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Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

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  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    According to the article you still need two more...

    ;-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Hmmm, maybe the article includes Volkswagen trucks and Rolls Royce, which it sold to BMW in '03 under some complicated arrangement that permitted VW to keep Bently.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    my head is spinning if you now regret the Sequoia more. I'm puzzled why you ever sold the Passat if the TDIs are that great.

    My regret is how poor the resale of the Sequoia is holding up. It is a better vehicle than the GMC Hybrid PU. I was able to sell the GMC closer to what I paid than I believe will be the case with the Sequoia. We saw one of the Passat wagons yesterday and lamented selling it. Though it was still not what we wanted. Keep trying to find something we really like.

    I think you are wrong on the potential for the diesel cars in the USA.

    Yes US consumers are cheap and easily sold with Japanese and D3 bling.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126
    I will never take VW seriously at these nonsensical sales claims, they have made them repeatedly over 20 years and they never happen. No reason to start now. VW has very little credibility in the US. Internationally, I know they're better, but still I would place money against this bet every time.
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    I'll take one.......awesome MPG.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    you need to unify management if you are planning on taking over the world:

    Porsche, VW to put all brands under one roof

    The Porsche and Piech families, owners of automaker Porsche and controller of Volkswagen, said on Tuesday that they will create a management unit to oversee all 10 of their auto brands.

    .....It is not known who would be in charge of the new management unit. Ferdinand Piech is chairman at Volkswagen, while Wolfgang Porsche is chairman at Porsche Holding.

    Late Wednesday, Porsche appeared to have abandoned takeover attempts of the much-larger VW.

    Volkswagen owns nine brands--Volkswagen, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Commercial Vehicles and Scania AB.


    http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090506/CARNEWS/905069984

    I think if they try to do much consolidation of management, they will run into the same problems as they have before: individual personality clashes and too much power placed in the hands of a few people who have some pretty wild ideas about what to do with the company.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Porsche has confirmed that it borrowed nearly $1 billion from Volkswagen earlier this year, presumably to help it stave off a potential cash-flow crisis triggered by a massive debt burden estimated at $12 billion to $15 billion."

    Porsche Tries to Deflect Bankruptcy Talk (Inside Line)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How much of that debt is owed to VW? I would think that Porsche would be better off under the VW umbrella. Especially in the USA where they have to pay huge fines for being less than efficient across the line-up. If they were just part of VWA the low mileage mileage could be absorbed by the superior mileage offered with VW TDI vehicles.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I would think that Porsche would be better off under the VW umbrella.

    VW Seals Deal for Porsche in Reversal of Fortune (Wall St. Journal).

    Looks like Porsche's plans to swallow VW backfired. More debt and more stock to be watered down to pay for everything.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think that is the best position for both. Porsche trying to run VW and maintain their position in the World of fine sports cars would be difficult. If VW just leaves Porsche alone and does not try to suck them dry it should be good for both. Toyota is starting to look like GM more every day. 2010 may be the year for VW to top the others.

    I just wish we had their full line of diesel vehicles in the USA. They have a small van that is really nice. Not that POC they buy from Chrysler.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It's funny how 42% results in a merger. I guess VW is trying to buy the shares controlled by the Emirate of Qatar.

    "Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn, who is expected to run the combined entity, issued a statement on Friday saying the two were "jointly on track to become the worldwide number one."

    Volkswagen To Buy 42 Percent Stake in Porsche by End of 2009 (Inside Line)
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Reports and reader comments suggest that Toyota's quality and reliability are slipping. Meanwhile, VW is improving in these areas. While there's probably still a considerable gap in Toyota's favor, if these trends continue they may help VW to catch, and possibly overtake, Toyota in worldwide sales.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I'd been thinking much the same thing. VW's competitive cars feel more substantial than the Japanese. Reliability is teh one thing that's kept me out of them and I'm thinking it won't be long before it's time to jump.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Today I drove a Corolla rental. I can't bring myself to say I had the pleasure of driving it, because it was truly very ordinary. I don't doubt that it's a great transportation value, but it provides next to zero driving enjoyment. There's no comparison to how much more communicative and better feeling the steering is of a VW Golf or Jetta, which I've also driven. The ride handling combination of the VW is also notably better, in my estimation. There's no question I'd forego Toyota's vaunted, though steadily diminishing, reliability for a Volkswagen.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    what has happened to GM and what very similar thing seems to be starting to happen to Toyota, perhaps the question should be "Should VW try to overtake GM and Toyota?".

    The only difference between VW and Toyota is that when Toyota cuts costs it does so in the cabin, while VW does so under the hood. High tech powertrains produced by cheap, poorly trained labor in 3rd world countries using cheap parts are not the formula for success, which is the mentality that VW must overcome.

    Low tech powertrains produced by skilled but expensive labor and incorporated in vehicles with bargain basement interiors will not win Toyota too many contests in the long run either.

