The Fiesta is the most expensive compact in Europe, even w/ worse sound insulation than the VW Polo! LOL
Subcompact, actually...or "b-segment" in europeanese. It is priced lower than the Focus in the UK and I am sure that will be the case in the US, as well. Although, actual transaction prices may go the other way as the outgoing Focus is likely to have far more sales incentives than the new Fiesta.
Excellent comparisons! very descriptive details and comments. Thanks. It validates my opinion of the Focus, although I've read that, along with some improvements, such as a better ride, the steering feel of the Focus has deteriorated some with the most recent ('09 model year?) revisions.
One of my cars is an E30, which I prefer to the E90 in terms of nimbleness and steering feel. Acceleration and electronic gadgetry are less important to me. The E30 also has more usable back seat space and accessibility than the I-Series.
To me, the I-Series is ugly. Since the I-Series is essentially a 2-seater, the new Miata may be a lower cost, lower maintenance alternative. Due to its greater weight and size, however, the latest generation Miata may not be as satisfying to drive as the original one.
In my opinion, in the quest for perfection, safety, and great performance numbers, much of the fun has been dialed out of many of the newer cars. Odd as it sounds, some imperfections can actually lend character to the driving experience.
But lack of low end is no fun! If future technology allows RX-8's rotary powerplant be replaced w/ an electric motor, then that would solve the only problem. B/c RWD low-end power drifting w/ the rear LSD (limited-slip differential) is loads of fun even at SAFE low speeds, just like the superb-steering-feel old Miata's.
If you have the manual and drive it correctly (basically flog it like a 600CC street bike), it's very fast. Just not what people are used to in this country. An electric motor would ruin the fun as well.
With cars approaching 4000 lbs for a compact sedan, saving weight is a major incentive, or should be. Mazda has the engine but only puts it in one vehicle, which is a shame. At a minimum, it should be the normal engine in the MX/Miata. Imagine what 40 more HP and 200lbs less weight would mean for that already fast little car.
In Europe, a c-segment car such as Golf or Focus is considered as mid-size. In fact, I noticed the Focus II (Ford's C-1 platform) is just a tad wider than the 6-ft-wide Lexus LS430.
In case you U.S residents never saw a Focus II, just go to Mexico & see how the Crown Victoria police cars are being replaced by the Focus II sedans, which are imported from Europe.
I am not interested in cars that wide, but still want multi-link rear suspension b/c I can afford it :P
Not sure if the 2008 Americanized Focus switched to electric steering: http://www.carpages.ca/article/2007/09/21/2008-ford-focus-coupe-road-test/show/a- ll "Moving to the new design, some of the ingredients have changed, such as the conversion to electrical power steering... Though much is the same, the new Focus has a different character than the old one, a more sober, mature character. The steering maintains the effortless, light feeling of the old car, but it's less hyperactive. While still precise it feels slightly dulled when going straight ahead, something I'd chalk up to the setup of the electrical power steering to require less inputs when driven at high speeds on the highway and fewer kickbacks from the wheel. The conversion to an electric rack also leaves the wheel mostly devoid of feedback, an area which the old Focus was very strong. The Focus' handling has also been tweaked fairly substantially to increase its stability. The new model now reacts neutrally to input, safely understeering its way out of problem situations, which is in sharp contrast to the current car's desire to oversteer upon throttle lift-off or when trail braking. Our Sport Package equipped Coupe tester featured a rear stabilizer bar for a slightly flatter ride, but there's still a fair deal of body roll."
The old E30 3-series is the closest BMW to the Fiesta -- small exterior w/ simple rear suspension.
Actually, the E36 ti hatch is even more so b/c, like the Fiesta, it rides better over bumps than the E30. But I just hate ti's rear visibility
Only over the last few years did I get to drive the E30 -- both stick & auto w/ 4-cyl. The steering may have lots of feel, but the ratio is slow, & neither was the suspension comfy enough over large bumps. I love its small exterior/turning-radius as well as rear visibility good for both lane-change/passing & backing up. This is also why I like the high-chair big-rear-glass 1-series coupe, but not sure how good its steering feel is. & maybe only the convertible comes w/ the decently comfortable suspension tuning.
I can always enjoy the high chair in my Focus ST.
I did remember some early UK review on the redesigned comfy-riding '06 MX-5 Miata complained about not able to tell if the road is wet or dry from the new electric pwr steering.
When the Fiesta already got so much inner beauty, Ford can't afford to allow too much outer beauty, or rest of the Ford line up won't sell. LOL So, at least for now, we only get the Fiesta sedan w/ cheap-looking tail lights too ugly to match rest of the car? :sick:
When the Fiesta already got so much inner beauty, Ford can't afford to allow too much outer beauty, or rest of the Ford line up won't sell. LOL So, at least for now, we only get the Fiesta sedan w/ cheap-looking tail lights too ugly to match rest of the car?
Sure, if you are buying a 3 year old artist rendering from mainland China.
I think the hatch looks even better than the euro version. If it's priced the same or better than the Scion XD (with similar content), this will most likely be my next new car.
.................I noticed the Focus II (Ford's C-1 platform) is just a tad wider than the 6-ft-wide Lexus LS430.
In my book, (UK), the Focus is shown as 184cm wide and the Lexus LS as 188cm. Yes, the Focus is pretty wide for its sector but still not Lexus-wide, well not quite.
