BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

idletask · July 2002

(mind you, I'm only talking about EU cars sold in the US. I've no idea, except for Chrysler EU-made, about US cars build quality)

From what I see, many of you have problems wrt building quality of cars. For some reason, we on the Old Continent have no such problems. Never will you see here a BMW with a deficient build quality. They are probably all built in the Munich factory which rjg96 mentioned though...

Also, VW is renowned here for its very good build quality. Never would you see here a VW that doesn't feel solid! In fact, the only manufacturer which has to face a decreasing build quality here nowadays is... Mercedes. How strange, problems have started to appear from the day (well, not exactly, but you get the picture) where Daimler-Benz bought Chrysler!

Lastly, and strangely enough, the defects in build quality, which I see Edmunds reporting about, regarding the Ford Focus are not to be seen hereabouts! Strange, isn't it?

rjg96, BMW *does* make Diesel powered cars above $30k, but AFAICS they're not on sale in the US. I personally own a 330d, but there is also 318d, 320d, 520d, 525d, 530d, 730d, 740d. Maybe you can ask your dealer about them... 330d is the best IMHO, but if you seek comfort above all then I'd recommend 530d.

div2 · July 2002

>I suggest that you consider another make<
Maybe a KIA? They have a TEN year warranty...:)

soverypoornow · July 2002

Soverypoor wife has a '99 318ti. She's now decided to forego the MINI for awhile and keep her ti. Something about practicality, logic and many other things I don't understand. Anyway, she at least wants to add some accessories to the ti and we've found while shopping for add-ons it sure does help to know if she has an E36 or E46. How can I tell? Thanks.

ddblue · July 2002

My understanding is that the 318ti was only available in the prior generation of 3s, making it an E36.

soverypoornow · July 2002

rjg96 · July 2002

I'm very aware of BMW's diesel offereings-- unfortunately, we don't get those in the states. I'm curious though--what did I say in my post to make you think I was interested in a diesel BMW?

Its funny that you mention that in the EU it seems like all VWs and BMWs are solidly built. I lived in Germany for a year, and often rented cars on the weekend. I never heard a squeak or rattle in any of the cars-- including several BMW 3s and 5s, VWs, Ford Focuses, Opels, etc. My 325 was built in the same Munich factory as several of the 318s I used to rent. What could it be? I think that it has a lot to do w/ 2 things: road quality and cloth seats. The roads are much, much better in europe which means that cars never have a chance to exhibit the rattles and squeaks that they can on terrible US roads. And, the cloth seats that are found in almost every european car, do a much better job of deadening any other noises than the vinyl and leather choices we get in the US. I know that VWs are held in high esteem throughout much of europe-- they're always praised by the press there as being reliable and solidly built. In US reliability studies like the JD Power survey and Consumer Reports they rank about mid pack in terms of quality-- well below all Japanese makes, some American and most European makes. Regardless, i do think that VW/Audi does the best job of selecting materials and putting a car together of any maker.

I think the quality perception of Mercedes is decreasing in both the US and europe. The interiors on most modern Mercedes are pretty poorly built with surprisingly bad plastics.

1pierce · July 2002

Happy 4th to everybody. I haven't turned on a computer since Wed afternoon, so I had a great outdoor weekend.

P6 vs Contis: schumaker: I test drove two 3-series, one with the Continentals and one with the P6's. Initially, I wanted the contis, because they look a little better and are what most BMWs come with. However, I think the P6's had a slightly sportier feel to them, so I'm kind of hoping mine comes with the P6's. Incidentally, all of the A4's and A6's (except the SP A4) that I drove had P6's on them.

Brave: Thanks for the stat on SA built 325's. Nice to know, but I'm totally NOT sweating the SA thing. I just wish they would get off their butts down there in SA and load my car on a boat already!!! Still "awaiting transport".

