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A minor note, always complained about the lack of a power lock switch for the front passenger door. I cannot believe this is still missing from the 03. Come on Mazda, don't cheap out.
TJ
Regarding tires: When I get mine, I am driving directly to Discount Tire and get a set of Yokahamas or Michelin 80K tires. Both are very good tires... Then an alighnment and safety check at my trusted car repair shop.
It is clear that MPV is selling at a discount is becos it has Duratec engine...ISINC..will you disagree with this ?
If it were to have that beautiful Millenia's japanese engine...it would win over ody on all counts.....Note that J/D Power gave 2/5 for mechanical....
In the manual, there is an instruction about using the rear console.
Where is the button and how do I open it?
The shape is there, but the console doesn't look usable.
Is it a part of some option package?
It would be absurd to have the space, but not usable.
The Milli engine is very cool...I love forced induction... but don't ever let anyone but a factory trained mechanic work on it. :-) That and it seems that American buyers want displacement, which the Milli engine does not have. Look at all the other minivans... 3.0L, 3.3L, 3.5L.
Just my two bits of copper...
In the manual, there is an instruction about using the rear console.
Where is the button and how do I open it?
The shape is there, but the console doesn't look usable.
Is it a part of some option package?
It would be absurd to have the space, but not usable.
I still think 3.0l is not enough(i now own 02 ES)...it needs at least that v6 that's on Mazda 6 to compete with ody/sienna etc.
you know what's interesting, very very few MPVs were sold in 2000 & 2001......Ford thought they were saving money huh !
My MPV from the factory was ordered 12/9/02, delivered 3/19/03. Had a VIN in January. Not a pretty picture.
Hankyu,
Are you talking about that armrest space to the left of the 3rd-row-seat? That door disappears if you have power sliding doors. I have the space on mine (no power sliders) and use it for my DVD's wireless headphones.
~1300 miles, no major problems yet. Just an occasional whiff of that sulfur smell, but only rarely. And the rear license plate holder is banging against the door, starting to put a line in the paint. Gotta do something about that.
The manual should be written in more detail..
That space would have been useful.
The '6 has a 3.0L V6, btw, so it's really no bigger than the one currently in the MPV. It's a different engine, but only makes 18hp more. Seriously though, is it always about horsepower? Why do the DC vans sell, when their Voyager is sold with a 2.4L 4cyl (150hp) or 'monster' 3.3L (180hp). So, they don't sell on horsepower figures... why do we care then?
Personally, I'd rather have a vehicle made by hands that aren't in the Americas. Sorry, sounds unpatriotic, but I see too many Domestic/Imports with fit/finish and quality issues that are assembled on these shores. There are exceptions, however.
/j (stirring the pot)
So the Mazda6 also comes with the 3L Duratec.
I think there is a Duratecperformance.com site that addresses the 6 and others.
I have to ask folks why they are prejudiced against ALL Ford products? That makes as much sense as being prejudiced against ALL green people or whatever, or is as bad a POV as those 'mericans who wont ever consider a Furrin car.
Sorry, I'm just sick of the uninformed who complain about the Ford engine in Mazda's without knowing a damn thing about the engine.
I don't care for Ford, but I think the Duratec is a world class engine that has demonstrated reliability and relative high performance in a small package.
I do agree that the 2.5L probably shouldn't be in the van, but the only two speeding tickets I've gotten in the past 7 or 8 years have been in my "underpowered" 2.5L MPV.
TB
I get tired of the retoric as well. wah wah wah. I guess that's why I left tb for a while... to take a break from it. :-)
/j
Why people are against ford products ?
a. Contour had the record number of recalls & got phased out in 2-3 years.
b. Explorer has the famous roll-over story, killing thousands.
3. Recently, Focus was in the heat of senate hearings.....
Want more reasons ?
2. Let us define American/Foreign Cars:
Those who think GM/Ford is american is rather foolish! Very many GM products are assembled in Mexico, parts from Mexico too. BMW is made in Scouth carolina, Subarus made in Illionois. Toyota has factory in California & Honda in Alabama....As long as an American gets a paycheck in building a car, to me it is Domestic, though owned by a Foreign company. & not the other way around.
Please....
Ford Focus ZX3.
Ford of Europe designed and engineered the Focus, and the ZX3 model sold in the U.S. is assembled in Hermosillo, Mexico. Profit made on the sale of a Focus ZX3 goes to Ford Motor Company, but few Americans collect paychecks for the creation of the vehicle. Is it American or import?
1.