LS 430 (UCF30) Also called Toyota Celsior (JDM) Production 2000–2006 Model year(s) 2001–2006 Engine(s) 4.3 L 3UZ-FE V8 Transmission(s) 5-speed A650E automatic 6-speed A761E automatic Wheelbase 2,926 mm (115.2 in) Length 4,996 mm (196.7 in) (2000) 5,014 mm (197.4 in) (2003) Width 1,829 mm (72.0 in) Height 1,491 mm (58.7 in) Curb weight 1,812 kg (3,990 lb) (2000) 1,810 kg (4,000 lb) (2003) Fuel capacity 84 L (18 imp gal; 22 US gal)
The LS430 is the 2006 model -- @ 182.9cm (6-ft) wide. The current LS is the LS460.
Me too. I have pretty much owned hatchbacks (5 doors) since the mid eighties. I never understood what turned Americans against hatchback styling. There popularity seems to be growing again though.
It's a personal thing, I know, but those Verve tail lights are nasty. I don't like busy. The China ones are OK but I still prefer the US spec taillights. If Ford had gone too far and went with all red, I would not have liked that. I think amber rear turn signals are better from a safety perspective.
I actually prefer the styling of hatchbacks, but only if it's fastback rather than square-back of a wagon. But fastback-shape hatchbacks ruin the structure unless you're willing to ruin the cargo space by installing the rear strut tower like the one in the recent Nissan Z-car. A sedan has continuous cross metal structure (rear-speaker shelf) just behind the rear seat back to keep the whole car stiffer than the fastback hatch, as a UK car magazine noticed the difference in structural stiffness b/t the sedan & hatch versions of the Focus II 4-door.
For convenience & safety of passing & lane-change (to the right), I don't like hatch's lack of width in rear-visibility due to the glass's farther distance from the driver (like tunnel vision) as well as the glass area taken away by the hatch frame. Have you seen how much tinier the Nissan Versa hatchback's rear glass area compare to its sedan counterpart? The '92-95 Civic hatch did the best job preserving rear visibility width.
We do offer a series of menu buttons in the post box so that you can truncate your links to just a few "title" words that you insert. Click on the "URL" button one time to insert the URL string into the post box, and then click again on the "URL" button to close the string and title it.
I was looking through these also and am a bit concerned that I can't find cruise control listed anywhere. Also, they priced the hatch significantly higher then the sedan. Don't much care for when car companies do that.
Where are you seeing prices? Note that in the tire and wheel section of the specs the listings imply that only the sedan will be offered in the "S" trim, so the cheapest hatch would appear to be SE.
Other features on the SES Sport and SEL include a unique floor console, carpeted rear floor mats, ambient lighting, LED driving lamps with chrome bezels, mirror-mounted side marker lamps, heated exterior side-view mirrors, speed control...
You can build one with all the options and accessories also.
My only concern is rear seating and cargo space. I know it is a small car, but it seems to lack rear legroom when compared with the Fit and Yaris. The cargo space is also not near what the Fit can accomodate.
See bamacar's post just above for link with pricing.
Turns out you can get cruise control (Ford is now calling "speed control") if you buy the sport appearance package on the SE. That puts the SE hatch with 6 speed auto at around $17,120. I guess that's not too bad.
Looking at Ford's posted pricing, a few things stand out. For some reason the sedan is priced several hundred dollars lower than the hatch - odd given that the sedan is 13 inches longer and thus must have more materials/weight making it more costly? Perhaps there are standard features in the hatch missing in the sedans? Some things are hard to assess: What exactly goes into the hatch SES "upgrade" package? How do you price the 'push start" feature - is that part of the upgrade package? Either these things are indicated and not too obvious, or they are not indicated at all. Lastly, Ford is pricing Fiestas a bit too high. I'm not sure what they consider the competition, but just taking Ford's own Focus, its sticker is higher, but Ford has been throwing massive rebates to stimulate sales - making the 'on the street price' the same or lower than Fiesta. I was comparing the price to Kia Soul - which has various differences (transmission, fuel economy) but is very similar in size - and similarly equipped it's about $1000 less (with the longer warranty). Naturally, you might say that Kia is junk, but Fiesta is unknown - no track record at all in the US. Same with pricing on XD or Yaris. Perhaps Ford sees the Fiesta more as a sports vehicle - comparing it to Mini?
Naturally, you might say that Kia is junk, but Fiesta is unknown - no track record at all in the US. Same with pricing on XD or Yaris. Perhaps Ford sees the Fiesta more as a sports vehicle - comparing it to Mini?
I would say the Kia is a different type of vehicle, more mini-SUV like the boxy Scion than the Forte or the tC. As far as the track record, I don't think the Fiesta is in a position at this point to be calling anyone else names...not that its bad at all, just unknown...well, sort of. It has been on sale in Europe already where it seems to be doing very well.
Scion pricing starts with a very base package and builds piecemeal items. It starts with a very basic air conditioned box and then adds from there one option at a time. The Mini is similar, as the starting price is below 20k iirc but I have yet to see one for less than 23-25k.
MSRP is well below the focus. Yes, the focus, being in it's 10th model year without a redesign, has a lot of incentives available most of the time. That is not going to be the case with a brand new model, at least not immediately. In the end, the Fiesta will sell for what people are willing to pay. Maybe about a year from now that'll be invoice minus a $1000 rebate, which will be maybe $2000-3000 below the posted MSRP..who knows?
