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On another matter we have to read carefully the postings of the man from CINCINNATI in this 2005 RL forum... ;-) There is no way the lady with the law degree is going to let him off the hook from buying another Audi! Unless... Unless...perhaps if Acura could overnight produce a prototype 2006 "TL" with an "AWD" system and get her a test drive soon. Then Mark could give Acura some more consideration but until then there really doesn't appear to be anyway this couple will break ties with Audi. Any suggestions?
[lvdh] None at all...hope you didn't misinterpret a previous post? I referred to a question that came up back in October about a perceived problem somebody ELSE had with a Locked SH AWD...and the problem was solved by Acura.
Just as a test.
- Ray
Kidding . . .
Sheesh.
I must say, that the TL, exactly as it was with just plain ol AWD, not even SH-AWD, would or should wake the market up (look out Audi and BMW A4 and 3 series, that is).
I had lunch today with a fellow co worker, he drove his X5 (only his second BMW) -- he says it is hard to exit the womb-like embrace of a wonderful dealership experience. And, from his perspective Acura, Audi, BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, and a couple other -- "get it!"
Fast forward to 27 more of anything, and even at this rate, I'll be an octogenarian.
I don't know if I can wait that long.
No matter what I actually end up doing, I can only suggest that there are many perks that can accrue to "loyal, repeat customers" -- if you, reading this, are in your first Acura and you are younger than I by a at least a decade, perhaps it will be worth your while to form a long long term relationship with Acura (unless they totally underperform, of course).
A great car with a poor dealership experience is still a poor car, but a less than stellar car can be quite acceptable (or so I can imagine) with an outstanding dealer experience (and company treatment for that matter).
When I read about some of the stuff people have to put up with from the vendor, then are treated royally by the dealer, I do not question their sanity for remaining with the vendor (within limits of course).
Reading some of the posts here and elsewhere, one can almost come to the conclusion that all vendors and dealers can learn from Lexus -- they are just THAT good.
I dunno, my Audi dealer certainly treats us "like we're somebody."
That may not make ALL the difference, but it sure goes a long way.
Reading the last couple of posts is a bit frustrating (car in the shop, etc.) but here is where the dealer can really shine (as can Acura). For it is difficult to judge how you will be treated when nothing goes wrong -- but, if you are treated well when something does go bump, you are likely to remember the treatment and the resolution rather than the incident that precipitated it.
Some folks on this forum (not just Acura) seem to want to dis almost anything European or American or sometimes just German in general. They may be right -- perhaps the Japanese makers will rule the world soon (Toyota predicts it will pass up GM in 2005 -- and THAT's a statistical FACT!). Perhaps.
Remarkable improvements, however, happen every day as do shocking downhill slides -- we'll just have to wait and see.
Thanks to all you cyber-psychologist's here on edmunds, as I muddle through this process.
I will comment on my test drive regardless of my final decision. And, it has come to my attention that I may not go for the superior product, opting instead for the superior overall experience.
Worst snow in many years falling as I type this here in River City (aka Cincinnapolis).
Merry Christmas.
I possibly know the situation you are in! At least I presume that is somewhat related to what happens to me in another field, that of computing. For various reasons I started my dealings with hardware platforms from Digital/Unix and had my "windows" at version 1 through 3 (probably the worst ever minted by the Redmonds guys) because I actually had DOS when involved with the AT boxes (the early enclosures for PCs) to run Lotus 123 and other early software. Then I was given the opportunity to use a Macintosh and everything changed. I liked it so much that I even stayed on when things started to look not so good, and as you have hinted benefited of great enjoyment once they stepped up back on the saddle! After 25 years of computing I still deal with some of each flavor but when I buy with my moneys is invariably an Apple computer! (So much in fact, that in our household of 2 adult and a 4 yo we have 4 computers, 3 laptops and one desktop!)
I guess like for your Audi buying experience, you come to learn wath to expect and looking out there you do not see anything that really justifies 'switching' to another brand/product (for me and my computer preferences the killer is how productive you can be, light years ahead of any Wintel offering). I suspect we are both strongly subjectives at times but still it works and makes us happy. So unless you really find something that makes it worth to leave the Audi shores don't do it. Having your ego stroked now and then is not necessarily a bad thing, and it works for you, In addition, as you suggested, is not absurd to think that the next breakthrough may just come form Audi, so why rush to abandon it. :-)
Truly,
Steve
I have noted one thing about the RL...I think I can tell sometimes when I think the car is shifting most of the power to the rear wheels. There seems to be this very brief "pause" like the car is changing gears or like the feeling of a traction conrol coming in for a second to cut the power but I know it isn't. This hasn't happened all the time...only like 2 or 3 times, one being tonight on the snow going up hill, the other two on dry pavement around corners when I was givng her a bit of gas. Maybe somehow the system is getting confused:)
Anyone else experience this? For 99% of the time the work of the AWD torque shifting has been imperceptible including this evening (obviously aside from going up that hill) on the snow when going around bends or taking off from stop signs/lights.
