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Yesterday evening the driving through freezing rain was horrible for most everybody in my neighbourhood except me. Of course common sense dictates slowing down and adapting your driving to the weather conditions.
I think that the main factor in traction (for 2 wheel drive cars) is the percent of weight distribution on the driving wheels. Like Kneisl1, I too noticed phenomenal performance in my 1967 VW bug in slippery conditions. And my 1987 Sprint is maybe even better. (And that is without benefit of snow tires)
I have not been able to find data on weight distribution for the Echo, or for any new cars, for that matter. I asked the Toyota dealer, but I think I just got a b.s. answer. Does anybody know a source for this information?
It would be nice to have a pick of the tire as an option for all cars...so you could get the tire you want for the driving you do.
Mike
You are so right! That is one of the most ridiculous reasons I have ever heard for favoring one car over another--that it seats five while the other seats four (comfortably). I want to thank you because you have saved me from a costly mistake. I am going to call the Toyota dealer first thing tomorrow and cancel my Prius order. Then I'm going to buy an ECHO, a 4-door with automatic, power everything, heated mirrors, ABS with traction control and EBD, automatic climate control, alloys, voice-controlled navigation, side air bags and curtains, HID headlamps, VSD, steering-wheel controls for audio/climate/phone, cruise, Homelink, and the PZEV emissions option. Then whenever my entire family of five needs to go someplace, I'll just explain that someone needs to stay home. I think that is a small price to pay for the money I'll save buying the ECHO.
Question for all the ECHO owners out there: has anyone done a hatchback conversion on an ECHO? I really like the versatility of the hatchback configuration, and the Yaris isn't available here unfortunately, nor are the Scion xA and xB--closest things to an ECHO hatchback in the States. If you did the conversion, what did it cost and what did it look like afterwards? Can you post a photo? Thanks.
Mileage on the 2002 prius was always in the mid to high 50's under any reasonable conditions. Same conditions for the echo mid to high 40's.
Both cars good in the snow and ice with regular tires.
Prius is a litle bigger but you are not going to have 3 adults in the back with alot of room in either car- Incl. the 2004 upgrade prius. Size is size but I have sen a lot of mid-size SUV's with no more room than this.
Prius price new=$21500 22000 out the door.Price for the echo @9000 miles was $9150 out the door. Echo has remote keyless entry, ac, auto, split/fold seats, 3-in-1 6 speaker sound, cc, trunk and stroage spots all over the car incl. under the passenger seat, heated mirrors not needed here nor an alarm, safety ratings better than prius. Go the thing off e-bay and it is the best echo ever owned /tested.scion xa was cramped and had less room small trunk,and cost a lot more than a new loaded echo [dont see the advantage-utility/economy is the gold standard for this class...]
So, you have to test drive-lookat-resaerch- make up your own mind.
Under BEST mileage conditions I got 60 mpg in the prius on a long trip and 55 mpg in an echo.
Don Gillespie
Montgomery,AL
Who's forcing you? Keep your ECHO and drive happy!
P.S. With the average price of a new car at around $25k now--which is what a fully-loaded Prius costs--there must be a lot of wealthy people in the U.S. Also I think very few states, Virginia for one, allow hybrid owners to drive in the HOV lanes with only the driver. So that's not a factor for most hybrid owners.
The motivation for many to buy an Echo is frugality. I am one of those that want to drive a car that is inexpensive to by, to maintain and operate, excellent on gas with a low impact on the environment.
To buy a Prius arguing that it get's outstanding mileage is in my view misguided. If you want to save, don't spend an extra $15k and buy an Echo. The extra mileage and savings achieved compared to an Echo is impossible to justify economically.
If you have the $$ and want a car that get's very good MPGs, has a little bit more room, better ride and is at the cutting edge of technology, go ahead and get a Prius. But don't tell anybody you do it because you want to save money.
Thank god we have plenty of choices when it comes to buying cars and I support freedom of choice, please don't misunderstand my comment.
I just think it is hilarious when people say it is so economical.
Excellent mileage: YES.
Economical: NO.
Economical compared to a minivan--yes.
The Echo was one of the early test vehicles, and did well.
