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Comments
RL at $50k is fairly priced relative to its competition. Not a bargain, but not exorbitant either.
Well, it is a bargain relative to 530i and E320, but not relative to STS, A6, and and probably not to the upcoming M35 and GS300.
I guess people are used to Honda/Acura underpricing their competition in almost every segment. That's not the case with the RL.
I am sure there are many others in the same position (skiers like myself who live in southern California and go to Mammoth a lot and almost everyone who lives in the north with winters and wants a luxury car).
In this category, the RL is the easy winner (especially when you factor in reliability) which is why I just bought one.
Infiniti M already looks dated to me since it tries to walk on the foot steps of (perhaps) the most successful Infiniti (G35), a car that has been around for a few years. And with plastic dominated rear end. The tail lamps are huge.
Lexus GS while trying to be different still manages to bear strong resemblance with Maxima (side and rear profiles), and some styling elements convey Saab. But in a world with variety it is rather difficult to create a completely new theme.
Incidentally it seems like numbers of like minded car buyers may be pretty large since the most reliable japanes imports continue to eat away market share from others!
A month ago, I would have sort of agreed with you, even though I've always liked the new RL. However, now that I've owned mine for over a month, I can say that every time I look at it, I like it a bit more. I believe it has the kind of styling, that while it won't grab you immediately like some, will wear very well.
Overall, Acura should have taken a clean sheet approach to building a car comparable to a Lexus 430 - unfortunately Honda rarely invests in R&D to build a car platform on a standalone basis.
Expect inventories to build up very soon as Acura moves into full production mode, and for prices of RL to come down to the mid forties.
A month ago, I would have sort of agreed with you, even though I've always liked the new RL. However, now that I've owned mine for over a month, I can say that every time I look at it, I like it a bit more. I believe it has the kind of styling, that while it won't grab you immediately like some, will wear very well.
I respectfully disagree with the above statement. Having owned and driven $50K cars before (i.e. just traded in 03 BMW 530 that cost over that) and having owned and driven the 05 RL for over a month, the RL is certainly in that class and does "feel" and more importantly drive like it. And it is more reliable certainly than the European competition. I wish like others that this class of car was more like $45K but the fact is that market conditions have this class at or above $50K so that's what it takes to enter.
I think too many are hung up on the fact that the RL wears an Acura/Honda badge just like too many are hung up on BMW and Mercedes badges and think they are always great cars because of those badges. The proof is in how the car drives and what it brings to the owner/driver while being driven. In the case of the RL it is very worthy of being in this price class in that context, irrespective of badges. As always IMHO.
This car has a much firmer, sportier ride than the Mercedes E320. I sold my 2000 E320 and bought the RL. I considered the exterior styling on the 2000 E320 more forward looking than the 2005 E320. The new E320 in my opinion looks like my grandma's car. I was ready for a change. The car with the same equipment as the RL would have cost $60,000. For what??? So I could have the M-B badge on the hood and pay those lovely enormous repair bills when it was out of warranty?? I buy my cars, not lease, and that is important to me.
The RL is cheap for what you get on it.
Lynnminny
Any ideas of whether this phone will work well with the RL?
Acura really had a chance to come up with a very strong car (which actually could have compared reasonably well with a 7 series or S class which certainly have their own set of flaws/compromises). However, when you look at the acceleration, braking distances and the back seat and trunk space this does not create a distinctive edge vs. the competition. I like the front end styling but think the rear definitely mirrors the Accord which would be okay if the styling were not so awkward. More important, I agree with the posts that the car does not compare all that favorably with the TL. Put the SH-AWD on a TL and it compares fairly well and especially on the performance and interior space metrics. The post that back seat and passenger space don't matter because someone is going to just drive it themselves is flawed in my view. This is Acura's top of the line vehicle and there should not be so many compromises (I don't want a big Lexus either -- I want a first rate luxury performance auto which will seat 5 and brake, accelerate and handle better than the peers. All the electronic/tech stuff is nice but first Acura must win on these criteria.
I can't understand why people would accept these shortcomings and rush out and pay MSRP for the car. However, my objective is not to talk down the car and discourage people from buying it (causing the price to fall). Rather, I am just disappointed because I like Acuras (drive one now) and especially like them vs. BMWs, and even Mercedes which have major reliability issues and have been consistently overpriced. I wanted to buy an RL but may have trouble convincing myself it is the right car even if prices come off of MSRP. TL with SH-AWD is definitely on my mind.
Any ideas of whether this phone will work well with the RL?