Why people are against ford products ?
a. Contour had the record number of recalls & got phased out in 2-3 years.
b. Explorer has the famous roll-over story, killing thousands.
3. Recently, Focus was in the heat of senate hearings.....
Want more reasons ?
Bottom Line Up Front, even with all of these problems, none of them indicate the Duratec is a bad engine.
My facts or views:
a. The Contour/Mystique ran from the 1995MY to 2000MY. By my count that is 6 model years. BTW it continues on in Europe as the Mondeo, a best seller BTW. (I do agree with the recall thing, but on the other hand at least Ford is fixing the things) There were very few recalls on the later MY cars.
b. The Explorer roll over is not an easy issue. Let me preface my remarks by saying that I detest SUV's. However, I believe there were three parties at fault. First, Ford for specifying such a low tire pressure for the vehicle. Second, Firestone for building what appeared to be a marginal tire. Finally the drivers. Yes the drivers. Many tests were done with trained drivers who KNEW not to get on the brakes during a blowout (heck I knew that and I practically slept through drivers ed) and I don't think they ever got the vehicle to roll over.
3. There are lots of things that are subject of Senate hearings. I do agree that the first two model years for the Focus were pretty bad in terms of recalls. But I think the initial quality issues have been addressed.
However, that begs another question. Since the Focus was already in production in Europe, why was it so hard to launch it in the US. The bottom line is Ford can build quality vehicles, but it doesn't seem they put forth their best effort here in North America.
However, I don't really think this is just a Ford issue. Just cruise the boards here and you will see where Honda transmissions are suspect, Toyota engines may be subject to sludge, and if you take advanage of the SCCA membership that came with a WRX, and autocross it, your Subie dealer may void your warranty.
But my point and anlogies are still valid, no car is perfect, nor is any engine. Each must be judged on its own merits and not lumped together with everything a carmaker has produced.
However, to be fair, I will have to think long and hard about buying another Ford. Why? I've had three Contours, none have left me stranded, but I did have recall and/or warranty repairs done on all of them, and none was fixed in a single visit. But my issue is a dealer issue. Well that and Ford really doesn't build anything I really want to buy anymore. (The Lincoln LS no longer comes with a stick, the Contour is gone, and it seems everything new is either a 2 door or an SUV/Truck.)
TB
You may be thinking of Mitsubishi which has a plant in Normal, IL
-Brian
I do disagree with this. There is nothing wrong with the Duratec engine. It's a great engine! I had the 3.5 Duratec in my Taurus, the engine was fine, it was the tranny that had the issues. My Honda Civic had serious engine and tranny issues. Go figure!!
Sorry folks, but I can't stand the Honda Ody, it's over rated and over priced. My MPV is awesome. Granted, I've had it for all of 3 weeks and it has just over 1000K on it (it had 10 miles on it when I bought it) we drive alot. I don't have a fix it list for the dealer either! Zoom-Zoom!
The market here thinks bigger is better.
How many "shorty" DC vans do you see compared to the "extended" size? Not many at all.
People think the bigger van must be better since it is bigger.
FWIW,
TB
There is no perfect vehicle on the road and the Ody is no exception. Yes, some vehicles are better then others but I think overall that it's really a matter of personal taste, needs and experience. I also feel that not everyone drives their vehicles the same or cares for them the same way. Couldn't this be some of the issue?
-Brian
It survived my 16-19 year old teen driving and then my sister got it when I was 20, and ran it out of oil a couple of times...
Back to vans.
TB
The people at Ford who knowingly put dangerous vehicles on the road (Pinto, maybe the Exploder) belong in jail. Period. The decisions they've made are reprehensible, indeed, criminal.
That said, companies seem to run through phases where they're really successful for a while and do good things, then stumble and loose their way, then respond to that crisis, etc.
Buying a car is an intensely complicated and emotional thing for most people, and a lot of factors are weighed more or less consciously. As to why DC vans sell well, one of the biggest reasons is simply price. They're cheaper to acquire, and that weighs heavily in the minds of many consumers. Now whether they're cheaper to own is another question, and a complicated one (depreciation, repair, hassle-factor, and all the rest). "Value", to me at least, involves the cost of ownership over time measured against all the things that add up to utility, including the "fun" factor.
I won't buy American because the value to me is pretty poor, despite the acquisition price. The design and engineering seem aimed at all the wrong priorities to me, as well (Form leading function, rather than following, etc). And frankly, I'm allergic to hype, which the American makes seem addicted to more so than the Japanese and European makes, IMHO.
