Toyota RAV4 Burns Oil

dbs00dbs00 Member Posts: 3
edited May 2014 in Toyota
1997 Rav4 with 185k miles burns some oil. I replaced the PCV valve thinking that may be the issue. That seemed to stop the visible smoke at a cold startup but alas, the problem still persists. We bought the car for a song at 180k so I don't feel I'm out much. The previous owner took incredible care of the car so it is solid in most areas.

I did learn the previous owner followed a dealer recommend oil change interval and changed the filter with every other oil change so this may explain some things.

My real question, and sorry for taking so long, is if the engine does need a refresh, what is the best option? I've not at all afraid of tackling a major overhaul myself and, in the past, have had pretty good luck with aftermarket rebuilt short blocks. But that was years ago. The dealer cost for a crate motor is outrageous and not justified for a '97 anyway. So at this point, I'm just looking for some advice from others who may have been down this road. Again, the rest of the car is solid and we don't have much money in it at this point so would like to keep it as our 'second' car for awhile.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.


  • sdc2sdc2 Member Posts: 780
    How much does it burn? A case or two of oil is a lot cheaper than a new engine.

    A puff of smoke at startup often is just a little oil that drains down through worn valve guides while the engine is off. Not a big deal, usually.
  • dbs00dbs00 Member Posts: 3
    Good point. It seems to consume about 2 quarts between 3000 mile changes. Granted I could buy l lot of oil for the $3k+ it will cost for a short block plus gaskets, valve job, pumps, etc. I don't know if the local inspection will have issues with a smoker if a slight smoker.

    Any experience, good and bad, with an after market short block?
  • dbs00dbs00 Member Posts: 3
    Has anyone tackled replacing the valve step seals in a Rav4. After some investigation, it appears the most likely cause is leaky valve stem seals. According to a mechanic I trust, he said the seals can be replaced with the head still on the car but it is very labor intensive. The labor is due to adjusting the valve shims and not the seals.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Just experiment by adding different oils(same weight and type) as it burns off and see if one slows the burn rate. There are the high mileage oils you could try.
  • bjorn1bjorn1 Member Posts: 5
    My RAV4 2008 (38k) burns a lot of oil, nearly 4 l. or close to a gallon per 10.000 km. I have heard others have the same problem and have had their engine changes. Any experience or comments?
  • john3946john3946 Member Posts: 4
    My 2007 REV4 has the same problem. The engine has been laud since it was delivered. My wife complained to the dealer, but they told her that it was not a problem. About one and half year later, we found that the engine oil got under the dipstick and became black after about every 2000 miles drive. We reported to the dealer but they just added some more oil and did nothing else on it. Recently we asked the dealer to check the engine oil every month and document the difference and they finally admitted that the engine is burning oil. However, they said that about half quart per 1000 mile is not a problem that Toyota wants to take any action on. Anyone has similar experience? Do I need to go to arbitration or file a law suit against Toyota?
  • bjorn1bjorn1 Member Posts: 5
    They have now monitored my oil consumption for several months. It uses 2,5 - 3 liter per 10.000 km. They have now decided to change the cylinders, pistons etc etc - perhaps the entire engine - under the guanrantee. I have heard of others with similar problems and one who also had his engine replaced. So it is certainly another Toyota "anomaly"
  • john3946john3946 Member Posts: 4
    How did you get Toyota to repair the engine? Is it still under warranty? Did you have all maintenance done by Toyota? Did you change oil on schedule? Do you have all maintenance records? Sorry to ask you so many questions - I am still working with the dealer to get my vehicle repaired.
  • bjorn1bjorn1 Member Posts: 5
    Yes, the warranty covers because the car is less than 3 yrs. old. And I have had all maintenance done by the Toyota workshop. They even monitored oil consumption for a period where I took my car for every 1000 km. This was after a request from the National Toyota outfit. So Toyota was involved in every step and did all maintenance.
  • john3946john3946 Member Posts: 4
    My dealer just send me the guidelines set by Toyota's warranty: "Excessive Oil Consumption 60/60,000. If oil consumption exceeds one quart per 1,200 miles of operation and examination of the parts indicates cause was due to defective materials or workmanship when engine was originally built." My Rev 4 burns about 1 quart per 2000 miles so they refused to repair. How did you get toyota to work for you?
  • bjorn1bjorn1 Member Posts: 5
    I believe my consumption is higher than yours: 2.75 liters for 10.000km. - that translates to what?: 5 quarts for 6500 Miles or thereabout.
  • john3946john3946 Member Posts: 4
    Ths oil consumption is about the same. Your rev4 burns 2.75 litter, or 2.9 quart per 10000 km, or 6213 mile, about 3 quart per 6000 mile. Mine is 1 quart per 2000 mile.
  • evanmaydevanmayd Member Posts: 1
    My 2007 4-cylinger Toyota Rav 4 needs a new short engine block, a $5000,00 repair, At about 64000 my husband checked the oil and found the dip stick dry & burned black. We took to our local Toyota dealership who changed the oil free and had us come back to measure the amount of oil we are using. It was determined that we are using about a quart about every 1000 miles. Toyota said that this was within there acceptable guidelines, but said we need a new short engine block. They said if we checked the oil at least every 1000 miles we would be okay. When I said that I had bought a Toyota because I wanted a good vehicle and I said the engine block shouldn't damaged. The Toyota employee agreed that this shouldn't happen with a Toyota, but we still have to pay $5000 tio get this fixed.

