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Mercedes-Benz S-Class
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Comments
"". If you can keep that S-Class running long enough, I'm sure
it will perform well on the track for the magazine writers. That has little to do with it's suitability for every day driving.""
Now your're telling me that the S-Class won the comparo because it's a track star? Oh gawd man get a grip on reality. The S-Class beat the pants off the DeVille in the same things most Cadillac owners look for in their precious Deville.
You mean to tell me you've gathered all your intelligence based on one issue of CR and a JD powers survey. Looks that way to me. You don't even read the magazines, and here I though you were at least a half-informed Cadillacer. Turns out you'll likely keep posting the same CR and JD links.
M
Lets see here, I currently own a '98 750iL, a '01 S600, a '95 G320, a '91 325iX, an '86 944 Turbo and a "01 Chev duramax pick-up. The S600 is a recent purchase. We were in California visiting friends and relatives. I rented a '01 Seville SLS for about 10 days. The car had about 4000 miles on it. THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE COMPARING TO AN S600???? I can see you have a personal vendetta against merc1, but your line of thinking is crazy. it doesn't even make sense to try and dispute it with you. The SLS I drove ran rough, was loosing exterior trim parts and had the worlds most annoying climate control. Instead of blowing a constant temp, it cycles about every 10 seconds between hot and cold to keep the temp even. Sure the MB and Caddy offer auto climate control, there is hardly a comparison to be made though. The Caddy system is garbage, like the rest of the car. You go ahead and love that Caddy. GM makes nothing but junk.
As for your CTSi, is it here yet? Will they actually follow through? Are you ready to see it slaughtered by an E-class AMG car with the 476hp supercharged V8?
My impression of the Caddy after a couple thousand miles is this. I have been driving premium German cars for about a decade. The Seville struck me as a good car for someone entering the luxo car arena. It is nice looking, and reasonable to drive (fwd stinks). It has the big name features. If you had never driven a 7 series BMW or S-Class you would likely be very impressed with this car. I, on the other hand, have been spoiled by the superiopr engineering that goes into the premium German cars. In that light the Caddilacs are WAY outclassed, no matter what JD and CR say.
Wake up MB owners...we can no longer except inferior products...it took 4 years to get the ML right...by that time competition has caught up. The LS430 IS a better made car (there are facts galore on this topic) however it does not appeal to eyes as much as the S. The C Class coupe is a piece of garbage and the current E Class is outdated and suffers from numerous mechanical problems. The only mb truly worth the 3 star on the hood is the new SL and the CL. i am only being honest!
M
I think all models suffer from one electronic quirk or another. I've had several: rain-sensing sensor won't sense, the gas gauge sometimes gives me fits. Do I complain to the dealer? heck yes. Would a GM owner? I suspect they're more concerned with the tranny dropping off the car somewhere along Rt.66.
But I could be wrong.
benznut,
I know right!! I can only imagine what V12power must go though trying to decide which V12 to drive on a daily basis. Everyone should experience a 12-cylinder car sometime in their automotive years.
M
Would a GM owner [worry]? I suspect they're more concerned with the tranny dropping off the car somewhere along Rt.66
I guess that's why BMW -- a more reliable brand than MB -- is using GM transmissions...
I took my 2001 S500 to have the windows tinted (for those of you wondering about the specifics, I got a 35 percent tint, which is legal in NYS apparently and will pass inspection, but not in NJ). The job came out looking super nice, I must say.
But when I picked the car up, I noticed what I thought was an imperfection in the application of the tint on the back rear window, right where the bottom of the window meets the trunk of the car. I thought it was just an elongated, narrow bubble that would go away in a few days as the window tinting outfit had told me to bring the car back in a week if there were bubbles or imperfections that hadn't gradually disappeared.
Well, since then, my inch-and-a-half long imperfecton has developed into a 4 or 5 inch long, multi-veined, full-fledged crack in the glass.
Is this an occasional hazard of window tinting? Frankly, I never heard of this problem before. Could the tinter have used one of his tools so forcefully as to have cracked this thick glass? The area it occured in does seem perhaps more delicate and prone to damage as it is right where the glass meets the parcel shelf so there is very little space to work in.
Or is it more likely that this is a stress crack in the window from chassis flex, which often happens in convertibles, for example (in which case it's a warranty issue)?
I can't even imagine how much this will cost to repair -- the defroster element is embedded as part of the window and I'm sure the glass part alone is over $1000, let alone labor charges to install it.
