I wouldn't be surprised if Consumer Union's 'Not Recommended' rating (due to perceived reliablity issues) is hurting LS sales.
CU's automobile reliability ratings are very poorly organized and inconsistent, but a lot of readers don't know this. I think they should completely change the way they survey this data and the way they haphazardly draw conclusions.
Joe: I've actually felt tire vibration through the body of a car. The reason why I asked about the steering wheel is because I'm getting ready to buy an 01 LS8. Last week I drove one...color combo, equiped the way I wanted sport pkg etc, got it up on the freeway and at 68 mph the steering wheel was pulsating and the car was pulling to the right. The pulling was pretty severe so I ruled out the slope of the freeway.. The car had 4 miles on it!Tomorrow I'm going to test drive another ls8 sport package. The dealer I bought my Mark VIII from used their locator system and did a dealer trade. Well see tommorrow. My intension is to drive about 20 miles on the freeway at different speeds to see if I experience this vibration. I'm hoping for the best because I really like the car. Not quite as fast as my Mark but handles much better.
I believe I read some time ago about someone here adding a REAL trunk illumination device. I would appreciate it if I could get info on the wiring. The only way I can get my new light to work is to disconnect the factory light. I have the "hot" wired to the fuse box and the ground to the plug on the factory light. Both lights won't work simultaneously. I do understand that the trunk switch is a ground interrupt and not a "hot" one. Thanks, Michael
Maybe the vibration is killing LS sales. Yesterday was the first time in several months that I took a long trip (400+ miles). Unfortuntaly, the good old vibration really became a pain during the trip. At this point (after 5 trips to to the dealer for rebalancind, rotating etc.) I'm convinced that there is a design or manufacturing defect in the LS. Here's why:
1. The dealer replaced the Firestones with Goodyears, the vibration is still the same, peaks at the same road speed (71 MPH) and has the same frequency of vibration.
2. The frequency of the vibration does not change with road speed. If it was strictly a tire or wheel problem the frequency of the vibration should change with road speed.
3. The hotter the temperature is (is was 90+ yesterday) and the longer I drive the more wide the range of road speeds are that I can feel / hear the vibration. By the end of the trip the vibration was just as bad at 60 MPH as any other speed.
4. The vibration moves around the car and changes with the load, the heavier the LS is loaded the less the vibration can felt or heard.
5. I got the rare change (in the croweded northeast) to get my LS up to 100. The vibration does not get any worse as road speed increases. If it really was a tire / wheel problem the vibration should get worse the faster you go.
6. I hear as well as feel the vibration, it's like the entire unbody is resonating.
7. Some passengers in my LS have noticed the vibration and pointed it out without me saying anything about the vibration. Other passengers do not feel of hear any vibration and have just looked at me funny when I try to point it out to them. This leads me to belive that the number of LS's that have the vibration is higher than you may think. People who are more sensitive to low frequency noises and vibrations (~30 Hz) will be much more likly to feel, hear and complain about the vibration.
My conclusion: The LS has a unibody resonance that is excited by the slightest amount of tire or wheel vibration. I've never had a car that had a vibration like this and never had to go through so much screwing around with the tires.
The deal on the S-Type is $1,750 down, $499/month for 39 months. No bank fee, no security deposit. Includes power memory package and moon roof. Free scheduled maintenance as well as free pick-up and delivery AND loaner car for scheduled maintenance. Purchase option $22,633. Transp. included. MSRP=$46,250
Sounds like a good deal to me. The only "catch" is it's 10K miles/year, .20/mile thereafter. Even still, I haven't seen anything approaching this for the LS. I've seen the base LS for $399/month, but with some ridiculous down payment, like $3500 or so. And the base car stickers at something like 12 or 13K less than this S-Type. Based on current sales figures and favorable residuals, perhaps Lincoln should start rethinking their marketing strategy.
Based on crowd reaction to the X-Type at NY Int'l auto show, I have to agree with you. I never even got to sit on the driver's side, because the lines were too long and I felt a personal obligation to be available at the LS exhibit. Couldn't get near this thing. Between price, AWD, standard equipment level and availability of 3.0L/Sport package, the LS is going to take a hit. Ford might be stealing sales from themselves with this one. Interior space and comfort(at least in front) are comparable to S-type.
