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Convertible vs. Hardtop Coupe - which is better for a collector car?
OK, this an age-old topic for debate. If you could only have one collector car, which is the most "owner friendly"? A convertible or a hardtop?
I'll kick it off. Nothing beats the feeling of an open air driving experience. And, is there anything more enjoyable than driving a convertible on a warm summer's night? Sounds like this will be a slam-dunk debate, right? Not so fast.
How about when it's 85+ degrees with a blazing sun unmercifly beating down on one's forehead - especially if you're stuck in traffic and can't get any wind in your face? (can you say heat stroke?) Wearing a hat is great solution, until it blows off your head. Speaking of wind, ever try listening to the radio (assuming you're over 35 and didn't spend $10K on a brain-numbing, woofer thumping, window rattling sound system) or carry on an intelligible conversation with the passenger to your right (forget about anyone seating in the back seat) while at speed? OK, putting up the top on intense ozone action days would eliminate 3rd degree burns on your head, so the convertible wins that battle for its versatility. Then again, the hydraulics/mechanism of a convertible is just one more thing to worry about breaking down (and expensive to fix) - just ask the owner of a 1960's convertible Continental.
Then, there's the issue of the effects of time. While manufacturers usually built in more structural reinforcement, convertibles are prone to body twisting, aren't they? Wouldn't that add up over the course of 40 years resulting in some squeaks and rattles that could never be eliminated no matter how hard you tried?
Needless to say, a convertible is more susceptible to vandalism by even the lowliest of pocket knives. And, the price (ie., the entry into the hobby) of a hardtop is appreciably less than the price of admission for a convertible (assuming both cars are comparable in condition). On the other hand, there is a die-hard contingent that would say "anything OTHER than a convertible is merely a PARTS CAR!
Let's hear what you all have to say. Are convertibles over-rated, OR are they the only way to go?
I'll kick it off. Nothing beats the feeling of an open air driving experience. And, is there anything more enjoyable than driving a convertible on a warm summer's night? Sounds like this will be a slam-dunk debate, right? Not so fast.
How about when it's 85+ degrees with a blazing sun unmercifly beating down on one's forehead - especially if you're stuck in traffic and can't get any wind in your face? (can you say heat stroke?) Wearing a hat is great solution, until it blows off your head. Speaking of wind, ever try listening to the radio (assuming you're over 35 and didn't spend $10K on a brain-numbing, woofer thumping, window rattling sound system) or carry on an intelligible conversation with the passenger to your right (forget about anyone seating in the back seat) while at speed? OK, putting up the top on intense ozone action days would eliminate 3rd degree burns on your head, so the convertible wins that battle for its versatility. Then again, the hydraulics/mechanism of a convertible is just one more thing to worry about breaking down (and expensive to fix) - just ask the owner of a 1960's convertible Continental.
Then, there's the issue of the effects of time. While manufacturers usually built in more structural reinforcement, convertibles are prone to body twisting, aren't they? Wouldn't that add up over the course of 40 years resulting in some squeaks and rattles that could never be eliminated no matter how hard you tried?
Needless to say, a convertible is more susceptible to vandalism by even the lowliest of pocket knives. And, the price (ie., the entry into the hobby) of a hardtop is appreciably less than the price of admission for a convertible (assuming both cars are comparable in condition). On the other hand, there is a die-hard contingent that would say "anything OTHER than a convertible is merely a PARTS CAR!
Let's hear what you all have to say. Are convertibles over-rated, OR are they the only way to go?
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Is it possible that I presented both sides of the issue so eloquently and thoroughly there's nothing else to add? Yeah right, that'll be the day. LOL!
One thought I had was that if you plan to vintage race at all, you want the coupe version---say of an Alfa or an MGB or even a Shelby Mustang. They are safer, more rigid, and easier to modify for racing.
Another question is climate. If you've ever baked in the sun in a ragtop in Arizona, or felt the heat through a black canvas top frying the top of your head, you'll go for a coupe. But in a milder sunny climate like Colorado or mid-range California, the soft top is hard to beat for those warm night breezes and spectacular scenary.