"Earning four stars were two SUVs, the Volvo XC90 and the Chevrolet Trailblazer 4x4; two station wagons, the Ford Focus and the Subaru Outback; the Chevrolet Silverado 4x4 and 4x2 pickups; and the compact Toyota Echo. Four stars means the likelihood of rolling over in a one-vehicle crash is 10 percent to 20 percent."
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/7877299.htm
I hope you all are well and happy!
I also bought an Echo from Longo, in April of 2002.
When I bought the Echo from Longo they had about 20 or so in stock. When I bought the Scion, they told me they had no Echo's in stock, they would sell them if they could get them, but they aren't available. I asked them if this had anything to do with Scions and Echos coming off the same assembly line, and Toyota gearing up to sell more Scions than Echos. They just smiled.
Anyway, last week I checked their website and they actually had about 6 Echos in stock.
Certainly the days of stipper, under $10k stick shift, no power steering no aircon Echos seem gone forever.
You might try Enterprise. They have been running nicely optioned Echos as rental cars.
Here is what I posted:
I currently own a Scion xA with stick shift and 5,000 miles, but in 2002 had an Echo with automatic for 7,000 miles. It's been my mother's car for about 14 months and now has only 10,000 miles, but it needed some warranty work from Toyota, so I loaned her one of my cars and brought the Echo back north. While I have it, I can't resist upgrading the Echo, partly for the fun of it, and partly before I do anything to the Scion xA which I might regret, and some of the upgrades are pertinent to this discussion (and to the xA discussion, which is mostly moribund).
I am surprised how responsive the Echo is, even with an automatic. I guess that is the benefit of being about 400 pounds lighter than the Scion xA. Likewise, although I don't have a tachometer to confirm it, the engine seems a lot less "busy" than the Scion xA. One person posted an rpm calculator which indicated 75mph is about 3,000 rpm, which may be right and compares favorably to the 3,750 rpm on the Scion xA.
The Echo seems a tad - but only a touch - noiser than the Scion xA, which is surpising considering a good portion of the 400 pound weight differential on the Scion supposedly went into sound proofing. At highway cruise, the main difference in noise is some wind buffeting of the driver window. Engine noise is low on both cars, noise up through the tires is similar. That having been said, the Scion feels much better - solid, quite, deluxe. The Echo feels a little "tinny." But I can't put my finger on why, because the radio test - how loud I have to turn the radio on to hear it at highway speeds - indicates both cars are similar.
Anyway, I dropped in a K&N air filter on the Echo (also fits the Scion) to see if there was any performance increase, and swapped out the factory muffler for a Dynomax Super Turbo, the 17709 verions which is 7" round and 18" long. This is supposed to breathe much better than factory stock, but is very, very quiet. Truth is, I don't notice much difference in pep after the changes, but the motor doesn't seem to "roar" as much when it throws a downshift on a freeway onramp. In other words, the factory system is not "choking" this motor. I will say this though: the Echo took a long time to break-in, and now the motor and tranny are much more responsive. Also, since I am not worried about thrashing the car, I am driving it more aggressively - getting on the throttle to force downshifts instead of pussyfooting it. Driven this way, the Echo is surprisingly sporty. I wish the Scion were 400 pounds lighter!
One piece of curiosity when the Echo, muffler was removed, is that there was no electrical plug into the muffler. The Echo brochure and website indicate that there is supposed to be an electrically operated "cut out" in the muffler that opens and closes based on engine load and rpm, to allow better breathing when performance demands it. In fact, there is NO electrical lead to the muffler. Maybe it's in the resonator - the resonator before the muffler is about as big as some Civic sport compact mufflers, and almost as big as the stock muffler, and in fact the car wasn't that loud with the stock muffler off altogether (the muffler shop tried Flowmaster and Magnaflow mufflers before I settled on the Super Turbo).
So why am I reporting this? Because on my xA, I get a boom/resonating noise between 65 and 80. It's about the only thing I don't like about the xA (other than the laughable "trunk") and I'd like to get rid of the droning noise. My bet is a Super Turbo will do the job, at a lot less cost (and possibly less noise) than the TRD aftermarket muffler. The overall increase in exhaust noise will be less, and in fact the Super Turbo has a nice "sound" to it.
I paid $165 for parts and installation - $120 of that was a parts charge for the Dynomax 17709 muffler which is no longer current stock (the 17710 is the same size, slightly larger input and output, but easily adaptable to the Echo's tiny pipe size). I found out after the fact that you can mail order Dynomax's for considerably less - the 17710 mail order is only $67!