A shot in the arm is definitely needed and they need to start with the advertising campaign, which lately seems to be MIA. The last TV ad I saw was about 2 months ago and while it was an improvement, I haven't seen anything since. This car has been on the market for almost 2 years now. Others who worked the NY auto show will back me up here, but there is no way, at this point in time, there should be the number of people asking if this was a Continental-INCLUDING friends of mine. I saw a Broadway show last week and there was an LS ad in the Playbill. Totally lame! It would a good cure for insomnia. I just don't understand Ford when it come to this. They did it with the last-gen T-Bird, the Mark 8 and are doing it now with the Cougar, while other mfrs. are introducing new coupes to the market.
Some of the improvements you mentioned may be, or should be, on the way. They cannot rest on their laurels with this car. The market moves too fast these days.
If the original trunk light is activated by ground interrupt, couldn't one wire the hot side of the new trunk lamp to the trunk battery (using an in-line fuse, of course) and wire the ground side to the ground of the original switch ? If the load is too much, one could use a small relay to activate the second lamp. ??? Then one could put a real lamp in there!
This can be a complex problem. A tire/wheel assembly can be out of static balance, out of dynamic balance, out of round, or suffer from various manifistations of instantaneous rolling resistance variability, or combinations of the above, all of which can be affected by the suspension characteristics of a given design.
I once bought a new corvette whose steering wheel would shimmy with a 3-4 inch back and forth motion but the car rode very smooth. It drove me nuts and took about 6 months to get resolved. Even at that, I had to solve the problem myself. A *very* brief synopsis follows: after complaining to the dealer and getting nowhere, the regional engineering rep was called in for another round of getting nowhere. I was provided with everything from "they all do that" to many balance sessions and new tires, all of which changed the shimmy in various degrees for better or worse but never eliminating it. Next, the Goodyear rep came down from Akron and gave it a go. I was directed to the "best Goodyear facility in Houston" where I received another set of tires and balancing act which actually made the problem worse. They even installed two complete sets of what they called "ramp tested" tires which I was told were tires pulled off the assembly line and run through a battery of special tests where only the finest tires survived which were then made available to racing organizations or folks who had special requirements. I had to make several visits to that dealer which was totally on the other side of Houston from where I lived in Deer Park and I was growing weary of the repeated useless trips.
I decided to see what I could find out for myself and found a book on pneumatic tire engineering technology in the tech library where I work at the Johnson Space Center. (you might wonder why a book on tires was to be found in a "space technology library" - don't forget that the lunar rover first had tires and then the shuttle, and they were pretty harsh environments and we didn't know a whole lot about tires for those applications). Anyhow, I learned that there was a characteristic known as instantaneous rolling resistance that affected tire operation more or less depending upon it's design and construction - radial or bias, belt design, material and placement, rubber compound, clamshell or sectional mold fabrication, etc.
For our down to earth application, I concluded that the main player was the mold type. Goodyear (and most if not all other manufacturers in the US) were using sectional molds at that time. This is a mold in 6 or 8 sections that sorta spread out from the center. A worker would then lay up The tire components in the center of the mold and then the mold sections were collapsed around the lay-up and the tire vulcanized at that point. you can see the parting lines on the tire's sidewalls on this type of construction. There is a lot of opportunity for the various pieces to slip out of alignment in this type of process which results in the belt not being totally symetrrical around the tread area or more or less rubber and any point around the periphery. This is what drives the instantaneous rolling resistance of the tire - imagine the more or less rubber at one point and/or the belt being more or less on-center causing the tire to roll a little slower or faster give the same applied force. Now imagine your two front tires, as they roll down the road, wanting to roll a little faster or slower than the other - think of steering a tracked vehicle - but in reverse. What happens is that the tires resistance to rolling at some point around it's rotation compared to the other wants to translate back through the steering mechanism (feedback) and depending upon the steering system design, some of this feedback turns into the tires wanting to drive the steering wheel rather than the other way around.
If you had a system that heavily damped out such motion because it couldn't make it back through the reverse side of a worm gear arrangement, you would never know all that was going on in your tires. However, in a "sporty" car with tighter, closer coupled steering (such as rack and pinion) which design in more feedback than a land yacht has or wants, these forces are felt in the steering wheel being driven by the tires in that back and forth shimmy thet many folks are experiencing. Even if you don't notice this as a problem, I would bet that if you drive down the road with your hands just barely on the wheel, you could see this happening to a very small degree...it's just not noticable under ordinary circumstances.