Sport Seats: My brother's 323 SP has them. I agree w/Brave, they are really comfortable is you sit up straight. They are less comfy if you slouch, which I do, especially after a hard day at work. I also had a bolster wear issue on my Grand Prix (excellent seats, shaped like the SP seats) getting in and out. I didn't get SP on my BMW (for a variety of reasons that don't need to ignite a flame war). I was satisfied with the base seats for everyday driving.

rjg96: While the BMW's I've driven, including my brother's w/25,000 miles on it, have had no unusual rattles or squeaks, it sounds like you are VERY discriminating (and somewhat unrealistic). All cars develop some noises as they age, but I'd recommend a used MB E-Class. Talk about built-like-a-tank. To me, that car feels much more "solid" and carved from granite than a 3 or 5. And, it ain't no Lexus.

Question: Its been 5 weeks since I ordered my car. Owner's Circle is still saying "Awaiting Transport". Can I get more up-to-date info from the dealer, or will they just tell me not to be a pest?

div2 · July 2002

All US Compacts are E36 cars. There is an E46 Compact available in Eyrope and elsewhere, but there are currently no plans to market it in the US. In any event, the E36 Compact is MUCH better looking- the E46 looks like it was customized by "Long Grain Rydes Boyzs", if you get my drift...

john01 · July 2002

My sister had a New Beetle and a friend of mine had a Jetta (not the current model), both of which are built in Mexico. Both of them had so many little problems with the car, they will never buy VW again. Worse still, the dealers could not fix them, or they would and the things will keep on breaking. German built VWs like Golf, Passat seem to hold up better.

rascal8 · July 2002

Do not rely on Owners Circle. It is notoriously unreliable as far as tracking your car. The only way you can track your car that I know of is by contacting your sales agent. I don't know if BMW customer service can even give you that information. I wish they would fix the Owners Circle tracking process

JingleJill · July 2002

Great color choice. I test drove a 330ci Orient Blue with brown leather this weekend. It was great looking.

I was having trouble deciding which color I liked, but after seeing the orient blue in person, both in shade and sunlight, I think it is the winner.

BTW, great quote on the ED. Do you know if this is a standard for Mike Pile? If so, I think I might have to give them a call.

Thanks,

Stacy

erickpl · July 2002

From what I remember when I installed my XM, the BMW's cannot handle a 12 disc changer quite the way you would like. I believe that it will play discs 7 through 12, but you cannot access them directly. So when disc 6 finishes, it will play 7 through 12, but if you hit next disc, it would go to 1. Hope that helps some.

If you want to access all 12 directly, you have 2 choices:
1. Get a new head unit that will work with a Pioneer 12 disc
2. Get a RF adapter with a separate display unit that will control your 12 discs.

-Paul

mr323 · July 2002

Call BMWNA (I don't have their 800 with me--sorry) and give them your VIN or order number and they can tell you the shipping date, ship, and estimated arrival date at port. With the ship and shipping date you can then go to the shipper's site (Wallenius ?) and get further information. It's fun, and the BMWNA folks are patient with repeated requests for updates.

Best wishes,

Ed

hgeyer · July 2002

tenet1 · July 2002

Don't worry. Your car is probably half way across the pond. My car sat awaiting shipment for several weeks in SA but then all of a sudden the system showed that it had departed SA about 2 weeks earlier. The system is just a bit slow sometimes so call BMWNA, they will know for sure.

kyyuan · July 2002

DL,

I'll e-mail you.

Stacy,

The quote I got was from Autobahn, not Mike Pile's BMW in Tyler. Since I live in Dallas, Autobahn would be much more convenient when services are required. Actually, Dave Hill at Mike Pile was the one who recommended Autobahn.

If you are interested in speaking to my salesperson, please e-mail me. If location is not an issue for you, then Dave Hill at Mike Pile's would be a great person to work with for your next purchase. Based on my conversation with him, Dave seems like a very fair person. He said he does not consider himself as a "car salesman."

Stacy -- one question for you. What were your thoughts after your G35 test drive? I test drove the G35 this past weekend and thought it had a lot of pick-up and good torque; however, as many have mentioned, the interior is not quite up to the standard. Overall, I thought it was a nice car; too bad the 6-speed isn't available yet.(I hope this question does NOT start more G35 vs 330i discussions.)