On the other hand, if the premium to buy Japanese rises any further, it'll be a wash (American makes tend to be cheap to acquire and cheap to fix, but less reliable so you fix them more, Japanese tends to be expensive to acquire, expensive to fix, but more reliable, which means you pay for the reliability up front.)
CR recently published their annual auto edition, where they looked at (reported) defect rates by source (American, Japanese, European). Although the initial quality reported was very close, after a few years the Japanese were clearly doing better by a large margin. Unless the Americans and Europeans can close that gap, they will have to compete on price rather than quality for a long time to come.
I seriously doubt that the Ford engine block has much to do with the sales rates of the MPV vs other vans. It's size, pure and simple. The Odyssey didn't sell well as a rebadged Oasis either (last gen Odyssey was a lot smaller). The Quest and Sienna have all gone bigger - much bigger - and they will sell better now too.
But I won't buy one, because I will not own a bus. If that means I'm the exception to the rule, OK. My needs and priorities are different. You couldn't give me a Suburban either...
More than my 2 cents again, but there it is...
-brianV
>>> It's size, pure and simple. The Quest and Sienna have all gone bigger - much bigger - and they will sell better now too. >>>
That is where the MPV comes in, right ? Apart from size, I think the Oddy was a big hit due to the disappearing rear seat feature. Also, the 240 HP, 5 spd tranny and Honda badge helped. However, I didn't care much for the "pay-up-or-get-outta-line" attitude of the salespeople.
Anyone now with competition, the price war is on. The MPV should come up with split-rear seat design in addition to "disappearing" feature. That provides more seating and storage combos!
I would like to see Mazda really go whole hog on the sportiness thing, because they're the only ones who can in this segment. There's no such thing as a sporty bus.
1) Bump power another 10-15%: 225hp, 245 ft.lbs The Duratec can handle it, just need the heads from the Mazda 6 and some tuning. Heck, how about a turbo version? The Odyssey makes about 5.5hp per 100# of curb weight. I want to see 6+ and gobs of torque early - variable valve timing can deliver this easily with today's technology.
2) 225/55R17 tires standard on the ES, 225/60R16 standard on the LX.
3) Optional AWD across the board
4) True class II towing: 3500# in the trailer plus 800# on board after the tongue weight - the current 3000# limit is a marketing fantasy: you'd have to drive naked, alone, and never put more than 1/2 a tank of gas in to tow that much.
5) 4 wheel disk brakes standard
6) Premium sound system as a stand-alone option
7) Extend the range of the front/rear seat movement in rows 1 & 2 to better accomodate long-legged adults.
8) Split rear seat.
9) Heated front seats
Think of the fun you could have in head to head ads ! Odyssey owners backing up into a parking space with a beeper going off, like a garbage truck... Sienna's being diverted onto the truck bypass in the mountains, while the MPV cruises into the sunset on the glorious, picturesque winding mountain road...
You get the idea.
-brianV
Steve, Host
(visioning a commercial with a MPV pulling into a garage, with a neighborhood street full of Odys with bird stuff on them)
How much of an issue is engine quality vs. transmission quality (since MPV has Japanese transmission, domestic engine, correct?) as regard long term reliability? I like that the MPV is Japanese built. But if I buy an MPV with a Ford Engine, am I inadvertantly contributing to Ford's profits (thus supporting a company with a fairly blatent history of contempt for consumer safety)??
I like the MPV from an emotional standoint. Very attractive, seems solidly built. I don't need a "boat,"as Bryan suggests, just a versatile car with high safety ratings, good performance, lots of function and reliablity. One cause of concern though is resale values on MPV's. According to my perusal of the classifieds, MPVs seem to depreciate at about the same rate as domestics-- even fully loaded ES's with leather and dvd. So I'm wondering if it makes sense to invest up front in a Sienna that won't depriciate so quickly, or if its just the choice of paying up front or paying later, as Bryan suggests.
I tend to prefer the "pay later" strategy, as can be easily attested by a perusal of my monthly Visa statements. Mebbe there is more wisdom in the reverse of this policy.?
Still wieghing pros and cons.... :-) -- Tracy
I have a theory about why size is so important:
For a large segment of the population, they wouldn't be caught dead driving a minivan. (Just look at the sales of SUV's). Therefore, they don't break down and buy one until they are forced to, due to increased family size, cargo needs, etc.
For these people bigger makes the most sense, because they are really buying a minivan under duress, and will make due with a car or a smaller SUV like an Explorer or Blazer as long as possible.
