Thanks Brave1heart, sabastian1, kominsky for the feedback on jetta vs. 325i.
Glad to hear the 325 has more interior room than my jetta, and I although the jetta is fun to drive, I expect the 6 cyl BMW to pull much harder at higher speeds than my 1.8T 4cyl. I've always been a big 5-speed fan, so it's good to hear BMW's 5-speed is a great tranny. I think I'd go with H-K, CD, Xenons, and sport group, but that's about it. I like white, silver or non-metallic red. The interior of my VW has that nice German feel, but BMW seems to use better materials. Is the leatherette nice? Any cooler than leather? (desert southwest here)
Brave1heart: you mention the SP tranny. Is that the standard n/c transmission, or an upgrade? The Jetta handles well, but I'm guessing the BMW would make it feel like a tin can.
VW dealers have a terrible reputation for incompetent service departments, and VW has some known flaws (window regulators) in their cars that they are aware of, but won't recall. I'd like to know if BMW quality is truly a step up, and worth the higher lease payment than my VW. For the most part, I'm reading about less BMW owners disgusted with their dealer, or their purchase, than VW owners.
Are the 3-series German built? Jettas are Mexican-built of course, and I understand many of the M-B C-class are done in Brazil. Finally, is the C-class Benz worth a look compared to the 3-series?
I've sold a couple of them. There is a general unawareness of this item. The "problem" with this option is that it only really leaves enough room in the glove box for a pair of sunglasses when it's installed. It is a little less expensive. I think the whole point of the CD changer is that it's only of the way, holds 9 plus hours of music and doesn't tie up space in the dash somewhere. Is it really so very hard to go to the trunk need be. You will run out of gas before all the CDs have played!
regarding a south african built 325i ,I have had my car for 2.5 months and have 3000 miles on it. I have yet to see any deficiencies in this vehicle. those of you who are concerned about quality or performance can put the issue to rest.
I just came back from a long trip to NY, NJ and Philly. My baby has 900 miles on it now, and I love it.
Upon arriving home yesterday, I noticed a couple of small gouges in the paint on the center of the hood, probably from flying grit or rocks while driving on I-95.
Does anyone have any recommendations on how to minimize the appearance of these gouges? Does Z-5 do the trick? Will buffing at a body shop or detailing shop help much?
"It's not uncommon to find late 80's or early 90's S-class or E-Class cars still selling for $10k to $20k+. The relative number of older Japanese cars listed for anything over about $3k is limited."
I see your point...sortof. I think the resale values you mention are in relation to the vehicle price when it was new. I don't know what S-class or E-class MB's sold for back in the late 80's, but I am guessing it was a pretty penny. In contrast, (again, guessing) I would say the older Honda's you see for sale had an original msrp in the low-mid teens?
Yes, 325i models are being built in South Africa as we speak. If the 11th alphanumeric of your VIN is an "N", it is being built in SA. I have YET to hear anyone owning one manufactured there, including rel, twoof1, and pneubmw (and most likely more on this board), who was the LEAST bit unsatisfied. I talked to the dealer in Arlington who gave out the updated VIN numbers for the "aux. fan switch" recall I posted a few days ago, and he told me that you should find no difference whatsoever with one manufactured in SA and one in Germany (of course, except the VIN). I feel much better after talking to others about it. If anything, you'll have a wait a bit longer for the car, since there are not as many ships and the distance is much further (farther???....damn, I always forget =P)
I am awaiting a330 xi sometime in the next few weeks (also getting married which has luckily occupied my time...) and wanted to get the answer to two questions..
1) what are wheel locks? - do they simply lock the wheels and hubs so no one can steel them??
Your option list is good for an enthusiast. The SP is essential. The 325i SP has skidpad of .85, which is actually higher than the E46' M3's at .84. The xenons are a must in my book. BTW, the CD will be standard with the '02 models. If you live in a climate with four seasons, do get the heated seats, as both the leather and 'ette get very cold during the winter. One thing you shold know about the black 'ette, though, is that it is typically about 5-10 degrees wamer in my car than it is outside. The 325 is very reasonably priced for a great all-around car with these driving dynamics but the price creeps up fast when you start adding options. Pass on the leather, premium package, and steptronic and the end price will be more than reasonable. As far as the power, you can always add more ponies later if you need them but you can't come up with a 50/50 weight distribution unless you buy the 3-series. It still amazes me how tossable this car is and for all my spirited driving, I have not been able to come close to pushing it to its cornering limits yet. Not sure if I said "SP tranny" but that would have been a mistake - the SP has nothing to do with the tranny. As far as leasing, you should look at the 330i as well - BMWNA had a promotional rate on these a couple of months ago and the lease payment was about the same as the 325i. If that's not the case any more, buying typically makes more sense than leasing for people who intend on keeping their cars for a while and especially those who put a lot of miles on them. I hope I answered all your questions.