In a metro area, the ragtop presents security issues as well.
I'll probably pull the convertible top and the motor off the S2000 at some point.
Edit: and maybe tint the rear window some.
It's fun to drive around in nice weather with the top down, and wind buffeting is actually almost non-existent in the front seat. But anybody in the back who's self-concsious will immediately start whining about what it's doing ot their hair. It squeaks and rattles more than a hardtop model probably would, but GM actually did a pretty good job building these cars. Most of the noise from mine comes from aged, crumbling window seals, and not any inherent design flaw.
I dunno about other manufacturers, but with my Catalina, even when the hydraulics stop working, you can still raise and lower the top by hand. It's easy if you have two people, but I can do mine by myself...even with a bum shoulder. Putting it down is no trouble at all, but it's hard to get it back up. Still, there is the added complexity, and the added expense of having to replace the top every so often. My top needs to be replaced, but I've just slacked off with it since the car's garaged most of the time.
Normally, convertibles give up some trunk room and back seat room, but GM's big cars from this era gave up very little. You can still get 3-across seating in back more comfortably than just about any car made nowadays. You'd have to move up to an SUV, truck, minivan, etc, to find better. And while the top probably takes about 5 cubic feet of trunk space, it's all up front, at that shallow spot over the rear axle. Even with the full-sized spare, I imagine there's 17-18 cubic feet of trunk space back there. Most midsized and even some full-sized cars would be proud to boast that much trunk volume nowadays.
My car has never been vandalized, but I also just have the stock AM radio in there, and nothing worth stealing. I'm sure that otherwise, it would've been broken into by now.
For a nice cruiser collector car, I've always leaned toward convertibles because they seemed like more fun. But, here's the thing. I just don't know if a convertible is the best choice if we're talking"older Detroit iron". It seems to me that an older convertible would be more susceptible to body panel alignment issues (40 years of body twisting takes it toll, does it not?), rust, squeaks, leaking (when the top is up) let alone the whole idea of maintaining the hydraulics and a mile of wiring. Plus, a hardtop coupe would be less expensive to buy and it's much easier to install a decent sound system given the availability of a rear package shelf for speakers. You could get a darn nice coupe for the price of a "needy" convertible. Ahhhh, but a convertible is just the thing for a warm summer evening drive. What's a guy to do?
How 'bout this? For your daily driver, you could go with something along the lines of a Pontiac G6 with the hardtop convertible option (or pick your favorite other modern-day convertible that fits your budget). For me, the G6 makes sense because its bigger (ie., more livable) than a Solistice/Sky/Miata, etc. and the convertible hardtop is perfect for Indiana winters. But, when the weather turns warm, at the touch of a button, you're driving topless (bring on the warm summer nights). And, you're doing so with all the comforts and reliability that modern day technology provides. So, with your daily driver doing "double duty", this frees you up to satisfy your collector car sweet tooth with a hardtop coupe. Tastes great - less filling! A win-win.
Or, does the prevailing thought of, "If your collector car is not a convertible, it's a parts car" win out?
Whad-da-ya think?
That being said, from a collector's standpoint you need to have a convertible.
So rarity, style and application to a particular low-stress use (display) gives the edge to the collector car convertible.
In "enthusiasts" terms, the 60s convertibles are gawd-awful. The chassis flex is pretty startling, especially if you make the mistake of adding modern poly bushings, hi-tech shocks and radial tires. Then the chassis really suffers. Only solution is to WELD in chassis stiffeners, like the Mustang 5.0 crowd does, but then you have altered the car in an irreversible fashion. You don't wanna do that to a Hemi Cuda ragtop!!!
Regarding chassis of a 1960's convertible, is the reason why you wouldn't want to use poly bushings is because they work smoother than the original - thereby making the frame take more of a beating?
Yeah, pretty much. That poly stuff is hard and won't flex like the original rubber. So it'll give you a firmer ride and theoretically better handling, but it's also going to transmit more road shock into the car.