I am kinda surprised they did not come in with the base version at maybe $12,995 to be more comparable to the other subcompacts. BTW, speaking of the competition, has anyone seen where the Mazda2 is going to be priced?
The base sedan is the stripper S model. The hatch starts in SE trim.
The Fiesta competes directly against the Honda Fit, Nissan Versa and Toyota Yaris. Go compare features, price and fuel economy against those and let us know what you think. It is extremely competitive.
Also expect the actual fuel economy to be even higher, just like the Fusion Hybrid.
I paid $24,500 for my MINI Cooper S with taxes and Lo-Jack. I still have the paperwork here somewhere. This was in 2004 though when a S started at 19,000 or so with Cloth or Leatherette interior a good enough sound system, 165 hp and a six speed manual. The new Turbo 4 cylinder also makes about 165 hp but I am sure it is a much more expensive engine then old Supercharged 4 cylinder in mine. That engine was built in Brazil and was used in the Neons outside of the US. It wasn't terribly refined but it has been pretty reliable.
Plenty have tuners have doubled the power in that SC 1.6 liter without grenading too many of the engines.
So did the sporty Focus SVT. In the direct comparison test, the less-expensive quieter Focus SVT not just out-scored the Mini Cooper overall by a significant margin, but is superior in steering/handling while rides smoother!
"It handles almost as crisply as a Porsche Boxster, yet accommodates five people in an exceptionally roomy cabin and delivers a tolerable ride." (Consumer Reports, Oct 2002)
I drove them both & totally agreed.
How well does the simple-suspension Fiesta challenge the other expensive little car -- the Mini Cooper? I don't know.
Unless, of course, your neighbor girl just wanted a cute Mini, & went ahead got a stripped model, while you, being a little inscure w/ the "FORD" badge, just had to stretch it out w/ the mighty 17"s on the Fiesta...
During this year, pretty much all of the '09 Mazda3's were being sold at very low clearance prices w/ std features like 17"s, fog lights, leather steering wheel, 2.0 engine, & the (Focus technology from Germany) Control Blade suspension while being built in Japan for quality/reliability...
The Fit, even w/ the base non-sport suspension, seems to ride worse than the Fiesta.
Both should have rather sporty handling/road-holding, & neither one got meaty steering feel due to electric pwr steering. But my guess is that the Fiesta still got more communicative steering feel than Honda's.
Honda products need better resale value b/c, after test driving these sophisticated German-engineered Ford products, Honda owners might have to get rid of their own cars soon!
Yes, both the Fit & Fiesta are expensive little cars, b/c none of them got multi-link suspension. Ditto the Saturn Astra & the pre-'07 Golf/Rabbit/Jetta (VW hired the Focus engineer to design the Control Blade multi-link suspension on the current-model FWD Golf/Rabbit/GTI/A3/Passat).
The bargains are usually going to be in the older designs, such as the outgoing '09 Mazda3 that you mention. In the prior couple of years, the old Mazda6 was a deal, often costing about the same as a 3. The US Focus is likely to be offering better deals than the Fiesta, until the new one gets here.
Having high-tech suspension, etc. squeezed into little packages actually requires technology. The BMW 1-series is a shrunken E90 3-series, it costs even more to fit braking system that works only nearly as well the the unit in the larger 3-series. That's why BMW could neither built the 1-series much lighter nor price it much lower than the 3-series sedan!
Unlike the bulky '10 Mazda3, the '09 Mazda3 is nearly as compact/light-weight as the Fiesta. Ditto the Focus SVT -- "...being the most fun to drive in the group, the SVT Focus..." (p.34, Oct 2002, Consumer Reports' group test of Focus SVT, Mini Cooper, Civic Si, etc.).
My point is that, when looking back at some of the older-design small cars (including the SVT which costs less but does better than the Mini Cooper), are these new products really making progress?
"This is compounded by the fact that the Jazz’s Achilles’ heel hasn’t been entirely ironed out: the ride quality is still the hardest here. Dealing with potholes and speed humps isn’t a problem – it’s minor surface imperfections which unsettle the Honda. Other handling attributes remain sharp, but we can’t help feeling that the Jazz has lost its edge. While the steering is still direct, changes in direction are accompanied by more body roll than in the Fiesta. The Japanese model isn’t as agile, either."
"Aside from its lacklustre pace, in every other respect the Fiesta is streets ahead. The steering is perfectly weighted, and the car inspires plenty of confidence when turning into a corner, with the nose tracking in rather than pushing wide. There’s barely any body roll, and the playful chassis lets the Ford deliver hot hatch-like handling.
But don’t think for a second it’s not comfortable. Such is the quality of the supermini’s suspension that it offers the smoothest ride in this group. Anyone undertaking a long journey will come out of the Fiesta feeling fresher than in its less relaxing rivals here. There’s only one problem – the Ford isn’t as cheap as it used to be."
"Where the Ford couldn’t be beaten was for comfort and enjoyment at the wheel. You sit low in the Fiesta, with plenty of adjustment in the driving position. And while the small steel rims do nothing for the looks, they enhance the five-door’s great ride, making it a strong long-distance cruiser.
When we reached the end of the dual carriageways and turned on to Somerset’s more challenging A-roads, the Fiesta was equally adept. The steering is perfectly weighted, while through corners the car delivers the best body control in this test."