    A few months ago we had the water pump replaced while it was still under the warranty. We previously has the steering column replaced under the warrant.

    I am so disappointed in the vehicle. It was my first new car. It already has some minor rust and the carpet has a whole despite using floor mats. The front passenger window makes noise.

    Any suggestions?
  • rav4sucksrav4sucks Member Posts: 1
    I bought 07 Rav4 and after 48k it started guzzling oil. It now consumes more oil than my 08 Tundra. Toyota failed miserably with this engine. Never again!
  • bjorn1bjorn1 Member Posts: 5
    I had exactly the same problem. Toyota was very helpful. They changed pistons, piston rings etc. It did not help. After extensive investigations they found out that the valves were too large and they changed them. This cured the car. They covered all costs for this.
  • brincbrinc Member Posts: 3
    Was your Rav4 still under warranty? I have the same problem but my Rav4 has already 74,000 miles.
  • parthanon1parthanon1 Member Posts: 16
    I am looking at 2011 Rav 4. After reading the posts here I am a bit scared to buy the Rav. Are these problems for a particular model or year. Please help me with some information
  • parthanon1parthanon1 Member Posts: 16
    I saw that Honda has redesigned the CRV but some good features. Is Toyota redoing the 2012 Rav to stay in competition? anyone know
  • jbwood5jbwood5 Member Posts: 2
    Toyota made a change to the 4 cylinder equipped RAV4 models in 2009. The new 2.5 engine does not appear to have the oil consumption problems mentioned by those having earlier models. My RAV4 (2009) just clicked over 30,000 miles and I just did the 5th oil change. I put the used oil in a 5 gallon container and it was about 4.5 quarts which is the fill amount from the previous change. In about 5000 miles, I could detect no usage at all.
    I hear of more problems with the 6 cylinder setup than the 4 cylinder models, but in any case, a 2011-2012 model should be pretty trouble free.
  • lucky43lucky43 Member Posts: 1
    I am having oil burning issues with my Rav4 also. It is a 2006, 4 cylinder. I have had my oil changed religiously in this car as it was my first new car. Every 3000 miles and I have the all the paperwork. About two months ago, I made a sharp right had turn and noticed the oil flicker on and off. Stopped at a station and it was completely empty of oil. I had had an oil change about 2000 before this happened. Now I am adding a quart of oil every 1500 miles or so. My mechanic (not Toyota, but one I have used for years) tried changing the type oil this time to see if it helps. It only124,00 miles. I thought it would get a good 200,000 miles out of it, especially with my maintenance record. Suggestions?
  • arcoxpaarcoxpa Member Posts: 2
    I have a 2007 Rav4 with 87K. The last two times I've gone in for oil changes my oil light has come right before bringing it in. I am very diligent about oil changes. The first time the dealer thought maybe there wasn't enough oil put in the first time. I took it to a different facility for the next oil change. They told me my oil was nearly empty, and that I should take it back to my dealer. There were no signs of leaks at the dealer, so they had me bring it in for a consumption test. I was told the car was not consuming any oil. However, I checked the dipstick before and after the appointment for my consumption test. I videotaped checking the dipstick before and after with time stamps. I showed the video to the mechanic who did my consumption test. His response was that someone must have put oil in the car since my video demonstrated much less oil before the appointment than after. He told me to come back for my next oil change in 3000 miles (manufacturer recommended 5000K). That certainly didn't address my problem. My warranty is almost up at 100K. I feel like I am being limped along until I reach 100K when they will tell me I need a new half block. Any suggestions? :-)

