Think your 4% figure for the extended warranty, as a percentage of car's price, vis-a-vis the sales tax is a misleading figure. Don't think it adequately captures what you are buying and for how long. At least the sales tax is a one time cost that "lasts" for as long as you own the car. The extended warranty is limited in time and mileage, and doesn't last for as long as you own the car.
Say you paid $35K for an LS8. The 6% sales tax is about $2,100 & 4% extended warranty would be about $1,400. Say it covers you for an additional 2 years and 25K miles. If you own the car for 6 years and 120,000 miles (averaging about 20K miles annually), the sales tax cost you 1.75 cents per mile driven. The extended warranty cost you 5.6 cents per covered mile driven.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to extended warranties. I think they can be acceptable if there is no deductible, it is from the manufacturer, the terms fit well the way you drive the car (i.e., buy time, and not miles, if you drive low miles and buy miles, not time, if you drive high miles), and it is reasonably priced. When Lincoln told me an additional two years and about 25K miles would cost about $2,400, or 9.6 cents per covered mile driven, I was aghast. That was an outrageous price--considering they get my money today and the policy doesn't kick in until after 4 years or 50K miles, whichever comes first. I shopped around to see if I could get a better no deductible price elsewhere. Not much budging.
The two extended warranties I purchased from GM were much more reasonably priced. So was the one I purchased from Infiniti.
Though if Lincoln assumes the car will break down a lot during the period, then the cost is "reasonable" (actuarially speaking), but that would reflect fact it is a trouble-prone, unreliable car that is expected to break down during the extended warranty period. I'll hit 30K miles soon. Not sure I will keep her much past 50K. I've had too many little problems already. Makes me wonder if I shouldn't have bought the extended warranty? But I can just as easily unload it in lieu of that. (That is why building a reliable car for the long haul is important in this market segment. I may go back to Infiniti.)
I am not a proponent of extended warranty's, because I feel that insurance is to avoid catastrophic loss by incurring regular affordable payments. I usually keep my cars a long time, however, the only time that I actually purchased extended coverage was with my last car, a Seville STS because of what I perceived as an untested engine (the Northstar, which I think is a terrific engine now), and the question that I had as to the strength of that front drive with that powerful engine. The only reason that I got my moneys worth was the very reason that I got rid of the car; the maintenance problems and problems with dependability on that front end including the transmission and other assorted parts.
My point is that if I was getting my moneys worth out of an extended warranty, I would probably feel like getting rid of that vehicle as not being dependable enough for my main transportation.
ronniepooh, have you checked with www.fordpartsnetwork.com on the mats? Torrie gives really good pricing and can probably get them for you cheaper than Action LM.
joe166: that is expressly why I don't but extended warranties. My Dad told me yesterday (:~}) when I was a young whipper snapper that if a company needed to sell warranty then the product must not be worth buying! He would always tell the salesman that. They were always dumbfounded and speechless!
You're right; the sales tax analogy is lousy. I was groping for a way to put the $1495 price of the warranty in perspective to the price of the car, because it just doesn't seem like that much to me. Cost per mile makes the most sense. At 25k per year I will surely use all 50k miles of coverage, so that's 3 cents per mile. Good enough for me, not so for others; so be it.
We're on opposite sides of the deductible question. I'd gladly accept a higher deductible for a lower "premium". As I said before, it's the big-ticket repairs that concern me. Engine, transmission, major electrical disasters. After all, there is a Triumph TR-7 parked next to my LS in the garage, and maybe some of those Lucas gremlins might sneak over to the Lincoln some night.
If the Triumph TR-7 and the LS could mate, wonder what the progeny would be like? Hope the gremlins stay with the Prince of Darkness and leave the Lincoln alone!
The floormats that are included in the new Premium package are listed as "premium floormats with logo"; this sounds like the mats you were trying to get. Maybe they've just changed the part number. At any rate, that's evidence that there are some sort of premium mats that are still being made. (There's also a matching trunk mat in that package.)
The Premium interior only comes in tutone medium/light parchment and grey/charcoal. I've only seen one--the parchment--and the mats weren't in it. It did look like the carpet was the same color as my parchment interior, so I assume the mats are that color, too. If either of those colors works for you, you might see if Acton or some other dealer can find part numbers for the Premium package mats. If they're not the same as the other ones, maybe they're similar.
If Lincoln is listening, please be advised that you have lost a repeat customer, because of lack of a V8 Manual. To get a manual in an automobile to at least match the LS, I had to order an Audi S4 Avant (also need a little extra room). If the manual had been available it would have been no contest, based on price/performance. I test drove many vehicles, and the only one better (In my price range)was the S4. And the S4 pushed me higher than I wanted to pay, but is worth the price IMHO. Jim W
Just received the latest "American Luxury" edition. Whomever pulled the the Lincoln owner demographics must have accidentally received the Aston Martin owner data instead. I wonder how many Lincoln owners there are who wear a $350 Hugo Boss tank dress over their $725 Nicole Farhi silk underdress?
The issue also has a 7 to 1.5 page count in favor of the Navigator & Blackwood to LS (counting the navigator seats in the US open page). Makes me want to put some giant off road tires on my LS so I can stay in the Lincoln family.
If Lincoln is listening, please be advised that you have lost a repeat customer, because of lack of a V8 Manual. To get a manual in an automobile to at least match the LS, I had to order an Audi S4 Avant (also need a little extra room). If the manual had been available it would have been no contest, based on price/performance. I test drove many vehicles, and the only one better (In my price range)was the S4. And the S4 pushed me higher than I wanted to pay, but is worth the price IMHO. Jim W
This board upsets me because no one seems to wanrt to "buy American" anymore....what's happening to our citizens these days ? Jim ..... i won't digress further or i won't stop
i'm sorry in that i realize you all bought american when you bought the LS...but many didn't list that as a main criteria and many seem to be hung up on european and asian manufacturers...i guess i'm just an american retired machinist upset with all the manufacuring jobs going overseas and nothing made here anymore jim
As you know, it is much tougher to define "made in America" in today's global economy.
