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Mercedes-Benz C-Class Sedans
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Comments
Sherrill
I'm new to this board but it is looking more and more like my next car will be a C320 Luxury Sedan. Does anyone know when the introduction of the 2006s will be? Will it happen in May, as with the 2005s or will they go back to the more usual September time frame?
Thanks
This year's timing was all about the facelift; they wanted to get the cars out there as soon as the plants were producing the cars with the changes. I see nothing like that for the '06 models.
2007 will see the intro of the successor car; EU availability in early '07, late '07 here?
Now, another question(s) for someone who is familiar with the European Delivery program:
1) Is there a minimum time required in Germany? Can you just drive across town and drop off the same day?
2) When is payment required?
3) How do you handle a trade-in? Do you have to surrender your old car in advance and go without it for a while?
4) Do you or do you not pay the destination fee? The MB website is especially unclear about this.
5) Can you negotiate down from the 7% discount?
6) Do dealers try to tack on additional fees like dealer prep?
7) When and how do you schedule the factory tour?
Thanks again
Since invoice = 93% of MSRP, another way of stating the above is you get the vehicle for U.S. invoice plus destination fee. (That still leaves unanswered whether the dealers try to stick you with other charges like advertising or dealer prep.)
-No minimum time. You can drive it directly to a dropoff point if you want.
-Payment - I think the online site covers this - payment is due x number of days prior to delivery - think it's 30 or 60 days.
-Trade-in - You trade your old car whenever you're ready to give it up. Of course, that means it is valued as of that time. In practice, that means you are on the hook for two cars until your new one arrives back in the states, OR you give up the old one for some time while the whole process plays out. Thus, you have to be able to handle the financial implications of not having a simultaneous trade and delivery, or handle the entire price of the new car for 60-90 days.
-Destination fee - no, you don't pay it, which is no small thing the way they keep jacking it up every year.
-Negotiations - in theory, the dealer can discount the price further. In practice, there is very little wiggle room. Generally, the price is what it is. In the "olden days" of 20% margins, the discount was half [10% profit], and it was common for some dealers to discount further...no more.
-Add-on fees - nope, an honest dealer should handle this at no extra charge, only what is charged to every other customer [local license fees, sales tax, and a modest document fee are all common to both kinds of transactions]. If you encounter any resistance, buy from someone else. Use the internet if your local dealer is clueless or resistant on EU delivery.
-Factory Tour - ....and it's a highlight! You don't have to schedule in advance. When you show up at the Delivery Center in Sindelfingen, you'll be given the option to take the tour either before or after your "delivery ceremony". And check out the status of the MB museum in downtown Stuttgart - they are building a new one, and I don't know the current situation, but you should ask - it's another must-see for any enthusiast.
You have the basic numbers right, per your second post.
Anything else? I highly recommend this to everybody who wants to drive their Mercedes at least once in its native habitat. I always look forward to driving in Europe, and particularly Germany. In general, drivers are SO much better than here - more alert, better trained, and faster on their feet. It takes a day or two to get acclimated, and then you go with the flow.
Thanks for the info.
So you've done an ED too?!? I'm not too surprised, really. I have a trip to Germany scheduled for June, so it's a possibility but I will need a new car around March 1, so I may let the dealer convince me to buy something off the lot...
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question122.htm
One failing of turbochargers in the past has been a lag between the demand for acceleration and the kick-in of the turbo but it seems this problem has been solved by a number of manufacturers -- which may be why MB is getting away from the supercharger. I rented a diesel turbo Passat this summer in Italy and drove it for over 6200 KM and never once noticed any turbo-lag.
BMW ED has a similar discount on the base MSRP, but there is no automatic discount on the options.
A supercharger is typically driven off the crankshaft like the alternator and A/C compressor, so boost is always present but this adds parasitic drag to the drivetrain.
I can't believe MB is abandoning superchargers. It's much harder to tune a turbo to give good performance over a wide range of driving situations. It's not going to matter for a good V8 or the V12, but it will be harder to avoid compromises on a 4 or 6 cylinder.