Thanks again. I'll consider the 330 model since I'll probably lease and the extra HP would be super. Otherwise a 325i with SP, Xenons and H-K is all I need to be a happy man. Can't wait to test drive one.
It's HOT here in Phoenix, so maybe I should go with the sand leatherette, but I like black because it hides scuff marks etc better than sand would. It's a trade off I guess. Won't be needing heated seats here, either, one less thing to pay for!
So, being built in SA is not a problem as far as anyone can see, then? Still under German supervision, just someplace else?
Anybody know how the C-class compares? Are they built in deutchland? I think a C-class Benz sedan would be a bit expensive compared to the 3-series though. Thanks.
Wilhelm (Willie? I think not!) Kaiser Bismarck (sounds like a cream puff...)
Mauser (dont'know anything about guns, but like the sound of the name. Also what I call my cat Eos sometimes, for her hunting abilities)
Walther
Kurt (sounds abrupt)
Brecht (for Albrecht Durer)...hmmmmm...nah
Female: Rosalinde (from Der Fledermaus) Anna Helga (um, no)
Do you guys see a theme here? I tried going with German names but I don't know too many (well there's Otto, Hans, Ludwig, Greta, and Johann but none of them seemed to fit)
I'm leaning towards Mauser, Schwartz or Rosalinde. Any opinions/alternate suggestions?
Just curious....What's the deal with naming cars (or boats, for that matter)? I've never named any of my cars (including 330xi, number 2) or boats. Why name and inanimate object? Just curious what other people think.
bluewolf - sand is more luxurious, black is sportier IMO.
S.A.-built cars - they are the same cars; only drag is the longer wait but keep in mind that you can specify to your dealer that you want a German-built car if that is an issue for you.
Sure, the C-class is worth a drive. MB is trying very hard in this segment and it seems that they are making progress. However, nothing South of a Porsche 911 has the driving dynamics of a 3-series. And yes, the C class would be more expensive. To me at least, if you care about status, you buy an MB; if driving is what you care about, you buy a BMW.
"inanimate object"?!? I guess; to me, the Shtroumpf is like a breathing, living, beep-kicking organism that has a lot more personality than most people I meet these days. It's fun.
my car before. This is my second car and my first nice one... It seems only fitting I have a term of endearment for it.
I also have a slightly (!) awe-struck appreciation of this car.
Of course this is easier said than done as I'm terrible with names...My cat was nameless for over two weeks...I still call her "THE CAT" on occasion and I've had her for over three years.
If I had a boat, I would definitely name it...not anything cute...I don't think like that...
People used to name their houses as well some time ago...Mansfield Park, Brideshead, Manderlay to name a few
1) what are wheel locks? - do they simply lock the wheels and hubs so no one can steel them??
yes.
2) what are coded keys???
your key contains a small computer chip that allows you (the dealer) to 'program' it. Several programming options are available (ie auto. door locks @ 5 mph, unlocking driver door / all doors, etc) You can find a full list of key programming codes at http://www.e46fanatics.com under 'faqs' or you can get a list from your dealer.
Had the opportunity to ride in and briefly drive a 2001 M3 two days ago. Private owner who I just met through business, so I was pretty careful. He was more agressive. The handling around high speed exit ramps and through a winding park felt spectacular - and considerably tighter than a 330i sport package. Virtually no body roll whatsoever. The relative difference in handling between this M3 and a "standard" 3-series was even greater than what I recall from having driven an M5 and 540i a few months ago.
I'm just curious where you saw the 325 rated higher than an M3 in lateral acceleration? That would be dramatically inconsistent with what my posterior was telling me. I previously owned a Toyota Supra Turbo with a skidpad rating of 0.99 and the M3 felt like it wasn't far off (and a lot smoother in the process).
If indeed your source is correct, then I would respectfully suggest "skidpad ratings" are an inaccurate measure of a car's real handling ability.
