon after the bailouts took place... Talk about a smack in the face. :sick:
PRODUCT: The new Malibu launched into a critical market segment appears to be an also ran right out of the gate. The Cruze has been hyped, but its quality doesn't look so hot. We liked an Acadia we rented. After looking into it we found the car appears troublesome and made the CR Avoid list. There were a lot of isues initially (07/08 models). But looking at blogs and reliability reviews it appears many of those issues still exist on later models. I don't understand that. Apparently, GM either can't fix the issues right, or doesn't care.
INVESTMENT: Dumping money into Peugeot, an also ran in a poor geographic market. Spending substantial money in China while China seems to demand an increasing amount of knowledge and data for them to continue their partnership. How much you want to bet that when China has robbed them of everything they need, GM will be dumped and out of luck (just like GM's investors).
I supported the bailout and was optimistic of initial GM moves. But in my opinion GM management is failing. There are a number of new or expanding transplants here since the bailout and BK. A GM failure shouldn't be as significant today as back then. Personally, I've now changed my mind and can't see any more investment or bailout into GM unless something new and very big comes to light.
How is it... In today's financial markets, with record low borrowing costs (if interest rates were any lower, you'd be paying banks to keep your money in CDs), and where billions were invested chasing questionable profits/returns in companies like Facebook (an untested and highly uncertain business plan that openly announced is was having growth issues before the IPO), investors are still, how can I put this delicately... Extremely reluctant... to invest in certain companies in a market with a 100 year old history? Even after government intervention that erased a sizable portion of the liabilities-side indebtedness?
Folks say the unions and management can never agree on anything, but that's not true... They both are perfectly willing and happy to stick it to the US taxpayer, letting the taxpayer fall onto the sword.
I truly sympathize with older GM workers that face broken promises. In my life, I've made many investments, both in effort and dollars, that never paid off "as promised".
Difference is, I never went to the government and asked it to make good on those losses.
A cop friend of mine once told me that when he got called to resolve disputes between irate neighbors, his first question to both parties was "who's going to be the adult here?"
That's also my question to GM and the unions... Whs going to be the adult?
I can't. So many of them were overpaid for the work that they did. They raped the car companies and the consumers with their shutdowns threatened in negotiations with whichever car company was having the best financial results. Then that settlement got applied to the other two with little moderation.
These workers didn't get a pay cut in the recent bankruptcy of any amount. It's the new, younger workers who took it on the chin. INstead, the old folks still have the promises of wonderful healthcare and huge retirement pay along with their social security from the government and their medicare as they hit 65. We should all be so lucky.
On the other hand, the CEOs and management of GM got rewarded royally. They have started to plan for better car placement and better vehicles now. But many people don't let anything go uncriticized compared to whatever benchmark they can pretend for whatever facet they want to criticize. It's fun to watch the egos at work.
The only solution is to pour more money into making GM more successful here at home. All the critics must be proud of what they have brought about.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't understand that. Apparently, GM either can't fix the issues right, or doesn't care.
I believe GM has literally shifted gears with their entire operations. And in the quest to become "global" (something which they have been criticized for by both the media and in public forums), I think they made a lot of sacrifices here at home. Look at all the effort to launch new products in China and Korea so they could maintain their foothold in those markets. What does the US get? those very same vehicles, shipped (relocated) back here, rebadged as Buicks and Chevys. In the case of the Snuze, it was on the market for 2 years before coming to the US!
But heck, we're probably both right... They probably also decided the US market wasn't a priority because wth, they'll just expect the government will be right there to bail them out again if they fail so why worry?
Spending substantial money in China while China seems to demand an increasing amount of knowledge and data for them to continue their partnership. How much you want to bet that when China has robbed them of everything they need, GM will be dumped and out of luck
So true, so true. All we need to look at is the recent transaction by GM to buy back that 1% stake from SAIC so that they were no longer controlling partners. Where did that money come from? lol, the answer: certainly not the people of China...
Truthfully, I would not be surprised in the least if GM was being lured into China and will eventually be under Chinese ownership in the next decade. Everything outside of their big trucks is being developed, designed and tested overseas now. Buick Lacrosse, Regal, Cimmarano, Encore, Chevy Cruze, Sonic, Spark...