In a clam shell mold, the top of the mold lifts out of the way while the bottom remains stationary. The worker lays up the tire's components in the bottom mold where the process tends to minimize any shifting of components. Then the top mold piece is closed and the tire is vulcanized at that point. You can see the tire's parting lines running along the tires circumferance in the center of the tread area on a tire made this way. At the time, the only tire constructed this way that I knew of and that I'd be interested in was the Michelin who, if I'm not mistaken, invented the process. Since neither Chevrolet or Goodyear were inclined to replace the OEM tires with Michelins, I struck a deal where they gave me 4 new unmounted tires which I sold and used the proceeds to buy a set of Michelins and then let them change the michelins for the Goodyear ramp tested tires to give to somebody else. Problem solved.
(what really hurts in all this is that after the unbelievable hassle, 90% of which I left out 'cause this is long enoug already, is that about 3 months later while on the way to work, another corvette pulled out right in front of from a side street - I was doing about 65mph. I could see I was going to centerpunch him right in the drivers door so I put mine in a sideways skid and slammed into him broadside more evenly distributing the impact forces. Saved his life but both cars were totalled - rained fiberglass at that intersection for a week...
Luckily I haven't had to contend with an "unfixable" balance problem but from what I learned in this exercise I can see where all kinds of symptoms resulting from any number of wheel assembly balance issues can show up as anything from steering wheel shake (not shimmy - that's different) which is most likely the place you feel certain types of vibration the easiest, body shake if the tire's vibration is resonating with the body, to localized wheel shake and obvious wear to the tire itself...it can be quite a complex subject.
I said all that to say this...shimmy and vibration ain't all that easy to fix sometimes if the bits and pieces on your particular vehicle are all lined up within their tolerances but conspiring against you. It's not any one thing nor is it necessarily indicative of a poor design or execution of that design...it's reality. Take it slow, do your homework, and you will get it sort
Noticed in today's Omaha World-Herald Motor Section that one Lincoln dealer is advertising '01 LS lease at $349/mo w/$2,999 down, for 24 months, and 12k mi/yr. BMW dealer next door to him advertising '01 BMW 530i at $599/mo w/$2,950 down, for 36 months and 10k mi/yr. No S-type advertised, but Jag XJ8 at $799/mo w/$1,000 down, 36 months & 10k mi/yr.
Xwray: Thanks for the long discussion on tires. I was aware of the different types of tire molds. I can feel the vibration in the steering wheel sometimes but not always. I belive that the vibration is tire / wheel induced but I also belive that there is a resnonace in the LS that makes it more apparent than it should be. I had the dealer shop forman go for a ride with me and he agreed that there was a vibration. After putting the Goodyears on which didn't solve the problem. The regional Lincoln Field Engineer test drove my LS, which was arranged through Jim Roger's assistant. Unfortuntely when the appointment with the engineer was set up I was under the impression that he & I would go for a ride. Instead when I left my LS off on Monday I was told that the engineer would not be in until Wednesday. The engineer's conclusion was "there were no vibrations or noises that were out of spec." So I have to conclude that Lincoln expects us to live with the vibration, since I felt & heard it, the shop forman felt & heard it but the Lincoln engineer didn't.
Scottc8: There have been vibration discussions on this forum almost since day one. There was someone who advised me a year ago to get Michelins for the reasons xwray gives, that LS owner said the Michelins solved his vibration problem. Of couse there's silly me who somehow was expecting that the dealer and Lincoln would be willing and able to fix the problem under warranty without me having to shell out any $$.
Thanks for all the info on steering wheel vibration. Spent $240.00 on replacing my Firestones with new ones,still the same problem. am going to a Ford dealer in Tarpon Springs to have my tires balanced by a load bearing balance machine. If this does not work,and my car is leased the will offer me a deal on a new lease since I have the car almost two years,and I have had it in about a dozen times for this problem.,and many others
the new Car and Driver has a XKR modified by Jaguar's Special Vehicle Operations. Get this:
Tweaked the SC 4.0L - now puts out 410 hp at 6200 rpm and 420 lb-ft at 3600 rpm Bolted to a Tremec T-56 six speed manual with a 3.69 LSD With S-type (LS) rear suspension.
Estimated 0-60: 4.9 seconds
Quote: "But there appears to be a real chance that the manual-gearbox package and the cosmetic changes might eventually surface. Even if it cost 10 grand, that six-speed would be worth every penny."
Just to add another datapoint... After a 4-wheel rotation our LS-8 Sport picked up a slight vibration (at 90). I took it in for a high-speed balance job. Problem solved.