Ken
kenneth_yuan@yahoo.com

nyccarguy · July 2002

SoVeryPoor, it is funny (ironic funny, not ha-ha funny) that you mention that your wife is going to keep her E36 318ti around for a while. I don't often see these cars, but for some reason I saw quite a few of them this weekend walking around NYC. Could this be a sign of things to come? An E46 325ti for the US? I know it is probably not possible but, I can dream can't I?

JingleJill · July 2002

If you could, e-mail me at suzysparks@aol.com I'd like more info on that quote you were given and who you contacted.

As for the G35 test drive, I too was impressed with the power. I didn't like the placement of the power seat controls. I can already see them malfunctioning from spillage.

It really does need a manual transmission. I still haven't seen that many on the road. In fact, I've only seen 2.

After driving the G35, it is still no BMW. Sure, it is cheaper than a 330, but there is a reason for that. ;o)

Stacy

dg95 · July 2002

I am in the market for a used BMW 3 or 5; and, as I was once considering a used 5, I am running into some good deals (IMO) on some 328i's. It has made me reevaluate my purchase decision. I have recently run across a '99 CPO 328i w/sp, pp, and heated seats with 41k miles, for $29,000. The car is steel blue metallic, not my first choice, but not bad. Does anyone have any insight as to what I should specifically look for when testing out a used 3'er. Also, '99 was the first model year for the E46 328i, at least on these shores. Does anyone know of any reaccuring electrica or mechanical issues. I have noticed that the '99 model year has been significantly cheaper than any similarly equipped '00 models. I have seen some CPO '00 328i's w/sp and pp up around $35k. What gives? Is '00 more desirable? Do the '99's have more problems? What is determining this (IMO) larger than expected disparity? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

obioha1 · July 2002

I just got a chance to formally test drive a 325ci and 330ci back to back and all I can say is wow!!!. Due to my lack of experience with a manual i opted for the 5 speed auto and the manual mode at least for me was quite a thrill. You can't really appreciate either car fully in normal automode. The steptronic mode is in a word "amazing" I mean i was initially very underwelmed by the 325ci but moving the shift lever over to the left and suddenly the car transformed. I mean 325ci really hauls. I didn't think that it gets better than that but then the salesman told me to test drive the 330ci. Oh my goodness. It was like I was driving a rocket. The car was more responsive in each gear than in the 325. only 225hp and this car was like flying. I can only imagine what an M3 would be like.

When the test drive was over I got a chance to take the car on the test track(momentum bmw in houston has a track at the back of the dealership)I was a passenger this time, while a professional race car driver(i can't remember his name) took the 330 around the track to show me the car's performance as well as its safety features. The car was so stable around the track.

I never really understood dynamic stability control until the driver took us on a wet portion of the track and the car refused to spin out. He then turned off the DSC and sure enough the car pretty much did a 360. The braking was so superior as he was able to weave through cones with foot on the brake. Nice to know if i ever have to avoid a deer or child or something that jumps out into the road. The guy was taking this car to its limits while explaining all that he was doing, making it all look so so easy. I was thinking i would be in a ditch trying to drive hard and explain what i was doing.

Also the dealer said for around $1500 they could readjust the ECU and air intake and add about 20hp to either the 325 or 330. Wow!!

BMW engineering is to truly be applauded. Apart from great looks and speed. Their cars are really one of the safest if not the safest cars on the road today. I also really liked the fact that the key opens the sunroof---:). No car can even compare, not even the G35(which i test drove yesterday, although it is a great attempt)

The driving experience is now permanentally etched in my brain and since the 330ci the way i want is about $40,000. I think I will be selling my vital organs or looking into the adult entertainment industry to be able to purchase the 330ci. J/K or maybe not

kdshapiro · July 2002

$1500 for 20 hp? The dealer would do that. Is that a supported BMW enhancement or is it DINAN?

What I would have given to have a pro take me around a test track in a 330i. Must have been an awesome experience. I don't get to drive very fast with my rush hour commute so my time of enjoying my Bimmer is limited to the weekend. The commute is why I opted for the Steptronic not the manual.

Good luck with your decision.