A month ago, I would have sort of agreed with you, even though I've always liked the new RL. However, now that I've owned mine for over a month, I can say that every time I look at it, I like it a bit more. I believe it has the kind of styling, that while it won't grab you immediately like some, will wear very well.
I'm in the market for a new car now and have been looking at the RL really, really hard. And the more I look at it, the more I come away thinking that it's just a really nice premium brand car; not a luxury car. From the exterior, there's NOTHING that stands out about it. That's my and my girlfriend's biggest worry, as shallow as that sounds. It doesn't turn heads. It simply disappears in the sea of uninspired looking cars.
I currently drive a 300M Special (black) and keep it spotless. My girlfriend says when we're out she always sees people staring at the car or turning to look. I don't usually notice because I'm driving. One day we were out for a drive on the freeway and a guy caught up to us and lingered around for a bit then came alongside us and gave us the thumbs up. I have noticed a few times when people see me coming onto the freeway, they speed up to catch me, loiter around to get a good look then head on their way. I get compliments on a regular basis at work and often times will get people coming over at gas stations to get a good look and ask about the car. I don't foresee that happening in the RL. My girlfriend doesn't want to lose that, and I don't either, to be honest.
But back on point, I am always looking for something in the RL to justify me giving up my Special for it but nothing ever stands out as being worth it; size and looks being the biggest detractors. I'm also looking for what make's it a luxury car. If you laid out the feature list of the RL and my car, they would probably be equally as long and the RL doesn't really have an "advantage" per se. We both have DVD based satellite nav, satellite radio, power everything, Xenon projector beam headlights, etc. And the [300M] Special has way more interior space. I believe I read it in here that the RL has 99.1 cubic feet of passenger space. Mine has 105.1. If you took the badges off mine, would that make it a "luxury" car? True luxury is about making the driver and his passengers as comfortable as possible, not gadgets.
Performance/Safety? Well, nothing remarkable there. The nod goes to the RL for straight line speed, but I believe the nod goes to me for the fun stuff. I don't know the figures on the RL, but Motor Trend got a 64.8MPH slalom speed in mine. Car and Driver (or Motor Trend) got a .89G skidpad (Chrysler claimed a .91G; depends on the diameter of the skidpad). And Car and Driver got a 60 - 0 stopping distance of 114' (that's Porsche/Corvette territory!). Top speed is supposed to be 155MPH. We both have electronic brake force distribution, ABS, etc.
I could go on and on for features, but I hope I've made my point. My car stickered for $33K+ in 2002 (not what I paid). Where's the $17K+ premium in the RL? The ride wasn't remarkably quieter or better. Noise levels were actually about the same, which was quite shocking considering the Audio Pilot was on in the RL. (I am now convinced that the feature only works when you're listening to the radio.)
But, I'm not bashing on the RL at all. It's definitely not a bad place to spend some seat time. I just fear I'd get bored driving it. It's been 2 years with my car now and I still love it just as much as I did when I drove it off the lot the first time, if not moreso. It just handles like crazy.
If you and your girlfriend need that to feel good, then forget about the RL. The RL is for drivers who know about value and enjoying the car for what it is, not for what people who need others to look at them.
Acura isn't really in the business of "in your face" cars, particularly in high volume cars, although some may argue that the TL qualifies there. Sure, that's a disadvantage to someone who needs that thrill. But it's not a disadvantage to someone who can appreciate a subtle but attractive design.
Chrysler is pretty much in the business of "in your face" cars... other than minivans and trucks, it's the only market niche in which they've been able to be relatively successful. However, today's "in your face, gotta have it" cars often become yesterday's news in 2 or 3 years. And if your marketing plan relies on a series of runaway hits that have a 2 or 3 year shelf life and then fade in a big way, you'd best hope that you don't miscalculate on your next "in your face" design, because if the market doesn't take to it, you have little to fall back on.
As for the car that started this exchange, the 300C has styling that's extremely edgy and polarizing, and it will probably age very quickly, when people looking for edgy designs tire of it and move on to the next big thing.
Anyway, based on your comments, you clearly don't want an RL. It's not intended as a "beat you over the head" design, which seems to appeal to you. But the RL won't be burnt out and tossed aside for the next fad in a couple of years, either.
And I'm not alone in thinking that the RL is NOT an example of "value." It's about $5K - $8K overpriced for what you're getting. The same for it's competitors. The big difference is the perceived prestige factor of a Benz or Beemer. That alone is enough to get people to open up their checkbooks for the overpriced cars. There's no prestige factor in an Acura. They were building prestige back in the days of the Legend, but through it right in the trash with the introduction of the Vigor and, later, the RL.