I'm not SURE about the MB pricing. I just went through the ED configuration webpages up to the point that a price was given for my proposed vehicle, including options. That price equaled invoice for the base car AND the options.
Anybody have an answer for me about free loaner cars if you didn't buy at the servicing dealership? This will be very important in my purchasing strategy.
On the loaner question: each dealer is allowed to set their own policy, so unfortunately, the only way to be sure is to ask. Practices vary from being very generous [every service customer gets some kind of transportation] to parsimonious [nothing at all, or restricted to people who bought their cars there, and even then not always available]. Needless to say, a competitive market helps [more than one dealer in the area, preferably owned by more than one person or entity - we had multiple dealers in Sacramento, and same here in the Portland OR area, but under common ownership in each case...no real competition].
You're not likely to get a lower price on MB overseas delivery by shopping around - there's just nothing much to work with. However, some dealers are more welcoming and knowledgeable about EU delivery than others, which can break a tie if you need to.
Keep in mind that outside of North America, the worldwide market is over 50% diesel...sometimes pushing 80% or more depending on the model and the locale.
And a final thought - there were a lot of complaints in the past about the noise and general roughness of the supercharged 4s from MB. Over several years, they made a lot of improvements, but maybe decided it wasn't worth it to keep trying to push this rock uphill.
I priced out a 2005 230 sedan with the ED discount and it didn't price very competitively with a 2005 ED BMW 325 optioned out the way I'd want it.
The 325 can be had in the range of $1500 to $2000 above the ED invoice after shopping around and you also get 4 years free maintenance along with at least average reliability and a smoother engine with the BMW.
Anyway, I've done the BMW thing, and it's Mercedes time...
On top of that it looks like a C230 Sport Sedan with options would actually cost MORE money than a discounted similar 325i even before adding the maintenance costs.
I chose our C240 over a 325 at least partly because, in the urban market in which we lived at the time, the MB dealer was both closer and considerably easier to get along with than the BMW guy. The actual differences between the cars were [and continue to be] VERY slim - small things that are ties that can be broken either way. I've said here before that anybody who picks a 3er over a C gets no serious argument from me. These are matters of personal preference that don't need real justification to strangers. But BMW's loaner policy is not different from MB's, no matter what you've been told to the contrary.
And yes, the 325 is a very attractive proposition on EU delivery. The savings are substantial, and for me, more importantly, you can get the car the way you really want it. Both BMW and MB dealers tend to order cars for our market that have too many options that I regard as completely useless, or in some cases, worse than useless. EU delivery offers both an attractive price and the ability to truly customize the car...for either make.
Nov 2001 - Nov 2002 = 1000 posts
Nov 2002 - Nov 2003 = 670 posts
Nov 2003 - Oct 2004 = 260 posts
I am sort of hoping there is a direct correlation between posts and problems!
I would think there would be an increase in sales for 2005 because of new updates and interior, but they negated improvements by removing free maintenance.
I think the 2005 model year is THE year to buy this generation C as it is most likely to be the most trouble-free. I understand that the 2007 model will be the first year of the new generation and some people say to avoid the last year of a generation (2006 in this case) as well as the first year.
I wonder what it costs to maintain the car for 4 years if you have all the required services done at the dealer?
This dropping of loaners is NOT MB policy -- just "my" dealer's. However the sales agent I spoke with said that she expected all the dealers in the area to adopt the same policy soon, so I suspect MB has withdrawn some money they were giving to dealers to subsidize their loaners.
Only if the price is so good that it is still worth it to pay maintenance and car rentals out of your own pocket, would it still be worth it. Even if they don't offer free loaners, I would hope they at least have convenient private car rentals onsite (Enterprise etc.).
It's bizarre that they are penny pinching at a time when I thought they wanted to improve their ratings.
Good point, for S-class owners, it's not about the money, I imagine, but being treated in the fashion which they're accustomed to being treated.