In addition, I frequently find that the system displays congestion where there is none and no congestion where it clearly exists. Some times it gets it right, but many time it seems totally wrong. Do others have the same experience? Unless changing my XM box totally resolves this it seems to me that this technology is just not there yet. Otherwise love the car.
Thanks.
I am sure that as this technology becomes more widely used, the reliability and accuracy will improve. Right now, it is still one of my favorite features in the car and I look forward to the service improving over time.
Does anybody know how to make a DVD-A (using the Audio_TS folder and .vob files)?
Component: Power Train: Driveline: Differential Unit
Service Bulletin No.: 10282004
NHTSA (National Highway Transportation Safety Assoc.) No.: 10010558
Date of Bulletin: 10/28/04
This defect was investgated by NHTSA
That being said, I have owned honda's/acura(nsx/legend coupe)nissan and caddy. enjoyable for the most part with acura- although acura tends to be "snooty" at times(depends on dealership). Caddy sts - wonderful service/car.
nissan-love the pathfinder, but the dealership take it or leave it.
My son got a 04 TL that had a oil leak from the engine and they couldn't find where it came from even after changing the head gasket.
The sales manager called and told him that he is giving him a new TL that was the same as his in stock. So within a week he had a problem but got a new car. To bad your dealer didn't step up to the plate with this.
American Honda executives would do well, therefore, to review their own advertising brochures and web site: "When you buy an Acura, you know you're in good hands. Acura ownership not only entitles you to a superb vehicle, but support you can count on whenever you need it. Acura Total Luxury Care® (TLC®) comes with every new and Certified Pre-Owned vehicle. TLC not only includes the Acura 4-year/50,000-mile warranty, but 24-hour nationwide emergency and travel services, roadside assistance, Acura Concierge Service, and more. This program of special privileges and services is exclusively for Acura owners, to ensure a satisfactory driving and ownership experience down the road."
Snow tires on this thing would probably be really incredible but the OEM Michelins did their job...not bad for tires that apparently aren't that great with snow and I think they will do the job for me this winter.
Rob
The problems you are having with your RL's "SH-AWD" system are particularly dissapointing and, in my opinion, representative of bad judgement. My wife and I have driven the RL extensively (300+ miles last weekend) and have concluded that, for all of it's advanced technology, it does not steer as precisely or feel as well balanced in the curves as a basic RWD BMW 5-series. My wife even insists that it doesn't handle as well as Acura's own FWD TL 6-speed. I haven't verified this personally, but we are both pilots and have taken performance driving courses, so I respect her opinions as much as my own.
So, for all this "SH-AWD" technology, you get a vehicle that may only show any real handling advantage in inclement weather, but in day to day driving is possibly inferior, weighs several hundred pounds more than it should, and may be subject to more maintenance or reliability problems.
Acura isn't the only automaker guilty of this kind of questionaly judgement. The market value of my 2002 M5 went up with the introduction of BMW's i-drive system in the 5-series. And my dealer has potential buyers interested in my car after they found out that the 2006 M5 may only be available with an quirky SMG transmission, instead of the rock solid, low tech, high performance manual transmission in the former M5.
I'm not old fashioned and am prepared to accept new technology that results in tangible improvements. But technology for its own sake is not necessarily a good thing. In an airplane, it can be lethal.
With several people reporting problems with the SH-AWD, I am wondering if this new technology has a significant upside when it works [which seems to be the case for most of us].
That being said, I think a little perspective is in order. Claiming false advertising or fraud is a little extreme considering the thousands of other happy owners of this car which for the rest of us is a fabulous machine. It is always going to be impossible for a manufacturing process to produce 100% perfection and there will always be the occasional defect that is released. Humans still build and design these cars.
I think that in your case the fault is with your dealer. Having had a long relationship with my local dealer, I am appalled by the treatment that you have received. It sounds like the service department doesn't have a clue what is wrong with the car and is grasping at solutions. It could be that the fix is something simple in the electronics that just hasn't been properly diagnosed, and it is hard to beleive that a part can't be made available until the middle of next month. This sounds like the dealer isn't trying very hard to fix the problem. Parts can be shipped almost anywhere in the world overnight if people want it to happen.