Chances are that the Honda or BMW being driven was built in the U.S. by American workers (who actually came from somewhere else at some point). Consumers now make choices based on how the car is built rather than where it was assembled.
This is the first non-american brand I will be getting in thirty years. When cars cost twice what I paid for my first house, I want to get exactly what I want. Like I said the LS is a great car if you like an automatic trans. I wanted a manual, not a manumatic. Are you suggesting I should buy american and NOT get what I want. If Lincoln put a manual with the V8, like many others I would have one. I know it's available with the v6, but I want more performance. If Lincoln had a 240 hp v6 like in the s-type, I would have been in line. But I also mentioned I can use the versatility of a small wagon. So what american auto would you suggest with the performance of the v8 LS, a wagon and a manual trans. Jim W
This is a discussion about the Lincoln LS in a non-political car forum, so let's just stick to the non-political discussions that we have been having about this particular vehicle, please.
Thanks.
Pat Host Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
Regardless of anything else, be happy that the LS is a truly fine American automobile. Sure, it is a great collaboration between UK Jaguar (part of Ford's worldwide corporate empire) and Lincoln, but it is built in USA. If you want to buy American, then buy another LS! I'd be more concerned about the capabilities and quality of a car rather than its origins. Healthy international competition is making Lincoln and Cadillac build better cars. And that is a good thing, a very good thing. Anyone remember the Cadillac Cimarron? Lincoln Versailles? Most of us would rather forget. The LS helps us to.
Excuse me, Pat, but since when is mention of the country of origin of a car a political discussion?
IMO, a political discussion may ensue when someone says, for example, that Bill and Hillary Clinton are wide-eyed and dangerous liberal wackos. And they're liars and thieves to boot.
Pointing out that an Audi is a fine German car and the LS is a fine American car has *nothing* to do with politics.
The only point I was trying to make is that Lincoln is missing out by Not making an LS V8 manual. The LS would truely be a fantastic auto. and as I said I would be driving one right now instead of an Audi. And I would like to believe I'm not the only one. Jim W
You're not the only one. Many have said that on this board before you. Whether LM market research believes it or not, we're out here.
Yes, I'm another one who would like to see a V8 manual LS. I did buy the 5Speed manual with the 210hp V6. And I'm not unhappy at all with it. The Duratech is getting better each time I drive it. (I have only 1900 miles)
Would I have bought a higher performing LS/manual? Yeah, probably. The 3.0 liter Duratech with VVT that's in the Jag or the V8. Either would work for me.
A V-8 LS Manual could be an American performance icon, even if you dropped in the current Getrag non-overdrive 5 speed from the V-6 Manual. But the current LS Manual in V-6 form turns 3000 rpm at 75mph with a 3:07 rear ratio. The V-8 with the same ratios would probably rival the Expedition in gas mileage. There are two possibilities, either/and, for LM to raise the performance bar and be competitive with current and forthcoming models from BMW,MB and maybe Audi. Both V-6 and V-8 LSs need a Getrag six-speed to increase both performance and economy. The rear ratio in the V-8 could be maintained at 3:36; the ratio in the V-6 could be increased to the same as in the V-6 Auto - 3:58. Both cars would have an immediate performance boost,with the V-6 0-60 time decreasing to below 7 seconds. Six speeds will soon be as common as water, with the Ford Focus and Nissan Sentra at the low end, and the IS300 in the middle, and the MB240 already available (with the gutless V-6, unfortunately for the consumer but lucky for LM). Cost for the six-speed to LM would be around $1500-2000 not counting R&D, but rumor has it that Jaguar has already done it for a Manual V-8 Thunderbird for MY2003. It doesn't cost alot to make an American 540i6 if you don't get carried away with the retail price. As for rear ratios, all are already in the parts bin and in current production. The V-6 Manual would get the heavier V-8 axles and pumpkin housing. Very little if any cost difference here. Next step is a limited-slip pumpkin for the odd, LS only differential. Traction control schemes are fine for most drivers, but LSD is mandatory for serious street and slolom work. All the Japanese and European performance cars come with it. Don't get caught in the cones without it (I did at LS Mania). Cost to LM would be minimal and could be an option although I think all Manuals should have it from the factory. So possible scenario #1 would be a V-8 Manual with a six-speed and LSD, keeping the current 3:36 rear. Just raise the price about 5 grand and that should cover it. Potential 540i6 owners would come a runnin... Possible scenario # 2 would be to make the V-6 Manual a special vehicle. This would not be "just a V-6 LS with a Manual". The V-6 Manual would have a 3:58 LSD rear, a Getrag six-speed, and the Duratech V-6 ala Jag with VVT heads. This car would beat the V-8 LS in performance, justifying the Manuals existence. Jag owners wouldn't be attracted to the LS because of the Manual transmission (as if VVT drew them to any car in the first place). So the marketing idiots at Premier wouldn't lose their cool at the prospect of "VVT for the masses" because it would be used for one special low-volume model. Of course, this level of performance, after being reviewed by the car mags as the new holy grail, might change LM's idea of Manual volume sales. Katie bar the door! All this for less than $40,000! Cost to LM would probably be less than $5,000. Off the shelf parts except for the LSD. If that's a problem to design and implement, modify the mounts on the Cobra IRS set-up and use for the LS Manual. Both rear ends are made on the same line. It really comes down to the LS original team picking up the baton again and running to the finish line. Or should it be the "finishing line". For the LS Manual concept wasn't stillborn. It just wasn't finished. The chassis, the suspension, the aluminum panels, the battery in the trunk - all that is world class. I'd only want lighter wheels. But the drivetrain - that's where we need the polish. You can't just throw in an old non-overdrive Getrag to make "world-class". It's part of a performance "system". That tranny has compromised the end result. The lack of LSD and the compromised rear end ratio lowers performance. The lack of overdrive lowers CAFE/EPA and engine life. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy my Manual LS. But just a little improvement at minimal cost to LM would make for a major performance improvement and a more competitive car for the near future. Do it before you have to.
