Toyota Echo

kneisl1 · April 2006

I bought my next set of tires for the ECHO at Tire Rack. Kumho 758. $29 each. I was going to do it last fall before it snowed, but we didnt get any snow at all so I left the Potenzas on.
I was wondering what experiences others have had with their tires and whether or not you would recommend them. The Potenzas were very good on dry and wet roads. They are the WORST tires i have ever used on snow however. Truly dangerous!

nippononly · April 2006

I really like these Toyos that are on my car - great grip wet or dry (I don't drive in snow) and good handling without tire howl or anything like that.

The model name totally escapes me right now - it is a touring tire, oh how frustrating - it is a 65,000-mile warranted tire. Wait, got it, Spectrum TPT.

How many miles did you/will you get from the Potenzas when they are all done? I have had Potenzas in the past and never been particularly impressed with them, but they were decent for the money I thought. How come you didn't go with the same ones again?

kneisl1 · April 2006

Extremely poor performance in snow. Right now the tires have 32k on them and there looks to be significant tread left. Thw wear bars are a little close on the edges of some of the tire, but they are clearly legal at this point. Ill drive them until the snow flies next season. If it doesnt snow next winter Ill leave them on as long as they are legal.
It simply isnt worth risking having an accident driving in snowy conditions with these tires. I grew up in upstate NY and have fifteen years driving experience in some of the worst winter driving you can imagine. The ECHO with these tires on it is no snowmobile! Im hoping for better with the Kumhos!

nippononly · April 2006

you don't get enough snow to invest in a dedicated set of snows? Perhaps a second set of rims also - a set of four 14" steelies can't cost that much?

The only experience I have ever had on snow with all-season passenger radials is in my old Outback Sport, and those were Potenzas. They were terrible in the snow, little to no traction.

kneisl1 · April 2006

We MIGHT average 10-14 days a year with snow on the roads here in NJ. There were only 2 this year. Four snow tires on rims would be well over $350. Plus I would have to put them on and off, not something I can really do. We dont get enough snow to justify it.
My sons 93 Altima has Dunlop tires that are rated AA for traction. I try to borrow that when the snow flies. They arent snow tires but the car is a tank in 6-8 inches of snow.
The Kumhos are marked M+S so Im hoping they will make my car do as well in snow as the Altima does.

nippononly · April 2006

or....30 dollars. $29.97 to be exact. 405 miles, 9.8 gallons, which by my reckoning works out to almost exactly 41 mpg. Wow. That was a good tank. I think it pushes the running average over 40. This is amazing - all of that is around town. The Echo is something else. :-)

kneisl1 · April 2006

I put 5 gallons even into my ECHO today after driving 210 miles. Cost $14 yipes!

nippononly · April 2006

and gas went up another dime a gallon in between fill-ups even so!

Tonight's fill-up: 10.0 gallons of gas, 409.4 miles. Which is another tank at 41 mpg near as I can tell. Oh, and by the way, those 10.0 gallons of gas cost me $31.30. Man am I glad I have a gas-sipper to drive around in!

In fact, looking back over a few of my posts, the car has officially cracked the 40 mpg barrier over the last 1565 miles, with an exact running average over those miles of about 40.2 mpg.

I am going to stop calculating it so closely now that I have had it a few months and have broken that 40-mpg threshold, but it appears that with the summer gas (and cool temps around here of late, resulting in little A/C use every day but one, when it got used a lot) I can actually achieve the 40 mpg I was hoping to get when I bought this car.

Kinda doubt the Yaris will do quite so well - has the same engine, almost the same performance, but is pulling around 200-250 more pounds of car. I bet that combination of factors will pull the fuel economy down a point or two. Minor diff, but I might as well stick with the mpg champ for a while! :-)

I will have to kill my CCB urge some other way. :-P

kneisl1 · April 2006

If anything you ought to keep on figuring out your mileage now with riseing prices. Why deprive yourself of one of the joys of ownership?
You know how some people decorate their cars with wide chrome wheel, spoilers, and loud exhaust pipes? Im thinking of putting a sign on my car in two foot letters that reads 40 MPG.
I wonder what the idiot who wrote the negitive Edmunds evaluation of the ECHO is paying to fill his tank these days? :P

nippononly · April 2006

I always keep a GENERAL eye on fuel economy, and I will continue to do so, but no more of this calculating it down to the last tenth. I will just maintain a running average to the nearest half mpg or so, going from memory. :-)

Seriously, on the topic of the professional reviews, this car has been overwhelmingly cheered by its owners over the years, according to the research I did before buying. It has to have one of the highest customer satisfaction scores of any model out there. What you see is what you get, with the Echo.