The Duratec thing has been brought up many times. I guess because it's made by Ford, some people automatically think it's a garbage engine. It's not. In fact, it's one of the best engines made by any company.
The Oddy gets high overall ratings, but the MPV is actually ranked ahead of the Oddy in terms of reliability. The only van ranked higher in reliability is the current (not the new one) Sienna.
So much so for market differences. Canadians are more concentrated in big cities with less freeways comparing to U.S. metro cities. Thus small vehicle footprint for easy parking and durability in harsh winter environment supercedes freeway cruising power. As for Mazda, they concentrate their dealerships in metro cities and thus hitting the sweet market spot.
Many analyst in the car industry say among other things, the U.S. market is very much a distribution market. Ford sells many times more Escapes than Mazda selling Tributes simply because Ford has nearly 10 times the dearlerships of Mazda. Did you hear people doesn't even know the MPV exist ? Even though Mazda might have produced one of the best true-minivan in the world as Canadians already realized, Mazda's tiny dealership network in the U.S. on one hand and the obsession with space openness in suburban America living on the other might dictate that the MPV continues to be a niche player. However, if measured on a sales per dealer basis, I don't know if Mazda might be relatively good.
By the way, come visit Canada in the summer. You'll be overwhelmed by MPV's in cities like Vancouver and Toronto !
I have been avoiding SUV' s for all the usual reasons-- rollover issues, gas-guzzling, etc. I require a car with more room than a sedan, and safety is very important to me. So minivans are the only thing that comes to mind.
Bigger is not better, in my opinion, though. This feeling seems to run counter to the majority since vans keep getting larger, and smaller vans aren't selling. (I actually preferred the smaller size of the previous Sienna.)
And it's certainly true that smaller vans get passed over for bigger SUV's due to the soccor-mom image thing. Buyers who fear minivans are emasculating would rather settle for an SUV with dismal rollover ratings than have their images tainted by a rolling Mom-mobile!
So it seems the small dealership network in US plays a very big factor in the low number of sales here. Then why doesn't Mazda have greater distribution here?
Yesterday I drove around town and searched high and low for MPV's-- didn't find any! So I'm very relieved to hear they are so abundant in Canada.
Now leaning more decidedly towards the MPV's (vs. Sienna) after hearing they are considered a very good choice by all the folks in Vancouver and Toronto--! ---Tracy
As to comparisons with Toyota and Honda, those makes enjoy and have enjoyed a phenomenal reputation for quality over many years, so the market demand may be lagging behind their current build quality (which seems to have slipped a bit per CR, especially on the Odyssey).
Perceptions are slippery, and market perceptions doubly so. Measured against absolute defect counts, even the American makes are much improved over their worst years, but they have failed to catch the Japanese competition. So absolute quality is up across the board (a point that CR confirms by the way), but relative quality is pretty much unchanged, and the market perceptions seem to be keying more on the latter.
-brianV
Since the engine was upsized in 2002, the press has turned much more positive, and we've noticed a huge increase in the number of MPV's in the Denver area. I bet if you looked at the sales figures, you'd see a considerable increase over 2000-2001 despite the downturn in the economy and all the uncertainty since 9/11, if not in absolute numbers than as a percentage of vans sold. Your region may be very different, of course, which might mean that your local dealer would be more willing to negotiate on an MPV in your area, by the way.
Different markets reward different styles. The U.S. market rewards large size far more than any other to my knowledge. Americans on the whole are obsessed with large vehicles, have been for a long time. Most other markets are reversed. So big cars actually depreciate faster in Germany than little ones do, the exact opposite of what you see here. One reason the MPV is depreciating faster than the Ody is size. Honda's reputation is also a factor, of course.
Keep in mind that depreciation is calculated based on MSRP, so Ody's that sold over MSRP will be understating their depreciation, and MPV's that sold under MSRP will be overstating it. You'd be surprised how big a difference that makes. The additional (uncounted) difference could be as high as $5000 (Ody sold for 3k over, MPV for 2k under their respective MSRP's.) Food for thought...
Since we keep our vehicles for 10 years or more, resale is of little concern to us personally, but reliability all the more so. Your mileage may vary, of course.
-brianV
If you live in the snow area, get the 4 seasons package with traction control. we are very happy with the way MPV behaved in the snow, even compared to my AWD Subaru.
Get that moonroof ! which i regret for not getting.
Yes, resale for MPV is a huge issue esp. if you get ES. but if you buy @ 4-5k below MSRP, it should not be that big of a deal.
BTW, all of MPV money that you pay will go to ford since ford owns Mazda, not jus the engine portion.