    Disappointed and Angry Former Toyota Customer
  • valerie27valerie27 Member Posts: 1
    At 96000 miles, my 2007 Rav4 started buning oil. We had purchased the car new and paid roughly $1600 for the extended warranty. I brought it to the dealer who did a pressure test on it, topped the oil off, and told me to drive the car 1200 miles, then return it to see how much oil the car had consumed. I did so. According to them, my car burned "just under a quart" in the 1200 miles. Toyota considers it "normal" to burn "just over a quart" in 1200 miles. They are refusing to make good on the extended warranty. I decided to have it checked again in 1200 miles. This will bring my mileage up to 99,500. Instead of driving the 1200 miles in as short a time as possible, I am dragging it out this time, hoping that the oil dripping for 6 weeks instead of 3 will make a difference in the amount of oil lost. I am so disappointed in Toyota. I have owned a Toyota for most of my life, and thought they were a stand-up company. Has anyone had any success in getting them to cover the repairs for this problem? Am I fighting a losing battle?
  • brincbrinc Member Posts: 3
    I have the same problem with my 2008 rav4. Toyota is trying to cover up the oil consumption and the dealership will tell you that the consumption is normal after 1200 miles. The only way to prove their wrongdoing is to take the car to a non Toyota dealer and measure the oil consumption.
    They know about the problem but would cost the company way too much to admit the issue. We should collect all the evidence and start a class action.
  • keyser2keyser2 Member Posts: 25
    Doesn't look like this is a common problem judging by the number of posts. I have an '07 with 78k miles and use about 1/2 quart between oil changes. I am sorry for the people who have had problems, but not buying a coverup by Toyota. This company has been the victim of lots of accusations, few, if any are substantiated.
  • arcoxpaarcoxpa Member Posts: 2
    I had a real problem. Took it to a different dealership. They informed me thee was a bulletin out for my engine. It was coverd under my warranty. Valves not seated correctly. I was burning a quart ever 1K. O'Brian Toyota in Indianapolis took care of my problem, and were great. Butler Toyota in Indianapolis told me nothing was wrong. I will not be returning to Butler Toyota.
  • keyser2keyser2 Member Posts: 25
    The 2013 will be a brand-new design. Look for them at dealerships by September
  • mrs_b1mrs_b1 Member Posts: 1
    My mechanic found that I was completely out of oil after two oil changes after 3000 miles each. He went online and found the following information from regarding Toyota vehicles from ALLDATA online: “Some 2006-2011 model year vehicles equipped with the 2AZ-FE engine may exhibit engine oil consumption.” It goes on to list some other information. My 2007 Rav4 has this engine. The problem was noticed just after the 60,000-mile warranty. I brought it to Toyota’s attention and they tested it twice after going 1000 miles each time. It was confirmed that the vehicle is consuming one quart per 1000 miles, which the mechanic himself from Toyota said was bad. I was working with Headquarters at Toyota and told them what their dealership said, which was basically that I need a new engine, and they said they would try to work with me to see if there was any out-of-warranty coverage the could offer, but they were unable to offer me such assistance. So now I am stuck with a fairly young Toyota vehicle with a serious engine problem. I am interested to find out if any of these other complaints relate to a Toyota vehicle with this specific engine. Then I would be interested in finding out about starting a class action suit if enough people with this engine and problem could be found out.
  • lizzie07lizzie07 Member Posts: 6
    Over the last year or so, my husband had been concerned that my 2008 Rav 4 had been burning too much oil. Well about 3 months ago I noticed that my oil light came on.

    We checked and I hardly had any oil at all in my car. I went to my dealer and he informed me that there was a TSP (not a recall on this problem), but they are aware of the issue. Back when the engines were put together for this engine, they discovered that there was a problem with the pistons and the rings.