With the pros, I think what happens is they climb in the car and see that center-mount IP (every single review complains about that - same for the Scion cars and even the current Prius when that came out) and decide they don't like the car before the first five minutes are over. So then they look for things they don't like and exaggerate them in the reviews.

But to be fair, this car does not cater to the mainstream - it's super-light in a country where people like heavy-weight - it makes them feel safe I think. It's got a tiny engine in a country where many people have more cc's in their engines than brain cells in their heads. And it's very small, in a market where any car that doesn't comfortably seat five for a non-stop drive from New York to L.A. is UNCONSCIONABLY small! :-P

nippononly · April 2006

I just noticed on the pictures in Edmunds, that the '03 had a tachometer? What's going on there? Was it all '03 and up Echos, or just those with the power package? If it was all the '03 and later Echos, then I am going to have to kick myself a little bit for getting an '02!

I never thought about it until I noticed those pics.

kneisl1 · April 2006

Dont sweat it. You dont need a tach to drive a car.

nippononly · April 2006

of course I don't. But I like having one a whole lot!

In some other pics I have seen since my earlier posting, it looks like all '03s on up had a tach. Oh well. I think a tach might help me get better gas mileage, by reminding me with a visual cue when I am revving the engine a lot. But I can't be bothered to go aftermarket to get one. I will live!

kneisl1 · April 2006

Here is how I shift my ECHO. Lucky for me I live in NJ where its very flat:

Cruise in 5th at 35
Cruise in 4th at 25
1st to 2nd at 15
2nd to 3rd at 20
3rd to 4th at 25
4th to 5th at 35

I only use the car to go to work (6 miles away) and run errands and I dont have to exceed 45 mph. In 25 mph zones I go 25 in 4th. I accelerate as slowly as I can without freaking out the person behind me. I slow down well before I need to apply the brakes. This returns 38-40 mpg in winter (about 4 months of the year) and 40-42 mpg in summer. The best mileage I ever got was going 100 miles and back to Atlantic City at a steady 60 mph. Worked out to 51 mpg. That might be a fluke. Sometime ill do it again!

nippononly · April 2006

Wow, now that's some low shifting!

If I am in regular (not fast) mode, I go
1st to 2nd at 15
2nd to 3rd at 30
3rd to 4th at 40-42
4th to 5th at 50-55

I never cruise in 4th at less than 35, feels like it's lugging below that, and I never cruise in 5th at less than 45 or 50. I will cruise in 3rd at 25 mph. The book gives recommended shift points (for best fuel economy) of 40 mph for 4th gear, and 45 for 5th, so I figure it will be OK to go into those gears at those speeds, but if I am accelerating I wait longer to shift, and also if I am going up a grade.

I must say, if I am in a BIG hurry, the little 1.5 is perfectly happy to hit 40 in 2nd gear, and 60+ mph in 3rd. You can really gun it, especially up steep on-ramps and stuff like that, and I can usually leave folks behind in situations like that, despite the car's small engine. It pulls very strongly at higher revs, but will loll along totally peacefully if you are driving in gas-saver mode/low revs. It is never jerky or rough, at either high revs when it is pulling hard, or just off idle when you are in traffic or on a busy surface street. That is what I love about it. My old car (Acura RSX) had a very jerky and abrupt throttle tip-in, which made for SOME fun in stop-and-go traffic, let me tell you! It also had noticeable hesitation if you just floored it in 2nd or 3rd gear. I have experienced neither in the Echo.

kneisl1 · April 2006

I think you can definately go slower than you are in each gear. However, if it is hilly at all where you are no you wouldnt be able to get away with that. And you must accelerate SLOWLY. Also, if you need to accelerate more quickly, it would be necessary to downshift.
The engine in the ECHO is one of the most amazing I have ever seen. It is torquy at low rpms and makes a huge ammount of power at high rpms. Unlike its Korean counterparts, on top of that it gets astounding fuel mileage. I had my ECHO up to 106 mph once.

nippononly · April 2006

hilly where I live, there are almost no flat areas. I don't want to low-ball the revs so much that it winds up causing long-term damage to the gears or anything. But I will continue to streamline my driving habits in the little car to see if I can improve on the 40 mpg.