I too was really disappointed that MB dropped the free maintenance for '05. However, you only have to bring it in for any kind of service every 13,000 miles, so it's not that terrible. I had to take my Volvo in every 7,500 and it cost me over $100 every time ($400 at 30K miles). Estimated service visits are around $209 for an 'A' service and $393 for 'B' service, so it's pretty much the same as the Volvo. Seems kind of high until I slide into the seat and see that 3-point star shining on the black hood and then I don't care anymore. ;-)
My dealer has free loaners. In fact the dealer was one of the major reasons I bought this over the 325i that my oldest son wanted me to get (he's a MAJOR car nut, at 11!!! I'm in trouble). The MB dealer treated me like I was buying an S Class and worked with me on everything I wanted--truly world-class treatment. I'll go ahead and plug them: Mercedes-Benz of Knoxville, TN. I ought to get a free license plate frame for that, ya' think?
I would think that there would be some checks and adjustments that need to be done more often than 13,000 miles.
If the interval is that long, you would need to check the oil and other fluid levels yourself several times between dealer services. Most new cars will use less than a quart of oil between a 5,000 to 7500 mile service, but 13,000 miles is a long time with no one ever lifting the hood.
If it needs so little maintenance it makes it seem even more petty that they removed complimentary service.
For us, accumulating at the rate of 7k a year or so, I expect to get 2 "A" and 1 "B" plus maybe one coolant change and 2 brake fluid changes. My calculations put the value of that somewhere south of $600-700.
I'm not saying this is a trivial expense, but it shouldn't be a show-stopper, either.
On another note, we just took off for a quick road trip that took us from Vancouver WA to Reno and back, about 1300 miles in 4 days. The weather cooperated [fantastic sunrises in the desert], and the C240 was once again a revelation: fast, quiet, comfortable, and altogether a great experience. Mostly we stuck within 5-10 mph of the speed limits, but I briefly gave in to temptation a couple of times on US395 between Susanville and Alturas - 90-95 mph felt like the car was loafing, and 110 was no strain either. At these speeds, the car tracks like a train - no steering input required at all. Passing power [even at the 4000-5000 ft altitudes in the neighborhood] proved once again that, while no one kicks more hp out of bed, there is nothing wrong with the 2.6 liter V6. We never encountered even the slightest difficulty going around slower traffic - kick it down to 3rd and let the automatic do its thing to redline in 3rd and, if necessary, 4th. For all that, we actually averaged 28-30 mpg, well over the EPA highway number, and the best we've managed on any long trip. Really great stuff...
And, a brief plug for the new dealership in Reno - once there, I decided to have the oil changed [the FSS is calling for a B service at about 12k miles from the last service, and I wanted to do a change that would cut the interval from 12k miles to about 6k, just for this service cycle]. They took us with practically no notice, and did the work [including a couple of other small things] in short order, including the obligatory wash. The dealer there went from a hole-in-the-wall that was struggling 3 years ago, to a service-only operation run by the Von Housen group in Sacto, to a new suburban facility that is first class all the way [also owned by Von Housen]. By contrast, the BMW guy shares a facility with Volvo, and doesn't have either the stock nor the service area that MB can now offer....so it does really come down to what you value and what the local market offers. [I didn't ask them about loaners because it wasn't an issue for us.]
Must not be the C230.
Welcome aboard dprovons -- good post.
I just called the dealer service department to get hard numbers and they charge:
A - $185
B - $385
So, as jrct9454 said, it's not that big a deal. Teaches me to believe anything a salesman trying to sell you something says -- the $1500 figure came from a salesman trying to sell me a left-over 2004.
Personally, I would rather take the better price and sales incentives on a 2004 which can be close to a 10% savings over a 2005 model. There is not that much of a "noticeable" difference on the redesign and new electronics is alway risky.
Why does the C230 sedan seem like a better value than the C240?
The C230 sedan is approximately $2k less accounting for the automatic transmission than the C240, BUT it seems to offer more value since it has more upgrades. The C230 has better front calipers and rotors, better exhaust, more expensive tires, larger rims, thicker stabilizer bars, and of course the supercharger.
Shouldn't the C230 cost more than the C240? Does it cost more to build? Does a V-6 cost that much more than a supercharged four?