Heck, even the new Colorado small pickup (yup, one of the Murican pick-em-ups) made it's debut in Bankock, Thailand last year! And even then, it was up in the air whether or not the thing would even make it to the states!
What about the U.S.?
“We are not naming any specific markets outside of Thailand at this time, but we can say that this truck will be sold in several global markets,” said Albano. “It will be the first truly global truck offering by GM. I can say, aside from Thailand we have plans to sell the truck in other key [Southeast Asian] markets like Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines.”
That's just crazy when you think about it.
There are a number of new or expanding transplants here since the bailout and BK. A GM failure shouldn't be as significant today as back then.
That's the thing that gets me the most. A GM failure shouldn't be on the shoulders of the American people in the first place. All these so called "Global moves" tell me that GM is doing pretty good outside of the US. It's also making a lot of these moves while continuing to ignore the very assistance that supposedly kept the lights on for them.
Why are we accepting this? Why are there not more folks raising holy hell at these "global moves"? Why is it that outside of the US, these global moves are taking place when we the taxpayers were drilled with stories and scenarios of how "The US economy will tank if GM goes under"?
Sorry, that whole bailout was complete and utter B.S. to me. Frankly, my gut instinct says that GM was doing just fine when they were sounding the alarms and begging for assistance. My gut instinct also says that we Americans were being played, and had the wool pulled over our eyes, so much that we were blinded into believing this horse pooey that they were going to go under... :sick:
These clowns have operations in dozens of Countries, all over the world. Somebody please tell me why, or how an operation can have so many assets overseas and still claim to be on the brink of disaster? How is it that these global operations were completely ignored when it came to handing out 60 billion dollars to these clowns to aid in their so called "crisis" when they're sitting on assets all over the world?
B.S. :sick: we were PLAYED. And now that so called "emergency" fund is being spent frivolously on ventures outside of their obligations and when those fail, I gaurantee we the US taxpayer will once agin, be the ones holding the check. And some people actually believe we should be handing even more to them... :sick:
I was neutral on the bailout, even though my intellectual half said GM deserved to choke, since as I have stated before, the legacy problems facing the Big 3 were well known back in the 70's, when I was in business school. Exactly how many "bridge out ahead" signs need to be posted before one gets the idea that the bridge is indeed out ahead?
Until someone does devise a plan to equalize these "legacy costs", giving more $$$ to GM is doing nothing more than moving back judgment day.
Solve that legacy issue, and I'm willing to give more $$$ a fair assessment..
It's not an unsolveable problem, it's just going to take a committed group of union AND management to do it. As long as there's a rich uncle to bail out the spendthrift nephew, don't expect any changes.
Maybe a "real" threat of death is the solution...
Like I said earlier, we need some adults here to step up to the problem.
Yes, a donut company. I remember clearly when this California based operation tried to expand their operations and opened a slew of new stores here on the East Coast. Well we here (in the New England area least) are pretty loyal to Dunkin Donuts. And there are a few who are loyal to Honey Dew donuts. And then there are the few smaller stand alones that people are loyal to. Then there are folks who know how bad donuts are for you and just avoid them all together, lol.
Anyways, in the end, the franchise had very little traction here so there are all but extinct.
Why the comparison? Well, in my eyes, this is a very similar situation to our very own Government Motors where the company (K.K.) failed, but rather than push for "bailouts" to stay alive, they regrouped and retreated back to their home turf to lick their wounds and move on.
To me, this is very similar to what should have happened with GM. If your company is in billions of dollars in debt and in desperate need of cash, tme to pull back some of those tentacles that you have planted in other parts of the globe. The priority should be those workers who are busting their tails on your home turf that matter the most... So yes, I don't like to see anybody lose their work but surely, an engine plant or two in Russia or Uzbekistan out of the 50 or so that you own should cover your debt.
Heck, why such the continuous effort in a well known failing entity known as Opel? Those operations should be worth something...
Just doesn't make sense how this company got off scot free with all assets in tact...
Don't interpret that to mean I see labor costs as the ONLY issue.
The whole management/labor "us .vs. them" paradigm has to change dramatically. And, GM has to spend its $$$ far wiser than its ever had to do in the past. Seems to me that there's a lot of the same attitude in management that was there in the 60-70's, when GM was clearly ruling the roost in the car business ( recent Peugeot investment ???).