BTW. FWIW. The 330i at cruising speeds using level throttle is virtually noise-free. However, when one gives it a fair amount of gas it jumps with a throaty roar. Has anybody else noticed the same?

chewie5 · July 2002

Now, I'm really not an expert in this by any means, but 20hp from an ECU change and an CAI sounds like a line of BS from the dealer. If it is a Dinan chip, according to their website it is good for a total of ZERO hp. I know that there is a shark injector ECU upgrade, but I believe that it's good for a lot less than 20hp and isn't available for the engines in the current 330 and 325.

Does anyone more knowledeable about mods like these agree, or am I misinformed?

Good luck with your decision. I didn't even bother test driving the 330i since I knew that if I had driven it, I would've had some serious explaining to do to my wife when I came home with the 330 and told her that we had no more money...

Can you tell I'm jealous of all you 330 owners? Lucky bastards. :-)

bmw323is · July 2002

Has anyone here used a product called "Wheel Wax"? It claims to "keep the wheels cleaner between washes and makes them easier to clean." Ordinarily, I'd be skeptical, but I'm looking for any relief I can find to keep my wheels clean between washings (don't want to use Kleen Wheels).

Second, anyone else plan on attending O'Fest in Keystone Colorado next week?

soverypoornow · July 2002

nycarguy: With the exception of my wife, around here the only ti's I see are driven by high school/college kids. Never anyone older than 25. And even at that, I rarely see a ti. It's always sort of a novelty to pass one. Sounds like your dream is div2's nightmare.

Chewie: I recently took delivery of a 330i and thought you might be able to console yourself with the knowledge that it took me a good two weeks to get used to the accelerator. Seemed there was very little in between 0 and 20 mph. I barely step on the gas and next thing I know soverypoorfamily all has whiplash. Okay, so it's lame consolation. I just thought I'd share there is a down side to the extra power.

denk · July 2002

BMW's implementation of the automatic climate control feature seems odd to me. On my other cars with this feature you just push auto and select a temperature setting and the system determines whether you need cooling or heating, and determines the fan speed to attain it. On the 325, the auto button apparently determines what vents to send the air to, but you have to manually push the A/C button if you want cool air. This seems goofy to me. I would rather have the system decide whether I need warm or cold air than decide what vents to send the air to. In the summer I set the vent flow to the dashbord outlets and it stays there all summer. Maybe there's a logic to BMW's implementation that I'm not seeing--if so, I'd like to hear what it is.

riez · July 2002

denk... BMW's system operates oddly and makes no sense. For an automatic system, you have to do too much manually. And the dumb things lack a simple on/off switch. So kicks on even when you don't want it to. Have to use the fan speed controlto turn off. Has me wondering if one of Satan's minions doesn't have a job with BMW, tasked to bedevil enthusiasts?

ccotenj · July 2002

chewie, you are right...

i would expect that WHEN the shark injector comes out for that car, coupled with an intake and a free-flowing exhaust, you probably can get some more out of the car, if only because the software will be programmed to take advantage of the added breathing ability... whatever jimc says you'll get from it, you'll get from it...

it's not like the good old obd-i days, when they weren't too good at engine management, and a smart programmer (i.e. jimc) could coax another 20 out of it, just by changing the chip... plus obd-ii has a bagillion more parameters that have to be taken into account...

BEWARE OF CHEAP HORSEPOWER ADS... horsepower doesn't come cheap...

-Chris

ddblue · July 2002

I recently had a CAI from Autothority installed in my 2001 325Ci. It was measured on the dyno for an additional 8 hp to the rear wheels. They have just finished programming an ECU upgrade product that supposedly gives an additional 12 hp for the 325. CAI: $340.00 (includes labor). ECU Upgrade: $500.00 (includes labor). So, for a measly $840.00, I can get 20 additional HP, which would put my 325Ci at 204 HP. Not bad.

nyccarguy · July 2002

Sounds like you had a great time test driving BMWs. WOW, a dealer with a test track in the back? They are amazing cars! Whether you get a 325Ci or a 330Ci you will be happy.

$1500 sounds like a lot of money to be spending for a measly (don't even know if it works 20hp). If you really want the car to be faster, then get it with a stick, IMO (no flames from the step supporters please:) and spend the $1500 on driving school. You'll learn how to drive the car faster at its limits (and become a better driver). You don't really need 20 extra hp. You'll have to learn to tame the 184hp and that will benefit you more.