Any one else done intake or exhaust work yet?
My 2001 ECHO's Scheduled Maintenance Guide states that at 30.000 Miles or 2 years spark plugs need to be replaced, which is required under the Emission Control Warranty. I would like to know if there are any newer model owners that can share with me if this is the same guideline for their models.
I am puzzled by the fact that it seems to soon to change spark plugs. The Corolla 2004 I just bought requires the same change but at 120.000 miles or 96 months.
Any ideas?
THANK YOU!!
I got rid of this car due to instability in crosswinds and "dartiness" at highway speeds.
Curiously enough it felt plenty solid on the drive home no the interstate; hummed along at 85 mph with nary a complaint, though I tried to keep it down to 76 so I wouldn't get a ticket (posted 70 mph, and the California CHP are in a "write a ticket, raise money for our broke state" mode).
I have ordered Monroe Sensatracs, which are made for European Yaris's but are sold here by Monroe for Echos. The tech support line told me they should be much firmer than American stock and I will let you know when I get them on. However, quite frankly I find stock fairly firm. On my Scion xA, the stock struts and shocks are WAY too harsh, to the point where I was going to dump the car, but after 5,000 miles they have softened up considerably. On the Echo, my goal is to hit midway between stock Echo and stock xA - firm enough to lose the susceptibility to crosswinds, not as firm as the teeth juddering xA.
My interest in the Echo has been rekindled by the Scion. Although the Echo isn't as nicely styled as the xA, it has a certain character and, much more importantly, a TRUNK. The xA has a laughably small space behind the rear seat. The xB has much more passenger space, but the luggage space is equally small. Both the Scions can, of course, fold down their seats and gain lot of luggage space, at the cost of rear seat passengers.
The xA seems more solid, but not a lot quieter, than the Echo. I am wondering why the xA is 400 pounds more than the Echo!
BTW, for the life of me I couldn't get the air filter in. The clearance on the Echo is so tiny unless you disconnect a bunch of hoses. I had to have a shop put in the new air filter.
Keep in mind that the iridium plugs apparently sell for $11 each on the internet, while the conventional plugs are 1.20 each. Also, my mechanic cautions against leaving plugs in for 100,000 miles, he says 50,000 miles is enough, or they will be too hard to get out of the cylinder head, in bad shape etc. So maybe the economics of the cheaper plugs in the Echo is not unreasonable.
My dealer doesn't charge extra labor for the 30,000 mile service on the Echo, just the parts for the replacement plugs. Rationale is, service charges on their "packages" are flat rated for cars with or without longlife plugs. However, my dealer told me to wait for coupons to come in, get it done cheaper.
Since my mother's Echo is approaching its two year anniversary, but only has 10,000 miles, I may do the plug change and other 30k services early, at 15,000 miles, just so the car has a good going over before the warranty (bumper to bumper) expires.
Sure is nice to have an additional 5 years, 60,000 miles on the power train. Honda doesn't offer that.
Later and thanks for your help.
I'm not sure why it would be necessary to change them any sooner than necessary. If I was just worried that they may be hard to extract after 100k-mi, then I'd just take them out after 30k-mi, slip a little anti-seize grease on the threads and torque them back in. Assuming that they aren't fouled or worn, why throw out working iridium plugs?
On the topic of sales: There's hardly any marketing, so it's not surprising that the car is not selling. A few months ago we went to a Rockets game in Houston's new Toyota Center. During the game the arena-encircling scoreboard would periodically scroll ads for every Toyota model -- except the ECHO. On the concourse, there are showroom-like displays of every Totota model -- except the ECHO. I get the impression that Toyota would't mind seeing this car just fade away.
The first thing I noted was more noise from the body of the car. The new dampers are sufficiently "stiff" to transmit more noise into the body. However, the ride doesn't feel appreciably stiffer. Like the Scion, though, it is now a little "choppy."
I will report back on whether handling has improved and wind resistance has improved (the goal by going to replacement dampers). The stock Echo is an excellent handler on the street, its deficiencies only come out at higher speeds, where the body rolls a bit and doesn't dampen out fast enough in transitions (left-right-left).
Quite honestly, on this second visit to the Echo, I am impressed by what a good little handler it is, in stock form.