Good luck, and I hope that your dealer makes this right for you. I know that there are other dealers that would.
Instead, he "missed the boat," "dropped the ball," etc. Instead of of seizing on the opportunity to build good PR, they've blown it.
Keep us informed.
Acura's statements were merely identified to show Acura's/American Honda Motor Co.'s total lack of customer service.
The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act is solely a cause of action based upon the manufacturer's breach of express/written warranties and implied warranties; that the defects violate Manufacturer’s Warranty, as well as the implied warranty of merchantability; that the vehicle is defective and unmerchantable condition which substantially impairs its use, value and/or safety. 15 U.S.C. §2308 holds that all vehicles are impliedly warranted to be substantially free of defects and non-conformities in both material and workmanship, and thereby fit for the ordinary purpose for which that vehicle is intended.
Assuming you prevail, The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act requires a manufactuer to:
1. return to the buyer all monies paid,
2. pay to the buyer the diminution in value of the vehicle;
3. pay to the buyer all incidental and consequential damages incurred;
4. pay All reasonable attorneys’ fees, witness fees and all court costs; and
5. and other fees incurred.
There are three subjects you need to be aware of -
Screen Scale Setting - You need to be within the range of 1/2 mile to 5 miles to see the traffic icons and info alerts.
Incident Update Details - Information is updated continuously. However you are at the mercy the agency feeding the information. The critical issue is that information for metro areas varies and is usually sent only Monday thru Friday from 5:00 AM to 7:00 PM. This is noted on page 19 of the Navigation Manual.
Select Roadways Update - Not all highways are updated with traffic info. As the system expands, we should expect to see more coverage.
Hope this helps.
No it's not.
My brother works as an engineer for a parts supplier for a major auto manufacturer.
He told me of an old part they supply that is mis-aligned and causes small coolant leaks.
A few engineers designed a new part (on their own time) and proposed it to the auto manufacturer; they didn't want to be associated with the old failing part.
The increase in cost was under 0.25 but got rejected (repeatedly) because it would effect well over 1 million engines. The bean counters decided that it is easier (meaning cheaper) to fix the problem "IF" it breaks than spend the extra money upfront; plus warranty periods don't last forever.
The new part got implemented after a top executive had it fail on his vehicle...
This is possibly the most helpful and intelligent post I have seen on the RL. It seems to have many attractive features and I am still tempted to buy one.
However, I must admit that I am concerned regarding some of the problems appearing with the SH-AWD. However, the larger point you are making is being missed by the manufacturers and many car buyers. Specifically, technology is supposed to make the car easier to drive and also not hurt reliability. Braking, handling which is natural, adequate space in the rear seat and trunk and reliability are key. The car makers keep adding gadgets but give me a car with suberb braking (a definite RL weakness), acceleration, handling, passenger space and reliability. It seems to me the RL has issues in several of these areas. Not saying the car is not a decent car (or trying to provoke a fight with RL lovers) but concerns/shortcomings are real.
For those of us old enough to have had the experience, it just never makes sense to pay more than MSRP. When I think of the cars that have initially commanded this premium (all the way back to a diesel VW Rabbit in LA in 1979 because gas prices had spiked), I just have to restrain myself a few months, sometimes a year, and keep that money in my own pocket rather than shelling it out to a dealer.
And speaking of overweight...the M5 on my track experience pushed prominantly.
I still fail to see the issue on rear seat room since it seems fine to me aside from the middle seat and from dimenisons given, it has more room than most of its competitors in the backseat. Either I sit way differently in rearseats or people are a lot taller than my 6'1" self. Could they have given it more rear room? Probably but I for one and glad they didnt because I don't care one bit about rear seat room since I drive the car in the front and if I can be comfortable sitting in the back then any of my friends can as well...unless they plan to lounge back like they would in a Maybach 62.
I dont think there is enough info to question the reliability of the car. Yeah a small few are having issues with the XM and the AWD system but they are the minority. Every model on the market will have a few cars that come off with problems. If they didn't then every car would score a 0 in the JD Power & Associates polls on problems per 100 vehicles. Heck, some people have issues with their LS430s and it is the most reliable car in the world. My parents have one and the air suspension has a messed up sensor on the right rear wheel that makes the car ride a tad crooked. Should people now be concerned of getting an LS430? No.