2.) My reading of the info. on the LLSOC Site leads me to believe that there will be "Round Table" discussions at the same time the Driving School is in full swing.
This leads me to my dumb question(s) de jour:
Are there multiple Driving School sessions? Will we know who is scheduled for the Round Tables in advance - so we can try to schedule the one(s) of most interest? Or am I mis-reading the plan? Thanks, - Ray Who has tentatively budgeted for the purchase of 4 new tires - expecting to smoke several thousand miles worth of rubber of driving the road course!
I attended the event at Irvine in January and was thoroughly impressed, pleased and reinforced in my choice in having bought an LS manual. I'd never done one of these cone courses before, so it was a definite learning experience for me, but pleasant nevertheless. All those present probably remember the wayward BMW that showed up mid-afternoon.
Since then, I've read this forum and contributed occasionally, but a question continues to trouble me. Does anyone run an LS in weekend competition with other performance cars, like the dreaded BMW (318, 528, M3, M5, or whatever), 300M's, Cateras, I30t's, and all the rest? My two eldest sons are involved in these weekend competitions, and were completely familiar with the Irvine setup when I described it to them. They both compete on a regular basis (one has a Fiero (go figure) and the other drives borrowed vehicles), and have what sounds like an excellent opportunity to see how cars actually go around corners and accelerate in short distances. . . all the stuff we did in January.
Brian (or anyone else) -- does anyone run LS's in these things, and if so, how do they compete? Can we really run with 528's? Does anyone with a 300M actually try to run one around these courses? Or are we all drinking our own bathwater talking about how swell our rides are (and those 300M guys are really into this) without ever running them against the folks who do the weekend cone thing. Driving on most American highways shows one nothing about how the vehicle handles, and it could be that LS owners are like all others in that they want to own a vehicle that can do something, whether they ever attempt to do it themselves or not. I'm guilty in that I drive yearly on roads on which a mistake will launch one into rather large abysses, so am (and was certainly at Irvine) more conservative than those who are worried only about knocking cones over.
Practicality (that would be low maintenance and good fuel mileage) and real performance are the features of a vehicle to which I'm attracted. My dirt-simple LS manual gives me much of what I bought it for, but I'm still curious as to whether it can compete on a closed course with some of these other cars. It would seem that someone who bought one over the past 18 months would know. If they do, they're not posting.
I'm off on yet another trip, so won't be able to see the answers to this for awhile. . .assuming there will be any.
You hit the nail on the head. bmw 540i 6 speed manual, Audi A6 2.7T 6 speed manual. I think that the LS could compete very well with these autos for 10 to 15k less. Jim W
I washed the LS today, the first time in several months as the dealer has been doing it as it has been in several times for oil leak repairs.
On the front bumper were 2 black spots showing where the paint had started peeling away. I did not see any impact damage from another car or stone, but that does not mean it did happen. However, once the spot was started it looked like to wind had started peeling more paint away. It does not appear there is much adhesion with the paint and the black plastic of the front bumper as if I poked at the paint edge it would continue to peel away. Used the touch up paint to try and seal the paint edges and keep it from peeling further.
I just leased an LS V6 AT and have three questions.
First, the bumpers have extra chrome trim not listed on the window sticker. Is this chrome something they automatically include with certain cars (like maybe the non-Sport Package cars)?
Second, I'm wondering how any of you are living with the Sport Package suspension. I liked it on good roads but it was a little rough on broken pavement, and since it reminded me of a GTP that hammered me for three years, I passed on it. But now I think I'd like a little sharper handling, as well as a little (lot) more power. My wife really likes the car and may end up with it, freeing me for something a little more sporty.
Third, how is the manual shifter?
Even without the Sport Package, overall handling is amazing. The balance is unlike anything I've driven, and a real joy after a nose-heavy front driver. Just a little more steering effort might be nice.
One member does race his LS in Louisiana. I think he has said, and I agree, that the lack of a limited slip differential is a serious handicap in slolom/gymkhana racing. To accelerate and corner at the same time, in a controlled four wheel drift, one needs to know that the force generated is going to be maintained. If the inside rear tire lifts and then spins, all is lost. It's like shifting into neutral during the turn. On the street, this can be disasterous and deadly. If traction control is activated, it can upset what you are trying to accomplish if it involves a purposeful loss of traction. Without LSD, one has to compensate for the wheelspin by using wheelspin as you turn. TC with LSD would be great together for most drivers. But in slolom/gymkhana, it's normal for the front sensors to detect a different wheel turn rate than the rear. TC doesn't like that, but I doubt you would be competitive without inducing some difference in rotational speeds between front and rear wheels. At LS Mania, the best times on the timed course were achieved with extreme smoothness. Beware the aggressive driver who wanted to dance. TC had to be on, and the car would get upset on every power slide attempted. The course was so short - 28 seconds versus over 1 minute on the "full" course, that any speed attempt would result in vehicular dynamics guaranteeing the activation of TC. The result of aggression was not better times but wacky and wierd control problems. It was like one of those driving school cars with two sets of controls. I had one set and TC had the other. TC tried to "compensate" for my "mistakes" and competed with me for control. For my first two runs, I kept getting better times as I learned the course and got used to an automatic I had never driven before ( I still can't figure out the SST system. On the course, you wanted to prevent upshifts that could upset the car's balance. I think I had it in regular drive). On the third run, I really built speed until the TC and I wrestled for control. We were both trying to compensate for each other. What a mess! My 2000 Manual has no TC, and I do not miss it at all. Of course, the weather in San Diego is a compensating factor. But I do miss LSD on a daily basis. I'd like to break the tires loose equally on my favorite uphill cornering onramp. All I get now is a dangerous loss of control.