Akirby - Thanks for the info on the Jag. And to think the English guys at Jag were using that crude non-world class T-56 !!! But look at the great rear end ratio the six-speed allows - 3:69 and LSD! I don't think it would cost anywhere near 10 grand for that set-up. Tranny,gears and LSD unit should retail for under $4,000. In the LS Manual, it should cost no more than that for the six-speed Getrag and rear gears. The LSD set-up for the LS will take some engineering. I think it would be less expensive to adapt another proven Ford LSD pumpkin to the LS IRS rear, like the 8.8" unit. Rumor has it that the Jag team has already done preenginnering a 3.9 with a Manual tranny for the T-Bird. It's just not that hard when you've already got the Manual in a DEW98 platform. The T-Bird is a Ford and Jag isn't an LM so both marques don't have to be restrained by the definition of "American Luxury". LM tells us to make our own interpretation of "American Luxury" but Corporate thinks "American Luxury" stops where "German Performance" begins. Is everybody afraid to take on the Bavarian bear? It woudn't take much to add "American Performance" to "American Luxury". By the way, Blue Oval News got a copy of a mfg cost sheet leaked out of Ford that showed the cost of VVT was about $120 per cylinder head. We are not talking about very much for a significant, internal, non-bolt-on or aftermarket performance increase in the 30-40hp range. Real value for the dollar.
Just had the service done at Jack Ross LM (Scottsdale Rd facility)...in and out in an hour...my '01 LS V8 Sport has had no problems to date other than a replacement of the OAT sensor. I skipped getting the transmission reflash as mine seems to work ok and I've never noticed a delayed downshift at 20mph. If I had one complaint that annoys me: the car could use a better sounding stereo for its price point. My brother's '01 Deville has the base Deville stereo (not the upgraded Bose) which is far superior to the Alpine Sport in my LS. Otherwise, my LS seems to be getting better with age...
Checked out the new '02 Mountaineer while I waited. Excellent fit and finish, very impressive vehicle for the money.
My LS8 Sport has been in shop since Thursday for both 30,000 miles service and a couple maladies. Dealer called me Saturday morning saying he needed me to bring the loaner Continental in so their insurance adjuster could check it out for hail damage from a storm a couple weeks ago. Forced me to drive into Omaha and waste 2 hours on a rainy Saturday. (I did get 'em to fill the Conti's tank up, but that was it.)
While there I had nothing better to do than look at cars. Dealer had 3 brand new '01 Audi A6 2.8s Quattros in the service area. Stickered at $40,600 and were both priced & optioned like my loaded LS8. Absolutely no comparison on the interior materials and details. A6 interior is rightly considered best in class. Look and felt ab fab! Leather, plastic/wood, metal combo just works perfectly. Loved the large, well-shaped trunk with the non-intrusive hinges. Doors, trunk, and hood open & close better than bank vaults. After spending just 10 minutes in the A6, I know I'll test drive one well before buying anything in future.
As for the Conti, have put about 350 miles on it. Overpriced piece of junk. Feels and drives just like a loaded Sable, though with a much better engine. Engine is about all it has. Economy pretty decent, too. But, it ain't fun to drive, isn't good looking, & materials appear cheap. And they have the gall to put a $40,000 plus sticker on it! No wonder they get discount $8-10,000 off!!! Made me ashamed to be a Lincoln owner.
I have not been here for a while, but I bring bad news with my return. The wife and 2 daughters were stopped at a red light behind a school bus when out of no where a 1-ton telephone truck(we will leave the company name out of this, am meeting with my attorney tomorrow) crashes into the rear of our 2000 LS. The wife had just been released by her DR. from a head on collision last year(what do you know, another commercial truck crossing the median!) and is back at the Orthopedic Surgeon with this injury. ? Both girls in back seat(all seat belts) are OK, but the LS? $4,000 plus damage to rear/trunk. The telephone man claimed he had glanced down at a piece of paper and let his foot "slip" off the brake, letting the truck "idle" forward until stopped by my LS. Not a scratch on the truck, but the damage to the Lincoln was devastating. Oh well, another reason to lease a car like this, I would not want it for 10 years after this repair. And with the bozo drivers in this Banana Republic(Miami), leaving your driveway is all you have to do to put yourself at risk.
By the way, the loaner is a 2001 Deville. the wife hates the "boat", but boy what an engine. The power of the northstar in the LS with a 6-speed would give a 540i a run for it's money.