I recently went and checked out the going prices for the 2000/2001 MPV in my area. I found an identical twin to my van ,with 35k miles (vs my 34k) in the paper recently, for $16,500. I called them to ask some questions, and they told me it was already sold. I went to some lots, found a red one, same options as mine, asking price of $18k. Another one, without the Luxury package, was going for $16k. TMV for my van is $15k (I even was honest and said it was in 'clean' condition, b/c it's not perfect). So, keeping in mind that I bought my van for $23k, when MSRP was $26k, I can assume that depreciation will be about $7-8k in 4 yrs of ownership... assuming I get rid of it soon.
Now, I looked at Odys way back when, and it'd have cost me $31K for a comparably equipped Ody when we bought our van in '99, b/c the Ody started at a higher price, plus you had to pay $3000 over msrp, take whatever model came in, and put up w/arrogant sales staff, while waiting 3mths for a vehicle. The similar 2000 Ody sells on lots for $18k, locally... and there are tons of them on used lots. Of course the Honda dealer is listing a few 2000 Odys for $26k used, but I am pretty sure they smoke crack over there. TMV for the van is about $18k. Keeping that in mind, again, I'd have had 10-13k in depreciation in 4yrs. Not to mention it would've cost another $150/mth.
Really, the difference isn't astounding, imho, but if it matters to you, it matters to you. Why though, should I buy a vehicle for over MSRP? My bank won't loan me more than 100% LTV (what, are they stupid?) so why should I buy that way?
So, after almost 4yrs of ownership, I don't feel bad that I have a small minivan (I wanted small) with a 'dangerously underpowered' engine made by Satan, I mean Ford. I don't feel like it was a bad investment... except that I think of a car as a tool, not an investment. I'm glad I didn't follow the herd, and only have a few things I'd wish different on my van.
#1 on that list would be awd... :-)
and.. for the record, Ford doesn't own Mazda. They own about 1/3. They do own 100% of Volvo Cars, and the other PAG family of automobiles.
http://www.quirkcars.com/specials/imports/mazda.pdf
Too many variables I agree, but you have to start somewhere....
Steve, Host
I didn't know that they don't offer awd in the V6 anymore, or that they get NAV, a trip computer, automatic HVAC, and that the UK gets a diesel...
I like everything I've been reading here about why the MVP is a good choice. Thanks so much. This site is so helpful!
Sweet Subie-- 5k under list would be very enticing. Locally, saw ads for S-plan (aprox. invoice) minus the 2k rebate. Another ad for $1500 off list, plus rebate. Are these the best deals to be had, or should we consider negotiating for more? (Would asking for additional discounts be greedy?) Wondering if advertised prices in papers are usually the dealer's bottom line, or do they expect buyers to haggle for more? Still catching up on car- buying protocol.
One final note--I completely agree about the superior driver visibility up front in MVP-- a definite flaw in the Sienna. And are you anguishing for the moonroof just on principle? ---------------------Tracy
"Copywright 2003 Mazda Motor Corp. All Rights Reserved."
the Mazda.com website (the one w/the expanded globe) has Ford's name on it, but how does that say that Ford owns Mazda?
Please show me where you know that Ford owns anything more than a 33.4% share in Mazda.
http://www.ford.com/en/company/about/brands/default.htm
if you are still not convinced....got o ford.com, download their annual report.....you will see in detail!
2. If you are getting atleast 3.5 to 4k below MSRP, you are getting enough. otherwise, go to another dealer.
3. If you live in the northeast, go to fitzmall.com & buy it. they offer fixed prices & are in the DC area...worth a visit !
Ford Motor Company offers a wealth of variety to the automotive consumer. As we celebrate our 100th anniversary, we are in a position to appeal to the widest range of potential customers. Each of our automotive brands has a unique personality and holds a distinct place in the Ford Motor Company family.
...rather, something that says 'Ford owns 100% of Mazda Cars,' or that Mazda Cars is a 'Wholly Owned Subsidiary' or something to that nature.
I for one cannot find anything stating that Ford has more than a 33.4% holding in Mazda... and I should think I would be able to.
However, Ford does own 100% of Volvo (which is rumored to be for sale, b/c Ford is in $$$ trouble...whoop, did I say that?), Hertz Car Rental, Jag, A-M, Rover (but I don't know for sure if they bought all of Rover from BMW yet), as well as a number of other automotive-related manufacturing and servicing companies, such as Kwik-Fit (purchased in '99 I think) or Ford Motorcraft.