What I do find amusing is some people now writing the car off as a choice simply because a couple are reporting problems but hey....that seems to be the north american way. You only look at the small vocal minority rather than the big picture. My car is fine. Double Js car is fine. Many other here have cars without problems....how come nobody says "oh Rob, JJ and others don't have problems. I will still strongly consider the RL" but really, it does not matter to me if they are worried about getting an RL now....I just find it funny.
The one issue that I do find concerning is how some Acura dealerships seem to be handling these customers with the problems. That is bad and is hardly a sign of quality service. If Acura wants to be seen as a top dog they need to make sure these customers are taken care of in quick and satisfying fashion or most likely the customers will become ticked and never buy an Acura again or recommend Acura to friends.
Here's hoping that if any issues arise with my RL that my dealership takes care of them in a way they should for a luxury brand and especially for a customer who bought a 70 grand car from them.
I am seriously thinking now of changing the tires. Yesterday they did well especially in braking on the snow but today they showed me their apparent limited snow traction that others have mentioned at tirerack and the braking was crap.
The decision is do I get a set of snows and maybe some summers for the rest of the year or just a good set of all seasons. I am thinking just a new set of all seasons.
Here is a question...what difference would there be by going with say a 45 or 55 profile? Not that many tires come in the 245 width with 50 profile like the RL uses.
As an engineer I agree. Big business uses complex risk management software to analyze the bottom line costs via extremely detailed assumptions related to direct costs, projected failure rates, impact on customer loyalty, and potential liability for safety issues, etc.. It's never a simple case of "we are doing our best to make your car reliable and safe". Containment or reduction in liability exposure will of course allow business to more finely tune the outcome, but that will be decided by the people and politicians.
Sorry I diverge. I've been lurking and reading these posts for some time on the RL after enthusiastically waiting months for its debut. I love the car, its technology and the Acura's rep. for reliability. There are some things on my wish list like a little more rear legroom, larger trunk, ventilated front seats, a fully adjustable front passenger seat, optional V-8 and a 25K MRSP. I may bite the bullet in 2005.
'05 Acura RL 70-0... 180 ft. - C&D Road Test
'04 BMW 545 70-0... 156 ft. - C&D Road Test
'04 BMW 530 60-0... 115 ft. - MT Road Test
'04 BMW 545 60-0... 121 ft. - MT Road Test
'05 Acura RL 60-0... 127 ft. - MT COY Test
Not quite in the BMW league wrt braking yet!
This is where customer service really makes a difference - how a customer is treated in these moments causes either intense loyalty or rabid hatred.
You are absolutely correct. With a new model, service departments learn as they go. I can tell you this, on my RL, Acura's service department has admitted this and has been constantly having to call Acura's engineers for assistance. So maybe the better question is - do ALL of the engineers really have ALL of the answers. I suspect not.
At present, my 2005 RL remains unrepaired and in Acura's service department since the replacement parts are unavailable. Merry Christmas, right.
This morning I spoke to the manager of Napleton Acura and he stated he is receiving bad publicity and he clearly was not happy about this and even seemed a little annoyed and angered with me. Imagine that, he and Napleton Acura are annoyed and/or angry with me because Napleton Acura sold me a RL that essentially never worked. Sounds like his and Napleton's anger is clearly misguided. The manager did say that "all he can do is pass it on" and that "there is nothing he can do because he doesn't have the vehicle but he is willing to have the vehicle towed to Napleton Acura." First, once again, the manager’s and Napleton's response is unacceptable - still no initiative to get involved and deal with the manufacturer and resolve this matter. Second, he doesn't have the vehicle because the vehicle broke down the second time near another Acura dealership (Pauly Acura in Highland Park, IL) and that is where the vehicle remains. Please note that Pauly Acura bears absolutely NO blame for what is occurring.
Now, in reality, what difference does it make what Acura dealership's service department currently has the vehicle? Napleton sold me the car. Napleton can still call the manufacturer. Napleton can still offer to replace my RL and then deal with manufacturer directly. In my opinion, the only reason Napleton Acura wants my RL in their possession is so that Napleton can bill American Honda Motor Co./Acura for the repairs to my RL. Once again, Napleton is all about making money and enriching its own pockets, not customer care. Napleton just doesn't get it. Napleton Acura has done absolutely nothing to resolve this problem for me so why should I allow them to obtain possession of my RL from Pauly Acura's service department thereby enabling Napleton at some future point to make more money on my RL for the needed repairs - which can't even be done because the parts are not available. The parts are not available to Pauly and are not available to Napleton.