Why does the C240 outsell the C230 when it seems overpriced?
If anyone has any ideas, it would be appreciated.
Thanks.
PS. Is the new C class scheduled yet, or are people simply estimating that it will be the '07 model?
As for pricing - let's all share a big laugh here. Yes, the V6s [BOTH of them] actually cost less to produce than the the 4 cyl with the supercharger. Why should the 3.2 be priced, on a comparable equipment basis, $2-3k more than the 2.6? Why should either of them cost more than the 4 cyl? I surely don't know - these are marketing decisions...what the traffic will apparently bear...
And finally, no, I don't think that hp is or should be a big pricing differentiator - I would still pay more today for our 168 hp C240 than the C230 because the former is the car I want, not the latter. In the greater context of the marketplace, ALL German cars are probably overpriced, so it comes down to what each customer values and is willing to pay for.
At the least the 240 should have more of the popular optional equipment standard for the price.
Do you remember where and when you posted the original discussion? I would like to take a look at it.
I also wound up buying the c240 for my wife, but it just annoys me since I feel like I paid more for less car(from the same make).
I also specifically stated more "expensive" in referring to the tires. I agree with what you said about ride quality, but the rest of the items seem to upgrades.
"The C230 has better front calipers and rotors, better exhaust, more expensive tires, larger rims, thicker stabilizer bars, and of course the supercharger."
The C320 should be more since it comes with the comfora package and upgraded sound system as standard, plus the digital climate controls so the price difference is only about $1K-2K for 30% more HP which is very reasonable.
I also compared the C320 sport and luxury sedans. When you adjust for the transmission, the C320 sport sedan is about $700 more than the luxury model which makes more sense.
It also should be noted that the c240 sedan is the most popular C-class model. Are C240 buyers in effect paying a surcharge for popularity?
Thanks..
These are matters of personal taste and very narrow preference - I always believe it's your money, you should get what you want. But don't look for a lot of rationality in pricing and marketing - there is a perception that the C230 is aimed at an entirely different audience than the C240. Certainly, in my case, that is true in spades.
In any case, I'm looking forward to the B class and hoping that pricing there will match up well against the Audi A3, and Mazda 5 - the only thing I want to improve on our car is the fore-aft legroom in back. The B should take care of that very well.
Some of the equipment is better on the C230 and it's the items that make a difference in performance and safety.
The C240 has wood trim inside, a 4 spoke steering wheel, softer ride, and probably an additional convenience item somewhere.
The C230 is bringing new customers to MB. The C240 seems to cater to existing or luxury buyers, so they can charge more for it.
As for maintenance, my own experience is that I'll probably get the standard 13,000 between services and so will need two As and 1 B. That's $755, but I can probably get it done for less away from the dealer.
The styling: lowered ride height, 17" wheels, crouched (almost lunging) design, stadium seating, great visibility out of the car, etc. just put the 230 over the top for me. It also had more back seat room and trunk space than the other cars I considered (Lexus IS300, BMW 325i, Audi A4, Saab 9-3 Arc). Combine all that with the high resale value and the best local dealership reputation and choice was easy. I'm kind of glad it's the unsung hero of the C-Class lineup (better to under-promise and over-deliver). Also, I believe that the '05 updates came in at the same pricing as the '04, which makes the loss of free maintenance even less important. Of all the cars I looked at, only BMW and Saab still offers the free maint. and Saab only offers it for 3 yrs/36K miles.
1) Was the deal reasonably good, and
2) Any tips in maintaining the car
'05 C230K Sports Sedan
Black Opal Metallic Exterior, Ash interior
Sunroof/Moonroof package
5-Speed Auto Transmission
Heater front-seats
Single CD (no changer)
Priced at $31295, plus $2577 tax and $175 fees - $1500 trade in equals $32547 out the door.
Thanks for all your help and advice again!
Total w/Options:
MSRP $34,510, INVOICE $32,147, TMV $33,578
What was the trade in? A detailed description would help. What state was this? Sometimes deals are structured to save a little on sales tax on trade ins.