And the RL is not for "people who know about value." The Honda/Acura fans that "know about value" buy the TL versus, say, a 3-series or 5-series (or the RL, actually). The RL is for people that have to have the "top of the line." And, yes, they want to be seen in it. Unfortunately, they are going to blend in. People like you and I who are "in the know" are going to know what the RL driver has and will show interest, but the majority of people who just want to get from point A to point B will walk/drive past an RL without giving it a second glance. Their biggest question about the car being, "What trim level is SH-AWD? Is that above the EX trim? Hmph... I didn't know they changed the Accord already."
I don't know about anybody else, but if I spend that kind of money on a car, I don't want to feel like I'm driving an also-ran. Didn't you read some of the owners' comments of how after a few weeks the car is "growing on them?" A car isn't supposed to "grow on you!" It's supposed to spark a fire in your heart or a twinkle in your eye as soon as you see it, or at least as soon as you buy it, not "grow on you." That's like a guy saying, "Yep. That's my wife. She sure is average looking, but I married her anyway!" Or a lady having a barely average looking guy after her for so long that she's gotten used to him and desides to give him a date. That's just not how it's supposed to be. You get what I mean?
And, again, I'm not slamming the RL. I'm just very disappointed at the lack of effort Honda put forth in giving us this car.
You can't be faulted for being indirect...or subtle. This is a car forum, but what you've described are feelings about yourselves. Let's forget your current ride, for what you're saying is that anything that calls attention to both of you, and reflects well on you, is the soup of the day. It could be your girlfriend's hair style or your necktie. It must generate a good bit of internal pressure waiting to evoke the next compliment.Imagine how relaxed you both would be in an Rl, being the observers, not the observed.
The 300C is a pretty neat car. I did a 2 day road trip in a friend's and got to drive it a quite a bit. Loved the power, but am afraid it's night and day when you compare the interior design, fit and finish, handling etc. of the 300 and the RL. Just my $.02. Other experiences may vary. :^)
By the way, my wife told me that I "grow on her" after we got married and that was 32 years ago, ha. ha.
Well, I hope you fine a car that will give you that fire in your heart like your present 300.
I'm afraid I've misrepresented myself. My girlfriend and I aren't all about attention (At least I'M not. There's no such thing as a woman that's not all about attention, but I digress...) I didn't by my car looking for attention at all. In fact, I didn't expect to ever get ANY attention in it. I figured everyone would dismiss it as just another 300M. Pleasantly, that wasn't the case.
We aren't the type to have to be out on the town and in the scene. We're not flashy dressers or anything of the sort. Our idea of a night out is a movie and Chinese restaurant. We're about as low key as you can get. What I was trying to say (and failed miserably) is that we've grown accustomed to receiving positive vibes about my car and want the next purchase to produce the same.
Heck, it could just be the way I keep it immaculate. Now that I think back over the years, I've had a Geo Prizm, Toyota Corolla, two Chevy S10s, a Mustang GT, and this car. All were kept in pristine condition and all garnered positive comments. Looking at the pattern, I probably could "rock" an RL and get good comments. :-) Then again, I also had an Accord. I kept it looking just as good and nobody EVER commented on it that I can remember. Those were boring times on the road. hehe ;-)
When I talk to my friends about these things I pose a question to them in the end to help them sort out these "comparison" struggles. Simply put, I say to them, hey, if there is no price difference in any of the cars that you are considering, which would you choose? It seems like a simple question, but, it gets down to the heart of the matter (i.e. what experience do you like the best?) For those friends, the answer has, many times turned out to be the BMW (of course they almost always have to include one in their comparison and test drives). Then of course, I ask them a second question saying basically that, based on their decision, are they willing to pay $XXXX more for it than their "second" or "third" choice (if that vehicle happens to be more than those choices). If not, then they know what they can not get, if so, then they will be happy with the vehicle they've chosen.
Either way, when you have to plop down your money, a simple set of specifications doesn't do it. You end up basing your decision on a variety of other criteria. It may even be that you love the car but hate the dealerships or servicing experience. Who knows. But the automobile market knows that people that have special preferences for luxury and/or performance are willing to pay that extra premium for it. Only you can decide what's best for you.
The Chrysler mafia car that's the current press darlin looks neat "today" but which one is better built, better engineered, more refined and will hold up longer. The 300 is one of the best domestic makes currently but on a world platform against others it's only average. The interior still says domestic which to me is plasticky and cheap lookin. If you like "bling" buy the cheaper doemstic, if you care about quality you'll understand what Acura's all about. People who care what others think are shallow, insecure souls (LA numero Uno) and they can keep buying their lower quality Euro. brands, those of us who know will buy what's best for us..