Napleton continues to handle this specific situation poorly, and shows Napelton's total lack of customer care.
2004 530i 60-0...131 feet. 80-0...231 feet
2005 RL 60-0...126 feet. 80-0...224 feet
So um, yeah...what was your point again about not being in the "BMW league" wrt to braking? Note I merely said the RL's braking distances based on R&T data are close to other cars and gave the 530 example which as you can PLAINLY see, the RL stopped in less feet.
I could also list the A6 braking distances that are slightly inferior to the RL but I don't see the point...same with the MB E320 which are pretty much equal. Oh what the heck, here they are:
A6 60-0: 129 feet, 80-0: 235 feet
MB320 60-0: 124 feet, 80-0: 225 feet
Again, the RL's braking isn't as bad as some "opinions" (usually by people who havent even sat in the car nevermind driven it) seem to say and I DID do my research now didn't I?
Of course comparing braking stats to determine how well the brakes are in cars is pretty useless unless the cars compared have the EXACT same tires and are tested on the exact same road at basically the exact same time and driven by the exact same driver. This of course is never done so there really is no point to form an opinion on a car's brakes compared to another car other than it can be a topic of discussion or something to praise/complain about.:)
I stand by my feeling the RL's brakes so far seem fine to me but at the same time could be better (not because they have let me down, just because I know they could be better since they arent the best) but so can the brakes in most other cars that have inferior or equal braking distances to the RL which there are apparently many of, BMW cars included.
Note that the 530 R&T data I gave above was for a 530 not equipped with the performance rubber which IMO is the fairest comparison to the RL. They did do a test of the 530i with high performance rubber and the distances were 119 and 214 feet. What does that say? It says (to me at least) the tire has a big factor in the stopping distances.
"So um, yeah...what was your point again about not being in the "BMW league" wrt to braking?"
Boy I am really sorry to hear about your problems witht the new RL. I would be calling every number at Honda headquarters telling them I want a new car. Napleton messed up big time in my opinion not teating you like royalty and at least giving you a 2004-TL or even 2004-RL loaner. My 2001 MDX went in for warranty service early this year and my dealer gave me a 2004 TL loaner.
Napleton and Honda headquarters needs to be shocked into reality by all of us Acura owners so this cancer is nipped in the bud.
I was planning on trading in my 2004 TL this comming spring on a new 2005 RL, but hearing all this is making me feel like I should reconsider. Maybe take a wait and see approach.
One thing for sure though, if I lived in the Chicago area, Napleton would be off my list as apotential dealer to buy from!
Good luck with your problem, I will be watching closely to see how Honda/Acura management deals with taking care of it the right way, and hopefully undoing the damage already done to their reputation.
My backgroung with Acura includes three other Acuras over the past few years, including a Legend and and MDX, a Honda Accord and Hondic Civic. I have always been extremely satisfied with Honda and Acura, both with the quality and reliability of all of them. Service has also been exceptional, loaners provided when necessary ect. I sincerly hope that Honda/Acura hasent changed their operating philosophy.
Merry Christmas to all.
Thanks. I sure hope that someone in a position with authority at American Honda Motor Co. in CA and/or Honda in Japan is aware as to what is being said on this Edmunds forum.
However, the very top management at American Honda Motor Company, Inc. in California is already aware of this situation as, at my initiation, I contacted and spoke with with the personal assistants to Nos. 1 and 3 below, and also sent written correspondence via facsimile and regular mail to each of the following persons:
1. President and CEO
American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
California
2. Executive Vice President, Honda Motor Co. Ltd.
President and Director, Honda North America,
Inc.
California
3. Executive Vice President
Automotive Operations
American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
California
4. President and Chief Executive Officer
Honda Motor Company Limited
Japan
The personal assistant to No. 1 above was quite rude and non-cooperative, however, the personal assistant to No.3 was polite and professional.
Having said that, being "polite and professional" does not resolve the problem and to date I have not received any contact whatsoever from anyone at American Honda Motor Co. or Honda Japan.
Also, you would have thought that by now the owner Napleton Acura would have taken the bull by the horns and called me directly to discuss and resolve this matter. To date, I have not received a single phone call from any upper management at Napleton Acura and the manager of Napleton says he "has no authority to take any action or make any decisions without the approval of upper management." I guess Napleton Acura has taken the very short sighted attitude of "hey, we got that customer's money, it's not Napleton's problem anymore, and lets now focus on making more sales and more money."