BMWs drive faster than their advertised hp.

vtran2 · July 2002

This is what I get
BMW 330Ci
Premium package
Sport Package
Xenon headlights
Orient Blue Metallic /w sand leather

This is what the dealer wants
$41,707 out the door

esq1 · July 2002

Does anyone have the rain sensing wipers? If yes, what do you think of them?

nyccarguy · July 2002

it is kinda hard to tell whether or not you're getting a "good deal" on the car you've specd.

Invoice $38,215
MSRP $41,760

How much over invoice or (Under MSRP) are you buying the car for? What are sales taxes where you live?

If you give us some more information, then we can help you out.

But as far as the car goes...It is a great car!

ccotenj · July 2002

amen, brother, amen...

ddblue - YOUR car was measured on the dyno? or a test car? if your car, all conditions the same (i.e. same gas, temperature, relative humidity, etc.)... if so, where in the power band did you get that extra 8 hp? what about torque? what's the increase there?

-Chris

vtran2 · July 2002

Thanks for your inputs.I live in Maryland and the sale tax is 5%

Invoice 37095
markup 2500
-------------
Total 39595
Tax 1980
Tag 132
-------------
41707 out the door

MSRP 40310 w/o Tax and Tag

jagboyxtype · July 2002

ccotenj & ddblue-

I can't find the copy of Car & Driver where it was stated, but they said that BMW horsepower cannot be properly determined on a dyno because the car's computer notices that not all of the wheels are moving and limits the power for some reason (or something like that if memory serves). There is a way around this, but they didn't go to the trouble of doing it. Their car was an M3 though, so if other 3's don't do this, feel free to correct me. I'll try to find the article. You probably got a little more horsepower than you think if the dyno test works the way C&D said for 3's.

nyccarguy · July 2002

well, depending on the dealership, you could probably do much better than $2500 over invoice (1500-1700 over), but if you've got the funds, then the driving excitement of the 330Ci will probably outweigh the time and heartache of negotiating the price down much further. Time is precious & valuable.

shipo · July 2002

Back in the days before I had a car with intermittent wipers, I could never understand the fuss folks made about them. Then I bought a 1979 Scirocco with a single speed intermittent wiper setting, and I knew that I would never willingly go back to a car that did not have them.

Fast forward a few years, and I got a car that had variable speed "Occasional" wipers (as an old lady friend used to call them), and again, decided that I would never willingly go back to a car with a single speed intermittent setting.

I am now on my second car with Rain Sensing Wipers (1999 328i and 2002 530i), and yet again, I have decided that I will never willingly go back to a car with the variable speed option. Unfortunately, our family Mini-Van is so equipped, which means that when we go on vacation, I have to put up with constantly fiddling with the wiper settings when driving on a day with "widely scattered showers and thunderstorms". With the automatic setting, you just have to pay attention to driving, period. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

ddblue · July 2002

There was a graph of the dyno on their website, but I can't find it anywhere at autothority.com.
They stated that the torque increase was around 4 lb ft. It is most noticeable at the low end of the powerband (as measured by butt-dyno).

brave1heart · July 2002

Add my vote to the driving school over HP choice. After 1 driving school and 4 autoX events, I've realized that I need to improve my driving skills a lot before I start pushing the limits of my 325i effectively. It would be nice to have a 330/M3 some day but I honestly don't think I'm ready for it yet. A lot of these kids who upgrade to 260-HP Altimas/etc. from a beat-up college car will never come close to learning how to use all that power effectively.

nyccarguy · July 2002

I actually dished out that advice from many postings on this board from you and huntzinger. I have to give credit where credit is due.

rshaw11 · July 2002

I have only had my 325i for about a month, live in California and haven't had an opportunity to use the wipers yet; it probably won't rain again another four months. But I understand that the standard BMW wipers change speed when stopped. Can anyone, from a wetter climate, explain how this works, it sounds like another neat BMW feature.

ccotenj · July 2002

i see... so it was their test on their test car... getting my point yet? not necessarily saying that it DOESN'T get you more, but i need more proof than their own tests... think about it... you have a VERY sensitive butt-dyno, judging by your ability to feel 4 more lb/ft of torque... so you should already know that your horsepower/torque varies more on a percentage basis than the cai claim just dependent on weather conditions...

jagboy - i seem to remember somewhere in the dark recesses of my mind about dyno'ing the newere m cars (3 and 5), but darned if i can remember it, but i believe you are barking up the correct tree... where's div2, he'll know for sure...