I am with you... the whole notion of naming a car seems odd to me. I'd feel dumb doing it. Moreover, my wife would mock me until my ears bleed if I started calling my car by a name. Especially if the name was Deutsche.
I won't mock those on this board who have named their cars, but it just isn't for me.
It's not like I'm going to have the name painted on the doors or anything! I'm not even going to get embroidered head-rest covers.
I just need to refer to my baby as something other than "my car" even if only on this board and in my head.
I have to admit, I'll never hear the end of it at home if I tell people I've named my car. (Actually, I made fun of my friend who named his Metro Lucy)
But this car has a distinct personality and deserves a name worthy of it. So play along...OK?
Although my car is still on its way to the dealership by now, I tend to agree that naming a car is a bit on the "kooky" side for me...as much as I'd like to believe there is life underneath that hood, and I DO, naming the car is little too much for me....IMO....
Both ratings are based on C&D articles in which they tested the skidpad of the 325i SP and the M3. The Jan '01 issue had the 325 SP (again, this is based on the SP) at .85. I don't remember the month in which they tested the M3 (will dig it out when I get home on Friday - it was definitely from this year) but I am positive they came up with .84. I've never claimed that skidpad ratings are the most accurate measure of a car's real handling ability. All it tells you is how much lateral acceleration the car can take before it starts skidding if you drive it in a circle (unrealistic condition). Two big variables for this test are car weight and tire size (width). The heavier the car, the easier it would be for it to start skidding, all other things equal. The M3 has 200-300 lbs on the 325i SP. By the same reasoning, you can fit a Pinto with very wide grippy tires and come up with a very high skidpad rating. Does that make it a much better handler? Of course not - it would just take a higher skidpad rating for it to start skidding. I think the lane change test is a much better measure for handling (will look these up too) but again, most of a car's real handling ability is hard to quantify. I was simply referring to the skidpad numbers and I did not mean to infer that based n that, the 325i SP handles better than the M3. The M3 is a stiffer, better-handling car but I don't think the 325i with SP is far behind.
I want to be a really tough, uncreative, and boring (not to be confused with unboring) guy too and I am recalling the Shtroumpf Muscle name and thus my living breathing beep-kissing thing will now proudly be called the 325 - just like millions of other BMW's. Noooot!! Calvin would be very mad at me...
Green Hornet, where are buzzing today when I need some help here? Still testing 0-110-0 in 700 yards?
Can't do the naming thing either but to each their own. When do you guys/girls actually use the name? Walking out to the parking lot with friends say "now wehre did I park Sally?" or "Honey, have you seen my Sally keys?"
No offense just trying to understand
I'm about 3k miles and am experiencing the louder engine described by many
oh wow, I thought Brave1 had a typo and meant E36 M3. Brave1 I agree with your analysis about achieving higher numbers with wider grippier (is that a word) tires and that the skidpad isn't the most accurate measure.... However, I am pretty sure that the reviews I've read for the latest M3 all have rated it at or above .90g's.
The M3 is a car that can compete with 'Vettes and 911s. I'm willing to bet you'd feel a fair amount difference between a 325i w/SP and it.
don't have time now, but I'll try to dig up the reviews later.
My husband and I are BMW and VW enthusists. Typically we have 5 or 6 cars that we own that run at a time. We name them because they are all our babies in one way or another. Plus having that many cars it gets a little confusing. Instead of kids...we have cars...
Has anyone added 17"wheels and performance tires to a non-sport package 323/325/328? I bought mine used and didn't have a choice but I'd like to get rid of the 16" all-seasons.
I have to act rather quickly on this matter as my new 325i will arrive much earlier than expected. It's at the Performance Center at this time. I had the German Plate made by Gak Motorsport back in early July at which time I placed an order with the dealership for the license frame. As of yesterday, the dealership was sold. No information was available on the license plate order. I could contact the new dealership but thought I'd try ordering it myself to avoid any further delays in addition to not having a favorable opinion of the new dealership. I have received excellent advice from "you guys" so I'm hoping someone will be able to tell me how to order this from BMW. I did look for it in the current Accessories catalog and couldn't find anything. Speaking of names - any suggestions for a license plate. All the usual and customary BMW vocabulary appears to be taken.
I hope nobody took offense to my "naming" comments, because I agree, to each his/her own (as long as nobody gets hurt). It really was a curiosity thing more than anything else. Besides, I'm sure many on here would cringe to hear how my wife and I fawn over our pets.