The "extra" chrome trim on the bumpers is the main visual clue that you do not have the sport package. The 16" wheels are the other primary clue. The sport package does not have any more power than the same engined non-sport model. I have a sport model, but I was just thinking that if I was looking now, I would seriously consider the non-sport on a lease due to excellent pricing. I do not use the sportshift, which was the main reason I picked the sport model, and the 17 inch wheels use a tire specially made for Lincoln by Firestone which has performed well, but which has almost no alternative except some $180 per tire Pirellis. I understand that is changing as Bridgestone is now supplying them, but I think you will enjoy your non sport and I am sure you paid less for it. I probably would still go for the sport as I like the monochromatic look and as little chrome as possible. Enjoy your car, most of us do.
Does the LS have something on it to keep it from revving to high while in park. If im in park and get to about 3000rpms, the car starts skipping. As far as I know, there are no problems while driving. Is this a problem?
thanx for the information. Now, the reason i was doing it. I had someone following me on the highway and they told me they saw a little smoke come out of one side when i went to pass someone. So i decided to rev it up to see if anything happened. I hope everything is ok.
Went to several dealerships on Saturday ready to purchase. I knew what color combo I wanted and how I wanted the car equiped. Found the match at a Lincoln dealership in the San Fernando Valley(Los Angeles Surburb). Drove the car on surface streets for a couple of miles. Then I took it on the freeway as suggested by many postings on this board listening for wind noise and the famous vibration. Well wind noise was not a problem on this car but.......at 70mph the streering wheel was doing the "ChubbyCheckerTwist" and the car was pulling to the right so much so that I felt like I had to fight the wheel to stay in my lane. Needless to say got off at the next off ramp, returned to the dealership and said I'm not going to buy a $38,000 car and before I drive it home it needs to go in for service. Here I was ready to spring for the car found the right color and then this. Very frustrated, ticked, and dissappointed with the entire picture.
Are you sure it wasn't the road pulling you right or an Alignment problem? Both of those are not a big deal... You can't do anything about the road, so try another road. Maybe tire pressure was causing you to track. The other could be alignment that can be fixed in about an hour. Remember your car will need to get alignments and they are routine maintenance and nothing is hurt. Now a Paint Problem would be a different story... Don't let that dismay you. Find out what the problem is. It will be worth it. The LS is a great car. I have had alot of Minor Trim issues with my car. But when It comes down to it, in over a year and a half, My dealer has resolved all of them, Mark from ford is making sure we all get the latest software for the tranny, and Jim Rogers a Ford Exec is readily available. Of course we try not to abuse their help and we are always grateful they are there ready and willing to ensure their customers are satisfied. When was the last time you talked to an Exec for a car manufacturer whose product you owned or the guy that designed your Tranny? In any case it is available here...with the LS..
All cars have their issues, The LS though has more Pros than Cons. Also one more word of Advice, make sure you get a good service Dealership, it will make life more enjoyable, and remember rule #1 and 2, 1. Don't sweat the small stuff 2. Its all small stuff...
I think we should encourage potential owners to have and hold high expectations when considering the LS. It is a great car, but is it as reliable as it should be? Is the initial and after-the-sale dealer experience what it should be? So far mine has been far less so than for either my former '96 Infiniti G20t or my current business '00 Hyundai Sonata GLS.
I want a better LS over time. Better performance. Higher quality. More reliable. I also want better dealers. Better buying experience. Better service departments. More knowledgeable salespeople and service staff. I want to be treated like someone who just spent over $35,000 on a depreciating sport luxury automobile. Not like someone buying a Focus or Sable.
No dealer should try to sell an LS or let it out for a test drive unless they know the car is aligned, the tire pressure is as specified, etc. And if a customer says there seem to be issues, the dealer should immediately have it brought into service bay to see. Maybe albert19 didn't give the dealer a chance, but the dealer had one when he first let albert19 test drive it.
Will this dealer learn? I hope Lincoln is learning and aggressively trying to fix all the niggling things that seem to afflict too many owners (heated seats, windows, 51 mph drone, AT performance, etc.).
Owners and potential owners shouldn't have to make or accept excuses. If Lincoln isn't up to the task, then owners and potential owners should look at competitors (BMW, MB, Audi, Acura, Infiniti, & Lexus). If Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura can build high quality reliable vehicles and service them well, then why can't Lincoln?
airwolf: thanks for the feedback.......I'm positive it was not the freeway pulling the LS8 to the right. This pull was very noticable. I agree with you that alignments are not a big deal...My concern is why is this happening. I'm confident the car did not come off the line with this condition ???? But if something was damaged on the front end either coming off the truck or at the dealership itself would you spend 38k or just move on to another dealership? I decided to move on ...Have another dealership using a "locator system" to find the car I want. Also, I have a pretty good relationship with this dealership that goes back some 10 years, so when they find the car I will put it thru the same paces. I also agree with you, the car has great looks, and handling, and for me enough power. Thats why I was so disappointed after I drove this particular car. One question though...was the pulsating on the steering wheel the famous wheel vibration or do you think it was more front-end related???