The Japanese are the most thorough, detail driven automotive engineers in the business and coming from an engineering and racing heritage tradition as Honda my money is on this one.
Well, if that comparison is really valid, the Acura would win on the value proposition alone.
However, I do not think the RL was aiming at the Big German Flagships. All that I have read about the Acura Flagship (for years) is that it had set its sights on the Audi A6, or perhaps the BMW 5 and the E Class Mercedes. Truth be told, the FWD A6 and the RL were probably contenders. I doubt that folks who looked seriously at RWD 5 series Bimmers cross shopped the RL (in droves).
The new RL seems to be keen to be compared with the new A6 3.2. Equip both of them to the $50K MSRP and they seem "competitive" (to me anyway).
The RL surely would win the features and options race and the A6 probably edges the RL on being more of a drivers car. Since I haven't yet driven the RL, I am not able to defend these comments.
The A6 board certainly has more than one poster who chose the A6 over the RL due to the behind the wheel experience. I suspect the Audi is "sportier" either by design or by heritage -- but the SH-AWD certainly has to be a great technology and in some respects an edge for the RL.
If a sales person compared the RL with the high buck Germans (or even the high buck Japanese), I would have to wonder.
The RL appears to be a very high value car -- and a luxury sporting car, to boot. I just can't see it entered into a comparison contest with the 7 Series BMW or the A8 or the big S class Mercs.
But, as usual, I could be wrong.
Honda/Toyota/Nissan are, on the other hand, newcomers who have, arguably notwithstanding performance, established themselves as the undisputed leaders when it comes to factors of quality and reliability. That said, it stands to reason that, the cache brands of Acura/Lexus/Infiniti must, pay their dues, via the test of time, before they're rightfully anointed, by the buying public, as "true" prestige products.
The enlightened few that are cognizant of the value Acura/Lexus/Infiniti offers, and who, capitalize on this knowledge by buying these products...are, in my opinion, substantially ahead of the game!
Adding to the problem are manufacturers whose flagships have been less impressive than their middle tier products. I don't think anyone would argue that the last generation RL was a less admired car than its little brother, TL. And the Infiniti Q45 has yet to gain a real foothold, while little sister G35 is a darling of the automotive world.
To be honest, of the newer luxury namplates only Lexus has achieved the distinction of offering a line-up of LS, ES, and RX styles that are ALL considered among the most desireable in their class.
If one were to be dispassionate, we'd probably all just run out and buy the Lexus that met our needs and budget. But we ARE passionate, and so a long list of manufacturers lure us with a combination of real value and illusion.
Whatever it is we end up driving, we'll be replacing it in three to five years. Some of us chasing the newest innovation, While the rest of us will be ardently loyal to a carmaker we fell in love with in high school.
Obviously, not a scientific survey of public opinion, but it speaks to me at least of the car's general appeal. It's not an "edge" car like the 300C (which I like, but many hate).
But most of all, the car has been trouble-free and handles beautifully.
Specifically, I do expect distinctive styling, luxury appointments, some level of spaciousness and comfort and above all performance. The top of the line Acura should have world class braking and acceleration (not necessarily 5 second 0-60 but better torque and at least be able to outperform a TL). It should also allow me to pick up a another couple for dinner or take my family on a trip with plenty of backseat space and trunk space (say equivalent to a Mercedes E320). I honestly cannot understand why the car is lacking in these areas when they had to know that these are key issues for many of the buyers they are targeting. The interior is nicely appointed and the SH-AWD helps close the handling gap which has been a problem for Acura but a top of the line luxury performance car should have the space/comfort to truly be luxurious and the performance credentials to truly be a performance car (not struggle to do as well as many $30,000 cars for acceleration/braking, etc.).
I don't really give a damn if other people notice the car. It actually is even worse if they do (as some people have been bragging) if the car does not truly have the goods. Where I come from, we call that big hat but no cattle.
Prior to the TL, I came pretty close to getting a Boxster S as a "fun" car in 2002, but opted for the Honda S2000 and had absolutely no regrets. Saved $25k+, matched the performance of the Porsche and required a grand total of 4 oil changes in 2.5 years.
But, when I took my TL infor service last week and was given an RL to test drive, the Honda/Acura value equation was missing. At least compared to the TL or S2000. If faced with the choice of a $50k RL or $60k 545i, I would jump for the 545i. The RL was just too little more than my current TL in luxury, and LESS in performance. Granted, I am partial to a manual transmission and might feel differently if the RL were so equiped.