You keep referencing the Consumer reports test that says the Focus drives better then the MINI. When did Consumer Reports become an authority on fun to drive? That would be the last magazine I would look to for an opinion on fun to drive factor. And was that Cooper S or just a base cooper?
The old body MINI is the most fun to drive and handles the best on the 16 inch non-sport wheels without the stupid RFTs but with the sport suspension. The thing is few people specked the cars out that way and you couldn't get the regular non-RFTs from MINI you had to buy them yourself after the fact. Set up like that nothing really came close to it in the slalom test. You could hit 70 mph plus in a MINI Cooper S like that in the slalom.
The SVT Focus has the same set up as the MkI Euro-spec ST. It rides smoother than the most comfy Mini (the base model w/ 15"s) while still handles better & more fun to drive. At least Consumer Reports points out about ride comfort in addition to some fun-to-driver factors. CR actually hates oversteer & would take points off for that. But I'm pretty sure the Focus oversteers while the Mini tend to stay neutral.
Brit magazines (EVO, etc.) didn't find the ST (SVT) sporty enough when comparing to the Mini Cooper S.
Yes, the current Mini does not have as much steering feel as the earlier one, which I drove one w/ the base suspension & 16" run-flats. Even w/ this set up, I am not complaining doubt about its level of road holding, but the way the sudden forceful up-&-down body movement tossed my belly hard against the seat belt as I hit a dip w/o slowing down... Boy, what a painful life living w/ the Mini.
Another amazing thing about MkI Focus' steering is that, despite quick & sharp, still tracks straight on the fwy in a relaxing manner, while the Mini already caused crashes as some ill-skill girls accidentally steered it onto the left fwy rail.
When the European Ford builds this multi-link suspension platform back in the late '90's, BMW envied it so badly that news leaked out that BMW was about to use the MkI Focus platform for future BMW small cars! BMW's excuse was to save developing cost. But instead, BMW ended up developing a 5-link rear suspension using the similar principle as Focus' 4-link.
When I read this Brit article... (p46-51, 11 June 2003 AUTOCAR) Group Test: Alfa 147 2.0 vs Audi A3 2.0 FSI vs BMW 318ti SE(w/ std sport suspension) vs Mercedes C180K S Coupe
"Individually none is bad, but the general (in)competence level has shocked me because even the best car here doesn't come close to the basic dynamic standards set by the four-and-a-half-year-old Ford Focus. And for the money being asked that's criminal. But is that valid criticism? You bet it is."
"How you rate the BMW Compact depends entirely on how highly crisp styling rates on your prestige-check list. To me (accepting, as we now must, that a Ford is dynamically superior to them all) it's right at the top of the list;..."
It's not moral for a car company to offer cheaper-but-better cars to ruin the other guys' business :P
Except for wheel base, which is nearly 5 inches shorter, the Fiesta sedan has nearly the same dimensions as the current Focus. The fiesta is only 1.4 inches shorter in length, width is the same and height difference is only 0.6 inches.
This would seem to imply to me that the new Focus will probably be in the old Contour size range (which was similar to the 1st gen Mazda6 size). Another interesting aspect is this means Ford will have three cars that are smaller than the old Taurus, where they only had one (the Focus) from 2001 to 2005.
To be honest, I'm not a Ford guy, but I AM a small car guy, having been driving compacts pretty much exclusively since I gave up my 1966 Chrysler Newport.
I'm also an affordable car guy, and the Fiesta certainly has that in its favor for me.
There is a very good chance the Fiesta will replace my Protege5 next year. I commute over 400 miles a week and that 38-40 mpg highway rating looks really attractive.
I wasn't trying to be condescending or anything when I was asking, I was just curious how you thought it might compare between different models. It seems like there are 2 tiers of B-cars...ones that are designed to be very inexpensive (Yaris, Aveo) and then those designed to be more "premium" like the Mini and the Fit. It seems like Ford very much wants to be in the second cool car crowd. I am kind of bummed that the manual only gets a 5 speed instead of a 6 speed, but I am probably the only one who cares. I guess we will see when I can actually drive one in 8 months or whatever.
Compare to the Geman-made Fiesta hatch I drove in California earlier, the one in the show has lower quality feel, at least the seat-height adjustment lever does.
Sure, it's just a pre-production sample...
This Fiesta's split-lens outside mirrors really help covering the blind spots & should make changing lane to the left a breeze! Only wicked car companies would make you waste $ buying those clumsy lane-change blind-spot warning lights/chime/camera. Even the video the camera provides is not in 3D -- how are you gonna judge the distance? They must believe that consumers are stupid enough to fall for this "luxury" option.
Anyway, the rear leg room is almost non-existent. Even the view through the sedan's wider rear glass is blocked off by the tall rear headrests.
Then when I hopped into the similarly-sized (but disgustingly-styled) current Focus, everything -- the front/rear seating room & the forward/rearward visibility -- became a relief.
The Mini Cooper's front passenger headrest also blocks the rear visibility width, unless the seat back is reclined at least half way down.
W/o driving any of the cars in the show, I really like the Lancer sedan w/o the big rear spoiler -- the view out the back is great.
Not surprising that the back seat is pretty useless, as it is listed with almost 5 inches less rear seat leg room than the Focus. As the wheelbase is the big difference in exterior dimensions, the rear leg room appears to be the biggest difference in interior dimensions.