I quite agree with what you've said! I bought my '01 LS8 Sport 2 Jan 01 and I find that all I've had to do was compromise certain aspects of the car!( I'm the guy who was told the noise in my engine was coming from air blowing over the exhaust system) I have listened to the problems that you folks have outlined and yet you still love your cars. I can't understand that. I am leasing mine, there should not be as many issues on a $40,000 vehicle as I've seen here. I just bought my wife an "01 Infiniti QX4 and it is quieter and more solid than my LS! I'm afraid that Lincoln has missed it on this one, as far as I'm concerned. I wish you guys luck, but me, I expect a lot more than Lincoln has showed on this one. I will be getting rid of it soon and probably go with an import! I expect that I will be not asked to compromise as much! My .02 fwiw
Good points made by Airwolf1000. Additionally, have you driven the same road in another vehicle? Secondly, you should drive another LS to see if the behavior you experienced is "normal" or not. I don't think it is.
Another thing: What are you currently driving? If you are not used to the 50 series tires, you may notice a little more tendency to follow road irregularities than a higher profile tire. No way should you have the "Chubby Checker Twist," though!! The last thing I want to do is start a war between sport and non-sport owners, but you might find the non-sport to be a little more forgiving on some road surfaces. Unless you are certain you want the sport, it wouldn't hurt to drive a non-sport for comparison purposes.
Please try another LS before you totally write it off. After 30,000 miles, the LS is the best driving car overall I have ever driven. I travel in business and rent cars two or three times a month. I frequently upgrade to "premium" cars. I have yet to find anything that is a better COMBINATION of ride, handling precision, quiet, and control. I have driven cars that do one thing well but at the expense of something else. The LS is one heck of a combination, IMHO.
This board posts many messages concerning problems we have with our cars. That is good in that it helps all of us understand the nature of those problems and also helps us work with our dealer (and Lincoln) to correct them. However, the casual reader may come away with the message that the LS is a "problem" car.
Let me, for one, say that with 13,000 miles on my 2000 LS (02/00 build date), I have had no problems. That's zero as in nada. It has been a joy to drive and expect to buy it as lease end.
This isn't meant to demean others and the problems they have had. Just thought it was a good time for a reality check.
Hope to see many of you in St. Louis and Wixom. (I'm ready to take on this Cone Killer guy!)
The car I'm now driving is a Mark VIII. I've had some issues with a pulsating steering wheel since I've owned the Mark. This is why I'm a-little concerned. Mabey you can answer whether the twisting on the steering wheel is from the tire vibrations I've been reading about????
Albert, I can't relate to the vibration. Are you talking about up and down quivers or side to side shimmy? Or, are you talking kickback - Hit a bump and you feel a tug through the wheel? I have never experienced vibration (quivers) or shimmy in the LS. There is some degree of kickback. For example, if I drive over railroad tracks, I can feel it in the steering wheel more than I could with my old T-bird or with our Taurus. I don't consider that a flaw, though. If the steering were as dead as a Taurus, the control wouldn't be as good when pushing it through the twisties.
I don't mean to give you the third degree on this but I would really like to understand it. Keep us posted. :-)
On the steering wheel issue the best way I can describe it would be a quivering of the steering wheel NOT the car itself. The car was steady although pulling to the right. The interesting part about the whole thing is that the quivering started around 65 mph to about 72 mph.Any speed below the 65 was normal in relation to the steering wheel. I did not go above 70-72 mph because of the pulling. Also, when I test drove the car I did not feel any tire bouncing. This is what makes me feel asthough this may be an issue to this particular car I drove.. When my Mark was in for service a couple of times the dealership loaned me an LS8 and I never experience these issues. The loaners were mostly 2000 car's.
Warm weather has returned to Texas and the best way to cool down the car is to use the key fob to open all windows at once. Great feature. However, all y'all (<- look I'm learnin' Texan!) have posted so many messages about the rear window mechanisms falling apart that I cringe everytime I open all the windows with the key fob.
Are there any warning signs or sounds that indicate my 7/99 build LS8 is about to make a trip to the service shop for new rear window mechanisms?
Just a passing comment... if you ride hills and windy roads it pays to get your tires alligned at least once a year...I speak from sad experience. My 99 Contintental went 50K with little or no tire ware till the last service than all hell broke loose with all the inside treads going from good shape to bald...literally within a few months. I drive over mountaineous roads at freeway speeds and hit everything from potholes to the wake up bumps on the pavement. Coupled with the weight of the car all add up to disaster if you don't perform this simple preventative maintenance. I don't intend to repeat my mistake with my 01 LS sport! Remember it is only a 130 lbs or so lighter than the Continental!
... One thing that everyone seems to have missed in this discussion is the fact that although we drive a very stylish sports sedan it outweighs most of the competition... Heavy weighted frames tend to bear down on tires more..so pay em now or pay em later like I did with a $1100.00 tire bill.
You don't see a whole lot of 5 series or Mercedes at the autocrosses so it's hard to say how we would stack up against them. I do know that there is a LM dealer in Meridian, Mississippi, Bill Ethereridge, who races a BMW M-3 (because Lincoln doesn't make a MANUAL V-8 in the LS) and is a senior SCCA driving instructor(yes, he's going to be instructing at Mania 2). He drives a LS-8 non-sport and has driven it on the autocross circuit.
He says that the LS will more than keep up with a 5-series. His time was close to the 3-series times posted at the event back in February. And all his racing buddies who have driven the LS came away VERY impressed with the handling characteristics.
Finally got my steering wheel knock repaired after 3 trips to the dealership. Once to confirm the noise, a second time to diagnose where the noise actually was, and a third time to replace the upper steering column after waiting for 2 weeks for the assembly to come in. Apparently there is a bearing that the steering shaft goes through in the upper column, the bearing somehow failed and caused an annoying tapping sound. Finally repaired, now my FM radio stations are static, the car has to go in yet another time to find THAT cause. They said they checked all the harness wires in the steering column that may have been disturbed during that repair. Not too happy having to bring my car to the shop for a 6th time within 2100 miles, but, I'll keep trying.