I'll let you know whether the Echo has been "scioned" and is now too harsh, or is just firmer enough to eliminate the cross wind issue I had with it last year.
BTW, I like the muffler and K&N filter a little better now. Noise level is not up from the air box or exhaust, but the engine seems to rev easier and not sound as thrashed when it downshifts on hard acceleration (it sounded like it was working pretty furiously, before).
1) I've got a 2001 Echo with 25K miles. I changed spark plugs at the request of the dealership at 2yrs (only 15K miles). Should I change plugs every 2 yrs regardless of mileage? I do a lot of city driving in cold weather.
2) My Echo has been mechanically perfect but now the horn failed? Any ideas? Luckily still under warranty but I've gotta make time to get it into the dealership.
3) My Echo has Goodyear Integrity tires. When did people first have to get new tires? Are Michelin X-Radials from a warehouse club any good?
4) Once the car is off warranty, I was going to do even more of the maintenance. Other than "inspecting" a variety of components, anything that I should replace other than oil (mobil -1 synthetic every 5K) and oil filter (puralator-pure one) and the air filter every 2 yrs. Is there anyway to do more work on the Echo without lifting it up on jacks? I'm afraid of the thing landing on me. I've seen some bad accidents.
5) Anyone found any decent wiper blades for the Echo in the appropriate sizes that don't sqeak? I've never replaced wiper blades myself, any advice on how to go about it?
Thank you all for your help!
I fully agree:
MORE ECHOs in America = fewer GIs in Mid-East
I check the cv joint boots every tinme I change the oil (three times a years) I use ramps to get the car up in the air. Theyre probably good for many years and miles but if they go the axles will have to be replaceed. Check the fuses for your horn I suggest. I would also change your oil at least three times a year since you ride in the city. Good luck!
The best thing to do is to submit your comments directly to the editors using this link: editor@edmunds.com. Alternatively you can click on one of the Help links (at the very bottom of the page and also on the left sidebar) and then click on "Contact Us" and convey your comments that way.
Let us know what response you get!
Someday, one hopes, fuel efficiency and economy of ownership will again become marketing points. To get to that point more quickly, it surely would be helpful for the automakers and the commentators (like Edmunds, like Click and Clack)to realize the dangerous dependence of this nation on oil imports, and to take the lead in helping to educate the public about it.
But I believe that what Pogo said (We have met the enemy and it is us) is very applicable, too. We, as a nation, do not bother to educate ourselves about the true nature of the oil problem, and we, collectively, install decision makers (of both political parties)in government who will not or cannot address the issue.
Crisis can often motivate democracies to act on tough problems, and the events of 9/11 might have been used by leaders to put into place new fuel efficiency standards or other policies to reduce our dependence on oil. At that time the public was ready to make some sacrifices; one modest sacrifice could have been a gasoline tax to help pay for the war against terrorism and at the same time help to reduce fuel consumption. History aches for such acts of leadership.
In the meantime, until the next crisis, please continue your campaign for the Echo and for small efficient cars. There are many people who are cheering!
It will always be better than an SUV, but when comparing a Camry with a tC (for example) you get the same mileage and at that point if you want a lot of room you go for the bigger car.
As part of the "major" 30,000 mile service, you should have also had the coolant replaced. Recommended, but not required by the warranty booklet, is brake fluid replacement (which you can usually defer to 24-36 months of service - it's a moisture contamintion issue, not a usage issue). My dealer also likes to do a "minor" auto transmission service, which is to drain and replace a portion of the tranny fluid (even though it is currently a synthetic). At 60,000 miles they recommend a full flush of the tranny. This is not required at all by the warranty booklet, but is generally considered a good idea to keep the tranny free of problems.
I agree with Kneisel that plugs usually have a longer life, even the conventional (non-platinum) plugs "most" Echos come with (I have heard that some came with iridium plugs - mine are conventional). The way to know whether you have conventional or longlife plugs is to read the sticker under the hood, which indicates what kind of plugs your car has. Also check your owner's manual.