Smwls8 - Sorry about the rearender. My beloved 5 speed Cressida had the same fate last year. You are spot-on - it seems some of the best engines are limited to Auto Granny cars with FWD. The age of the drivers and the characteristics of the cars guarantee that the drivetrains are essentially wasted as far as performance potential. The Ford Intech (Conti,Navigator and Cobra 4 valve versions of the Romeo modular design) and Northstar were once compared in one of the mags. The Northstar was chosen as having the best bottom end and the Intech as having the best top end (valvetrain). Both spectacular engines. In quantity production, the cost to manufacture is probably only a small amount more than the 3.9, and in both cases, the marketing guys think it's too "premium" for the masses. Why not make it optional in other cars? Remember the 60's? You might have 5 engine choices in the same chassis. The Roadrunner offered 383,440, or Hemi, not even counting the carb variations - 4 bbl,6 pack,ram-air. I know - EPA certs on all combos now would be expensive. But maybe you could do different variations on the DEW98 brands. Oh well, the old guys with money can have their engines, but they don't know enough to have any fun. Maybe the Marauder will do it right - the Intech and RWD!
Ref V6,Sport, Aug 99 build, 25,000 miles Battery dead after 8 days in the garage. Won't hold a charge. Dealer to look at it tomorrow. Hope its just a bad battery. Would appreciate comments from others that have had battery problems.
I have not had any problems with the battery in my LS, but my prior car, a Seville STS went through batteries like windshield washer fluid. I must have replaced 4 or 5 while I had it and the consensus among the service guys was that batteries nowadays really stink. It is probably a combination of extremely hot engine compartments and high demands with all the equipment that keeps running when you stop the engine, but it is ridiculous. So is the "pro rated 5yr guarantee", which basically means that after the first year you are buying a new battery at list price (as though most people pay list price for auto accessories), and getting a discount based on how bad the battery was. I ended up switching from AC Delco to Diehard but it was the same deal there. I have had problems with my daughters car battery also. I just think we will have to wait until they go to 42 volts or whatever they are talking about and see if the technology is better. Right now it sure is poor.
Your LS weighs in at almost two tons. It seems unlikely that a vehicle only a little over half the weight of your LS could cause so much damage by 'idle-ing forward' into you when the driver's foot slipped off the brake (unless he was 'idle-ing' along at 40 MPH).
If my memory is correct, there is a known problem were the battery cable is shorting were it goes through the frame. I think it only effected early builds. I'd have the dealer check into it. I am positive someone who has had this problem will fill you in on the details.
Check out the 6/01 issue of Car & Driver, comparison test of BMW M3 vs MB CLK55 AMG. The MB uses a large 5.4L V-8 that puts out 342 hp and a whopping 376 lb-ft of torque. BMW uses a small 3.2L I-6 that puts out only 333 hp and a mere 262 lb-ft of torgue. The MB uses a 5-speed automatic and the BMW uses a 6-speed manual. MB and BMW weigh 3,520 & 3,440 pounds, respectively. Guess which one out-accelerates the other? The power sapping automatic and gear-impaired MB loses out. BMW goes 0-60 mph .3 secs quicker, 0-100 mph .4 secs quicker, and 0-150 mph 1 sec quicker. BMW gets to 1/4 mile .2 secs quicker.
Stanny1: You'll love what C&D says about the I-6's performance getting to 8,000 RPM redline.
Oh, why can't Lincoln put a 6-speed manual into the LS8???
Sorry guys and gals, but I just don't get it. On one hand we seem to have this sudden swell of "demand" for a six speed V8 LS. Yet beside myself, Stanny, Albert K and a couple of others (with apologies for momentary lapse of memory), most of the particpants on this board have opted for the automatic. Nothing wrong with the automatic, but it's not a stick.
I keep hearing justifications like, "I couldn't test drive one". Well guess what, neither could we, but we ordered one anyways. "My local dealer didn't have one in stock and that would mean I would have to wait". Well guess what, we were willing to wait, and IMHO, it was well worth it!
There is no doubt in my mind that those of us who "really" do want a stick and are willing to put our money where our mouths are, are in the extreme minority. I am quite confident that if there were more people that "really" wanted a stick, sales of sticks wouldn't be as miniscule as they are and the bean-counters would give the go-ahead for the mythical LS8-6M. But until they see the evidence of such, forget it guys, it ain't gonna happen.
I want to thank Jim Rogers for the honesty in his statement that it is extremely unlikely (my words, not his)that we'll see an LS8-6M and I think that the idea of a beefed up V6 is certainly a more realistic expectation when all the factors of development, EPA, durability and of course a nod from Martha Stewart and Ann Landers are factored in to the mix.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if sticks are discontinued all together by the time I'm ready to turn mine back in off of lease in time for the 2003 model year. Bottom line is, if you "really" wanted a stick, you should have bought one.