Comments
Say you paid $35K for an LS8. The 6% sales tax is about $2,100 & 4% extended warranty would be about $1,400. Say it covers you for an additional 2 years and 25K miles. If you own the car for 6 years and 120,000 miles (averaging about 20K miles annually), the sales tax cost you 1.75 cents per mile driven. The extended warranty cost you 5.6 cents per covered mile driven.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to extended warranties. I think they can be acceptable if there is no deductible, it is from the manufacturer, the terms fit well the way you drive the car (i.e., buy time, and not miles, if you drive low miles and buy miles, not time, if you drive high miles), and it is reasonably priced. When Lincoln told me an additional two years and about 25K miles would cost about $2,400, or 9.6 cents per covered mile driven, I was aghast. That was an outrageous price--considering they get my money today and the policy doesn't kick in until after 4 years or 50K miles, whichever comes first. I shopped around to see if I could get a better no deductible price elsewhere. Not much budging.
The two extended warranties I purchased from GM were much more reasonably priced. So was the one I purchased from Infiniti.
Though if Lincoln assumes the car will break down a lot during the period, then the cost is "reasonable" (actuarially speaking), but that would reflect fact it is a trouble-prone, unreliable car that is expected to break down during the extended warranty period. I'll hit 30K miles soon. Not sure I will keep her much past 50K. I've had too many little problems already. Makes me wonder if I shouldn't have bought the extended warranty? But I can just as easily unload it in lieu of that. (That is why building a reliable car for the long haul is important in this market segment. I may go back to Infiniti.)
My point is that if I was getting my moneys worth out of an extended warranty, I would probably feel like getting rid of that vehicle as not being dependable enough for my main transportation.
We're on opposite sides of the deductible question. I'd gladly accept a higher deductible for a lower "premium". As I said before, it's the big-ticket repairs that concern me. Engine, transmission, major electrical disasters. After all, there is a Triumph TR-7 parked next to my LS in the garage, and maybe some of those Lucas gremlins might sneak over to the Lincoln some night.
The Premium interior only comes in tutone medium/light parchment and grey/charcoal. I've only seen one--the parchment--and the mats weren't in it. It did look like the carpet was the same color as my parchment interior, so I assume the mats are that color, too. If either of those colors works for you, you might see if Acton or some other dealer can find part numbers for the Premium package mats. If they're not the same as the other ones, maybe they're similar.
Jim W
The issue also has a 7 to 1.5 page count in favor of the Navigator & Blackwood to LS (counting the navigator seats in the US open page). Makes me want to put some giant off road tires on my LS so I can stay in the Lincoln family.
Jim W
Brian
As you know, it is much tougher to define "made in America" in today's global economy.
Chances are that the Honda or BMW being driven was built in the U.S. by American workers (who actually came from somewhere else at some point). Consumers now make choices based on how the car is built rather than where it was assembled.
Jim W
Thanks.
Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
IMO, a political discussion may ensue when someone says, for example, that Bill and Hillary Clinton are wide-eyed and dangerous liberal wackos. And they're liars and thieves to boot.
Pointing out that an Audi is a fine German car and the LS is a fine American car has *nothing* to do with politics.
Jim W
You're not the only one. Many have said that on this board before you. Whether LM market research believes it or not, we're out here.
Yes, I'm another one who would like to see a V8 manual LS. I did buy the 5Speed manual with the 210hp V6. And I'm not unhappy at all with it. The Duratech is getting better each time I drive it. (I have only 1900 miles)
Would I have bought a higher performing LS/manual? Yeah, probably. The 3.0 liter Duratech with VVT that's in the Jag or the V8. Either would work for me.
There are two possibilities, either/and, for LM to raise the performance bar and be competitive with current and forthcoming models from BMW,MB and maybe Audi.
Both V-6 and V-8 LSs need a Getrag six-speed to increase both performance and economy. The rear ratio in the V-8 could be maintained at 3:36; the ratio in the V-6 could be increased to the same as
in the V-6 Auto - 3:58. Both cars would have an immediate performance boost,with the V-6 0-60 time decreasing to below 7 seconds.
Six speeds will soon be as common as water, with the Ford Focus and Nissan Sentra at the low end, and the IS300 in the middle, and the MB240 already available (with the gutless V-6, unfortunately for the consumer but lucky for LM).
Cost for the six-speed to LM would be around $1500-2000 not counting R&D, but rumor has it that
Jaguar has already done it for a Manual V-8 Thunderbird for MY2003. It doesn't cost alot to make an American 540i6 if you don't get carried away with the retail price.
As for rear ratios, all are already in the parts bin and in current production. The V-6 Manual would get the heavier V-8 axles and pumpkin housing. Very little if any cost difference here.
Next step is a limited-slip pumpkin for the odd, LS only differential. Traction control schemes are fine for most drivers, but LSD is mandatory for serious street and slolom work. All the Japanese and European performance cars come with it. Don't get caught in the cones without it (I did at LS Mania). Cost to LM would be minimal and could be an option although I think all Manuals should have it from the factory.
So possible scenario #1 would be a V-8 Manual with a six-speed and LSD, keeping the current 3:36 rear. Just raise the price about 5 grand and that should cover it. Potential 540i6 owners would come a runnin...
Possible scenario # 2 would be to make the V-6 Manual a special vehicle. This would not be "just a V-6 LS with a Manual". The V-6 Manual would have a 3:58 LSD rear, a Getrag six-speed, and the Duratech V-6 ala Jag with VVT heads. This car would beat the V-8 LS in performance, justifying the Manuals existence. Jag owners wouldn't be attracted to the LS because of the Manual transmission (as if VVT drew them to any car in the first place). So the marketing idiots at Premier wouldn't lose their cool at the prospect of "VVT for the masses" because it would be used for one special low-volume model. Of course, this level of performance, after being reviewed by the car mags as the new holy grail, might change LM's idea of Manual volume sales. Katie bar the door! All this for less than $40,000!