Long ago our first new car was a 1986 Plymouth Horizon, that had a similar wheel base, but had a couple inches more rear leg room than the Fiesta. This was our only car and we had two small children at the time, so we did use the back seat all the time. Ford's own Escort of that era had even two inches more rear leg room than the Horizon, so 4 inches more than the Fiesta, despite a shorter wheelbase and length.
The Contour that was (unjustly, IMO) criticized for it's "cramped" rear seat had 3 inches more legroom in the rear than the Fiesta. That rear seat always seemed (just) adequate to me. The last model year had boosted the Contour legroom to 35.6 inches, just a half inch short of the current Focus and 4.4 inches more than the Fiesta. I don't think they ever stopped calling the rear seat "cramped" though.
It sounds like when the commentary on the Fiesta starts beating the "cramped rear seat" drum again, it'll be justified this time. I just looked at the RX8 specs, even that has an inch more rear leg room than the Fiesta. The Fiesta does just beat the Mini Cooper on rear legroom, by 0.3 inches.
Perhaps the Fiesta should have just been made as a 2 door car?
....big concern is with rear seat leg room. I don't know anyone who routinely halls around adults in their back seats. In the almost 150,000 miles I've owned my current car, adults have ridden in back for a cumulative 2 hours maybe. Who buying a Fiesta would be buying it to hall adults around in the back seat anyway?
I guess the concern with rear seat room is that the competition (Fit) has amazing room for its size, that's the one big plus I see in Fit vs. Fiesta, assuming Ford can keep its recent high quality in the Fiesta.
Comments
Subcompact, actually...or "b-segment" in europeanese. It is priced lower than the Focus in the UK and I am sure that will be the case in the US, as well. Although, actual transaction prices may go the other way as the outgoing Focus is likely to have far more sales incentives than the new Fiesta.
One of my cars is an E30, which I prefer to the E90 in terms of nimbleness and steering feel. Acceleration and electronic gadgetry are less important to me. The E30 also has more usable back seat space and accessibility than the I-Series.
To me, the I-Series is ugly. Since the I-Series is essentially a 2-seater, the new Miata may be a lower cost, lower maintenance alternative. Due to its greater weight and size, however, the latest generation Miata may not be as satisfying to drive as the original one.
In my opinion, in the quest for perfection, safety, and great performance numbers, much of the fun has been dialed out of many of the newer cars. Odd as it sounds, some imperfections can actually lend character to the driving experience.
If you have the manual and drive it correctly (basically flog it like a 600CC street bike), it's very fast. Just not what people are used to in this country. An electric motor would ruin the fun as well.
With cars approaching 4000 lbs for a compact sedan, saving weight is a major incentive, or should be. Mazda has the engine but only puts it in one vehicle, which is a shame. At a minimum, it should be the normal engine in the MX/Miata. Imagine what 40 more HP and 200lbs less weight would mean for that already fast little car.
In case you U.S residents never saw a Focus II, just go to Mexico & see how the Crown Victoria police cars are being replaced by the Focus II sedans, which are imported from Europe.
I am not interested in cars that wide, but still want multi-link rear suspension b/c I can afford it :P
http://www.carpages.ca/article/2007/09/21/2008-ford-focus-coupe-road-test/show/a- ll
"Moving to the new design, some of the ingredients have changed, such as the conversion to electrical power steering...
Though much is the same, the new Focus has a different character than the old one, a more sober, mature character. The steering maintains the effortless, light feeling of the old car, but it's less hyperactive. While still precise it feels slightly dulled when going straight ahead, something I'd chalk up to the setup of the electrical power steering to require less inputs when driven at high speeds on the highway and fewer kickbacks from the wheel. The conversion to an electric rack also leaves the wheel mostly devoid of feedback, an area which the old Focus was very strong. The Focus' handling has also been tweaked fairly substantially to increase its stability. The new model now reacts neutrally to input, safely understeering its way out of problem situations, which is in sharp contrast to the current car's desire to oversteer upon throttle lift-off or when trail braking. Our Sport Package equipped Coupe tester featured a rear stabilizer bar for a slightly flatter ride, but there's still a fair deal of body roll."
The old E30 3-series is the closest BMW to the Fiesta -- small exterior w/ simple rear suspension.
Actually, the E36 ti hatch is even more so b/c, like the Fiesta, it rides better over bumps than the E30. But I just hate ti's rear visibility
Only over the last few years did I get to drive the E30 -- both stick & auto w/ 4-cyl. The steering may have lots of feel, but the ratio is slow, & neither was the suspension comfy enough over large bumps. I love its small exterior/turning-radius as well as rear visibility good for both lane-change/passing & backing up. This is also why I like the high-chair big-rear-glass 1-series coupe, but not sure how good its steering feel is. & maybe only the convertible comes w/ the decently comfortable suspension tuning.
I can always enjoy the high chair in my Focus ST.
I did remember some early UK review on the redesigned comfy-riding '06 MX-5 Miata complained about not able to tell if the road is wet or dry from the new electric pwr steering.
When the Fiesta already got so much inner beauty, Ford can't afford to allow too much outer beauty, or rest of the Ford line up won't sell. LOL So, at least for now, we only get the Fiesta sedan w/ cheap-looking tail lights too ugly to match rest of the car? :sick:
When the Fiesta already got so much inner beauty, Ford can't afford to allow too much outer beauty, or rest of the Ford line up won't sell. LOL So, at least for now, we only get the Fiesta sedan w/ cheap-looking tail lights too ugly to match rest of the car?