    I had an extended warranty which covered the $4000.00 that it cost to correct this problem. I can now say that I am happy again with Toyota. Even though I believe that there should have been a recall, (they said it does not warrant a recall because it is not a safety issue). You might as well say that now I have a brand new engine.

    I think that they should be a little more up front with their customers about this problem, but I advise everyone to please be diligent and take the car back to the dealer where you bought the car.
  • snimrensnimren Member Posts: 1
    Same problem here, 2006 RAV4 I4, 75K miles. Checked the oil level 2000 miles after oil change and it burned 1 quart. Planning now to check every 1000 miles to see how much it consumes.

    How many complaints are required to start a class action?
  • lanie8lanie8 Member Posts: 4
    I, too, have an oil burning issue with my well maintained 2008 Toyota Rav 4 - This started at approximately 55,000 miles, burning 1 qt every approximately 1,200 miles, which my dealer termed "Acceptable" at that time. Now I am up to 73,000 miles and it is burning about 1 qt every 800-1,000 mi. This is a known issue within certain serial #s of Toyotas and Scions (technical bulletin was issued in August? October? :mad: of last year, which I found). Now that the burning oil issue has been confirmed to be "outside normal limits" by my dealer, they want to replace some pistons to see if this will fix the problem. I was hoping for a better resolution to this - Anyone else get a good deal? I can't in good conscience sell this car, yet my dealer doesn't seem to want to do more, even though this is entirely Toyotas fault.
  • sparkleysparkley Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2008 Toyota Rav4 that I purchased used with 36,000 miles on it. The first few oil changes were fine. My mechanic noticed that it burned through a quart in about 5,000 miles which according to any mechanic or guys I know that know anything about cars say this is a ridiculous amount of oil to be burning through n that amount of mileage. The next time it burned through 2 qts in the same amount of time. I also got my hands on a TSB (Toyota Service Bulletin) that has narrowed this problem down to two factories in Japan and specifies vin numbers that are potentially at risk for this oil consumption problem. However I feel like Toyota is giving me the run around making me jump through hoops to determine if the car is actually burning oil. My VIN number is one that could be affected by this and it seems obvious to me that it does have the oil cosumption problem Toyota needs to stand behind their mistake of building a faulty engine and fix these engines. I am now undergoing my 4th test.
  • thumper96thumper96 Member Posts: 1
    The owner's manual indicates 1 qt per 600 miles is normal. I have taken my Rav4 to a dealer and argued the fact that the engine holds about 4.4 qts. This gives me about 2640 miles before the engine is completely out of oil. If my oil change is scheduled every 3000 miles, the engine would be out of oil before then. I have heard unofficially that dealers do not want to repair engines under warranty since they only get a flat rate for the repair. Out of warranty stuff is more profitable for them. This may be true, because the dealer doesn't want to touch my car even though I have an extended factory warranty for it. Maybe a class action lawsuit is the solution.
  • faudoofaudoo Member Posts: 1
    I am also disappointed in Toyota. We bought our 2007 RAV4 brand new because we believed Toyota to be a reliable, high-quality vehicle. We drive a lot of miles for a work commute (just turned 200,000) and about a year ago noticed that the engine was using a lot of oil. Didn't think much of it the first couple of times we needed to add oil between oil changes, which occurs about every 6 weeks, but when it continued I started looking up potential issues and found this. I haven't gone to my dealer yet to inquire if they are aware of the issue(I'm sure they are, it's whether they admit it or not) and if there is anything they plan to do about it.
  • justus6justus6 Member Posts: 10
    I, too, have an oil burning issue with my 2006 Toyota Rav 4. The dealership did the oil consumption test and of course found nothing. I contact Toyota Headquarters and they stated that no one else has I guess no recall on this issue. Clearly with this many complaints being posted daily the oil consumption is an issue with many complaints...if everyone is saying the same thing there must be some truth in it. Everyone cannot be delusional. I say that we make our voices heard at Toyota. Let's start a class action suit
  • lanie8lanie8 Member Posts: 4
    My 2008 Rav 4 is going in Monday for repairs. Please, everyone with this problem, find online the Toyota Service Bulletin dealing with this. It lists specific VIN #s or Rav's, Camry's and Scions affected by a manufacturing defect and if you are using more than 1 qt of oil in less than 1200 miles, it qualifies to be looked at. If you show them this bulletin, have a compatible VIN # and have been documented to be burning oil - They should do something. I was hoping for a buy out, but they are going to try to fix the defect. Stay tuned.....
  • justus6justus6 Member Posts: 10
    Thanks for your response. My car has been looked at twice; however, the dealer wants me to pay $3000-4000 for an engine overhaul...why should I when it's Toyota's problem. I just called Toyota headquarters (1-800-331-4331) and the service tech stated once again that consumers are not calling in to complain about the oil consumption issue, which I believe is a LIE. He also stated that Toyota Service Bulletins are basically informational documents not a recall document. So before our engines burn out from no OIL or we go broke trying to keep it filled with OIL, we need to start a class action suit.
  • justus6justus6 Member Posts: 10
    How do we get the suit started? I dont have to see my VIN# on a list to know that I have an oil problem. The lack of about 3 quarts of oil within a two to three week time frame is proof enough. It is not normal and Toyota is not going to convince me that it is. I am now undergoing my 2nd and final test.
  • justus6justus6 Member Posts: 10