Any one have a similar experience or know about this issue?
Here's the way that I look at it. If you want Benz S Class, you're not really going to be looking at all the things you look for in an economy car. You're not really going to look at reliabilty and resale value. You're gonna look at the way it drives and the fact that it's a flagship car.
My parents own a 1994 S Class and I must say that it's one of the best cars out there. For anyone looking for a great car look to the W140(92-99) or w126(81-91) s classes. I feel that back then M-B's were overengineered for the customer's own good.
Wrong, yet again!
Someone posted a link elsewhere, and guess who is leading BMW in reliability in every class:
http://www.spiegel.de/auto/werkstatt/0,1518,grossbild-179773-193601,00.html
M
I can read English, and your reference contradicts both CR and JD Powers. Oh how that must irritate fanatics like you -- knowing that the dependability of MB model configurations sold here in the U.S., which is all that really matters for most people here, is at the bottom of the luxury barrel.
1994 S Class and I must say that it's one of the best cars out there.
It's a shame they don't build them like that any more....
You'll have to do better than that merc. At least translate it and tell us what kind of study was done. Also tell us how German model configurations differ from U.S. models.
-Anti Merc
Oh how that must irritate Cadillac fans that they have built better cars than before and nobody cares, because the main indicator of that (resale) is still in the toilet.
I posted that because you said that BMW is a more reliable "brand" than MB and it clearly isn't. ISN'T BMW lower on the scale overall than MB, from the data you yourself posted?
Don't use "not being able to read German" as an excuse, it's as clear as the day is long what the survey is saying. Look at the cars with the lowest scores and the ones with the highest, common sense will tell you which end if the "good" section of the chart.
M
It is good to see that you are finally given to reading these studies and taking them to heart. Perhaps now you will finally admit that MB builds cars that are less dependable than Cadillac. That is the only point I wanted to make. I think MB may score higher in the "fun-to-drive" and panache categories. I also think Cadillac has come a long way, and that the CTS is the beginning of a renaissance for Cadilac. It is certainly fun to drive. While Cadillac has been improving in recent years MB has, in contrast, suffered from declining reliability.
As far as my comments on your link are concerned, you failed to read my questions yet again. Here it is in the simplest of terms so that you may understand it:
Does your study discuss long-term reliability or initial quality?
-AM
Secondly for the difference in "fun to drive" (per you) and those other things that make a Mercedes so appealing for a many, a mere point of advantage in a reliability survey isn't enough to warrant getting a Cadillac. Truth be told the two brands have never appealed the same group of people anyway at large. I can see one buying a Lexus, a car that is like a Mercedes in many engineering respects along with significantly greater reliability, but a Cadillac with a point of great reliability won't ever appeal to a true Benz fan because a Cadillac really isn't in the same league is so many other respects. Again, the study posted was for the first year of use.
"And who cares about BMW?" YOU brought BMW up just because you wanted to take another uninformed swipe at MB, hence the "correction" in your post.
M
JD Power long term reliability rankings: Jaguar #3, Lincoln #, Cadillac #8, MB #10, BMW #14.
CR April 2002 reliability (p. 27): MB S-Class ~40% below average. Cadillac Deville ~25% below average.
Your fanaticism will never change those cold hard facts. Go ahead an beat your head against the wall if you wish.
because what you never could answer is why is ALL of Cadillac's sedans on the list to "avoid"
I didn't see the Eldorado on the list. I see you've changed your tune and limited the scope of your statement. Lets not forget that the Escalade never made the list while the M-Class is on the list for every year that it was manufactured.
I don't care one whit where BMW ranks. Moreover, I was man enough to admit that I was wrong about BMW. I doubt you will ever have the courage or sense of honor to do the same.
You need to be tapped on the shoulder you're stuck on repeating everything. Can't you read what I posted? I said all of Cadillacs SEDANS were on the list, you even posted exactly what I wrote and then you turn around and ask me about the Eldorado. Man, look at your own post. Or don't you see the word "SEDAN" in my post, now lets see if you're MAN enough to admit you missread what I posted in the beginning. I CLEARLY STATED ALL OF CADILLAC'S SEDANS, SEDANS, SEDANS, SEDANS.....meaning their 4-door models. Duh. If you don't care about BMW then don't bring BMW up, because yes you were wrong again. I haven't been "wrong" about anything. You can make statistics say what you want, that is as old a time itself. I *could* look at those very same stats and say "gee, Mercedes' cars are way more complicated and technically advanced that Cadillac's yet MB still ranks 10th overall in reliability".........if I wanted to look at it that way. So keep on posting the same crapola.
