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Are you sure it was the Buick 3.8 (231 cu in) and not the Chevy 3.8 (229 cu in)??
Goodluck finding the equivalent of stodgy for 8 makes? Try 12, Steve. I'm not sure even a thesaurus can handle it. :P :P
Welcome to the forum. I think you are spot on. The UAW would rather bury GM than to cut their wages and benefits. Let em die. We have lived on cheap credit for too long and now we will have to pay. It will be brutal for many people to face the reality of their wasteful ways.
Does anyone get a little upset that GM needed loan money to keep the doors open, and meanwhile probably are dropping a few million paying for drivers, cars, pit-teams, and expenses to race?
Everything I see including sponsoring football games is that it's business as usual with GM, when I would think they would be in crisis mode, with little accomplished 1/2 way thru their time-limit to keep their loans. :confuse:
Market share isn't everything, and as a matter of fact, many of the things GM has done to grab and retain market share have actually HURT profitability in exchange. That, to put it frankly, is stupid.
So maybe you shouldn't count GM out too soon.
GM: Saturn could survive; Chrysler: We'll be viable by spring
Robert Snell / The Detroit News
NEW ORLEANS -- General Motors Corp. said today the Saturn brand could survive a broad restructuring plan being developed that involves selling, shrinking or killing half of its eight brands.
All possibilities are being considered but the options will be narrowed next month when the cash-strapped automaker submits a restructuring plan to Congress, said Mark LaNeve, GM's vice president for North America sales, service and marketing, while talking to reporters during the National Automobile Dealers Association convention here.
"If we just wanted to shut it down, we could have announced that," he said. "Saturn may very well have a place" within GM.
Meanwhile, a decision on a possible sale of the Hummer brand could be announced this quarter. The automaker's restructuring plan must be developed under requirements of a $17.4 billion federal loan package that is keeping GM and Chrysler LLC afloat during an industry-wide sales slump caused by soaring gas prices, low consumer confidence and a credit crunch that ushered in a market downturn described as possibly the worst since the Great Depression.
Last year, U.S. car and light truck sales plunged 18 percent to 13.24 million vehicles, while GM's sales fell 31.2 percent last month and 22.7 percent for the year.
Detroit's automakers are all restructuring their businesses to better match production with demand, but they also need the economy to improve so consumers can buy cars and trucks again.
"Our collective goal has to be to turn this economy around and profitable growth for all of us," Ford Motor Co. CEO Alan Mulally told dealers during a. speech today.
Ford is not seeking government aid. GM and Chrysler, which both got loans, must file the plans by Feb. 17 and show significant progress in becoming viable companies by March 31 or the U.S. Treasury Department could recall the loans.
"We'd like to have clarity and narrow our options in February," LaNeve said. "We don't want it to drag on forever."
Saturn dealers have complained that sales have stalled since GM said the brand was under review. "When the industry declines 40 percent, that messes with them more than anything we've done," LaNeve said. "There is nothing I can say that is going to calm dealers down now."
The possibility Saturn could survive, however, offers a sliver of hope for the brand's roughly 400 dealers.
"It would be nice if they realized the strength of Saturn," said Dan Jonuska, a Scottsdale dealer who is a member of Saturn's Franchise Operating Team, which is in talks with GM about the brand's future. "It's a strong brand without a lot of dealers. We know how to sell small cars, which are perceived as green," or more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly.
"Maybe there will be a little groundswell with our brand," Jonuska said.
GM executives are scheduled to meet with dealers tomorrow afternoon during the convention.
GM has about 6,400 U.S. dealers and hopes to dramatically slash that number as a way to cut costs and return to profitability.
GM wants to eliminate 1,750 dealers within three years. Chrysler and Ford are also working to shrink their U.S. dealer networks.
The number of dealer cuts is not as important as shaping the profitability of the dealers that remain, executives said today.
GM wants to have the right number of dealers in the right areas generating enough sales to compete with foreign rivals.
"Dealers are not the problem," LaNeve said "It doesn't help in the short term to take them out. If I could have half the number of dealers tomorrow, I wouldn't want to do it.
"We have an obligation to manage the business and make sure we end up with the right dealers in the right location."