Back when I first got my '67 Catalina convertible, I used to drive it everywhere. And put the top down on days when it really wasn't conducive to it, such as too hot or too cold. Eventually, the novelty wore off, and I drove it less.
Shifty, what would be an example of a car where the convertible version is worth less than the hardtop counterpart? I'm sure there are some, but I just can't think of any right offhand. I guess some real exotic, rare, custom-built stuff back in the real old days would be worth more, but with, say, 50's, 60's, and 70's stuff, are there any?
Some Ferraris don't much differentiate between coupe and targa models because the coupes are better for vintage racing, especially in Europe, where very VERY few enthusiasts race vintage convertibles.
Also Porsche 911 coupes of certain years are worth more as coupes or sunroof coupes than as targas. This is because targas are a PITA on those cars.
With domestics, I think a '63 Corvette Split Window can top a convertible version in value.
I'm sure there are others, I just can't thing of them.
Well, how about a 1964 Cadillac? LOL! I've found a very nice, original hardtop Coupe Deville that's for sale. Original owner had the car for 40 years and for much of its life was kept in a garage under blankets (I'm not kidding!) when not in use. So the car is in great original shape. I never thought about owning a hardtop collector car until I saw this one. It's that nice and I've seen my share of '64 Cadillacs. Owner is asking $12,500. Thoughts?
In real estate it's: "Location, location, location." With collector cars, its: "Condition, condition, condition", is it not?
You have to be careful about spending too much for a car like this because values are very stagnant and not likely to go anywhere.
But it's a great cruiser if you have the room for it. You just won't get noticed much like you do in a drop top Caddy. These are good cars.
For $10,000 the car should be pretty nice all around with no glaring defects or ugliness. for $12,500 it should be borderline spectacular, and for $15,000 the best in the world.
These are not high dollar cars, the coupes I mean. Sellers have to take their eyes off the convertible prices and realize that theirs has a hard--top.
In any event, I can't argue with the fact that the market is a lot deeper for a convertible than for a 2-dr hardtop coupe. On the other hand, the price for a pretty nice convertible is considerably more than a coupe in similar condition - which is what makes the Coupe Deville appealing. In that, I could get into coupe for a lot less money. While I can't say it wouldn't be nice to be noticed in a convertible, that's not my reason for wanting a collector car. So, that weakens the convertible argument somewhat. Plus, the first time someone pulls up next to me in a car with a ear-thumping stereo while I have the top down, I think the convertible would lose some of its luster where there's no place to escape. At least a coupe with its windows up would provide some bearer - (if only partially). Yeah, OK. I know I'm being picky here.
My motivation for wanting a collector car is for the driving "experience" (yes, I'm in therapy over this) and to be proud of what I have. For the price of a nice Coupe Deville, I think I can have both.
AND you can find one for less money! What's not to like about the SdV?
So, if a nice Coupe Deville could be had for around $10K, any "realistic" thoughts as to what the owner of a very nice Sedan Deville would be willing to accept?
I hear what you're saying about the "stodgy" image, but really, you think the coupe makes you a 25 year old playboy? :P
I always see these big coupes as sporting steer horns for some reason
About the only thing I'd argue with a 2-door versus a 4-door, is that I find the 2-doors easier to get into. While the doors are longer, which is going to cause a problem in tight spaces, the doors on cars from that era really aren't THAT long. That trend really didn't catch on until the 1970's. 4-door cars can be kind of hard to get into if you're tall and have the seat all the way back. Usually putting the seat all the way back puts it between the B-pillars. That always gave me a problem with visibility to the side, but with a 4-door hardtop that would be negated.
Most 2-doors from that era still had the seatbacks that were hinged at an angle, which helped entry/exit to the back seat immensely...just as long as you didn't try to push both seatbacks forward at the same time!
I think with some of the immensely huge cars, the 4-door hardtops do look better than the 2-doors, but I don't think that '63-64 style is one of them. I'd say they're about equal in looks, although I do like the way the A-pillar seems to curve more smoothly into the top of the roof on the 4-door, whereas it seems more angular on the 2-door. Both good looking cars in my opinion, and I'd be proud to own either one.