    There are 4 requirements to proceed with a class action.
    1. Numerosity - enough plaintiffs to make class action an efficeint way to handle the claim.

    2. Commonality - common issues of fact and law for each claimant

    3. Adequacy of Class Rep - the person who is the class representatitve needs to have claims that are the same as the class members and that they are capable of serving as the representative.

    4. Adequqcy of Counsel - that the law firm representing the class has sufficient skill and resources to represent the class.

    A certified class action suit is one brought on behalf of a large group of people as plaintiffs who have suffered some similar harm from the same actions of the defendant or defendantsA certified class action suit is one brought on behalf of a large group of people as plaintiffs who have suffered some similar harm from the same actions of the defendant or defendants.
  • abelliveauabelliveau Member Posts: 2
    I am also looking for people with the same problem in order to file a class action suit. I know there has already been one filed in 2007 in Louisianna for the same problem, but it only mentioned a few makes of vehicles, the RAV 4 not being one of them. Toyota lost and had to pay for this problem, and it is binding until 8 years later.

    link title

    I am from New Brunswick, Canada, and so I am looking to join a international class action. My truck is 4 years old, and the problem started around 133,000 km. Same thing, oil sludge problem. Need a new engine, cost $6000 with installation. Called Toyota, of course they said the warranty was expired. Can you tell me what Service Bulletin it is, there are a lot of different ones and I could not find this specific one.
  • abelliveauabelliveau Member Posts: 2
    I am also looking for people with the same problem in order to file a class action suit. I know there has already been one filed in 2007 in Louisianna for the same problem, but it only mentioned a few makes of vehicles, the RAV 4 not being one of them. Toyota lost and had to pay for this problem, and it is binding until 8 years later.

    I am from New Brunswick, Canada, and so I am looking to join a international class action. My truck is 4 years old, and the problem started around 133,000 km. Same thing, oil sludge problem. Need a new engine, cost $6000 with installation. Called Toyota, of course they said the warranty was expired. Can you tell me what Service Bulletin it is, there are a lot of different ones and I could not find this specific one.
  • lanie8lanie8 Member Posts: 4
    The Toyota service bulletin was put out in August 2011 and affects Ravs, Camrys 2007-2009, Camry HV 2007-2011, corollas 2009, Matrix 209 and solaras 2007-2008 with the 2AZ-FE engine. The title is "2AZ-FE Engine Oil Consumption". Rav 2006 thru 2008 VD #s (Look for these within your VIN #) BD31V, BD32V, BD34V, BD35V, ZD31V, ZD32V, ZD33V, ZD34V, ZD35V. The bulletin # if you want to find it is T-SB-0094-11, also T-SB-002411. I only have the first one since it is specific to my RAV4. Hope this is helpful to everyone.
  • kenjie69kenjie69 Member Posts: 1
    Just like what you guys experience. I think i have the same problem with my Rav4. It burns a lot of oil, and this morning my Rav4 start making an engine noise like it whistling when you start the engine and as well as when you step into the gas. I did call the Toyota service in my place and ask if it is normal, but they said i might need to replace the engine. Please if anybody started the class action suit count me in...
  • textworktextwork Member Posts: 2
    I purchased my 2006 rav in May '08 with approximately 22,000 miles. At about 125000 miles my husband noticed that it was burning oil. He changes the oil religiously every 3000 miles. We were having to add one to two quarts at around the 2000 mile mark. Two weeks, ago, at about 1500 miles into the last oil change, the engine blew, the vehicle has 160,000 miles on it. I still have one year on the note so I have no choice but to spend the $3500 for a used engine with 80000 miles. I can't get anything for a car that's not running. I previously owned a 2002 Rav4 which had over 300,000 miles on it before the tranny began getting funky. Because of this, I was sold on this vehicle and searched high and low to purchase the used '06 with low miles. I am now totally disgusted. I don't always keep the receipt for the oil purchases, and since my husband does the oil changes himself, I do not have acceptable records of maintenance. However, rest assure I will stay tuned to this post and and hold on to my repair work. I will gladly participate in a class action suit.
  • kris119kris119 Member Posts: 1
    Same problem here. 2007 Rav4 engine with 92000 miles on it shutoff today while I was going on a highway. Toyota service center quoted $2000 for engine tear down and damage assessment and predicted that it will cost $8000 to repair it. I am stuck without vehicle dont know what to do not sure how much will I get for trade in
    Interested to join the law suit