-Chris

seivwrig · July 2002

Momentum is a Dinan dealer. from the last time I checked, the ECU will provide nothing for the 325i. Add the CAI, then you get some small gains but like it has been said before, learn to drive before get more HP. Or better still, learn to drive a manual then learn to drive.

I also feel cheated. I never got a ride on the test track. I guess I need to call my dealer about that.

A tip about Momentum: Try Euro Delivery. You can shave more than the standard $500 that they are know to fight you for. Don't expect to get more than $1000 off of the MSRP.

div2 · July 2002

I believe the problem with dynos and newer BMWs is due to the fact that that the ASC pulls the power back because it detects a large speed differential between the front and rear wheels. As I understand it, the ASC button does not completely disable the system, and therefore rear wheel HP would be affected.

1pierce · July 2002

I think the article you guys are referring to was in C&D last winter. They said that the BMW (it was an M3) could not be measured on their dyno because there was a limiter on the engine/computer that kicks in when all four wheels are not spinning at the same speed. There was a fix for this, but it involved reprogramming the computer which was both costly and time consuming, so they opted not to do it (I think this is the general summary of the article).

Incidentally, the thrust of the article was a discussion/test of whether you really get a performance advantage from higher octane fuels. As I recall the conclusion, it depended on the type of engine and whether the engine/computer was configured to burn the higher octane fuel efficiently. They tested various types of vehicles and engine types (a push-rod engine Dodge Ram pick-up was in the test, as well as an M3, I think an Accord, and maybe one other car). As I recall (and I'm doing this from memory, so I could be wrong), there was very little performance advantage in most of the cars if you used higher octane fuel than that recommended by the manufacturer,...and they couldn't get any data for the BMW.

ccotenj · July 2002

cool, thanks...

i wonder how they get any numbers at all? electronically disable it?

-Chris

chewie5 · July 2002

rshaw11,

The wipers on the 325i will default to the slowest intermittent speed when you come to a stop, and then go back to the speed they were at when you start up again.

chewie5 · July 2002

I barely step on the gas and next thing I know soverypoorfamily all has whiplash. Okay, so it's lame consolation. I just thought I'd share there is a down side to the extra power.

I must agree that it is definately a soverypoorconsolation. ;-P

(sorry, I couldn't resist)

mg330ci · July 2002

Just MHO

I don't like when a machine does things I didn't ask it to do.

Turning the wipers on when you need them is not a big deal (like shifting gears).

What happens when there is a BIG bird dropping in the windshield (just wondering)?

How about a few FRESH droppings

Can this feature be deactivated?

I would not pay extra for it (again, just me)

katkison · July 2002

You didn't get to ride on the test track? That was the main reason we go to Momentum (although I ultimately bought from Advantage downtown), I make them take me out there on every car we test drive. We did an X5 first a couple of years ago. That is one solid SUV. I had them take me out in a 330Ci. It was pretty freakin' cool. The test track is used by all the Momentum dealerships: BMW, SAAB, Porsche, Jaguar, Audi, VW and Volvo (I don't think there are any others). You ask nicely and they take you out there and the Italian race car driver (no, I am not kidding, I think his name was Alberto, or an A-name at least) drives you around the track and demonstrates the finer points of your automobile. If is funny to watch him get out of your car and get into some Porsche 911 and whip it around right afterwards. He knows how to push those cars.

You could always go "shopping" for another 3 series and ask for a ride...

Lots of fun, a little motion sickness inducing though. But I felt rock solid driving that car after he pushed it towards its limits. Just don't buy the car he took you out in the track in.

Kelly

BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

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