And as for the 1.5, it revs much more smoothly and willingly than its Korean counterparts too. At least, the last generation Koreans. I haven't driven the new Accent, and things in that department may have changed. But the old Accent was easily surpassed by the Echo.

kneisl1 · April 2006

That is interesting to me because we are getting almost identical mileage, yet I am driving at substantially lower revs. (and slower) Albeit I am probably stoping and starting more than you.
I think the hills are definately causing you to shift at higher speeds. I feel very comfortable at the speeds I am shifting that Im not abusing the machinery. But in hilly areas you definately need to go higher. I would also assume you wouldnt get as good mileage as on a flat surface. Maybe the ups and downs cancel out.

nippononly · April 2006

it sounds like you do mostly short-trip driving, whereas I do a decent number of miles on the highway, and am almost never in traffic when I do so. So, less cold starts and more steady state driving for me, helps with the mileage, even though I have hilly stuff to do.

I am a devout speed limit follower on the freeway when I am in gas saver mode. That must help. :-)

And part of the freeway near me is still a 55-mph limit.

tsnook · April 2006

Cruise in 5th at 40-45
Cruise in 4th at 35
1st to 2nd at 10
2nd to 3rd at 20
3rd to 4th at 40
4th to 5th at 50

I noticed both of you don't get out of 1st until 15 MPH? I don't usually go that fast in first, it seems a little to whiney. If the car can only go a bit over 30 MPH in 1st gear, wouldn't 15MPH be pretty high RPM for typical use?

Also, I've pushed 1st and 2nd gear to their max and while it might not be the best for the car - or necessary, it sure is a lot of fun. With gas prices where they're at though, I've cut back on sudden starts and stops lately as much as I can stand. I usually get about 35 to 37 MPG on a 10 mile trip at ~60MPH with a few stop lights.

kneisl1 · April 2006

i think you are probably right and I shift out of 1st more like at ten mph. Here in NJ its so flat you can get away with it. The ECHO produces most of its 106 hp at high rpms so yes, thats where the fun is.

nippononly · April 2006

between 1st and 2nd is big enough that if you really want to take off fast, you need to get up to 20+ mph in 1st before shifting, otherwise 2nd gear lugs for a second. But for slow/regular driving, this engine has enough torque that you could go to 2nd from 1st at 10 mph, sure. That would just be a fairly slow, leisurely acceleration, maybe for round-town stuff on 25 mph roads.

There is one spot I go fairly regularly, a rural 65 mph highway with a traffic light that is invariably red, preceding an uphill stretch. When I have to stop at that light, it is the one place where I leave gas-saver mode for a minute and allow myself a bit of fun: the shift to 2nd comes at 20 mph, the shift to 3rd at about 42, and the shift to 4th at 60-65. I always leave the other cars on the road behind when I'm leaving that light. Brand new cars, unloaded V-8 pick-ups, you name it!

I rarely push the car like that - I did buy it to save me gas, something which it does tremendously - usually I drive it with my normal gas-saving driving habits. But that particular light is a bit of a challenge, and I hate holding up a whole line of traffic. They really should make that a freeway-style bypass and eliminate the light.

kneisl1 · May 2006

nippononly · May 2006

1? Really? :-P

kneisl1 · May 2006

wrong forum!

pat · May 2006

If you folks are trying to confuse the host, you've accomplished your purpose.

:sick:

Let's get back to posts that are more easily decipherable. Please. :P

kneisl1 · May 2006

The problem was when I posted "1" I had made a post I intended for another forum. There is no way that I know of to delete such a post, you can only edit away everything but one character.

pat · May 2006

If you have an Edit link, you also have a Delete link in the same area. They both are available for about 30 minutes after you make your post. You can always email me for assistance as well.

With that mystery resolved, we can now move on!! :shades:

nippononly · May 2006

so I couldn't resist posting again on mileage, as it keeps performing like a champ - 395 miles this time, 9.64 gallons (call that 9-2/3 gallons for ease of calculation), another tank at 41 mpg, for a running average of 41 mpg that is now valid for the last 1960 miles of travel.

I have been thinking more about the Yaris manual sedan. For a sticker of $14,5 I could have one with the power package which would include cruise and alloy wheels.