I think the RL is a very nice car, but, like the former RL, I think falls into a "tweener" situation where it doesn't provide the performance or prestige of its upper class competitors, nor does it look or feel like a $15k upgrade to the TL. I hope for Acura's sake, it doesn't suffer a pre-mature death, but even the service manager confessed that he doesn't see the value.
As for the great V6 in the RL, I really dont see the point. It's nice to have all that hp from a 3.5 V6 but the car doesnt outperform other cars in its price range, nor does it get significantly better mileage. Because of it's high curb weight the car barely outruns much weaker V6 competitors. Cars like the A6 and STS equipped with weaker six cylinder engines will probably run 0-60 in the mid to upper 6 second range.
Surely you mean the 8 cylinder STS as the 6 cylinder is a slug compared to the RL.
Over the years I've had many different kinds, including Rolls Royce, Mercedes, Cadillac, Volvo, Honda, Toyota, Chrysler, among others. I bought the '05 because:
1) It had the nicest quality and feel of any I've sat in or driven in recent memory.
2) It is specifically NOT flashy in any way.
3) It'll equal or outperform almost anything in reliability. I don't want a car with a warranty, I want a car that does not NEED a warranty.
The most interesting comment I've heard yet was from a client after I gave her a ride. She owns a Chrysler dealership, BTW. "Nice looking car, good lines. What is it?"
-This was sparked because all my cars are stripped of their badges/logos and repainted for cleaner lines-
I replied: "Thank you. I made it myself. Me and Honda."
For me, anyway, this car is close to perfect. Now give it Toyota's HSD and I'll buy another one tomorrow.
Peace folks!
I doubt the RL will die a premature death but I am really hoping Acura pays attention to some of the concerns being raised. I would really rather buy an Acura than a BMW, Mercedes or Audi, but it looks like it may have to be a TL (wait for 2006 and hope for SH-AWD).
Likewise, we should NOT compare TL to Accord because they are in different segments, but they are at or near tops in "value" within their respective segment.
Also, "value" has both objective and subjective components. A person who is financially well off and does not mind spending more for whatever reasons (including prestige, new technology, bragging rights or simply personal satisfaction) would not care about the incremental $15k. To him, all the "intangibles" are worthwhile.
Sidewall: 4.3 in
Radius: 12.8 in
Diameter: 25.7 in
Circumf: 80.7 in
Revs/mi: 785
New Tire (255/45/17)
Sidewall: 4.5 in
Radius: 13.0 in
Diameter: 26.0 in
Circumf: 81.8 in
Revs/mi: 775
Speedometer reading with non-stock tire is 1.4% too slow. When your speedo reads 60 mph, you are actually traveling 60.8 mph. (This would be acceptable)
New Tire (255/50/17)
Sidewall: 5.0 in
Radius: 13.5 in
Diameter: 27.0 in
Circumf: 84.9 in
Revs/mi: 746
Speedometer reading with non-stock tire is 5.3% too slow. When your speedo reads 60 mph, you are actually traveling 63.2 mph. (This choice would not be acceptable)
I fully agree with that statement in principle. It just doesn't apply to me personally with respect to the $15k increment between a RL and TL. For me (an admitted manual transmission oriented driving enthusiast), the RL is at best equal to the TL 6-speed in performance and driving enjoyment. The luxury side of the RL is somewhat above the TL, as is its interior size. If my TL was stolen tomorrow, I might indeed have a difficult time deciding whether get another, or to go for a $60k 545i 6-speed or to go for a $55k E320 CDI. Those $25k and $20k increments buy some "real" performance advantages over the TL, as well as some other "intangibles". But the $15k increment for the RL hardly buys me anything, given MY personal preferences. If the RL offered a 6-speed, sport suspension option and V8 competitive with the 545i for $60k, I'd probably be much more likely to consider it. I fully appreciate and respect that some who value luxury over performance and have a $50k spending limit might find the RL to be their best choice.
Regarding tire size / speedometer error:
If I'm not mistaken, the RL comes standard with 245/50 tires, not 245/45. Therefore, a 255/45 would be a closer match. However, it should be noted that ALL Honda/Acura speedometers read 4-5%+/- too fast to begin with. If the speedometer says you are doing 70, you are actually doing 67+/-. This was confirmed by my service manager in a call with the regional representative. It can also be easily checked by setting your cruise control and using a stopwatch to time miles on a marked highway. The only exception to this "programmed conservatism" in speedometer readouts by Honda/Acura is the digital readout of the S2000, which is spot on accurate.
As such, you can jump up a tire size or two in actual outside diameter and still not be reading too low.
P.S. BMW's and Porsches are even further off on their speedometer readings.