Sure, if you are buying a 3 year old artist rendering from mainland China.
http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2009/11/2011-ford-fiesta-us-spec-hatch-and.html
In my book, (UK), the Focus is shown as 184cm wide and the Lexus LS as 188cm. Yes, the Focus is pretty wide for its sector but still not Lexus-wide, well not quite.
I really wanted the 5 door BMW 1 series, but of course that never came over. Ditto for the Civic.
at least the Fiesta should be cheaper!
hopefully they have one you can sit in at the philly car show in February.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
LS 430 (UCF30)
Also called Toyota Celsior (JDM)
Production 2000–2006
Model year(s) 2001–2006
Engine(s) 4.3 L 3UZ-FE V8
Transmission(s) 5-speed A650E automatic
6-speed A761E automatic
Wheelbase 2,926 mm (115.2 in)
Length 4,996 mm (196.7 in) (2000)
5,014 mm (197.4 in) (2003)
Width 1,829 mm (72.0 in)
Height 1,491 mm (58.7 in)
Curb weight 1,812 kg (3,990 lb) (2000)
1,810 kg (4,000 lb) (2003)
Fuel capacity 84 L (18 imp gal; 22 US gal)
The LS430 is the 2006 model -- @ 182.9cm (6-ft) wide. The current LS is the LS460.
The Focus II (available world-wide since 2004) is 184.0cm wide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_(international)
Please, what's so hard about building a car w/ multi-link suspension w/in 170cm width? My 170cm-wide '00 Civc hatch got double-wishbones front & back!
Looks like I have to keep my 170cm-wide '07 Focus ST forever...I'm not interested in fat cars
As far as the tail lights go...
China gets these:
http://www.autoincar.com/2009-2010-ford-fiesta-sedan-world-first-debut-at-2008-g- - - - - uangzhou-motor-show-china/
http://www.chinacartimes.com/2009/06/24/test-driven-ford-fiesta-sedan-review/
http://ford.autonet.com.tw/cgi-bin/file/file_view.cgi?/2009/3/a9030245.ti+13+2+3- 1+/2009/3/a9030245.bd+/f/30001+34+4
Seriously, I still prefer the ones from the Verve concept car:
http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/ford-verve-sedan-concept#5
Me too. I have pretty much owned hatchbacks (5 doors) since the mid eighties. I never understood what turned Americans against hatchback styling. There popularity seems to be growing again though.
For convenience & safety of passing & lane-change (to the right), I don't like hatch's lack of width in rear-visibility due to the glass's farther distance from the driver (like tunnel vision) as well as the glass area taken away by the hatch frame. Have you seen how much tinier the Nissan Versa hatchback's rear glass area compare to its sedan counterpart? The '92-95 Civic hatch did the best job preserving rear visibility width.
http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo- .com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Dbmw%2B1-series%2Bhatch%26fr%3D- ush-mailc&w=200&h=100&imgurl=www.soper-bmw.co.uk%2Fimages%2Fbmw-1-series-c.jpg&r- url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.soper-bmw.co.uk%2Fnew-bmw%2Fbmw-1-series.html&size=5k&name=- bmw+1+series+c+j...&p=bmw+1-series+hatch&oid=c5197fe75be794fe&fr2=&no=9&tt=162&s- igr=11klm7bo1&sigi=11dmpcfnp&sigb=12vc1e77h
You can get one:
http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo- .com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DSaturn%2BAstra%2Bimage%26b%3D121%26ni%3D20%26ei%3Du- tf-8%26pstart%3D1%26fr%3Dush-mailc&w=500&h=375&imgurl=www.carphotosite.com%2Fdat- a%2Fmedia%2F236%2F2008_Saturn_Astra_XR_5-door_004.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.auto- week.nl%2Fforum%2Fread.php%3F4%2C2542101%2C2543159%2Cpage%3D2&size=36k&name=2008- +Saturn+Astr...&p=Saturn+Astra+image&oid=70485d8ebeb67de2&fr2=&no=127&tt=8268&b=- 121&ni=20&sigr=11ukvofhb&sigi=127us9c4f&sigb=13cdjdit1
We do offer a series of menu buttons in the post box so that you can truncate your links to just a few "title" words that you insert. Click on the "URL" button one time to insert the URL string into the post box, and then click again on the "URL" button to close the string and title it.
Darn, I should have thought to go into Wiki and change the LS430 spec. Only joking.
Other features on the SES Sport and SEL include a unique floor console, carpeted rear floor mats, ambient lighting, LED driving lamps with chrome bezels, mirror-mounted side marker lamps, heated exterior side-view mirrors, speed control...
from: http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=31462
You can build one with all the options and accessories also.
My only concern is rear seating and cargo space. I know it is a small car, but it seems to lack rear legroom when compared with the Fit and Yaris. The cargo space is also not near what the Fit can accomodate.
Turns out you can get cruise control (Ford is now calling "speed control") if you buy the sport appearance package on the SE. That puts the SE hatch with 6 speed auto at around $17,120. I guess that's not too bad.
Some things are hard to assess: What exactly goes into the hatch SES "upgrade" package? How do you price the 'push start" feature - is that part of the upgrade package? Either these things are indicated and not too obvious, or they are not indicated at all.