I fawn over my labradors too. They are living things with personalities. A car, even a really really cool car with great performance, is inanimate -- as in, not alive.
As stated above, I am not mocking those who name theirs, but for me, it seems like a bit beyond my mundane sensibilities.
Of course, it was these same sensibilities that made me get a sedan and choose steel gray metallic paint.
Luckily, the people on this board are a civilized bunch who can take a difference of opinion as just that. I for one would not be here if it wasn't for the open exchange of opinions and information.
Another thing that makes skidpad numbers difficult to compare is the fact you have to account for weather conditions (numbers on a cold, humid day vs those achieved on a hot, dry day and various other combinations).
habitat1 what is a significant difference in skidpad results? .02g, .03g?
Doing a plus-one size upgrade on your car shouldn't cause any major problems and should improve handling and steering noticably. There are slight trade-offs in ride quality, though. The ride will be a little rougher (smaller sidewall), but shouldn't be uncomfortable.
Before I bought my car, I had test driven two 323Ci's. Being coupe's, they both had sport suspension, but only one of them had the sport-package (17" performance rubber). IMHO, the handling gains with the bigger rubber were huge and well worth the slight decrease in ride comfort.
One additional note; if you live where there is snowfall, I would personally keep the 16" wheels, put on dedicated winter tires and swap them out for bad weather driving.
I'm not sure what a significant difference would be. I just dug up Road and Track's numbers and they list the 2001 M3 at 0.91 and the 330ci at 0.85. As I said, my old Toyota Supra came in at 0.99, but it required frequent trips to the dentist to have my fillings reinstalled.
My point was that they seem to be a very simplistic approach in an attempt to quantify handling. For example, in quick back and forth transitions on a winding road, the M3 seemed flat as a pancake. The regular 3-series, although very good, does seem to me to have more "body roll".
Similarly, I don't find 0-60 times so often quoted as the best measure of a car's performance when it comes to acceleration. Road and Track lists 0-100 times. Although 0-100 may not be a real world comparable, the relative differences in these times really separate the cars out. Many cars are bunched together in 0.3 to 0.5 second increments from 0-60. Take it up to 0-100 and the strong performers really stand out.
I agree. No one here should take offense to someone else's opinion on matters such as this. However, we seem to all agree on one matter, a 3er is as good as gold. And BTW,
....MY STEEL GREY 325i IS AT THE DEALERSHIP!!! Braveheart, any other sound advice besides Jerry's pickup list??? I just asked my dealer to fax over the key memory list...
One thing I would suggest is that when you inspect the car for scratches, etc. be sure that you look at it in varying lighting conditions. When I picked up my car, I looked it over very well in the showroom and it looked perfect. When the salesman pulled it out into the sunlight, I did one more walk-around and found several very fine scratches that were invisible inside. You could pretty much follow a line where some %##&$ walked up the side of the car (probably looking in the windows) with either a belt buckle or jacket zipper leaving a trail.
Yeah, BEWARE the car that has spent even five minutes on the showroom floor - it needs to be carefully checked in bright natural light for the very reasons suggested in post above. I've even seen salespeople, who lord knows should know better, leaning and lounging on cars in the showroom. A good whomping with a Nerf bat is called for in these cases, with the offending party banished forever from the car business...
When I saw the scratches in MY car, the last thing I thought about was a NERF anything. I was more in the mind set of aluminum bat filled with lead shot! ;-)
OK, the skidpad testing for the M3 is in the June '01 issue of C&D. The cover has a picture of the M3 and the CLK 55 AMG with "Blitzen Burners" written on it. The M3 was tested at .84 g's, the MB at .86 g's. If any of this is incorrect, take it up with my wife who looked up the info (I'm traveling).
Naming - it's good to be mature and responsible; it's also good not to act too grown up all the time and to touch base with your inner child. Try it, maybe you'll like yourself better and your kids will certainly feel closer to you.
0-100 times - good idea. They are very relevant for me and I agree that they are much better than 0-60 times. I also like 50-70 times - this is a lot closer to reality than 0-60.
jason - that's great news!! Print out the Motley Fool's pickup list too. Just take the time to go over the lists in advance (they're both overkill) so you can focus on the stuff most important to you on delivery day. You'll be so carried away by the car that your mind will not be working very logically and you should have a plan in advance (bullet points). It worked for me at least.
I still about 2 months from delivery of my steel blue 330i (production week 36), but I'm already getting anxious.