A non-demanding driver can usually get 30,000 miles from conventional plugs. This is due to the high voltage electronic ignition systems in these cars. However, conventional electrodes begin to wear around the edges - they don't "go out of gap," but the square edges get softer, and sparkplugs rely on "sharp" edges to discharge most effectively (the platinum/iridium coatings don't prevent deposits, they just prevent the "edge wear"). Neon enthusiasts (of which I guess I am one, since I have a Neon too) also have conventional plugs, and the recommended "performance upgrade" is NOT to change to platinum plugs, but to change out the conventional plugs at 10-15,000 miles, to keep them at optimal performance.
I would follow the dealer's recommendations to keep the warranty (including the extended power train warranty) in place, but don't hesitate to shop for other dealers' prices, and make sure you are on "coupon" mailing lists. Most dealers will also match coupons from other Toyota dealers, so a good strategy is to have your car serviced at the same dealer, so you have a friend to negotiate warranty repairs for you from Toyota, but use their coupons or have them match other dealer's coupons to get the cheapest service price.
The only thing I don't like about my local Toyota dealer, is they offer oil additives and other fluid additives, which are a big "no no" from the oil companies etc. However, these extra price additives are optional, and my local dealer does great work otherwise.
I like the Echo, and even have my mom's Echo back on loan. However, to put things into context, you need to compare it to the Scion. I checked the purchase paperwork on my Scion against the Echo, and the Scion was only about $1,000 more than my stripped Echo - yet the Scion has power windows, power locks, power mirrors, luxury upholstery, a stunning dash, and "aftermarket" sound system ---and the car magazines all love it, rave about it, etc. Why? Because of the price/value ratio. Essentially, under the skin, they are the same car, I can assure you, and the Echo is even more practical, with its very large trunk, bigger than the xA OR the xB. The only "measurable" Scion advantage is the xB has more rear seat legroom due to an extended wheelbase.
In short, if the Echo had been properly packaged and priced (with a stiffer suspension to get rid of the "windy city blues"), it probably would have gotten rave reviews. But after 7,000 miles of driving the Echo myself, and revisiting it for 1,500 more miles a year later, I have to say...
EDMUNDS WAS RIGHT.
If any of you are interested, the "fix" came in two steps. First I upgraded to 195/60/14 Bridgestone 950 tires I got from Tirerack.com. That took away about 25% of the problem, by reducing flex in the sidewall (susceptibility to wind induced steering inputs), and adding traction (wider, grippier). Braking is also improved, as is wet handling by a substantial amount.
The key change is to go to European valved front struts and rear dampers. Apparently the Echo was "chevroleted" when it came to America, with the suspension being softened. I infer this from my recent switch to Monroe Sensatracs, which are a "loan" from the European division of Tenneco. In other words, there aren't enough Echo's here to make it worthwhile to make shocks, but in Europe, where they are more popular, Tenneco makes a replacement strut and shock, valved to OEM European specs. That's what the tech rep at USA Monroe told me. They are made in Belgium, according to the imprint on the units.
Anyway, parts numbers are Monroe Senstrack 71575 Strut, and 5987 rear shock. Front and back, together, cost me under $200 from shockwarehouse.com - these parts are scarce and had to be drop shipped to me from two separate Monroe warehouses. This price is about half of retail.
I shopped around for installation and paid $259 for installation of all four and wheel alignment.
Now the car is firmer riding, but handles much, much better.
Sorry, won't send to anyone who hasn't already posted here. I got scammed many moons ago giving away some tires, by someone who didn't even own the vehicle they were designed for and just wanted to flip them on Ebay.
Ah, inconsistency thy name is Edmunds.
Sorry I haven't been around in a while. Has been so long, not sure what the last thing I posted was, but anyway.
Still have my 2001 Echo and I am now half owner of a 2003 Echo which is silver in color and an automatic. The other half owner is my roommate. Except for it being newer with the different body styling, silver in color, and automatic, it is my car's twin.
Well, need to get home. Talk to you later.
How many miles on your 2001?
Actually it might have been fun for you to go up and talk with the owner of the Prius. You could tell them how much you enjoy your ECHOes, and they could tell you why they decided to buy (or rent perhaps) the Prius. You might have found a kindred spirit--someone who likes driving a nice reliable car, a Toyota even, and saving gas while doing it.
Why does it matter to you if someone owns a car that costs more than the ECHO, but still gets great fuel economy? Isn't that better than driving a fumes-spewing gas-guzzler? Are you suggesting that everyone in the world should drive an ECHO?
And I thought Mazda owners were parochial about their cars!