With some of the mammoth 70's cars, I think the 4-door hardtops look better, but that's mainly because in that era, they were trying to make just about every coupe out there look like a personal luxury coupe, with the massive C-pillar, small rear window, and rear roll-down side windows that were reduced to mere slits, or replaced by stationary opera windows.
On the subject of 60's Caddies, what would a decent '61-62 4-door hardtop go for these days? I always liked those. Isn't the 4-window style supposed to be worth more than the 6-window? Personally, I don't have a preference.
The 61s-62s seem to be only about $1,000 more or so (10%?) more than a '64. A coupe is more valuable but not by a lot. In most Cadillacs, the difference between 2DHT and 4DHT is not nearly as great as it is with the lower line GM cars. I think this is because a huge 2 DR coupe doesn't look right to the modern eye anymore.
As evidence of my theory, you will note that large coupes such as the BMW 8 series was a flop and that the large Mercedes coupes never sold very well either.
It's also ironic that the only large 80s--90s Chevrolet sedan worth more than used car money these days is the Impala SS from the mid 90s, another 4 door.
Also the Jaguar XJ6C was a failure and the XJS is dirt cheap in today's market.
So I think my theory of the "handsome 4 door", while EXCEPTIONALLY RARE, has some credence.
I predict (place turban on head) that in a short time the Cadillac Sedan de Ville of the 60s and 70s will exceed the coupe equivalent in value, based on modern tastes.
Actually, I could see that. Seems like as the 60's wore on, the big 4-door hardtops got better looking compared to the 2-door hardtops. I'd say by 1969-70, the Sedan DeVille was a better looking car than the Coupe DeVille. I still think the coupe is good looking, but just don't care for the styling around the rear quarter window and C-pillar area
, as shown on this 1970 Coupe DeVille
Another thing I really hated, once they started going to fixed windows on coupes, how the rear side windows wouldn't always line up with the windows in the doors. Kinda like in this Buick Electra ad. It has a clumsy look to me, around the B-pillar area, almost as if one committee designed the front part, one designed the back part, but they didn't agree on how to make them line up! In this case, I think the 4-door hardtop, which is in the background, is a much better looking car.
Now when they were still making C-body hardtop coupes, I thought it was still an attractive style. But I think I still prefer the 4-door hardtop, even here. Here's a '73 Electra 2-door hardtop:
The 4-window Sedan doesn't have a fixed B-pillar so I don't think there would be a blind spot even with the driver's seat all the way back. Getting into the back seat of a Sedan would be easier than a Coupe - unless the average age of the rear seat passengers is under 25, at which point it's a toss-up.
While I admit the Coupe wouldn't win me many (any?) "come hither" smiles from a co-ed, a 4-door just seems like I should be driving in a funeral procession.
The 4 doors look good in black IMO and darker non-metallics.
I imagine come resale time, if you get bored with it, the coupe would be easier to sell than the sedan.
The sedan will be cheaper to buy, and possibly cheaper to insure since one component of your insurance will be agreed-upon value. However, it's going to be just as expensive to drive, maintain, repair, and might actually be harder to find some of the more unique replacement parts that differ between a 2- and 4-door. Since 2-doors are more popular, it tends to be easier to track down those types of parts, and it's more likely that aftermarket suppliers might make repro stuff, etc.
With regard to production, in 1964 Cadillac produced about the number of hardtop Coupes (38,195) as they did 4-window Sedans (30,579). For the record, they also made 15,146 six-window Sedan Devilles. And, in case you're keeping score at home, they made 17,900 convertibles. All of these figures are per the book "Cadillacs of the Sixties" by Roy Schneider.
Besides no one will ride with you in the back seat of a coupe. It's like you are trapped in a cave back there. So I'd go for the car with room for the family and you can still fit 3 dead bodies in the back, should the in-laws give you any trouble.
It seemed that the locals put a higher value on cars that came from the mainland so if the car had a heater, it was from the mainland and worth more.