Cost to LM would probably be less than $5,000. Off the shelf parts except for the LSD. If that's a problem to design and implement, modify the mounts on the Cobra IRS set-up and use for the LS Manual. Both rear ends are made on the same line.
It really comes down to the LS original team picking up the baton again and running to the finish line. Or should it be the "finishing line". For the LS Manual concept wasn't stillborn. It just wasn't finished. The chassis, the suspension, the aluminum panels, the battery in the trunk - all that is world class. I'd only want lighter wheels. But the drivetrain - that's where we need the polish. You can't just throw in an old non-overdrive Getrag to make "world-class". It's part of a performance "system". That tranny has compromised the end result. The lack of LSD and the compromised rear end ratio lowers performance. The lack of overdrive lowers CAFE/EPA and engine life.
Don't get me wrong. I enjoy my Manual LS. But just a little improvement at minimal cost to LM would make for a major performance improvement and a more competitive car for the near future.
Do it before you have to.
1.) I will be there!
2.) My reading of the info. on the LLSOC Site leads me to believe that there will be "Round Table" discussions at the same time the Driving
School is in full swing.
This leads me to my dumb question(s) de jour:
Are there multiple Driving School sessions?
Will we know who is scheduled for the Round Tables in advance - so we can try to schedule the one(s) of most interest?
Or am I mis-reading the plan?
Thanks,
- Ray
Who has tentatively budgeted for the purchase of 4 new tires - expecting to smoke several thousand miles worth of rubber of driving the road course!
I'm still reading every post. I responded a couple days ago about the question on the Mountaineer and LS having the same transmission.
They don't.
Mark
Since then, I've read this forum and contributed occasionally, but a question continues to trouble me. Does anyone run an LS in weekend competition with other performance cars, like the dreaded BMW (318, 528, M3, M5, or whatever), 300M's, Cateras, I30t's, and all the rest? My two eldest sons are involved in these weekend competitions, and were completely familiar with the Irvine setup when I described it to them. They both compete on a regular basis (one has a Fiero (go figure) and the other drives borrowed vehicles), and have what sounds like an excellent opportunity to see how cars actually go around corners and accelerate in short distances. . . all the stuff we did in January.
Brian (or anyone else) -- does anyone run LS's in these things, and if so, how do they compete? Can we really run with 528's? Does anyone with a 300M actually try to run one around these courses? Or are we all drinking our own bathwater talking about how swell our rides are (and those 300M guys are really into this) without ever running them against the folks who do the weekend cone thing. Driving on most American highways shows one nothing about how the vehicle handles, and it could be that LS owners are like all others in that they want to own a vehicle that can do something, whether they ever attempt to do it themselves or not. I'm guilty in that I drive yearly on roads on which a mistake will launch one into rather large abysses, so am (and was certainly at Irvine) more conservative than those who are worried only about knocking cones over.
Practicality (that would be low maintenance and good fuel mileage) and real performance are the features of a vehicle to which I'm attracted. My dirt-simple LS manual gives me much of what I bought it for, but I'm still curious as to whether it can compete on a closed course with some of these other cars. It would seem that someone who bought one over the past 18 months would know. If they do, they're not posting.
I'm off on yet another trip, so won't be able to see the answers to this for awhile. . .assuming there will be any.
Jim W
On the front bumper were 2 black spots showing where the paint had started peeling away. I did not see any impact damage from another car or stone, but that does not mean it did happen. However, once the spot was started it looked like to wind had started peeling more paint away. It does not appear there is much adhesion with the paint and the black plastic of the front bumper as if I poked at the paint edge it would continue to peel away. Used the touch up paint to try and seal the paint edges and keep it from peeling further.
Anyone else notice or experienced this?
First, the bumpers have extra chrome trim not listed on the window sticker. Is this chrome something they automatically include with certain cars (like maybe the non-Sport Package cars)?
Second, I'm wondering how any of you are living with the Sport Package suspension. I liked it on good roads but it was a little rough on broken pavement, and since it reminded me of a GTP that hammered me for three years, I passed on it. But now I think I'd like a little sharper handling, as well as a little (lot) more power. My wife really likes the car and may end up with it, freeing me for something a little more sporty.
Third, how is the manual shifter?
Even without the Sport Package, overall handling is amazing. The balance is unlike anything I've driven, and a real joy after a nose-heavy front driver. Just a little more steering effort might be nice.
At LS Mania, the best times on the timed course were achieved with extreme smoothness. Beware the aggressive driver who wanted to dance. TC had to be on, and the car would get upset on every power slide attempted. The course was so short - 28 seconds versus over 1 minute on the "full" course, that any speed attempt would result in vehicular dynamics guaranteeing the activation of TC. The result of aggression was not better times but wacky and wierd control problems. It was like one of those driving school cars with two sets of controls. I had one set and TC had the other.
TC tried to "compensate" for my "mistakes" and competed with me for control. For my first two runs, I kept getting better times as I learned the course and got used to an automatic I had never driven before ( I still can't figure out the SST system. On the course, you wanted to prevent upshifts that could upset the car's balance. I think I had it in regular drive). On the third run, I really built speed until the TC and I wrestled for control. We were both trying to compensate for each other. What a mess!
My 2000 Manual has no TC, and I do not miss it at all. Of course, the weather in San Diego is a compensating factor. But I do miss LSD on a daily basis. I'd like to break the tires loose equally on my favorite uphill cornering onramp. All I get now is a dangerous loss of control.
Mark
and how I wanted the car equiped. Found the match at a Lincoln dealership in the San Fernando Valley(Los Angeles Surburb). Drove the car on surface streets for a couple of miles. Then I took it on the freeway as suggested by many postings on this board listening for wind
noise and the famous vibration. Well wind noise was not a problem on this car but.......at 70mph
the streering wheel was doing the "ChubbyCheckerTwist" and the car was pulling to the right
so much so that I felt like I had to fight the wheel to stay in my lane. Needless to say got off at the next off ramp, returned to the dealership and said I'm not going to buy a $38,000 car and before I drive it home it needs to go in for service. Here I was ready to spring for the car found the right color and then this. Very frustrated, ticked, and dissappointed with the entire picture.
