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Comments
-Number of cold starts
-Ambient temp at start
-Length of time the engine runs each time between starts
-Miles
-Months
-Oil quality, as measured [rather primitively, actually] by how much electrical resistance exists in the oil and how it changes over time
And, for all we know, the number of full moons in any given service period.
All of this is pondered by the computer, and a mileage target is calculated as the miles accumulate and conditions change. IN GENERAL, this will result in the FSS chasing you in somewhere between 9,000 and 15,000 miles...depending...
How many miles did you get on your front brake pads before the indicator came on?
Also try your local junk yard. If you call them up, most of the time they can give you an answer over the phone. Most junk yards are now located miles away from the city.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
Best Regards,
Shipo
Think of the reputation of cars that don't last 5 years, Yugo, early Hyundais, Renaults.
You think MB would tarnish it's reputation so that dealerships and independent repair shops can make the money? I think not.
On the other hand, think of all those money Jiffy Lubes and others are making now that they have succeeded in brainwashing you into changing your oil every 3K miles.
I'm running about 10K between FSS's for my cars. Short trips only.
For an admittedly unscientific testimonial, I've had 7 Renaults over the years, some of which were as much as 25 years old, and sold others after 10 years and 160,000 trouble-free km. None of these cars were problematic in any way. My dad drove a 2.2 Fuego to 250,000 km over 14 years before selling it to its second (happy) owner. Any Renault owner with at least half a brain would be able to get 250,000 km out of any one of their models, past or present.
Oh, and the Renault Laguna is safer than a W203 C-Class (EuroNCAP.com), a little icing on the cake.
Although I can't speak for the other car brands you mention, I doubt that they disintegrate at exactly 5 years either. Even my dad's Russian Lada Niva 1.7 4x4 looks like new after 5 years and 80,000 km.
Mercedes-Benz could easily dispel the rampant speculation on its FSS by providing the empirical data that support its variable-but-long service schedule. While in principle the FSS undoubtedly works, subject to the intelligence of its programming, the arbritrary "line" that triggers an FSS reminder is a tolerance for somewhat diminshed lubrication quality. That is, the oil's already gone "off" peak efficiency when the FSS triggers. It is therefore not unreasonable to change the oil as often as 8000-10000 km (5000-6000 miles), especially for drivers that apply heavy-duty demands to their cars' engines.
Unless you dump your used oil into a sewer or a neighbour's back yard, exactly how is a more frequent oil change an unnecessary burden upon the environment? I've been recycling my used oil since 1978, how about you? And if the re-refining process creates too large of an ecological footprint for you to stomach, maybe you should not drive a car at all, but especially not one with a fuel-inefficient V6.
Cheers,
Mike T.
Extended oil change intervals, using conventional oils [much less synthetics] have been routine in Europe for years. In the US, we have all been trained to dump the oil every 3000 miles, mostly for technical reasons that haven't applied to either modern engines nor motor oil for at least a decade. Oh, well....believe whatever works for you.
I trust MB [and BMW and Audi and Toyota and....] to know what is best for their engine designs. They all go with extended intervals now, and these are not companies that are looking to acquire a reputation for building throwaway cars.
If your religion requires you to ignore the engineering, I won't argue - it's a big waste of time to try to change minds on this topic.
What's that dang East German brand that everyone makes fun about?
Best Regards,
Shipo
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
So if the guys at mbworld.org all jump off a bridge I should too?
Given that your rhetoric contains no factual evidence that would indicate any problem with keeping your oil in the engine until the computer tells you to change it, my guess is that your information on why oil should be changed is either about as scientific as consulting tea leaves or woefully out of date.
Consider the following points:
Back when I started turning wrenches on cars, there was no such a thing as unleaded gas that was commercially available. Back then, oil was your basic Dino Juice and it was changed every 3,000 miles or so. At the time there were several experiments with synthetic oil, and they were basically failures. Why? Synthetic oil was proven (and has been re-proven many times since then) to be a very poor lead scavenger. The result was a soft gray buildup on the piston rings, not surprisingly, said gray buildup was primarily made up of lead. Given that we cannot even buy leaded gasoline these days, this leaves the door wide open for synthetic oil.
Modern engines that carry the LEV or the ULEV certification produce just a fraction of the of the combustion byproducts of engines from just 5 years ago (Mercedes-Benz or otherwise). Given that one of the primary jobs of engine oil is to keep said byproducts in suspension until they can be drained away at the next oil change, a massive reduction in those contaminates will allow for a longer oil change interval.
Modern engine oil, specifically Synthetic Oil, have far greater abilities to keep contaminates in suspension with no appreciable loss in lubricity. Couple that with the ability of Synthetic oil to shrug off the effects of water (older Dino Juice used to react with water and form acids) without any loss in lubricity, and you have an oil that can withstand longer oil change intervals without ANY additional engine wear.
Modern engine oil (once again, specifically Synthetic) is far more stable in extreme environments (high engine temps, high RPMs and extreme cold) than conventional oil, as such, it breaks down at a FAR slower rate when compared to the old stuff. Once again, this will reduce the necessity of frequent oil changes.
Many car manufacturers that recommend Synthetic oil and extended oil changes have seen fit to enlarge the capacity of the sump by as much as 100% over the capacity of engines from other manufacturers of similar size. Case in point, my 328i has an oil capacity of almost 8 quarts, I have seen similar sized six cylinder engines with a capacity of only 4 quarts. Twice the oil means twice the capacity to hold contaminates in suspension, lower oil temperatures (spends more time in the sump cooling), fewer passes through the oil galleries getting the #$*^%~!@ beat out of it, and a much greater margin of error for low oil. Yet again, longer oil change intervals are the result.