Lastly, Ford is pricing Fiestas a bit too high. I'm not sure what they consider the competition, but just taking Ford's own Focus, its sticker is higher, but Ford has been throwing massive rebates to stimulate sales - making the 'on the street price' the same or lower than Fiesta. I was comparing the price to Kia Soul - which has various differences (transmission, fuel economy) but is very similar in size - and similarly equipped it's about $1000 less (with the longer warranty). Naturally, you might say that Kia is junk, but Fiesta is unknown - no track record at all in the US. Same with pricing on XD or Yaris. Perhaps Ford sees the Fiesta more as a sports vehicle - comparing it to Mini?
I would say the Kia is a different type of vehicle, more mini-SUV like the boxy Scion than the Forte or the tC. As far as the track record, I don't think the Fiesta is in a position at this point to be calling anyone else names...not that its bad at all, just unknown...well, sort of. It has been on sale in Europe already where it seems to be doing very well.
Scion pricing starts with a very base package and builds piecemeal items. It starts with a very basic air conditioned box and then adds from there one option at a time. The Mini is similar, as the starting price is below 20k iirc but I have yet to see one for less than 23-25k.
I am kinda surprised they did not come in with the base version at maybe $12,995 to be more comparable to the other subcompacts. BTW, speaking of the competition, has anyone seen where the Mazda2 is going to be priced?
The Fiesta competes directly against the Honda Fit, Nissan Versa and Toyota Yaris. Go compare features, price and fuel economy against those and let us know what you think. It is extremely competitive.
Also expect the actual fuel economy to be even higher, just like the Fusion Hybrid.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/30/volkswagen-polo-named-2010-european-car-of-th- e-year/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+weblogsinc%2F- autoblog+(Autoblog)
See the Comarison Test links in post #101:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1858ec/100#MSG100
Ford has been struggling to justify the high MSRP by boosting the exterior dimensions of the Focus II. Here's the upcoming Focus III:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/front_website/gallery.php?id=345697
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/front_website/gallery.php?o=0&id=345700
http://newsletter.autoexpress.co.uk/c/16K5fvHEnacOIM3n8t5
Plenty have tuners have doubled the power in that SC 1.6 liter without grenading too many of the engines.
"It handles almost as crisply as a Porsche Boxster, yet accommodates five people in an exceptionally roomy cabin and delivers a tolerable ride." (Consumer Reports, Oct 2002)
I drove them both & totally agreed.
How well does the simple-suspension Fiesta challenge the other expensive little car -- the Mini Cooper? I don't know.
How well does the simple-suspension Fiesta challenge the other expensive little car -- the Mini Cooper? I don't know.
How does it compare to the Fit? The "other other expensive little car?"
(with every option added, including the silly ones and the over-priced $2000 17 inch alloys, I still could not get the Fiesta MSRP quite up to $24K)
During this year, pretty much all of the '09 Mazda3's were being sold at very low clearance prices w/ std features like 17"s, fog lights, leather steering wheel, 2.0 engine, & the (Focus technology from Germany) Control Blade suspension while being built in Japan for quality/reliability...
That's what I called the bargain little car.
It can even look Aston-Martin-ish expensive w/ this Japan-spec grill :P
http://www.uocar.com/view.php?tid=412
Both should have rather sporty handling/road-holding, & neither one got meaty steering feel due to electric pwr steering. But my guess is that the Fiesta still got more communicative steering feel than Honda's.
Honda products need better resale value b/c, after test driving these sophisticated German-engineered Ford products, Honda owners might have to get rid of their own cars soon!
Yes, both the Fit & Fiesta are expensive little cars, b/c none of them got multi-link suspension. Ditto the Saturn Astra & the pre-'07 Golf/Rabbit/Jetta (VW hired the Focus engineer to design the Control Blade multi-link suspension on the current-model FWD Golf/Rabbit/GTI/A3/Passat).
On the plus side, a Cooper S should be able to drive rings around either of those other two cars.
Unlike the bulky '10 Mazda3, the '09 Mazda3 is nearly as compact/light-weight as the Fiesta. Ditto the Focus SVT -- "...being the most fun to drive in the group, the SVT Focus..." (p.34, Oct 2002, Consumer Reports' group test of Focus SVT, Mini Cooper, Civic Si, etc.).
My point is that, when looking back at some of the older-design small cars (including the SVT which costs less but does better than the Mini Cooper), are these new products really making progress?
Jazz (Fit):
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/230958/honda_jazz_es.html
"This is compounded by the fact that the Jazz’s Achilles’ heel hasn’t been entirely ironed out: the ride quality is still the hardest here. Dealing with potholes and speed humps isn’t a problem – it’s minor surface imperfections which unsettle the Honda. Other handling attributes remain sharp, but we can’t help feeling that the Jazz has lost its edge. While the steering is still direct, changes in direction are accompanied by more body roll than in the Fiesta. The Japanese model isn’t as agile, either."
Fiesta:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/230961/ford_fiesta_zetec.html- - -
"Aside from its lacklustre pace, in every other respect the Fiesta is streets ahead. The steering is perfectly weighted, and the car inspires plenty of confidence when turning into a corner, with the nose tracking in rather than pushing wide. There’s barely any body roll, and the playful chassis lets the Ford deliver hot hatch-like handling.
But don’t think for a second it’s not comfortable. Such is the quality of the supermini’s suspension that it offers the smoothest ride in this group. Anyone undertaking a long journey will come out of the Fiesta feeling fresher than in its less relaxing rivals here. There’s only one problem – the Ford isn’t as cheap as it used to be."