However, I already have a "Yaris" (Echo) with cruise, all I am missing is the power pack I don't care about, the ABS the Yaris still wouldn't have at that price, and alloy wheels, which I happen to really like. And I can't get factory cruise in the Yaris hatch, which leaves me spending about $14,5 on that car including having the dealer install cruise control and alloys from the parts department.

None of which sounds like much of a bargain, at a price of more than what I bought the Echo for (since apart from that the car kinda got worse in the sense that it has more weight being pulled by the same engine).

Which kinda got me thinking - maybe I could just get some 15" Yaris alloys for my Echo? Would they fit? Probably, as most Toyota rims cross over from one application within the same size range. And could I get the rear sway bar from the xA installed in the Echo? Would that require expensive modification, or would it slot right in seeing as the xA uses the same chassis set-up?

These are rhetorical questions of course - obviously I would have to ask the dealer. But at the end of the day, I am betting I could buy all that stuff and still come out cheaper (including the purchase price of my Echo) than buying a brand new Yaris. And my car would look more stylish and handle better.

Of course, if I decided to do that, it wouldn't be right away - I would want to use up some of the tread from my brand new tires first. Maybe in 12-18 months...

kneisl1 · May 2006

I think upgraging the ECHO is an excellent idea. Look around the internet and see what others are doing and what aftermarket is availible. Tire Rack will have all the info on wheels and what will fit the ECHO. (although I recommend sticking with stock: quicker steering and manuverability, possibly better mileage as well) Make a list of what you want to do, price it, and compare to a new vehicle. The ECHo will last a long time and probably get better mileage. Take advantage of it!

kneisl1 · May 2006

I removed the rear and right front seats from my ECHO. If you build a raised platform where the front seat was (to make it level with the area where the rear seat was) you can use the seat backs from the rear seat to make a comphy bed.

nippononly · May 2006

but I was in a hurry. I popped down to L.A. on the weekend and came back today - 380 miles on I-5 at 75 mph with the A/C running most of the time. This includes a trip up from the LA basin, over the 4000-foot pass, and down the Grapevine. Ran the whole thing in about 5 1/2 hours, put in 9.0 gallons, the exact mileage was 376 miles. Which comes up around 42 mpg, I believe. Not too bad.

However, I was helping my friend drive her Accord 4-cylinder automatic back from Texas a few weeks back, and managed 36 mpg in her car which was fully loaded, A/C running constantly (it was like 110 degrees out there in the desert), and averaging 80 mph (bless those Arizona and New Mexico interstates!).

So it is clear that Echo is most in its element for gas savings around town (or on the highway only if you keep the speed down - at 80 the Accord was only running like 2500 rpm, while at 75 the Echo has to be running 3000+, just judging by the sound and based a bit on the Yaris).

I want to try and do another run for my personal record - currently 46 mpg for a single tank. :-)

kneis1: will the seats be STAYING out of the Echo, then?! :-P

kneisl1 · May 2006

What year was this Honda? I was talking to a car salesman recently who owns a V6 Accord. Although he does drive only in Philly, he reports 16 mpg.

kneisl1 · May 2006

The last time I bought gas, (two weeks ago) the ECHO returned a mileage figure of 37. Today the figure was 48 mpg. This gives an average of 42.5 mpg. I get yo-yo figures like this, higher one time and then lower the next, and then higher the time after that. Any explainations?

nippononly · May 2006

a 2004 Accord 4-cylinder automatic. The midsize sedans are all geared to do well on the highway for gas mileage. In town, they are all pretty dismal. If you do a lot of driving in town, THAT'S when you really gain by having a smaller car like the Echo. IMHO, of course.

Now as to your yo-yoing, I would suspect that your driving pattern had changed for the better tank - maybe a lot less cold starts or something?

And then again, various gas pumps will vary the fill by half a gallon or more, so that in a car with a small tank like Echo, normal variance between pumps will cause large swings in perceived gas mileage.

Me, I try to always pump at the same pump to measure it more exactly. I always use the same gas station when I'm in town anyway, because it is by far the most convenient to my house. So it's not a big hassle.

I also try to do at least 400 miles between fill-ups. The more miles you drive per tank, the more precise the mileage measurement.

It's funny, in looking at what I write, I realize I sound like one of those "hypermilers", but I'm really not. I do like to know how well the car is doing on gas though. And I do like to save gas in normal driving.