In later years I purchased a '63 Fiat Spyder as a second car, but driven to work.
I fought invading water & even bought a used factory hardtop, but that didn't help.
It was replaced by a '66 Mustang GT Coupe & it has been dry ever since.
When showing the Mustang, the other participants appreciate the car, but when a convertible in equal condition is in the show, it is the convertible that gets the admiration of the other entries.
Because the Coupe is now a garage queen trophy car that hasn't been wet since 1995 - a convertible 66 Stang would be desired if the coupe were to be replaced.
Condition, condition, condition is most important - especially at the shows.
On the other hand, the main reason for owning one of these cars is for its "style" - which is obviously in the eye of the beholder. And, to "this" beholder, the coupe wins the battle on style. And, while I doubt Steve McQueen would've wanted to have been buried in one, the Coupe Deville just seems more "cool" than the Sedan Deville. Furthermore, since a '64 Coupe Deville wouldn't be my daily driver, the convenience factor of having four doors might be moot. Hard to tell. Perhaps with a collector car, I'd want 4-doors a greater percentage every time I turned the key. But, I don't think my requirement to haul around more than other person at a time would increase dramatically with a collector car. Truth be known, I would suspect I'd be flying solo a great deal of the time anyway (the whole "collector car" euphoria only goes so far with my soon-to-be wife - LOL!) which tends to sway the decision toward a coupe.
I will say this, once you get into the back seat of a Coupe Deville (albeit, with some coaxing), you sure could do a lot worse in terms of comfort. While the lack of rear doors might technically qualify as being in a cave, it's a pretty nice cave - leather upholstery and all - and pretty roomy, especially compared to a Chevelle, Camaro, Mustang or any other collector car with a bit more "muscle", so to speak.
My '57 DeSoto and '67 Catalina are both 2-doors, and there have been plenty of times when I've had people pile in the back seat, and nobody's ever complained about the room. Well, except for their hair, in the Catalina, when I'd put the top down. Despite being 2-doors, they're probably still bigger in the back seat than most modern 4-door cars. I'm sure a '63-64 Coupe DeVille would be similar.
For the most part, I don't think 2-door cars started being a pain to get into the back until the 1970's designs came out. And smaller cars are going to be more difficult. My '68 and '69 Dart hardtops weren't really that hard to get into the back seat of, but my '76 LeMans is horrible. Part of the problem is that the LeMans has a B-pillar that slants forward, making entry/exit more difficult. And once they made the sides of cars start curving in more, I think that made it more difficult.
I saw a '63-64 Caddy last nite, on tv. One of my friends gave me the first season of "CHiPs" on DVD, and there was one in the pilot episode, a nice looking 6-window 4-door hardtop. I'm not gonna say what happened to it though, because it's too awful to repeat here.
Anyone care to disagree?
But the Buicks also have a close ratio between 2DHT and 4DHT.
I think the less "performance" oriented a car is, and the larger it is, the more the values of coupes and 4DHTs merge.
Right now, they look to be within 10% of each other---that's a lot closer than one might have thought. I was a bit surprised myself.
Hmmm, that is surprising. As a general rule of thumb, I used to figure a 2-door hardtop was worth about twice as much as an equivalent 4-door pillared sedan, and then a convertible would be worth about twice as much as the 2-door hardtop (or 4x the 4-door pillared sedan) For models like 2-door sedans and 4-door hardtops, I figured they were usually worth more than a 4-door pillared sedan, but still nowhere near 2-door hardtop territory.
But nowadays, if I want to know the value of something, I'll just ask Shifty! :shades:
10%? Are you sure? In considering a '64 Coupe Deville that's for sale, the seller cited the NADA value guide. I don't have the figures right here in front of me, but NADA's values show a difference that's waaaaaaaaaaaaay more than 10%. For a Deville in average condition, I think they show the coupe at around $8,500 and the convertible around $11,500. I know these numbers aren't spot on, but they're pretty close. That's considerably more than 10%. I'd be curious what the figures are in the CPI guide too.