Lastly just like they don't mention the Eldo or the Escalade, I don't see the CL, SL, E and C MB models on the avoid list, a lot more models than a Chevy Truck With Leather and the antique Eldorado. It would truly be ashame if the Eldo was on the list considering Cadillac has had 10 years to get the bugs out, but then again they can't do it with the Seville.
Now again, it doesn't matter about the Seville right? Because "it's going out of production soon" right?? Pathetic.
M
You might choose to ignore part of a manufacturers lineup, but I will not. M-Class and CLK (along with the already mentioned S-Class) owners have enjoyed abysmal reliability. You might choose to ignore that, but I doubt real owners do. Oh I forgot. A friend or a friend once let you back his S-Class out of the driveway.
CR April 2002, p. 27 - 2002 reliability:
Deville 25% below average
S-Class 40% below average
M-Class 50% below average
Seville 60% below average
CLK 94% below average (right there with the Jeep Grand Cherokee)
Why don't you ever have anything to say about the JD Power long-term reliability study? Not once have you responded to the JD Power power study. Could it be because it contradicts your fanatical belief that MB can do no wrong?
"I don't see the CL, SL, E and C MB models on the avoid list"
Of course you don't see the CL and SL on the list. CR doesn't get enough surveys back on those models to make any kind of a recommendation, good or bad. If you took the time to actually read the magazine, you might have a better understanding of their methods.
They do collect data on the C and the E, however. They are merely average.
Unlike either of you guys arguing, I happen to have experience with both. I spent 10 days driving a Seville around LA this winter. Immediately following that I bought the S600 and drove it home 2500 miles. There is no comparison, and you know that too. It is a ridiculous assertion that any GM product can compete with MB. I would push a C-class on flat tires before I would buy any Caddicrap.
Keep dreaming, better yet keep working, and maybe someday you be able to afford an S-class. You will find that most if not all of your arguments are absurd. My experience with MB has been that, yes there has been a lapse, no it is not of near the proportions you exaggerate too. My new MB is awesome, and much more reliable than the BMW sitting next to it in the garage. No matter how reliable Caddy gets I will never drive one of those FWD GM heaps. In case you didn't know, they are the biggest joke in the luxury market. But you just keep believing they are better than MB. Tell everybody you know, that should be good for a laugh. Yeah, I bought a caddy cause its a better car than MB. Best of luck in fantasy land bub.
That's a ridiculous assertion given the evidence, and you know it. There are plenty of owners who disagree with you; some of them right here on this forum.
There is no comparison, and you know that too. It is a ridiculous assertion that any GM product can compete with MB
MB's gadgets don't justify their bloated prices. There are different forms of competition, my friend. In some ways, the Deville comes out the winner, and in others the S-Class comes out the winner. The S-Class ought to come out the winner in all categories, including reliability, at that ridiculous price point. The fact that it doesn't is pathetic.
Keep dreaming, better yet keep working, and maybe someday you be able to afford an S-class.
I wonder if I will ever be willing to throw that much money away on a car that gets the reliability ratings that the S-Class does. Would I consider an LS430? By all means. I came very close to buying one, but the incentives on the Deville made it a pretty good value, so I chose value over high-end luxury.
I like the way the larger BMWs drive, but I wouldn't want to live with their abysmal reliability any more than I would want to live the abysmal reliability of the S-Class.
Best of luck in fantasy land bub.
Say what you want, but thinking the S-Class is a more reliable car than its rivals seems pretty fantastical to me. The S-Class may be fun to drive, and may help keep the egos of its owners in the stratosphere, but it remains an unreliable car.
I'll go when I'm good and ready to go, and I'm not quite ready yet.
AM
Honestly we are tired of the back and forth remarks that are getting old. Tell us something that we do not know, something interesting.
Merc1
It is not worth continuing anymore. You cannot change one's opinion, even if it is that Cadillac is better than MB. That is the beauty of having opinions. The discussion here, however, has gotten as ugly and futile as it can be.
What info is out there with regard to the facelifted S.
You are here for only one reason, to screw with Merc. Get a Life.
Oh, I like the "incentives" comment regarding a DeVille purchase. That happens when GM can't sell their junk. Must be great cars when you have to drop the price to get them out of the showrooms every fall.