I've heard a couple rumors about the 2002's (CD might be standard, zenons might be standard), but my dealer doesn't have any definite info...not even the price. Anyone have the scoop?
Also, what are the Motley Fool's List and Jerry's Pickup List...and where can I find them?
I was reading some random posts from June and discovered your Smurf/Shtroumpf post. When I was a kid I used to watch Baba MishMish (aka Papa Smurf). 10 points to anyone that can guess what language that was. 100 points if you get the country right.
Comments
Glad to hear the 325 has more interior room than my jetta, and I although the jetta is fun to drive, I expect the
6 cyl BMW to pull much harder at higher speeds than my 1.8T 4cyl. I've always been a big 5-speed fan, so it's good to hear BMW's 5-speed is a great tranny. I think I'd go with H-K, CD, Xenons, and sport group, but that's about it. I like white, silver or non-metallic red.
The interior of my VW has that nice German feel, but BMW seems to use better materials. Is the leatherette nice? Any cooler than leather? (desert southwest here)
Brave1heart: you mention the SP tranny. Is that the standard n/c transmission, or an upgrade?
The Jetta handles well, but I'm guessing the BMW would make it feel like a tin can.
VW dealers have a terrible reputation for incompetent service departments, and VW has some known flaws (window regulators) in their cars that they are aware of, but won't recall. I'd like to know if BMW quality is truly a step up, and worth the higher lease payment than my VW. For the most part, I'm reading about less BMW owners disgusted with their dealer, or their purchase, than VW owners.
Are the 3-series German built? Jettas are Mexican-built of course, and I understand many of the M-B C-class are done in Brazil. Finally, is the C-class Benz worth a look compared to the 3-series?
Thanks all.
http://www.motortrend.com/july01/radar/radar_f.html
Is there a problem that BMW dealers are not selling them?
Thanks
Josh
I'm really excited, the boat is supposed to arrive with my car the 7th!
Upon arriving home yesterday, I noticed a couple of small gouges in the paint on the center of the hood, probably from flying grit or rocks while driving on I-95.
Does anyone have any recommendations on how to minimize the appearance of these gouges? Does Z-5 do the trick? Will buffing at a body shop or detailing shop help much?
All ideas welcome.
I see your point...sortof. I think the resale values you mention are in relation to the vehicle price when it was new. I don't know what S-class or E-class MB's sold for back in the late 80's, but I am guessing it was a pretty penny. In contrast, (again, guessing) I would say the older Honda's you see for sale had an original msrp in the low-mid teens?
20% of $50,000 = $10,000
20% of $15,000 = $3,000
1) what are wheel locks? - do they simply lock the wheels and hubs so no one can steel them??
2) what are coded keys???
thanks!
stg
It's HOT here in Phoenix, so maybe I should go with the sand leatherette, but I like black because it hides scuff marks etc better than sand would. It's a trade off I guess. Won't be needing heated seats here, either, one less thing to pay for!
So, being built in SA is not a problem as far as anyone can see, then? Still under German supervision, just someplace else?
Anybody know how the C-class compares? Are they built in deutchland? I think a C-class Benz sedan would be a bit expensive compared to the 3-series though.
Thanks.
Schwartz (a bit obvious but has a nice ring)
Wilhelm (Willie? I think not!)
Kaiser
Bismarck (sounds like a cream puff...)
Mauser (dont'know anything about guns, but like the sound of the name. Also what I call my cat Eos sometimes, for her hunting abilities)
Walther
Kurt (sounds abrupt)
Brecht (for Albrecht Durer)...hmmmmm...nah
Female:
Rosalinde (from Der Fledermaus)
Anna
Helga (um, no)
Do you guys see a theme here?
I'm leaning towards Mauser, Schwartz or Rosalinde. Any opinions/alternate suggestions?
bluewolf - sand is more luxurious, black is sportier IMO.
S.A.-built cars - they are the same cars; only drag is the longer wait but keep in mind that you can specify to your dealer that you want a German-built car if that is an issue for you.
Sure, the C-class is worth a drive. MB is trying very hard in this segment and it seems that they are making progress. However, nothing South of a Porsche 911 has the driving dynamics of a 3-series. And yes, the C class would be more expensive. To me at least, if you care about status, you buy an MB; if driving is what you care about, you buy a BMW.
I also have a slightly (!) awe-struck appreciation of this car.
Of course this is easier said than done as I'm terrible with names...My cat was nameless for over two weeks...I still call her "THE CAT" on occasion and I've had her for over three years.