They say the Yaris is burning up the sales charts. IIRC, Echo sold at the rate of around 50K per year in its first two years. I wonder if Yaris will achieve that pace.

kneisl1 · May 2006

No I fill up every two weeks from the exact same pump in the same station. I almost always drive 200 miles between fillups which happen every two weeks almost without fail. Basically my driving pattern does not change at all. The only thing that changes is the temperature summer to winter. But the temperature was the same over the period of time I averaged 37 mpg one fillup to 48 mpg the next. Its a complete mystery to me. You are right though about the half gallon. It must the the tank is not filled consistantly.
I read some where the Yaris sold 6600 units its first month. Having seen the bloated sedan Im glad I am glad I have my ECHO. Perhaps if things gets really nuts at the pumps will get small cars again. (but I wouldnt count on it) Most likely the next gen Yaris will get the Corollas 1.8 liter engine. The ECHO is a gem not likely to be seen again.

nippononly · May 2006

what a contrast. I do about 400 miles a week in the Echo. Give or take 50 or so. You do about 100 miles per week? I suspect my much greater use of the car is the reason I get about the same mileage as you despite not employing your low shift points and some of your mileage-increasing driving habits. I just have less cold starts and more highway travel in the normal course of things.

It's funny, despite my usual car fever to have the latest greatest thing, I am finding it hard to justify a move to the Yaris (or the Fit, also in contention), just because the Echo has some definite advantages, its fantastically low weight being one. It is also clear that real-world mileage in the Echo is better. And yet my '02 was rated LEV in its model year, I believe, which is all that the Yaris is rated isn't it? So no advancement for the Yaris there either.

I don't like the Yaris sedan. I rather like the hatchback for a number of reasons, interior being one (here the hatch has a definite leg up on the Echo) and looks being another, but it would be so difficult/impossible/hassle to get a hatch with alloys, cruise, and ABS I just don't think it would be worth the trouble.

Meanwhile, I would love to put some 15" alloys with some 185/60s (or even 195/60s?) on my Echo, but I am too frugal to toss away tires that only have about 10K miles on them! That will just have to wait a year or two. I think they will improve the looks a lot, and the handling a little, and I am hoping they wouldn't knock the fuel economy down by more than one point or so.

kneisl1 · May 2006

I think you are probably right about my car getting more cold starts. Also, since it is not driven as much for each cold start, it is much more likely to wear out faster than a car that is driven as yours is. You are really operating for optimum distance between failures. You may be looking a vehicle which will give you 200,000 miles before something really expensive goes. You may have a real challange here being able to stand the car for as long as it is likely to last! A friend at work has a Tercel with 14 years and 300,000k on it. They drive much as you do. The car looks like new! I asked the owner "Your car has given good service wny dont you treat yourself to a new one?" The response? "Im going to drive this car intil it dies!"
I owned a Mercedes 240D for many years. (I only sold it because I cant work on cars anymore) It has the 175-14 tires on it. I drove another one recently and Im thinking "Whats wrong with this thing it drives like a TRUCK!" Well the owner had put the commonly availible 15 inch wheels with like 200 series tires on it. I noticed the same thing when I test drove a Matrix a few years ago when it came out. The steering effort was VERY high (compared to the ECHO) and yes it had outsized wheels and tires on it. So I think dont feel too bad about not having wide tires on the ECHO. Maybe a tire upgrade in the same size?

nippononly · May 2006

The thing I want to fix is the visual aspect - the stock wheels are too small for the wheel wells, not to mention the height of the roof.

The Toyo Spectrums are a decent tire for my needs - good wet traction, not a ton of noise, and enough handling for the abilities of the car. I would probably just buy a new set in the larger size.

As much as my brain says "drive it 'til it dies", I never manage to do that - my eye wanders WAY too much. I AM wondering how far this clutch will go before it needs replacement. I would probably just sell it rather than pay to replace the clutch, as long as it was past 100K miles. But then, some people manage to get to 150K or well beyond before they need a new clutch, so that may not be an issue for me at all.

Just took a peek at a fully loaded Yaris S (stick) with the power package including alloys, which also puts in power windows locks and mirrors, cruise, and ABS. With the optional fog lamps as well (and a stupid little spoiler) it was just under $16K. The Yaris may not be a major advancement from the Echo in some ways, but dollar for dollar I believe it is a better value (similarly equipped) than the Echo was five years ago. They have managed to squeeze in more content than back then, while the price in adjusted dollars is just about the same.

kneisl1 · May 2006

I got 250,000 miles out of the clutch (both parts) on my 74 Beetle. I got 153,000 miles on the clutch on my 79 240D. The Beetle was used almost exclusively in a long distance commute. The Mercedes was strictly around town. I worry a little about the ECHO clutch because the engine does not have the low down torque of the two previous cars. You have to rev the engine a little more in first to get it to move, especially on a hill.
If I needed another car right now I would go with a used ECHO. I saw a 2002 with 27k on it for $7995. Unfortunately by the time mine wears out all the ECHOs will be history also. They arent making any new ones. Maybe not though a lot of older people who dont drive much own them. If I keep putting 6k a year fron now on, after 18 years it will only have 90k on it! What would REALLY be nice is to get a Canadian hatchback ECHO and drive it under my American sedans registration. Just say "Hey this is my ECHO I bought here in 2000". I wonder would they catch on?
As long as Im likely to have my ECHO I worry about getting parts for it in 20 years. They didnt sell a lot here. (although there are lots of Canadian ECHOs) I just put a muffler on my daughters Camry (my mothers old car). Get this. The nearest Toyota dealer told me "We cant find a Toyota muffer for a 92 Camry in the US!". I called another dealer father away and they got one for me. I didnt buy my ECHO from them and Im glad I didnt!

nippononly · May 2006

I was messing around tonight and figured I would see what a top speed run would produce, and took the car up to 100 mph. It pulled strongly the whole way! I would have taken it to the top, but I saw a highway patrol sitting in a wayside further up, so I hit the brakes. :shades:

This is something I used to routinely do with every car I bought, but had not yet done with the Echo, because it is kind of counter-intuitive to the reason I bought the car. :-P

The engine is turning pretty fast once you hit 100, but it is still pulling willingly, which is more than I can say for my Subaru I had a few years back, which had another 30 horses but was pretty much all done at 100. I believe the Subaru's actual top speed was like 106, but it took forever to increase the last 15 mph over 90.

What is the Echo's official top speed anyway? I was kinda surprised (given the car's intended purpose) that it was still so willing to go faster at 100 mph. Maybe the rev limiter was about to kick in, I dunno.

kneisl1 · May 2006

On the NJTPK once there was a Saab doing 65 in the left lane (3 lanes) He was blocking traffic and when someone tried to pass him on the right, he would speed up so they couldnt pass. I observed about six people try to pass him. He would go over 80 when they did this, then drop back down to 65. In all the jostling that took place, I found myself in a position to pass him. So I literally put my foot on the floor and left it there. I was going so fast I didnt DARE take my eyes off the road (and him) to look at the speedo. I think he was a little stunned that a tiny car would attempt to go so fast, and after a determined effort to keep up with me, I got by him. When I was in the clear I looked at the speedo and it said 106. Ive heard that there IS a limiter and the cars tops speed is in fact 106. It didnt feel to bad at that speed really.
This one is a little long. Another time I was coming home from work at one in the morning. I was all alone at a light. When it turned green I went ahead and began a slow shift into the left hand lane so I could make a left up ahead. I was on a bridge, with two lanes each way. Out of nowhere these two monster SUVs racing each other came up behind me. I was basically in the middle of the two lanes when one passed me on the right and one on the left! So we have three vehicles in two lanes! These guys were going like 90! The fenders of the SUV on the right were hitting the side of the bridge and throwing up showers of sparks! I thought "Its all over!" Somehow they didnt squash me like a bug. One ended up in front of me and the other behind me. The guy behind almost flipped over. I made my left turn into a development and headed for home. Both SUVs turned around and tried to chase me down! Holy crap! Remembering the 106 mph incident on the Turnpike, I floored the ECHO. I think I went like 40 in first and 60 in second. The engine responded like a Formula One race engine! (or at least, I imagine thats what one sounds like) Since we were in a development it was sprint to 60, slam on the brakes, turn a corner, repeat over and over. The SUVs fell farther and farther behind. They could not accelerate and brake and corner as fast as the ECHO! I thought "Head for the police station!" until I remembered no one was there at night. I didnt want to go home and reveal to the idiots where I lived. But I lost them so completely thats what I did. I came out on my street about half a mile from my house with no sign of them. About half way there, they spotted me! I decided to make a break for the house, run inside and call 911. I got in the door just as they pulled up. Im thinking "Im OK but theyre going to trash my car." I dialed 911 as they ran up to the house looking for a way in! Then I got my shotgun and waited in the dark. (wife is hysterical) If they enter my house, they are both going to be VERY sorry! Finally they give up, get in their vehicles and drive away. Cops come, do nothing to catch them, give me the third degree trying to find out what happened. Cops leave. Wife gives me hell!
So yes the ECHO will go 106 all wound out. Try going 80 in second some time also!

nippononly · May 2006

man! That is a very scary incident! Where do you live, LOL!

I never had any doubt that the Echo could out-maneuver a large SUV, that's for sure. And I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the Echo's top speed was just beyond the speed I got to last night. 106 mph is pretty good for a commuter car, and I believe the Corolla's top speed is the same then.

As for stability at 100 mph, I think this car's high speed stability in general is higher than your seat of the pants tells you. The very soft suspension gives a false impression that the car is on the edge, when it isn't really. If I do reach the point of buying new tires for this car rather than selling it, I am definitely going to buy some better shocks and a rear sway for it as well (along with 15" rims and slightly wider tires). With its weight, it could be great if only the suspension had been designed for anything in the way of sportiness.

In the meantime, I do appreciate the benefits the design of the suspension DOES provide - a very smooth ride over bad pavement and excellent pothole absorption.

kneisl1 · May 2006

I live in a very normal type of place. Road Rage is pretty much universal.
I read somewhere that the Yaris outpointed the new Pontiac 2 seater BMW clone on the skidpad. (I forget its name) I also recall the ECHO itself did pretty good in this regard. Certainly I have no complaints with its handling! Complaints about the "wallowing" ECHO dont seem to have much in the way of substance. Its just another example of the viseral reaction some people have to an economy car.

pat · May 2006

Yikes!!

Why did they go after you? And what do you mean, no one is at the police station at night??

kneisl1 · May 2006

Probably taking out their frustrations in life. I stopped for a yellow light once by mistake. The guy behind me went nuts beeping the horn and pounding on the steering wheel. (he wanted to get through the light) Some people are seriously nuts!
We dont have a post office in our town you have to go to the town next door for that. The police have an office in the basement of the town hall, but the main police station is also in the next town. When my wifes Accord got stolen my neighbor saw it happen. He called the police station but got a recording saying theres no one there after 8. I remembered that.

nippononly · May 2006

this time: 368 miles, 9.29 gallons on fill-up, works out to 39.61 (call it 39.5) mpg on this tank. Lately the A/C has been getting a work-out, and I was doing less driving this time (took me longer to need a fill-up), so I guess it's no huge shock. Still decent though. Most of the early Yaris owners seem to be posting lower mileage than that. :-)

kneisl1 · May 2006

I understand there is a one liter version of the ECHO engine for sale in other parts of the world. How nice would it be to have that? I wonder how much difference in mpg it would make.

nippononly · May 2006

I bet I could get 50 mpg with an Echo 1.0, but I am not sure I would have bought that version. The magic of the Echo 1.5 is its extremely tractable engine - wanna do 100 mph? No problem. Wanna drive in stop and go traffic, with the engine turning at 1200 rpm? No problem. It will pull from almost any rpm. Rev it and you can go quite fast, or baby it and the mileage will shoot up.

I don't think a 1.0 would be very fast in this car - it would probably make around 70 hp, which would give it a worse power to weight ratio than any car I have ever owned. You could still beat VW vans to 60 mph though! :-P

But hey, with the 1.5 it already has, I can fairly easily get 40 mpg. That's enough for me for now. What I WANT is a 105 hp engine with the fuel economy of that 1.0! I remain convinced that the technology exists (without resorting to hybridization), had Toyota just devoted its time and resources to that goal, but of course it has been busy boosting power and weight instead of fuel economy. So the new Echo (Yaris) puts on 200 pounds, gains 5 hp, and side-steps (actually decreases ever so slightly) in fuel economy.

kneisl1 · May 2006

The ECHO engine is one of the most amazing car engines out there. (although I use only the low down torque side of it...mostly) When you couple that with its spacious, easy to enter interior and high above the road seating position, it truely astounds. What a pity it didnt sell well enough here in the US. It really is a scary commentary on the misplaced values of American drivers that it didn't. It really is just the car we need right now. Toyota is well on the way to Civic ing it. There is a new Yaris sedan down the street. Cripes its almost the size of a Corolla!
In my style of driving I wouldnt miss the 1.5 liter engine at all if I had a 1.0. Thank goodness i work second shift and dont have to contend with rush hour traffic.

Toyota Echo

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