It reminds me of a family I knew growing up. The grandfather was a truly self-made man, with the ability to see the future of his industry with extreme clarity. He made tons of money... And he also lived life large. His kids and grand kids also lived life large, but they didn't have the old man's clarity of vision, and one day they woke up broke. I remember going to their estate-style home when I was about 14-15, and watching everything get auctioned off to settle the massive debts the family owed. I thought then that they never saw it coming, and I still feel the same way today. They just didn't have a clue...
That'll be easy: GM bad, everyone else good. Posters know how to run auto company as Monday morning quarterbacks; GM doesn't.
I think this is correct. Seriously. I mean, how much worse could any of us done than Wagoner? Total failure is pretty hard to undercut.
But also an ample supply of foresight. :P
I remember reading (before the BK) MANY posts:
- GM should shed divisions
- GM is out of touch
- GM should be tough with the unions
And then during BK:
- GM should shed the divisions
- GM should kill the UAW contracts
- The Volt is a mistake at the prices they want to charge
- GM needs a strategy to be the best in something other than trucks and SUVs
That's not hindsight, it was foresight. And so a few years later, most of those things turned out to be correct. And the posters here are a lot cheaper than Wagoner and all of the other CEOs that have walked down fairly lane...
Lack of enough cash flow or hockable assets to cover costs = Bankruptcy.
I want GM to survive because they are excellent, not because they're a ward of the state. Still waiting for excellent.
Ahhhhhh........it's the CRITICS fault for where GM is today! Millions of brainwashed masses are buying other makes in droves. It's all so unfair.....
Not really. I'm pretty neutral. I am perfectly fine with their survival as long as (and this is a big IF), they don't take my money away from me by wasting my tax dollars.
As long as I don't have to invest in them year after year, time after time, with my money and/or tax money, I'm perfectly OK with them surviving, or not.
Doesn't matter to me at all really. I'll miss them about as much as I miss Circuit City.
Chrysler on the other hand... I'd like to see them and Fiat go under. They deserve to suffer painful deaths. I'll throw a party when FIat and Chrysler go under (or protest on forums online when they get bailed out a 3rd time).
I'd like to see some of you in place to implement ideas.
There could be a good outcome from some of you. Others, not so much chance.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Just need to throw in more money. All the talking down of GM and products just means more of your tax money will be needed.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Personally, I can't name a single instance where just throwing in more money ever saved any moderately sized company, much less one the size of GM.
And, I've helped bring 4 companies out of bankruptcy... None the size of GM, of course...
Can anyone else?
How much money did you contribute to those companies to keep them out of bankruptcy?
GM would be a much more worthy business to save.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Based on what? How much return will we get on our investment? Show us the business plan.
One thing I can tell you for certain... Not one of those companies I was involved in was saved by simply throwing money at their problems. Significant operational changes were made before any further cash infusion was made.
Why?
Because none of them had a taxpayer bailout available, so we had to actually demonstrate the ability to perform. And, I personally put cash in 2 of them, so I had some skin in the game....
Simply having a job at GM doesn't equal skin in the game, since employees can walk at any time.
On the other hand, no one is stopping you from throwing your personal savings towards GM to keep them going...
What qualifies them as a worthy business? (a serious question)
While we're on the subject...How about all the Mom and Pop businesses done in by the mega expansion of Walmart, or the independent building supply stores done in by Home Depot?
Are all these folks' tax $$$ somehow on a lower scale?
We all have a clear understanding of WHY GM got bailed out. What most of us don't get is the JUSTIFICATION of the bailout. Based upon our Constitution and form of government, exactly WHAT justifies the government to select winners and losers?
GM is not a worthy business. If they were a worthy business they wouldn't have needed saving in the first place (nor second place).
Illegal Drug dealing and trafficking is a worthy business.
Sex Trafficking is a worthy business.
Murder for hire is a worthy business.
GM is a worthy business.
All of those sentences above carry the same weight with me.
Remember, if Bush hadn't thrown money at GM in the first place, then we wouldn't have to even discuss throwing more money at GM now. It's a money pit. A Whirlpool circling the drain!