What is the scoop? Is the calibration numbers that were missing on the original TSB now available? Let me know the status.
Regards,
Victor
Are you sure it wasn't the road pulling you right or an Alignment problem? Both of those are not a big deal... You can't do anything about the road, so try another road. Maybe tire pressure was causing you to track. The other could be alignment that can be fixed in about an hour. Remember your car will need to get alignments and they are routine maintenance and nothing is hurt. Now a Paint Problem would be a different story...
Don't let that dismay you. Find out what the problem is. It will be worth it. The LS is a great car. I have had alot of Minor Trim issues with my car. But when It comes down to it, in over a year and a half, My dealer has resolved all of them, Mark from ford is making sure we all get the latest software for the tranny, and Jim Rogers a Ford Exec is readily available. Of course we try not to abuse their help and we are always grateful they are there ready and willing to ensure their customers are satisfied. When was the last time you talked to an Exec for a car manufacturer whose product you owned or the guy that designed your Tranny? In any case it is available here...with the LS..
All cars have their issues, The LS though has more Pros than Cons. Also one more word of Advice, make sure you get a good service Dealership, it will make life more enjoyable, and remember rule #1 and 2, 1. Don't sweat the small stuff 2. Its all small stuff...
Regards,
Airwolf1000
I want a better LS over time. Better performance. Higher quality. More reliable. I also want better dealers. Better buying experience. Better service departments. More knowledgeable salespeople and service staff. I want to be treated like someone who just spent over $35,000 on a depreciating sport luxury automobile. Not like someone buying a Focus or Sable.
No dealer should try to sell an LS or let it out for a test drive unless they know the car is aligned, the tire pressure is as specified, etc. And if a customer says there seem to be issues, the dealer should immediately have it brought into service bay to see. Maybe albert19 didn't give the dealer a chance, but the dealer had one when he first let albert19 test drive it.
Will this dealer learn? I hope Lincoln is learning and aggressively trying to fix all the niggling things that seem to afflict too many owners (heated seats, windows, 51 mph drone, AT performance, etc.).
Owners and potential owners shouldn't have to make or accept excuses. If Lincoln isn't up to the task, then owners and potential owners should look at competitors (BMW, MB, Audi, Acura, Infiniti, & Lexus). If Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura can build high quality reliable vehicles and service them well, then why can't Lincoln?
condition ???? But if something was damaged on the front end either coming off the truck or at the dealership itself would you spend 38k or just move on to another dealership? I decided to move on ...Have another dealership using a "locator system" to find the car I want. Also, I have a pretty good relationship with this dealership that goes back some 10 years, so when they find the car I will put it thru the same paces. I also agree with you, the car has great looks, and handling, and for me enough power. Thats why I was so disappointed after I drove this particular car. One question though...was the pulsating on the steering wheel the famous wheel vibration or do you think it was more front-end related???
I have listened to the problems that you folks have outlined and yet you still love your cars. I can't understand that. I am leasing mine, there should not be as many issues on a $40,000 vehicle as I've seen here.
I just bought my wife an "01 Infiniti QX4 and it is quieter and more solid than my LS! I'm afraid that Lincoln has missed it on this one, as far as I'm concerned. I wish you guys luck, but me, I expect a lot more than Lincoln has showed on this one. I will be getting rid of it soon and probably go with an import! I expect that I will be not asked to compromise as much!
My .02 fwiw
Another thing: What are you currently driving? If you are not used to the 50 series tires, you may notice a little more tendency to follow road irregularities than a higher profile tire. No way should you have the "Chubby Checker Twist," though!! The last thing I want to do is start a war between sport and non-sport owners, but you might find the non-sport to be a little more forgiving on some road surfaces. Unless you are certain you want the sport, it wouldn't hurt to drive a non-sport for comparison purposes.
Please try another LS before you totally write it off. After 30,000 miles, the LS is the best driving car overall I have ever driven. I travel in business and rent cars two or three times a month. I frequently upgrade to "premium" cars. I have yet to find anything that is a better COMBINATION of ride, handling precision, quiet, and control. I have driven cars that do one thing well but at the expense of something else. The LS is one heck of a combination, IMHO.
Bruce
Let me, for one, say that with 13,000 miles on my 2000 LS (02/00 build date), I have had no problems. That's zero as in nada. It has been a joy to drive and expect to buy it as lease end.
This isn't meant to demean others and the problems they have had. Just thought it was a good time for a reality check.
Hope to see many of you in St. Louis and Wixom.
(I'm ready to take on this Cone Killer guy!)
since I've owned the Mark. This is why I'm a-little concerned. Mabey you can answer whether the twisting on the steering wheel is from the tire vibrations I've been reading about????
I don't mean to give you the third degree on this but I would really like to understand it. Keep us posted. :-)
Bruce
I came to the LS from a Mark8 as well. Had a bit of front end vibration right before I bought new tires coupla months before I sold the car.
Have you had the Mark's tires spun-balanced?
Are there any warning signs or sounds that indicate my 7/99 build LS8 is about to make a trip to the service shop for new rear window mechanisms?
... One thing that everyone seems to have missed in this discussion is the fact that although we drive a very stylish sports sedan it outweighs most of the competition... Heavy weighted frames tend to bear down on tires more..so pay em now or pay em later like I did with a $1100.00 tire bill.
Bill
He says that the LS will more than keep up with a 5-series. His time was close to the 3-series times posted at the event back in February. And all his racing buddies who have driven the LS came away VERY impressed with the handling characteristics.
Brian