Folks like you are a riot, quoting JD and CR but having no clue about cars in general beyond that. It is the only excusable reason for buying a Caddilac, pure ignorance! It is not gadgets that make the S-Class a superior car. Seems to me the DeVille is pretty well gadget laden itself. Caddilacs are truly geared towards the non-driver, the guy who wants the illusion of a fine automobile. I would use technical automotive terms to describe to you the actual differences in an MB product vs GM but it would be obviously over your head and a waste of my time.
Where did you see me post that MB could do no wrong? That's something you made up in your mind because you have wreath and crest stuck in your head. My point is that MB cars aren't the bad cars you're trying to make them out to be, nor is a Cadillac a better overall car. And if you don't believe me about my experiences with MB cars then you have yet another problem.
M
Thanks.
Pat
Sedans Host
Wow! Look at all of the vitriol. Now you know how Caddy enthusiasts feel when Merc1 spouts his fanatical drivel in the Caddy forums. Remember it, and remember it well.
Merc1:
Did you not read what I wrote about the CL and SL? I guess not. Go back and read it sonny.
CR's silence regarding the CL should by no means be looked upon as an endorsement. Moreover, the CL has too much in common with the S-Class to believe it can be much more reliable than the S-Class.
The C and the E are average, although the latter is bit dated. Of course we have no idea how well the new E and C will hold up in the long-term. If MB hasn't done anything to rectify their reliability problems as a whole, I wouldn't expect much.
If you want to talk about the MB linup as a whole, I point you again to the JD power survey, which looks at these brands as a whole. I don't have to tell you what the results say yet again do I?
Benznut:
I did give you some new information last post. Even I am shocked by the CLK's attrocious reliability record. 94% below average. That's pathetic. Only a few vehicles, like the ancient Chevy Astro, fared worse. Pathetic.
v12power:
"If that is the premise you base this on, you really need to open your eyes. CR has no clue about cars, it is the single worst source for auto information out there. I don't look to JD for anything."
I give you statistics, and you give me your opinions. That seems to be a common theme with you MB fanatics. Your opinions regarding reliability are insignificant and meaningless next to the reams of data collected by CR and JD Power. If you want to tell us about your experiences, fine, but don't expect me or any other potential owner to accept your observations as anything more than interesting anecdotes. Where reliability is concerned, the experiences of a single individual are statisticly insignificant.
You are here for only one reason, to screw with Merc. Get a Life.
And your here to do what? Balloon your already inflated ego? To tell us how MB is more reliable than other brands without a shred of evidence to back it up? To shut down any reasonable discussion of MB's faults?
Who cares; I'm having fun with this.
THAT is what I was referring to when I accused you of twisting the facts. Look, you have done exactly that!
I also think JDP is flawed as they do not address the types of problems owners experience. When the paint peels off your Caddy and the engine blows a head gasket I think those are more actual PROBLEMS, than when I have to have a power window switch replaced on my MB.
As I read the JDP report it looks to me like the top 20 are all pretty close. Lexus obviously is far and away superior, Infinity is very good and everybody else is close with only incremental differences.
When you are adult enough to have an intelligent discussion on MBs faults, I would be happy to participate. I have owned several, in addition to several comparable machines. My anecdotal evidence would be far more helpful than your twisting the available facts. Once again, it is my impression that you have no real mechanical knowledge of automobiles. That kind of makes the exercise worthless. School yourself a little and come on back.
Let's take this conversation over there and let these good people here join us there if they want to do so. Then we can let this conversation go back to the S-Class - which is indeed what it is here for.
I could even move any of your posts over there if you'd like me to do so - just tell me which ones and I'll be happy to do that.
Pat
Sedans Host
It really has nothing to do with what is wrong with MB. It has everything to do with people playing TROLL. You see, markhampton really doesn't care if there are problems at MB or not. The goal is to exact some sort of vengance on merc1 for his comments about Caddillac. As evidence I suggest you check the signature left by markhampton in some of his posts. It reads "Anti-Merc".
My point is that is that a couple of our Town Hall members want to pursue very intensely an issue that is not appropriate in this discussion. Therefore it needs to go elsewhere and I have given them suggestions for how to continue this, if indeed it needs to continue.
The argument that has been taking place is not appropriate here under any circumstances, as you have already noted.
Nor is this conversation between you and me appropriate here - please feel free to email me (you or anyone else) if you want to continue this conversation.
I do appreciate your perspective; let's just take it off-line.
Thanks!