If I had a boat, I would definitely name it...not anything cute...I don't think like that...
People used to name their houses as well some time ago...Mansfield Park, Brideshead, Manderlay to name a few
yes.
2) what are coded keys???
your key contains a small computer chip that allows you (the dealer) to 'program' it. Several programming options are available (ie auto. door locks @ 5 mph, unlocking driver door / all doors, etc) You can find a full list of key programming codes at http://www.e46fanatics.com under 'faqs' or you can get a list from your dealer.
I'm just curious where you saw the 325 rated higher than an M3 in lateral acceleration? That would be dramatically inconsistent with what my posterior was telling me. I previously owned a Toyota Supra Turbo with a skidpad rating of 0.99 and the M3 felt like it wasn't far off (and a lot smoother in the process).
If indeed your source is correct, then I would respectfully suggest "skidpad ratings" are an inaccurate measure of a car's real handling ability.
I won't mock those on this board who have named their cars, but it just isn't for me.
I just need to refer to my baby as something other than "my car" even if only on this board and in my head.
I have to admit, I'll never hear the end of it at home if I tell people I've named my car. (Actually, I made fun of my friend who named his Metro Lucy)
But this car has a distinct personality and deserves a name worthy of it. So play along...OK?
No offense to those who add another pet name
*sob*
(zooms off looking mortally offended)
Green Hornet, where are buzzing today when I need some help here? Still testing 0-110-0 in 700 yards?
Thanks
PS: Calvin? I don't get it.
No offense just trying to understand
I'm about 3k miles and am experiencing the louder engine described by many
drcr
The M3 is a car that can compete with 'Vettes and 911s. I'm willing to bet you'd feel a fair amount difference between a 325i w/SP and it.
don't have time now, but I'll try to dig up the reviews later.
Is there a noticable improvement?
As stated above, I am not mocking those who name theirs, but for me, it seems like a bit beyond my mundane sensibilities.
Of course, it was these same sensibilities that made me get a sedan and choose steel gray metallic paint.
habitat1 what is a significant difference in skidpad results? .02g, .03g?
Before I bought my car, I had test driven two 323Ci's. Being coupe's, they both had sport suspension, but only one of them had the sport-package (17" performance rubber). IMHO, the handling gains with the bigger rubber were huge and well worth the slight decrease in ride comfort.
One additional note; if you live where there is snowfall, I would personally keep the 16" wheels, put on dedicated winter tires and swap them out for bad weather driving.
I'm not sure what a significant difference would be. I just dug up Road and Track's numbers and they list the 2001 M3 at 0.91 and the 330ci at 0.85. As I said, my old Toyota Supra came in at 0.99, but it required frequent trips to the dentist to have my fillings reinstalled.
My point was that they seem to be a very simplistic approach in an attempt to quantify handling. For example, in quick back and forth transitions on a winding road, the M3 seemed flat as a pancake. The regular 3-series, although very good, does seem to me to have more "body roll".
Similarly, I don't find 0-60 times so often quoted as the best measure of a car's performance when it comes to acceleration. Road and Track lists 0-100 times. Although 0-100 may not be a real world comparable, the relative differences in these times really separate the cars out. Many cars are bunched together in 0.3 to 0.5 second increments from 0-60. Take it up to 0-100 and the strong performers really stand out.
To each their own.
....MY STEEL GREY 325i IS AT THE DEALERSHIP!!! Braveheart, any other sound advice besides Jerry's pickup list??? I just asked my dealer to fax over the key memory list...
Naming - it's good to be mature and responsible; it's also good not to act too grown up all the time and to touch base with your inner child. Try it, maybe you'll like yourself better and your kids will certainly feel closer to you.
0-100 times - good idea. They are very relevant for me and I agree that they are much better than 0-60 times. I also like 50-70 times - this is a lot closer to reality than 0-60.
jason - that's great news!! Print out the Motley Fool's pickup list too. Just take the time to go over the lists in advance (they're both overkill) so you can focus on the stuff most important to you on delivery day. You'll be so carried away by the car that your mind will not be working very logically and you should have a plan in advance (bullet points). It worked for me at least.
I've heard a couple rumors about the 2002's (CD might be standard, zenons might be standard), but my dealer doesn't have any definite info...not even the price. Anyone have the scoop?
Also, what are the Motley Fool's List and Jerry's Pickup List...and where can I find them?