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/234316/supermini_economy_hero- - - es.html
Note: old Polo in this comparison
Jazz (Fit):
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/234321/honda_jazz_12_se.html
"...the package provides a mixture of excellence (the slick gearshift) and mediocrity (ride comfort)..."
Fiesta:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/234317/ford_fiesta_econetic.h- - - tml
"Where the Ford couldn’t be beaten was for comfort and enjoyment at the wheel. You sit low in the Fiesta, with plenty of adjustment in the driving position. And while the small steel rims do nothing for the looks, they enhance the five-door’s great ride, making it a strong long-distance cruiser.
When we reached the end of the dual carriageways and turned on to Somerset’s more challenging A-roads, the Fiesta was equally adept. The steering is perfectly weighted, while through corners the car delivers the best body control in this test."
The old body MINI is the most fun to drive and handles the best on the 16 inch non-sport wheels without the stupid RFTs but with the sport suspension. The thing is few people specked the cars out that way and you couldn't get the regular non-RFTs from MINI you had to buy them yourself after the fact. Set up like that nothing really came close to it in the slalom test. You could hit 70 mph plus in a MINI Cooper S like that in the slalom.
Brit magazines (EVO, etc.) didn't find the ST (SVT) sporty enough when comparing to the Mini Cooper S.
Yes, the current Mini does not have as much steering feel as the earlier one, which I drove one w/ the base suspension & 16" run-flats. Even w/ this set up, I am not complaining doubt about its level of road holding, but the way the sudden forceful up-&-down body movement tossed my belly hard against the seat belt as I hit a dip w/o slowing down... Boy, what a painful life living w/ the Mini.
Another amazing thing about MkI Focus' steering is that, despite quick & sharp, still tracks straight on the fwy in a relaxing manner, while the Mini already caused crashes as some ill-skill girls accidentally steered it onto the left fwy rail.
When the European Ford builds this multi-link suspension platform back in the late '90's, BMW envied it so badly that news leaked out that BMW was about to use the MkI Focus platform for future BMW small cars! BMW's excuse was to save developing cost. But instead, BMW ended up developing a 5-link rear suspension using the similar principle as Focus' 4-link.
When I read this Brit article...
(p46-51, 11 June 2003 AUTOCAR)
Group Test: Alfa 147 2.0 vs Audi A3 2.0 FSI vs BMW 318ti SE(w/ std sport suspension) vs Mercedes C180K S Coupe
"Individually none is bad, but the general (in)competence level has shocked me because even the best car here doesn't come close to the basic dynamic standards set by the four-and-a-half-year-old Ford Focus. And for the money being asked that's criminal.
But is that valid criticism? You bet it is."
"How you rate the BMW Compact depends entirely on how highly crisp styling rates on your prestige-check list. To me (accepting, as we now must, that a Ford is dynamically superior to them all) it's right at the top of the list;..."
It's not moral for a car company to offer cheaper-but-better cars to ruin the other guys' business :P
This would seem to imply to me that the new Focus will probably be in the old Contour size range (which was similar to the 1st gen Mazda6 size). Another interesting aspect is this means Ford will have three cars that are smaller than the old Taurus, where they only had one (the Focus) from 2001 to 2005.
I'm also an affordable car guy, and the Fiesta certainly has that in its favor for me.
I am kind of bummed that the manual only gets a 5 speed instead of a 6 speed, but I am probably the only one who cares. I guess we will see when I can actually drive one in 8 months or whatever.
Sure, it's just a pre-production sample...
This Fiesta's split-lens outside mirrors really help covering the blind spots & should make changing lane to the left a breeze! Only wicked car companies would make you waste $ buying those clumsy lane-change blind-spot warning lights/chime/camera. Even the video the camera provides is not in 3D -- how are you gonna judge the distance? They must believe that consumers are stupid enough to fall for this "luxury" option.
Anyway, the rear leg room is almost non-existent. Even the view through the sedan's wider rear glass is blocked off by the tall rear headrests.
Then when I hopped into the similarly-sized (but disgustingly-styled) current Focus, everything -- the front/rear seating room & the forward/rearward visibility -- became a relief.
The Mini Cooper's front passenger headrest also blocks the rear visibility width, unless the seat back is reclined at least half way down.
W/o driving any of the cars in the show, I really like the Lancer sedan w/o the big rear spoiler -- the view out the back is great.
Long ago our first new car was a 1986 Plymouth Horizon, that had a similar wheel base, but had a couple inches more rear leg room than the Fiesta. This was our only car and we had two small children at the time, so we did use the back seat all the time. Ford's own Escort of that era had even two inches more rear leg room than the Horizon, so 4 inches more than the Fiesta, despite a shorter wheelbase and length.
The Contour that was (unjustly, IMO) criticized for it's "cramped" rear seat had 3 inches more legroom in the rear than the Fiesta. That rear seat always seemed (just) adequate to me. The last model year had boosted the Contour legroom to 35.6 inches, just a half inch short of the current Focus and 4.4 inches more than the Fiesta. I don't think they ever stopped calling the rear seat "cramped" though.
It sounds like when the commentary on the Fiesta starts beating the "cramped rear seat" drum again, it'll be justified this time. I just looked at the RX8 specs, even that has an inch more rear leg room than the Fiesta. The Fiesta does just beat the Mini Cooper on rear legroom, by 0.3 inches.
Perhaps the Fiesta should have just been made as a 2 door car?