    Is there a way to get it repaired for around $4000 I am stuck. Dont appreciate the manufacturer not taking responsibility

    Thanks a lot in advance
  • ravowner1ravowner1 Member Posts: 1
    I am interesting in joining, too.

    Noticed my 07 RAV started burning excessive oil at about 82 K when the oil light flickered. I had the same problem with my last Rav, so I knew the drill. Had been assured that Toyota fixed this problem with their engines. Dealer completed a consumption test and determined it was within Toyota's specs. However, it has had the oil light flicker 3 separate times and each time there has been very little oil left in the engine and burned 3+ quarts. Piston slap audible. Toyota has refused to address the problem or investigate further after the problem continued after their consumption test. I had the extended warranty but it got me nowhere with them. Too bad for me that my car had 68 k when the TSB was published.
  • rav4stinkrav4stink Member Posts: 2
    We bought our 2007 4cyl rav4 brand new and have taken good care of it. Noticed at around 55,000 miles it was using oil. Took it to the dealer at 60,100 and they confirmed it but wouldn't do anything because it was outside the waranty window. Called the 800 number and they were no help at all. This thing uses 3 qts between oil changes. Someone please start a class action suit. There is no reason a car should use this much oil at this age. Toyota knows about it but won't stand behind their products. No more toyotas for me.
  • dww5dww5 Member Posts: 1
    We have a 2007 with 85,000 miles and it uses 1 quart per 1800 miles and started this at 75,000. It was under extended warranty buy Toyota would not do the repair because it would have to use 1 quart in 1200 miles to qualify. They showed me the shop manual and the new 2011 can use 1 quart in 600 miles and be within Toyota tolerances. I think this is a EPA issue. Any car that is using this much oil must be polluting. When we took the car in for its consumption test they filled it about a half quart past the full mark.
  • anthony82anthony82 Member Posts: 1
    I just purchased my 2008 RAV4 off lease in December 150K and engine is burning 1 litre of oil for every 1000km driven. Toyota claims this is within their guidelines! Finished the oil consumption test and they determined the following provided that I am out of warranty.

    - They need to complete an engine my cost!
    - If they determine there is an issue, I am responsible for 40% of the repairs.

    Correct me if I am wrong, if there are so many people on this thread that are having similar issues with their RAV4's and all within the same millage (100k-200k), there is clearly defect somewhere and they need to do a recall! If this is how Toyota is going to deal with these ongoing issues, count me in the class action lawsuit.
  • lanie8lanie8 Member Posts: 4
    Mine started at 55,000 miles also -It does fall into the engine/serial numbers that relate to the problem per the Toyota service bulletin. My dealer did fix it since it was confirmed to have started at or around 55,000 miles and they documented the consumption was more than 1 qt every 1,200 miles. It was actually losing 1 qt every 800 miles. They fixed it about 3 weeks ago at their cost as part of the powertrain warranty. I can confirm that the problem got fixed; after 1,000 miles I haven't lost any oil and the oil even looks better. Please get that Toyota service bulletin and demand they fix the problem. I heard that they are not doing a recall on this since the bad publicity on the floor mat issue hurt their business so much. Personally, I think a little honesty would be refreshing for a change.
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