GM wants the average sales of Chevrolet to match Toyota Motor Corp. Cadillac sales should be competitive with Mercedes and BMW and dealers who sell Buick, Pontiac and GMC brands need to compete with Nissan dealers. Saturn, meanwhile, should generate sales that fall somewhere between Honda Motor Co. and Volkswagen.
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090124/AUTO01/901240422/1148
Plain English Translation: "We have trouble admitting we are too complicated. We led you to believe we would shut Saturn down but now that we have the money we don't really want to face that. Maybe we can find a way not to change that much and we will wake up in six months with a strong economy and everything will be OK".
English: Even with bailout money in our hands we still don't have enough to shut down Saturn. Plus if we say we're keeping Saturn it'd look like we're getting better and consumer confidence will rise back, so more customers will be fooled easily to buy GM.
Wrongo, I would not touch a GM or Chrysler product with a 10' pole, even if they had something I wanted. Well, maybe a heck of a deal on a Corvette or a Jeep Wrangler. They would have to be fire sale priced so I could resell and not lose money. Like half price.
I was thinking of something like, well, more like the buy 1 get 1 free at least.
My dad worked for them for a few years in maybe the late 60s. They had everything Sears did. Their equivalent of Kenmore was Airline. For a while we had tons of that stuff.
Maybe this is what happens to GM or Chrysler - they go bankrupt and someone buys up the intellectual property.
Nice Dream. No chance.
I hope Obama's Car Czar isn't an idiot. I count six brands that will survive. Where are the cuts?????? :mad:
Unbelievable!! Get ready for the next round of bailouts in March. They either file C11 or this ride becomes the laughing stock of industrial manufacturing history and the US Government.
Ridiculous. :P
Regards,
OW
I could see a Korean company buying some of GM's intellectual property. Try this logo on for size:
Genesis - the Cadillac of Hyundais.
I love it! Plus, if you loose your income in a year after purchase, they'll take the car back! What's not to love??
Regards,
OW
2002 Ford Thunderbird: Motor Trend Car of the Year
1971 Chevrolet Vega: Motor Trend Car of the Year
1997 Cadillac Catera: Automobile All-Stars
1985 Merkur XR4Ti: Car and Driver 10 Best Cars
1997 Chevrolet Malibu: Motor Trend Car of the Year
1990 Lincoln Town Car: Motor Trend Car of the Year
1980 Chevrolet Citation: Motor Trend Car of the Year
1974 Ford Mustang II: Motor Trend Car of the Year
1995 Ford Contour/Mercury Mystique: Car and Driver 10 Best Cars
http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/846/dishonorable-men- tion-the-10-most-embarrassing-award-winners-in-automotive-history
Nice Dream. No chance.
I hope Obama's Car Czar isn't an idiot. I count six brands that will survive. Where are the cuts??????
There are no cuts unless you count Hummer and Saab, two brands that are so insignificant as far as sales and size that no one would really notice if they went away anyway. You could see this coming a mile away...at first they were going to cut and shrink, but now they somehow think sales should be equivalent to Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, AND Nissan combined?? Based on WHAT pray tell? The sheer arrogance is astounding: they've been losing sales for the past decade and now all of a sudden their sales "should" be at that level? What have they done to EARN that level of sales? No to mention they're once again talking market share rather than profitability, which is a mistake they always make.
It sounds like they'd rather stay big and unprofitable rather than cut and make money. If their first priority isn't profitability, then let them have the same destiny as any other unprofitable company: bankruptcy and liquidation. Now I'm REALLY mad at GM, and would never even CONSIDER one of their products. Ever.
Of course it's not realistic, because they'd have to get somewhere below a 1:1 ratio of dealers for it to be. Even if they get a 1:1 ratio of dealers, those numbers still equal to Chevy getting more sales than Toyota, etc etc like I said above. And does anyone thing they can EVER shut down enough dealers to even get down to a 1:1 ratio?
For 1980, when the 229 came out, it replaced the 200 and was standard in the Monte Carlo and all Malibus. The old 4.1 inline-6 was dropped for that year as well, and the 229 became the standard engine in the Camaro, Impala, and Caprice as well.
I had a 1980 Malibu with the 229 V-6, and it seemed a decent engine for the time. I'd probably hate driving something that slow nowadays, but back in high school, and this is almost embarrassing to admit, but compared to most of my friends' cars, my Malibu was the "muscle car" of the bunch!