I seriously doubt he will throw any of his personal savings towards GM to help save them and keep them going. The same people that say GM is a good bargain always point out that MSRP is way above what you actually pay, so you can't compare MSRP prices between vehicles. If they truly loved GM, they'd walk into every dealership and offer MSRP on every GM vehicle they ever bought. If all of GM's customers had done that the last 10 years, they'd of never needed a bailout (perhaps). In fact... former GM customers should pay GM back for any "discounting" they negotiated at the dealership, and while there at it, why don't they refund all those "rebates" and "0% financing for 72 months" deals to the taxpayers (I mean GM) as well.
I strongly believe that the majority of pro-bailout GM people were pro-bailout for very selfish reasons, they had a personal stake in GM (owned stock, or owned their vehicles and wanted their warranties honored). Or worked for GM in some way, or had a business or stock that depended on GM too much to survive.
Personally, I'd of been AOK if home prices had plunged another 50% in the USA. Heck, a 100% plunge in addition to the current downturn (approx. 50% for my property from the peak) would have been fine with me. The bailouts were reckless and pointless.
One bright point, GM's new CEO has put some skin in the game by purchasing a significant amount of GM stock over the past couple years.
Somehow I think his heirs will regret his decisions though.
Somehow I think his heirs will regret his decisions though.
Akerson seems like a decent guy. He understands the problems. Just not looking like he's enough of an ahole to do the bold and harsh things he needs to do to save the company. Heads need to roll.
If he read all the posts, he'd see how many think of GM as an Ahole company, and would be better prepared to serve justice and have more heads rolling.
Wow. That's all I've got to say.
You're kidding, right? Enter the term "greater good". How many employees work for GM, dealers, or their suppliers across the nation--compared to any other company you can name.
You're kidding, right? Again, why is that OUR responsibility to keep those people employed? it's not, that's how. It's GM's responsibility. Unless you're also proposing we subsidize IBM, ConAgra, WalMart, etc. Why is GM any different from these other very large companies that employ gobs of people through their suppliers and customers.
Just as an FYI, I am a GM supplier.
Sometimes I think it's the same six guys going round and round though. Probably two days of posts would cover the subject. :P
GM really has it figured out. I'm just living in the wrong country I guess.
For China's CEOs, minivan a status symbol (Detroit News)
Yup. I still think this forum should be renamed, like "GM Haters Sound Off"
Think you're safe in your gated communities in the suburbs? I doubt that "Barney Fife" manning the gate for minimum wage is going to take a bullet to defend your family and your property.
Oh, wait, it's because we think we'll lose money on the investment and don't like their cars, and are therefore unwilling to give GM our money. :mad:
Down goes another one... :sick:
Again, GM is nowhere near going out of business forever. They have assets all over the globe that will prevent it, even though most folks probably have no clue they even exist...
It's doomsday stories like yours that will keep the fear alive tho so I'm sure if Bob Putz, Dick Wagoner or "Coke Can Dan" Akerson were reading this, he's probably grinning from ear to ear when he reads his loyalists spreading the word...
GM's problem is that their products don't appeal to enough of a market to sustain their size. Rather than pining away for products that only appeal to you, and demanding others sink money in despite not liking the products, maybe you should be asking GM to shrink itself to better serve its loyal customers, or perhaps start listening to its dissatisfied customers so it can start appealing to them.
I liked the idea of the I-4 and I-5 DOHC engines based on the Trailblazer I-6, parts sharing etc, kinda like the 350 V8 and 4.3 V6
Styling I wasnt crazy about......looked like the first gen S10 interior, this is an improvement? Only four guages? And the Nissan-like tail lights?
I'll keep my S10
Only when GM pays us back will I be back on a GM car lot, that will be a very long time!
"The GM division is squeezed between sagging consumer demand in Europe's indebted economies and growing competition from Asian volume-car makers."
GM's Opel to halt production at two plants (CNBC)
What once was a GM plant would be a (fill in the blank) plant.
They keep losing market share, and it will happen, unless they get bought by the koreans.
I can't tell you how many Fiat Doblo owners I saw wearing business suits in Brazil. Just about all of them.
lemko is "living large", they'd say. :shades: