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I must say that what you wrote is just your opinion. I have owned many vehicles in my 55 years of driving, American, Japanese, Italian, and German made. I don't feel like "top dog" and I didn't buy them for "status" but rather because I wanted to, after all it was my money! My last 4 autos have been Mercedes Benz and all have performed as well as any of my past vehicles! None of the Mercedes have been "flakey"!
The only out of pocket expenses that I have incurred has been for a new set of tires/alignment and a rear window regulator. Other than that, it's been smooth sailing during the 62 months that I've owned my car.
Mark
I went with Toyota for the first time 2 years ago and bought a Matrix. It has been flawless so far with 30K miles, but will it last as long as the 96 E320? Time will tell. Then again, my 01 E320 only has 49K on it so far, but it too has been flawless. I definitely expect it to get to 100K without any problems. Time will tell.
On average, I will agree that Honda/Toyota/Mazda put out high reliablity autos and that MB/BMW/Audi are a step (or 2) behind. I've owned Toyota and Mazda and test driven a couple of Hondas. After getting out of one of those and then getting into a MB/BMW/Audi is like stepping into another world in terms of ride quality, handling, quietness, etc. No one makes a "perfect" car so you have to decide which issues are most important to you and your psyche..
About a yr ago bought a 2001 E320 Sport w/ 14K miles. Car was 2 1/2 yrs old so still had 1 1/2 OEM warrenty plus 1 yr Starmark. Bought SM extended warranty for 3 more yrs for $1400. Total 5 1/2 yrs warranty w/ no deduct.
How can you beat that? An a/c or other serious repair will pay for the warranty plus it is good for 100K miles. Better than new.
IMPORTANT!!!! Extended SM warranty can only be purchased at the time that the car is bought from the dealer---not later.
Wheels/tires. Have the Sport pkg. w/includes 17" 235/45/17 tires ( Michelin HGT4 Pilots). That is the way to go for better handling w/ min ride degradation. Suspension is the same as reg E320.
Only expect about 30K mi from these tires.
Long story short. Saved about 40% on purchase & still got 100K warranty.
PS Dealer put on new Michelins n/c. Continentals not very good.
But even with a glitch here or there, I would continue buying Mercedes because I like the look, handling, etc. As a Mercedes ages, they seem to get classier and distinctive looking. For instance, a '90 LS400 Lexus is ok but a 1990 Mercedes 560 SEL is sharp looking if taken care of. That true German engineering/design is hard to beat.
Mark
"On average, I will agree that Honda/Toyota/Mazda put out high reliablity autos"
I should have emphasized the "On average" and stated that any manufacturer can and does produce cars at BOTH ends of the reliability spectrum. Maybe the Buicks I owned were both at the bad end and my Benzes have been at the good end. My experiences with other manufacturers has been more "average" in that I've had some really good examples and some not so good examples, but never two in a row as bad as the Buicks.
And I agree with you on the long term looks of the Benzes. Whenever I see an older one coming down the road, I think, gawd, they look so good for being 15-20 years old. No other marque holds up as well as MB. The only problem with keeping a Benz into the 300-400K mile range is the question of how much time do you want to spend taking it to the garage and how much money are you willing to pay in maintenance? In my case, I try to take at one or two long range trips every year around some part of the US and I could not in good conscience drive any car with 250K miles on it up to 2500 miles from home and back. I just don't want to get stranded in a strange town and have to spend up to a couple thousand dollars with some mechanic I don't know.
The bigger issue today is, can we expect the current models to last as well as the ones from the 80's and early 90's? I suspect 20 years from now we will see as many of the 80's models on the roads as the early 20's models. But that's just my opinion.. All 2 cents worth..
And where are the stats to support that?
The JDPowers 3 year study says just the opposite. Many marques are better.
Sure you can put the price of the car into it all over again and guess what, you have a brand new 20 year old car. How dumb can that be in today's changing technology environment.
There isn't a Mercedes available today with an AWD system that is good and capable as the one in the Infiniti G35x or new Acura RL.
So spending money on a museum piece from Germany doesn't make any sense to me. Just like 8 track tape. Nice, sturdy but technically irrelevant. Where is 8 track in an MP3 world, eh?
Just my opinion as pointed out.
In my car club, it's nice to see the effort and expense members have put into their old cars from every domestic to European cars. Some of the older 220SL's from the early 70's are super sharp looking without a lot of gadgetry. Mercedes SL's didn't have power seats or tilt steering wheel until 1990.
Mark
1) I think it would be informative for you if you actually read the JDPowers site about how they do their studies. They ask questions of several hundred thousand vehicle owners. The answers are reported as problems per hundred cars. If Mercedes, or any other car company, was being unfairly rated, their lawyers would have JDP in court in a blink. They aren't, so the results you see are very indicative of likely experience over a large number of owners. So, IMHO, your individual experience or even your friend's Honda is statistically insignificant.
2) I missed that problem with engines seizing in the "majority" of the Toyota and Lexus vehicles from 1997 to 2001. Perhaps you can provide a link to let us read up on it?
3) Probably the best indicator of the reliability difference is Toyota's and Lexus's market share growth, quarter over quarter, year over year. If people didn't love em they wouldn't keep buying them. And the vast majority of Toyotas are made right here in North America, imagine that. The red hot Lexus RX330 is made in Canada too!
Merry Christmas
No way do the germans or any other european brands build electrical systems as good or sound & stable in cars or other products like the Japanese do, I'll put money on that anyday of week on that. When they do finally do I'll be the first to note that. The E class made the least reliable list go figure.
http://www.embedded.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=18401442
We pay more & expect more out of a Mercedes. So these JD Power Report are well intention, but they do not give you the full story. If you look at some of these letters coming in,it will tell you that Mercedes owners are very picky, from car wax the car wax they use etc. The styling and handling cannot be match by any Honda or Lexus, this does not come into play in JD Power.
It is true that my Mercedes also have their fair share of problems but the dealer managed to correct all problems.
The same cannot be said about our Odyssey.
Apparently, even the new 2005 Odyssey also has squeaking side doors, wind noise from bad window seals (check out odyclub.com) which keeps me away from trading in our 2002 for now. I hope the 2005 model will have a more durable transmission, our 2002 Odyssey went through a transmission recall and it never shifted the same after the service.
I always drive the E for long distance as I can't stand the squeaks and rattles in the Honda. I wanted to like the Honda as they're so much cheaper than Mercedes, but I can't due to their many problems and inferior (as expected) driving dynamics.
Also, the newer V-6 & V8 have 100k plug change intervals.
I know that Terk makes a very small magnetic antenna that might integrate with the stock system.
Aftermarket phones are okay, but I'm not sure about integrating one into the Comand system.
And where are the stats to support that? "
My point here is not specifically with "reliability", but rather with durability, particularly the body integrity as noted in the last paragraph of the report linked in a prior response from "sapporo". MB's built 20 and 30 years ago had little for electronics and as a result have been durable and reliable. I personally am not convinced that the MB's built since the late 90's will last nearly as long as the older ones, and I think I made such a statement in my earlier post. Most of the old MB's still look good because their sheet metal and paint have held up well. In my area, New England, it is rare to see any Japanese car that looks good after 20 years. But there are many MB's and BMW's that do look good after that length of time. From my own experience I can tell you that the paint on my 1988 Mazda after 9 years did not hold up nearly as well as the paint on my 1996 E320 after 8 years. No contest..! On the other hand, the Mazda cost me next to nothing, in repairs, to own for 99K miles and 9 years. The E320 did cost me $3K at 115K miles. And that's when I decided to start thinking about selling it.
And I think it's foolish to spend as much in repairs as the original cost of the car, which I also suggested in my prior message. Unless of course it's a Buggatti.. And worth 100 times more than it's orginal purchase price..
"There isn't a Mercedes available today with an AWD system that is good and capable as the one in the Infiniti G35x or new Acura RL."
I would disagree with you on this. The M-class has a superlative AWD system. And I think it is now being used on a few other models as well.
<soapbox on>
I personally liked autos a lot more 30-40 years ago when I could do most of the work on them myself. Now, the home mechanic doesn't stand a chance of doing anything other than changing the plugs or the tires due to the plethora of electronic controls on virtually every functional element of the car. That's one reason I don't have or want a NAV system with all the problems that it seems to cause. The other is I belong to AAA and prefer to do my navigation by paper map and not be watching an electronic screen while driving. For the same reason I do not use a cell phone while driving; I would rather pay attention to the roadway and the other drivers, since most of them AREN'T paying attention.
<soapbox off>
Ron
rgatling@digitelsales.com
Ron
rgatling@digitelsales.com
Don Pool MB Specialist is at 6917 Lee Highway in Arlington. That address is essentially the intersection of route 66 and route 29. It must be inches from being in Falls Church. If you try him please post if you liked his work and prices. My MB is still under warranty with HBL and thus far I have had no reason not to continue with them. I pass the Don Pool business often and he has a multitude of MB's he is working on. Business looks to be very squared away. I am interested in knowing if people appreciate his work. Regards
I would guess one could shop a great deal there, especially this time of year.
I'm glad to hear they are coming; I meant to ask my salesman about them last week when I was at the dealership.
The Hondas definitely are not what I consider of high quality.
One impression I get, and this is not based on scientific evidence, but is that the overall quality of all cars has gone up in the past 10-15 years. So when the ratings come out, sure it would be better all things equal to have the best quality vehicle, but I think the ones down the list really aren't that bad. I guess it all depends on what someone wants. If you want the most trouble free car, I'm sure MB is not the one to go for.
I'm looking for another car. I'm leaning away from MB just because I don't want another E (want something new), can't afford an S, but might consider the CLS.
Glad some of you got a good one and I hope you all continue to get good ones. This was just to much money for such low quality.
They must be taking you for a ride brushing you off saying things like this can never be fixed, etc.
My E55 with much stiffer suspension is perfect, no squeaks, no rattles, no wind noise.
I wonder if your car had been in an accident before you took delivery?
Anyway, good luck you should write to MB USA.
That is what I was thinking too. Sounds like a Ford I had once.
M
I used to contribute occasionally to this forum but have taken a year or so off. I have to say I have a love/hate relationship with my car. I have a 2001 E320 4matic that I picked up brand new in March of 01. When the vehicle is working it is the most amazing car I can imagine owning. Ride is impeccible, good power, great features, size is perfect and it looks amazing. However, the car has been far from trouble free. Here is a summary off the top of my head of the issues I've had (there are probably more). They are in no particular order:
- 3 times for a transmission leak. Claimed to be 3 different problems (xfer case, differential, transmission). This got me a 1 yr/100K mile extended warranty comp'd by the dealer.
- 3 times for two different fan speed regulators that disabled the climate control system. First time they didn't fix it and, instead lectured me on my understanding of the "automatic" cc system.
- failed drivers headrest motor
- broken cover on sun-visor mirror
- broken wood trim on dash, actually split in 2 due to the cold. This took two trips as they "ordered the wrong part" the first time.
- rubber on rubber "groan" from steering column. "fixed" but back again...living with it as it only happens in the warm weather.
- ABS/BAS failure, replaced a shorted out module.
- Fog light out, turned out to be corroded connector and wiring harness
- failed fuel gauge.
- rattling sunroof shade
Then, in mid December, I put the car in for mount/balance 4 snows, 4 wheel alignment and a state inspection. got the car back 450 bucks poorer and 4 days later (and that's with the warranty).
- worn control arm - part not in stock add a day.
- failed coolant hose - dumped in parking lot when bringing in to do control arm work. attributed to cold weather. part not in stock, add another day.
- wobble in belt pulley system bound by tech - had part!
Loaners, when I can beg one out of them, have ranged from a Lesabre that smelled like an ash tray, to a corolla (also ash tray like), to an ML to a brand new C240 4matic w/dealer logos on the side. There have been other forgettable ones.
Cars are mechanical beasts and will have problems. It is my opinion, however, that the number of problems I've had with this car is a little higher than one might expect. My biggest issues are, however, the dealers inablity to correctly service the vehicle and the fact that they NEVER have parts in stock. I also hate how they pretend to have never seen issues before when, by following forums such as this, you can see that they are actually common.
Mercedes could read this and contact me and say, BigRob, we'll pick up all future costs on this vehicle, you'll never have to spend a dime. That doesn't solve the fact that it's a 60 mile round trip + multiple days without my car every time I have an issue.
Love/Hate. I come back from a service appointment and I'm enraged. Then the car slowly works its way back into my heart again to where I don't know how I can get rid of it. Man, this thing is a piece of work.
Regards,
BigRob.
Having said all of that, I doubt that it would have done any good anyway. I have periodically ranted about the attitude of upper management at MB-USA, whereby they believe that they know better than their customers what those customers need, want and desire. I find that just a tad arrogant. The best story surrounds the launch of the SLK; MB-USA wanted to make damn sure that it went off well, so they did all of their customer research and came to the conclusion (among many others) that the car should only be offered with an automatic transmission only (as usual).
At that point I was doing the alternating month thing, working one month in Montvale, and the next in Stuttgart, so I had a chance to drive a pre-production SLK with a 5-Speed transmission while in Germany. I liked it. When I got back to Montvale, I was looking over one of the cars that was to be used for the PR launch (more on that in a moment), and happened to comment, out loud to no one in particular, "Gee, it's too bad us Americans can't get a 5-Speed." I didn't realize the VP of the CAC was standing behind me apparently quite smug in his belief that I would be drooling all over "his" car. When he heard my comment he got quite angry and started shouting at me, "What the hell are you talking about? We spent millions to determine what options to offer on this car (I suspect that was an exaggeration, then again, maybe not), and the fact of the matter is, Mercedes customers don't drive sticks. Period. Besides, only an idiot would want to drive a car like this with a manual."
Being a bit of a hot head myself, my response was kind of predictable, "Well then I guess I'm and idiot." He gave me a very nasty look and stormed off. I found out later that he had put the word out that my contract was not to be renewed at the end of the year. Oh well.
Anyway, the designated Saturday for the big PR event for the SLK was a couple of days after our little exchange. The intention was to hold it outside so that there would be lots of photo-ops of the old SLs, their owners, and of course their big smiles when being shown the new SLK. Best laid plans of mice and men and all of that, it rained, big time. So, since all of the participants (both people and cars) were already there (some from great distance), the event was held inside the shop at the CAC. My in-town "office" was a loft above the main shop floor (where I got to see lots of cool stuff) and that gave me a birds-eye view of the proceedings. Long story short, almost every one of the old SLs were equipped with three pedals (all of them?), and to put it mildly, the owner group was less than enthused about the new automatic only SLK. During the Q&A, the previously mentioned VP was asked repeatedly about the "research" that led MB to think that the manual transmission was not desirable in the SLK. Sitting in my perch watching him grow more and more uncomfortable, all I could do was bite my lower lip to keep from laughing out loud. I lasted just the remainder of the year there, rumor has it that he didn't last much longer. Oh, and the SLK is now offered with a manual transmission. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
I recently needed to replace my wife's car (A totaled x-type). Lots of options, but she chose the e500 4matic. The worst thing about it was we already had one - no fun without some diversity. (Although I did try to talk her into a used Porsche. No deal.)
Her e500 was cheaper than two G35x's, which I would have needed by the time she has the mileage I have. If you can afford the price and the boredom of driving a car for 250k+ miles, the german taxi is actually an inexpensive car.
From the reviews I've read about the SLK there must be a different team in place because not only does it have a manual trans, its a very good one at that. Even the fickle as hell British press loves the new SLK and its manual transmission. Now if MBUSA could just hit similar home runs with the products devoted to this market like the new ML and soon-to-be R-Class, they'd be on to something. Pre-1990 this arrogance tolerable and even arguably great for the company because they produced cars that matched the arrogance, unrivaled by anyone. There is no way they'll make it with such arrogance now because they cars don't and won't support it. Even Ferrari has had to come down off its perch and actually compete with former market losers like Aston-Martin and Lamborghini.
It seems Mercedes in general has learned their lessons about incorrect specifications and shoddy build quality if the new SLK and CLS are any indication. I still don't think that MBUSA and VWoA espcially has the full attention of their top management back in Germany
M
I have a few other juicy ones that I've posted here from time to time. My stint with Mercedes was both a lot of fun and very frustrating. I am a systems developer by trade and a car nut by hobby, as such I was really into the car aspect of working at MBNA (as they called it back then, prior to a little spat with the bank of the same initials). The wierd thing (for me anyway) was the number of people who worked there who could care less about cars in general and Mercedes-Benz cars in particular, they were only there for the job. Grrrr! I am happy to report that the folks I worked with in Stuttgart were quite the opposite, they LOVED their cars.
Best Regards,
Shipo