Pat
Sedans Host
What next? Unfortunately for you this is where it gets even more difficult to get satisfaction. They have sent out a regional rep, you are nearing the top of the decision making ladder. It will be tough to convince anybody that he is wrong.
I assume that the alignment specs have been checked and re-checked. Has more than one tech or dealer tried it? They may allow you to try a different dealers alignment rack, worth a try. I have another "long shot" for you. My car has Brabus rims. I would contact them. Ask if they use different alignment specs when they fit larger wheels to a W220 chassis. They have been doing it longer than MB and may have some insight.
I know I brought this up before but, are you sure it is not being caused by the crown in the road? ie; pulls left in the left lane, pulls right in the right lane. On a four lane highway, two lanes each direction, the car may pull slightly as described above. If the car pulls right while in the left lane, there is definitely a problem.
Another possibility is the tires. One tire with a bad belt in it could cause this problem, even with perfect alignment. You could try rotating the spare through each position looking for a change in behavior. What size wheel is your spare? I know my 600 requires a 17" to clear the brakes(we have larger brakes than the S500). I suspect your car requires the same. I doubt they supply another 18" AMG wheel. Regardless, whatever is there should be close enough in overall diameter to make the test work.
I suspect the dealer will go along with a different alignment rack idea. The spare tire rotation may have to be your saturday project. Who knows though, if the dealer values your business he may play. Be sure to be present if possible. You do not need another yo-yo to tell you everything is OK when it is not.
Have you been able to drive another S55 for comparison? That would be another indicator. It is really a shame you ended up with a rep unwilling to help. I have had the same experience with Ford GM and Dodge, you kind of expect it there though. I would continue to press the issue until a) they fix it or b) they provide an identical car with identical driving characteristics(the pull). Until then they have not proven conclusively that there is no problem. Best of luck, keep us posted. I will be interested to hear the outcome. I maintain that there is something awry still.
Since v12power asked the question, I will answer it before parting ways with this lovely board, and its fine readers:
How about you take on the comments regarding Cadillac's position in the JDP ratings?
My take is this:
Lexus: Somewhat higher price, highest reliability
Cadillac: Lowest price, somewhat lower reliability
S-Class: Highest price, lowest reliability
In the case of Lexus and Cadillac, you essentially get what you pay for. You can draw your own conclusions regarding the S-Class.
Next up you're posting/saying the same things over and over again. To prove you don't know what in the hell you're talking about. The E-Class has been around since 1996, and if that isn't enough time to gauge it's long-term performance I don't know what is. Why don't you bother to read R&T they had an issue within the last year that profiled the E-Class from 1996-2000, read it and then get the egg off your face.
Equally "pathetic" is the Seville which has been junk for over 2 generations now. Period.
Amazingly you say I don't know anything because I don't own a Benz, but yet you TELL the people that do own one they don't know what they're talking about either! I'm glad you're on Cadillac's tip cause I personally wouldn't wany anyone so ignorant speaking about MB's...in their favor. Yeah V12 has an ego problem, yet his post read like that don't they...yeah sure, how about you're jealous of what he has in his garage.
M
Cadillac: Lowest price, somewhat lower reliability
S-Class: Highest price, lowest reliability"
When are you going to take into account that the LS430 and S-Class are far more advanced cars than the King of fleet sales, Livery/hearse favorite DeVille? The difference in reliability between the S and DeVille isn't anywhere near enough to make many switch to a Cadillac.
Funny how you'd holding up Lexus when they're eating Cadillac alive and the ES300 is steady gaining on the DeVille for that number one sales spot.
M
Guys, put a lid to it, will you?
No more parting shots, last words, final explanations, rebuttals - no message whatsoever posted in this manner will remain in this discussion. If anyone sees such, drop me an email - I can't promise instant response, but I *can* promise that I will make getting here my top priority.
And you would help me if you don't respond, because I'll just have to remove your responses also.
Pat
Sedans Host
http://mbspy.bacosys.be/w221.htm
What is up with the tranmission stalk at the back of the steering wheel, ala-new-seven? Mercedes does not need to copy BMW in anything. I like the gated shifter of the current car. I cannot say the same about the leather-booted ones in the new editions of SL, and E. I know that MB is trying to looks sportier by resembling a manual transmission. However, the esposed-gate-shifters are classier in my opinion (think Ferrari manuals)
Anyway, isn't the new S coming a little too soon? 2005? The facelifted S will come at 2003.