    Seems to me GM has many of the problems of BOTH companies.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Word is they've done it. We'll see how this goes..
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    Read that earlier.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    If you're in the LA area, an active blogger, on Twitter and want to drive a VW Toureg for 1 week in December, please email pr@edmunds.com by Friday December 4, 2009

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  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Saw a VW I hadn't seen in ages on the road today - a Jetta TREK edition. Remember those? I always thought that was a bad combination for a car with VW's reputation for lack of reliability - "if your car dies on the road just hop on the bicycle!"

    When the heck did they make those?
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,471
    I think those are from ca. 1996-98.

    When I was in school, my roomate had a Jetta of that era - it was only a few years old then. I swear that thing was in the shop every other week.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Good thing they sold a bike with them. ;-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,564
    from a news story today:

    "Ambitious Volkswagen is preparing a massive assault on the U.
    clear pixel
    S. market—the company wants to grow sales from something like 220,000 units annually to 800,000 by 2018. At the Los Angeles auto show, we spoke with U.S. CEO Stefan Jacoby and a few other insiders.

    The cornerstone of Volkswagen’s U.S. strategy is the new Chattanooga, Tennessee, plant, which will build VW’s Camry-fighter, a.k.a. NMS (New Mid-Size Sedan). It will make its debut at the 2011 Detroit auto show. While this large sedan of over 192 inches is yet unnamed, Jacoby confirmed the smaller, Mexico-built NCS (New Compact sedan) will be called Jetta. Slated for a U.S. debut in June 2010, it will be exported to Europe in late 2010, where it might receive a different name. VW will continue to offer a GLI, based on the new Jetta."
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    with the express goal of pushing future VW Corp sales past those of Toyota:

    VW will buy 19.9% stake in Suzuki, aims to pass No. 1 Toyota

    December 9, 2009 - 2:31 am ET
    UPDATED: 12/9/09 7:15 a.m. ET

    TOKYO/FRANKFURT (Reuters) -- Volkswagen AG will buy a one-fifth stake in Suzuki Motor Corp. for $2.5 billion, tapping the Japanese firm's expertise in small cars and dominance in India as VW seeks to become the No.1 automaker.

    ....(VW chairman) Piech's top lieutenant, VW CEO Martin Winterkorn, was hopeful the Suzuki alliance would help catapult the Wolfsburg-based carmaker past industry leader Toyota Motor Corp. ahead of plan.

    "If that succeeds faster (than 2018), we're happy," a grinning Winterkorn told reporters as he sat next to Suzuki's nearly 80-year-old CEO Osamu Suzuki at a Tokyo press conference.

    CEO Suzuki repeated that he did not intend the company he has led for three decades to come under VW's control.

    "I don't want you to misunderstand: Suzuki is not becoming a 12th brand for Volkswagen," Suzuki said when asked whether the company might get a German CEO in the future. "I don't want other folks telling me how to do things."

    ....In the first six months of 2009, Volkswagen sold 3.265 million vehicles and Suzuki sold 1.15 million. Their combined sales of 4.415 million units would be larger than top-ranked Toyota's 3.564 million.

    ......In contrast to a potential pair-up between PSA and Mitsubishi Motors, which many regard as a union of the weak, Volkswagen and Suzuki are regarded as being among the stronger automakers thanks to their big exposure to China and India.

    While major Western markets have suffered one of their worst years on record, booming sales in China and India are providing a lifeline.


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20091209/COPY01/312099980/1193

    Kind of makes you pause to hear that Suzuki sold 1.15 million vehicles worldwide in the first six months of the year, given what a tiny TINY presence they have in the U.S.

    I hope that VW doesn't meddle with Suzuki's product decisions too much, but it doesn't sound like that's their intent. Even though VW does want the sales numbers and may eventually make Suzuki a subsidiary, this does sound more like a collaboration than other large corporate purchases of recent years.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It could also be to match Toyota's 19% of Subaru. The emerging markets of China and India are going to be much easier to gain ground. With all the regulations and roadblocks to building high mileage vehicles for sale in the USA, other markets are much more likely candidates. VW can sell the high mileage diesels in the rest of the World without the ridiculous emissions crap that cut mileage and only cut emissions by very small amounts. By global plan we are being pushed into 3rd World status here.

    PS
    VW passed Toyota in the 3rd quarter without Suzuki numbers.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Yes, I believe there has been some debate about whether VW really passed Toyota in Q3, or whether VW used numbers that made it an apples to oranges comparison with Toyota's sales figures.