I look at it as sheer ignorance on the part of Wagoner and the GM board of directors. I don't think they can afford to cut brands without filing for C11. They don't have the money and who is going to lend them any to buy out all the dealers. I think they feel they can outlast the weak dealerships. There by lessening the cost to buy out those contracts. Why not just file for bankruptcy and toss it all on the courts to decide who gets what? I just wonder how much of our tax dollars will be wasted before the inevitable failure will occur?
I totally agree with you! I used to drive an 06 Accord, it was leases, LOVED IT!!
I was pretty much forced to choose a GM product, so I had to give up my Accord and get an 08 GM car. I was so disappointed. Though the car was loaded with all the options. I never thought I would be driving the car. I never even looked at them. I chose the Pontiac G6, 4cyl, leather, roof.
But..... I have grown to actually love it! It really is a nicely built car, and to be honest the car is more quiet on the inside than my accord. Has no rattles like my accord had. At first it was hard to get used to the suspension, they are much different, the turning radius really bugs me, its not sharp enough. But, I do have a new perspective on GM.
Now, do I want to keep the car, is this the car I want? NO. I lease this car, I will have it for 1yr this coming spring. I will walk away when its more practical to do so. Pay off versus my trade values much be better.
I am a little offended that they have our bail out money, then they get their jet back, the are still putting out yet another SUV, We do not need another SUV. Why is it they throw Honda into the commercial? lol? I am not sure what their new plan is, but seems to me they are not hitting the ground running, Not spending our money wisely. They need to downsize, then slowly work their way back up to snuff. Putting several SUV's out that are on the same plateform, the same thing is not a good way to spend. I am referring to the NEW Traverse SUV, which is also known as the Acadia, outlook, ect.... I am sure I am missing some. The Caddy Escallade Hybrid? Joking right? When are you going to see its pay off? I'll dump it before I ever see the pay off.
Anyway, just a few examples. They don't make bad products, but are they on par with its competitors? No, even the new malibu, though catches my eye, still not an Accord, the new mazda, Acura. I will enjoy my GM car until I can get either an Acura or Honda back. I also feel I don't want to support GM anymore!
Would agree that GM, as well as Ford and Chrysler, totally drop their racing programs until and when they are sound profit making companies. Let NASCAR and other racing entities revise their series to make do without GM support.
NASCAR is all about the drivers anymore, not the cars. Win Sunday, buy Monday is meaningless these days. Broadcast TV is going the way of newspapers. And then there was that tone-deaf GM robot commercial a few Super Bowls back. Word of mouth is where it's at I think, and that means people talking about their cars. Lemco has probably sold more big iron this year than Tiger Woods.
The European companies could sell their own small and smaller cars through the Saturn network, partner with Opel for the larger models at first, perhaps even buy a North American plant from GM as part of the deal to build some of their volume models right here and avoid the Euro exchange rate problem.
I am assuming the Chinese could just start wholesaling their own models through the Saturn network and it wouldn't be a profitability problem for them all to be manufactured in China and exported to us.
I know that the global economy is down, and the glib explanation offered that no-one wants to buy the Saturn brand is that no-one can raise the cash right now, but I can't believe that is all there is to it. GM ought to be trying a lot harder than it is to sell the Saturn brand and get that overhead out of their books.
And even then, it still seems they are betraying their promises of only a few weeks ago, to have such bold plans for the Pontiac brand. As an offshoot of Holden with annual sales of around 100K, focusing on per-unit profit rather than volume, I could call it a niche brand. But not with the recently announced plans for it....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But the ads are negated by the continual drumbeat of how awful GM cars are in the topics. This is despite signs from rating services that the trend has changed and the number of problems in the inital ownership is the same as the popular brands thought to be the ultimate.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The simple fact is that almost anything can be sold at any time, if the Seller is willing to take what it is worth. What it is worth = the highest amount anyone offers at the time. For example GM stock was worth $30/share two years ago, now its worth $4. Saturn was worth $X 2 years ago, now it's worth Y. The problem is GM is unwilling to sell at Y, but they certainly could. There are individuals and companies that would be willing to offer GM $50M or so, for Saturn assets.
Similarly Cerberus could sell Chrysler tomorrow.
Why don't GM and Cerberus sell? Because they have a better deal from Uncle Sam. We and the government have the chance to call their bluff and make GM and Cerberus sell, and recreate these car companies under capable management.
Ch.11, please.