If all of this is not enough, when I was working for MBUSA in the mid 1990s, MB was testing a number of cars with Synthetic oil. A few of those cars only had the oil changed when the chemical analysis of the oil indicated that it was starting to degrade below acceptable minimums. Do you know what the average mileage was between changes on those cars turned out to be? Glad you asked, 25,000 miles.
FWIW, I have been contributing here at Town Hall for over 3 years, during that time, I have heard MANY folks preach frequent oil changes. So far, NOT ONE of said preachers has presented so much as a single shred of scientific evidence that indicates that changing out the Synthetic oil on a modern LEV engine (or ULEV for that matter) will amount to even 1 extra mile of engine life. If you can, I am all ears. If you cannot, I suggest that you do your own research into the issue, trying your best to ignore the bilge that most folks spout about this issue.
Best Regards,
Shipo
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
In that case, why would the FSS in a modern, cleaner Benz say the oil should be changed at as little as 8000 miles? Is Mercedes-Benz being that wasteful of perfectly good oil? Should everyone should wait until their FSS indicator goes on and then double their mileage on the same oil?
I would therefore be interested to see the algorhythm that M-B uses in its FSS. Until we know how it makes its decisions, and the research results that support the sensor calibrations and decision matrix for the FSS, debates such as this are inevitable.
That said, what Shipo wrote was very good - particularly the fact that cleaner cars contaminate the oil less and synthetics are much more resistant than refined mineral oils. Another variable, however, is the cleanliness of the fuel, something that Canada is not notorious for. Our fuel has huge levels of Sulphur in it, which makes even the cleanest engine create nasty combustion by-products which contaminate the oil. I assume that the FSS proxy measurement for oil contamination/viscosity breakdown is capable of accommodating this variable. Which is, once again, why I'd like to know A LOT more about FSS before I trust it implicitly.
About the Renault situation, they are not in North America for no other reason than the French are the world's worst marketing strategists. Incompetence would be too kind a description for these guys.
I've owned a total of four examples of the Renault 5 (Le Car to the US) over the past 24 years, and each of them was a perfectly fine vehicle. They demand some care and attention - for example, they are not like a Toyota, where the hood can rust shut and it won't matter because the fluid levels never vary. In a Renault, the fluids do need to be checked occasionally. Many of them died prematurely because of ignorant owners who thought that basic meaitenance was a luxury they couldn't afford. People who buy inexpensive cars often subject them to the most hideous abuse like that.
As Shipo said, show your factual evidence.
Bubba
"...My friends all drive Porsches, I must make AMENDS..." J. Joplin
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
Just for your information, all Germans do. Ecological reasoning does not hit home among most americans (can you say "Bush"?), I know, but it is respected in other parts of the world. Cars in the German market normally do require oil changes every 8k to 12k miles, no more. All that even though engines are operated in more demanding environmental situations.
I would bet that it had a motor or trany change.
What is the scientific base for this statement? A gutt feeling? Argh...
Tarik
"My daughter would like to break the lease on her 1999 C-280, and lease a 2002 C-32 AMG this coming spring. Is there anyone in this forum who happens to own one, and if so, are they as fast and reliable as the reviewers say they are?"
Since (thus far) I haven't received any response, I can only assume that no one in this forum owns a C-32 AMG, and therefore can answer my question.
Is there another Mercedes forum where I might be able to get an answer? Thank you.
As far as reliablity I don't see how any auto reviewer would be qualified to comment unless the car in their possesion was real pooch aka Edmunds recent review of the Jag X-type. Given that this forum offers as good as any insight to expected reliablity.
It sounds like you want confirmation that it is as fast as the reviewers state. Why are you interested in finding that out? There is little doubt that the car is very fast.
Miki
...which would appear to indicate that the superior lubricating properties of newer oil would prevent the increased metal-to-metal contact that characterises the break-in process. So after break-in, may one then conclude that early (pre-FSS) oil changes will indeed be beneficial to engine longevity?
;-)
Mike T.
Mike -- One may conclude anything, particularly if they have all the answers.
Happy Holidays Everybuddy.
Miki
Thank you for the compliment. I'm glad that you understood my posting, too.
;-)
Merry Xmas, etc to all!
Mike T.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
No, you do not get a CD player as standard (what a rip off on a 50k + car huh?) Yes, the dealers offer a 6 CD changer as a whopping $1,200.00 option(no way!) But I did get the COMMAND system with the Nav. system. You can play CDs in the Nav. slot, but you have to take out the Nav. disk.
Is the car fast you say? Well, I am still breaking it in. I have not "punched it" yet. I still am waiting for the 1k mi. break in period. But as far as I can tell, the car is a beast waiting to be released. The rumble from the exhaust is just enough to let you know something is lurking under the hood. The gas pedal is both sensitive and very responsive. I will try and post my “after break in” opinion
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
If the FSS indicates that service is due in 2,000 miles or less, bring it in for service.
Happy New Years everyone
My (94-00) C-class has only required 1 maintenance visit in 20K.
I own a C320 and BMW 330Ci, with a C32 on order. Having driven one extensively I can offer the opinion that there is simply no a better car out there in this category short of $100,000 (the M5 is debatable). You will not be dissapointed. An excellent message board dedicated to this vehicle is at www.C32Life.com
-Regards
You have to get the dealer to rest FSS. I'm pretty sure they won't charge you. If you are getting oil changes every 5K, you can just ignore FSS.
I'm sure that the dealer relies on their service history to see what has been done, plus the car's computer problem tells them all they need to know, anyway.