    It is smart for VW to leverage Suzuki's small and microcar sales in Asia rather than try and develop its Polo and Up! lines to increase sales in those areas. Although I did notice in my quick glance over a different article that VW does have significant plans for the Up! in the long term in that region.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The most important factor is VW is still making a profit. Toyota is going into a second straight year losing money. I was surprised that Suzuki sold over a million vehicles so far this year. Are they all little mini type utility vehicles?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Suzuki is the kei-car KING in east Asia. And BTW those 1.15 million sales were just Jan-June 2009!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,471
    And is this only 4 wheeled vehicles? Suzuki makes a lot of bikes
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Depending on the lost sales resulting from the the sudden accleration problem and the effects on Toyota's reputation for quality, VW is likely to gain on Toyota. Whether it will overtake it is another matter, but it's very doubtful that VW will outsell Toyota, world wide, this year.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think VW did outsell Toyota in 2009. I was reading something that said they sold the most vehicles in 2009. Well ahead of projections. I think the Toyota mess will help GM more than VW.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    While I don't have official numbers, I think VW outsold Toyota worldwide for one month in '09, or maybe one quarter, but not for the whole year. Can someone clarify this with actual sales figures.

    It seems to me that if VW had been #1 in sales last year, we would have heard more about it in the media.

    Going forward, though, this sticky accelerator problem will negatively affect Toyota sales. For example, some people who would have automatically bought another Toyota, or their first Toyota, will now cross shop other brands. Here in the U.S., GM, Ford, Honda, Nissan and VW (not necessarilly in that order) should all benefit from Toyota's problem.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I would think Hyundai and Ford more than anyone else.
  • spartanman2spartanman2 Member Posts: 61
    I agree with the previous post regarding Ford and Hyundai; especially Ford. VW has some good looking cars, but I cannot see them gaining signifcant market share with their current and future lineup.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think VW still has their emphasis on emerging not declining markets. The US and Japan are on the decline. I would not look for them to expand here much beyond the new factory in TN. I would jump on the Amarok TDI if they bring it to the USA.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Yeah, I forgot Hyundai.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2011
    But VW sure knows how to get my attention.

    image

    Bulli! VW's New Four-Wheeled Cast of Characters

    2011 Geneva Motor Show: Volkswagen Bulli Microbus Concept (Inside Line)

    If only it had sliders like the last "Microbus" concept.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2011
    I like the Bulli better than any of the other mini boxes. With the 2.0L TDI it would be a winner. I think VW is designing the best looking vehicles on the market today. I don't think beating Toyota is as important as reviving the US market to their vehicles. With their mileage leading diesels in every model.

    image
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I hope they actually built that thing.

    I remember going to the NY Auto Show in 2001 (on Edmunds' nickle - won in a contest) and seeing the microbus concept. I was SO disappointed they didn't build it!
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2011
    Looks like you are going to get your wish.

    Still wish it had sliders, but I'll have to put it on the maybe list.

    VW Big Profits, Microbus A Go (AutoObserver)
    image
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I doubt they will build it as an EV like being shown at Geneva. Hopefully they can get the 2.0L TDI inside that bonnet. If they build it on the Golf platform it should be a slamdunk.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2011
    Well, that would probably be a deal killer. :-)

    The minivan is making a slight clunk now and then shifting, but if I keep ignoring it, maybe we can get another 5 or 10 years out of it. I loved my Bugs and my sister's New Beetle drove good. Did several 9 hour trips in it and it was comfy driving and riding. The problems (mostly electrical) she had with it make me wonder though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You would not want it as an EV would you? That seems very limited in usability. Probably put in gas first to see what the demand is like. Then add the diesel. I would look for the TDI version to outsell the gasser, as it does in the Jetta Sportswagen. All speculation. As an EV I don't see much market. I think the Leaf will have killed much of the desire for an EV long before 2013.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2011
    We like road trips so a hybrid would be better. Our second car really should be a golf cart. I think a 5 mile EV range would work fine here for us since there's no commuting going on. Hopefully I'll be on my bike shortly for the grocery runs; it's 1.5 miles away on the back streets. Everything else is within easy walking distance.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126
    The writeup I saw had that VW EV version with a 3200 lb battery...OUCH! The whole vehicle shouldn't weigh that much!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The laws of physics will dictate the size of the battery. To go 186 miles will take one heck of a big battery. The VW concept was to get people's attention. I think it was successful. I like the looks. Even with a small gas engine getting 35 MPG combined would be good.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126
    Yes, lots of EV 'concepts' out there that won't see the light of day. Only problem I have with this VW is that they took too long to make it. It's exactly the kind of car that VW needs, as opposed to cheapened Jettas and Passats.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If VW sizes the Bulli between the Honda Element and Toyota xB, it should be just right. With decent ground clearance it could fit my ideal for a vehicle. Of course a small diesel yielding 40 MPG on the highway would be near perfect. They have the perfect seats for it used in the Golf GTI. Are you listening VW?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The VW Dune was my favorite Concept from them, up until this Bulli.

    image
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    If VW does decide to build these cars, hopefully they will sell better than the Elements did for Honda.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That still amazes me that Elements quit selling.
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