Somone should find way for GM to discover Lemko; to sell its big cars. This would be like that guy who ate nothing but subway sandwiches for 10 years, lost weight and then became a subway spokesman. The ads GM could do with Lemko would be about a real person with decades of great experiences with many GM cars.
In these days of pragmatics, shoppers for new cars/vehicles could relate more to Lemko than to stupid and extravagent commercials. Such as one in recent years of a GM car racing to get on a moving car transporter. Maybe GM marektting could even do a comercial of a 10 year old Lemko desiring the finer things in llife, such as GM, at an early age. This would be like the Lexus Christmas commercial of a 30ish young lady getting a new RX350 reminiscing about when as a child she got a pony for Christmas.
There are no "Saturn specific" manufacturing plants - Aura shares the line with the G6 and Malibu, the Outlook with the Traverse, Enclave and Acadia, the Sky with the Solstice and Vauxhall/Opel GT and the Astra is built in Europe.
I think that the plant in Mexico that makes the VUE doesn't build anything else - yet.
Are you suggesting that if a foreign automaker bought the brand they could sell their cars under the Saturn brand name?
Pontiac and Saturn have just sponsored a youth baseball and soccer tournament in my area.
It would not be corporate GM sponsoring a local youth baseball / soccer tournament. Sure it was not local dealers?
So they're taking the money that they got from the community (and that the community did NOT want to give them) and giving some of it back? Well, isn't that sweet....NOT! :mad:
You would also get the assembly instructions and such. Maybe part of the deal is a contract to purchase the shared parts from GM, for a set amount.
If Saturn loses $ for GM each year, it would be far better for GM to sell it for whatever it can get, rather than continue to lose each year.
Name just about any car and I can find you some negative posts in the topics. (Weren't you and I talking not that long ago about those ~5,000 Toyota gel/sludge comments?). People are pretty grumpy in general aren't they? Or too lazy to write about how painless their car experience has been (another attaboy for Lemko). But most people know to take posts and personal stories with a grain of salt too.
I suppose you have to have the ads to get people talking about the cars in the first place.
General Motors’ Saturn brand isn’t expected to be included in the company’s viability plan — set to be handed into the U.S. government next month — but that doesn’t mean GM’s youngest brand will be going away overnight.
In fact, the Saturn brand won’t be going anywhere for at least four years. At a recent Saturn dealer meeting, GM revealed that it has allocated enough cash to keep Saturn vehicles in production until 2012, with some models guaranteed through 2013.
However, Saturn’s existence beyond 2013 is uncertain at best. “We’re working all the options,” GM sales and marketing head Mark LaNeve told Automotive News. “We’d love to find a way to continue the brand, but there’s nothing definitive I can tell you today.” A decision about the future of the Saturn brand is expected to be made next month.
With most production only guaranteed until 2012, Saturn’s future outlook is looking bleaker than ever. If the brand is in fact a lame duck, GM will spend little in the way of new product offerings. That means Saturn could finish in 2013 with an unspectacular lineup of 6-year-old vehicles.
I always thank them and give them a nice tip!
As for a Park Ave driving as nice as an LS series Lexus, whatever. Talk about overpriced crap (at least from '97-05). At least you won't find the the LS's powertrain in a $20/day fleet queen as you do with the wheeze box powering the Park Ave in every other mediocre GM W body. Nor do you hear about blown head gaskets, bad intake manifolds, misaligned body panels, and electrical gremlins etc. I've been around enough Park Ave's to know that those cars are far from well built (grandpa had a '97 and a '00 that were both junk). They do make perfect hoopty cars though.
You must have an acquired taste for those cars, kinda like how my grandpa liked his Park Ave and Milwaukee's Best. How you can drive your old Park Ave after driving the DTS is beyond me. I know I couldn't and wouldn't do it. I haven't driven a Park Ave since having to drive my grandpa's '00 PA from Tampa to Ohio back in 03. I think I made up new words to describe that car during that trip. I almost floated off the road trying to navigate I-77 through WV and almost driven insane by the windshield wipers that turned off and on on their own for a 1000 miles regardless if I had them on or off.
Nope, can't be based on data, they are now biased against the imports. At least that's what the GM faithful always said when CR reported poor quality and performance regarding the domestics;)
Why would they get the plant that builds the Traverse? Makes no sense to me.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,