Shifty, not that I'm questioning you, but . . . . . . . where is your support for the 10% price differential?
Just remember this piece of wisdom:
Price Guides only put you in the right "decade". That's as close as they get.
Okay, CPI has a Sedan Deville in "good" condition at $7500 and a coupe de ville at $10,000. So that's......more like 25% in the good category but about 10% in the fair category.
The better the car gets the wider the margin, it looks like. I'd go along with that.
I'm so used to people calling me up and saying that the car is 'excellent" and then I go look at it, and it's barely a #3 or a low #4.
So okay, let's say for nice stuff that a Coupe DV is outpricing a SdV by 25% then.
Still not a lot.
Hemmings Muscle Car Magazine has an interesting article in the Jan issue about this (last page), how 4-door prices are going up a lot.
Since this discussion is "coupe" related, here's a nice one that will sell at the upcoming Barrett-Jackson auction. A 1964 Buick Wildcat. I'd take this car in a heartbeat regardless that it's not a convertible. I've always liked these. I was only 3 or 4 when these were produced so I don't remember this car as being the "gentlemen's muscle car" as the write-up says, but with the 425 ci motor and this car's sporty nature, I can see how that would apply.
Who want's to guess as to how much this car will sell for? Here's a hint, come up with what you think this car is worth, then add 35% - since it's Barrett-Jackson. This car goes across the block on Friday. So, here's my guess. I think someone there will be willing to pay something in the mid $20'sK. Perhaps if it was on Saturday, it would bring a bit more.
Gentlemen, the floor is yours . . . . . .
http://www.highwayone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds.cgi?cat=6&resource_id=13560&header- =
In looking at some alternative to big parade float convertibles, I reacquainted myself with the 1966-67 Fairlane GTA convertible. First of all, these rather simple cars look very good to my eye. If memory serves, the Mercury counterpart (a red Comet) was the Indy pace car one of these two years. Usually, being named the Indy pace car was a pretty good indicator of consumer appeal, or at least would help foster it. So, this body style must have had somewhat of a following "back in the day".
This looks like a nice one. It's received recent suspension work, a rebuilt motor, a new interior and the convertible top looks to be fairly new. But, the paint is older. The seller wants around $25,000. I've seen others (390 engine models) with asking prices around $29K+. Are these cars really SELLING for that much in the market? My last CPI book (Dec. '05) shows a "good" at $13,175 and an "excellent" at $23,725. Recent values from NADA are: $20,670 & $36,720 respectively. Surely CPI's values haven't changed that much in two years. So, it's hard to understand why there's such a big disparity between these two publications. But, it seems like CPI always establishes the low-end of values. Nothing new there.
Taking both publications into consideration, I'm thinking this particular example is worth somewhere around $18K which is quite a big difference from the $25K asking price. I also saw this car posted on another service with a listing date of Oct. '07. So, this car hasn't been lanquishing on the market for a year or anything too terribly long which also makes me think the seller wouldn't be too anxious to take $18K.
I know it's tough to tell from photos, but would anyone like offer their opinion as to what this car is worth in today's market?
Good: $14,000
Exc.: $22,000
Show: $27,500
Loan: $12,500
Perhaps my $18K estimate isn't too far off??? Of course, I'm guessing the seller would challenge that.
The answer is pretty easy, Mr. Shiftright...the '96 is the last model year produced, plus the '96 has the floor shifter and round analog gauges missing in the previous models.
Bill P.
67 Ford GTA --- yes, I agree, about $20,000 is all the money for that car in #3 condition.
"Asking" price is the exercise of your First Amendment rights. It doesn't mean the car is "going" for the asking price, or anything remotely like it
Case in point, it's generally my impression that '67 Corvettes tend to sell for more than the other "mid-year" Vettes (excluding '63 the split window). So, because it was the end of a model run, I guess I can see where a '96 Impala SS might sell for a bit more than an otherwise similar '95. I think the '71-'73 Mustangs were pretty homely which would partially explain their decrease in value - that and their detuned motors.