Oh, and as a gear-head, I'm really not convinced I need another gear. Technical gear ratio specs aside, I'm quite happy with 5 speeds thank you very much.
F150- half-ton, C 1500 F250- 3/4 ton, C 2500 F350- one-ton, C 3500
The Truck in question was a Chevrolet C3500, utility body with a bucket. Real bumper made of steel, not plastic and foam. I still don't believe the "foot slipped off the brake and I must have idled into her?" story. But, alas, that is what attorney's are for.....
Stop being so not understanding. I am sorry but I am not about to lay down 35+ Large ones down without test driving one. Neither are most typical americans..We live in a try before you buy society. If you didn't thats your choice.. I Tried, I went to 8 Dealerships in 3 Metropolitan areas in two States and I did not find one. Oh that really makes sense. Base the production of the V8 LS 6 Speed manual on the sales of a non-existent/difficult to access(To dealerships or to the market) car. With logic like that I know where we were going to end up. I guess we knew it from the beginning. They were not going to make it...Sad very sad.
P.S. Buy something like a house without taking a look at it....Just go off the specs 4 bedroom 2 Bath 2 Car Garage. Don't go look at it... Do that just like your car purchase....Put your money where your talk is at do that...Stop acting so manly. I am sorry but you really offended me and my intelligence and probably all of us that did want to buy a manual. Also Don't forget in Early 2000 you could not buy a V6 LS with a Moonroof... Cause there was a moonroof shortage and only V8's were getting the moonroof or something like that. That is why I opted for the V8. No test drive and a over $30K car without a moonroof that is a showstopper for most americans. Make sure you understand what you are talking about before you go shooting off, please.. I do not need a reply, just letting you know why I purchased a V8. It was due to decisions out of my control and in Lincoln's/Lincoln Dealership hands.... I am the first to pat Lincoln on the Back, and defend them about the LS but also point out the shortcomings.. We need to be patient and understanding but that only can go so long.
Kinny - I agree. We don't really need a six-speed Manual. We could do with a five speed Manual with fifth being an overdrive gear. We are presently saddled with a low 3:07 rear and 3000rpm at 75mph because of the lack of an overdrive high gear in the tranny. Getrag's practice in their five-speeds is to have a 1:1 fifth. Toyota and many other Japanese mfgs use an overdrive fifth gear. This enables the use of a deeper rear ratio while increasing mpg, decreasing wear and NVH. When the Focus and Nissan SE-R can have Getrag six-speeds, why can't we? How about a .70 fifth gear and a 3:58 rear similar to the gearing of the V-6 auto LS? This combination should out-accelerate the V-8 auto LS in 0-60. Add VVT and LSD and you have an honest performance vehicle.
Kinny is Right! I am very delighted with my Manual LS (although I would appreciate an OD fifth gear). I too was unable to locate one for a test drive as no dealer in the greater Cincinnati area had a manual on their lots, but I ordered one anyway and waited for it to be built. Not being able to test drive a manual is not the deal killer some would imply. I was able to test drive both V6 and V8 automatics so I knew what the ride and handling were like and knew I could do better when I was in total control; thus I was quite comfortable making the purchase in a so called sight unseen manner. Sorry Airwolf, but I find your "concerns" unfounded. Anyone who truly wants a manual is quite capable of making a well informed decision even if he does not personally get to sit in one. And JRoger has repeatedly said in this very forum that anyone desiring to test drive a manual ought to contact him and arrangements would be made. There is no excuse!
I couldn't imagine spending $35K without taking a thorough test drive. And I'd want to compare the LS6 Sport manual to its LS6 Sport & LS8 Sport auto counterparts. When I stopped by the big Omaha Lincoln dealer Saturday I asked them if they have ever seen the dealer order an LS6 manual. They couldn't remember seeing one on their lot.
Key reason for LS8 manual is that the LS6 manual has too much weight fighting too little motor. Quite unimpressive performance figures. Bested by LS8 auto. You take the likely depreciation & resale hit but don't get any real performance enhancement? Hard to justify buying an LS6 manual in real world. Guess that may be why most automotive publications have done their tests on the LS8 Sport, including all the long-term tests I've seen (MT, C&D, R&T). The LS6 manual just doesn't offer enough performance. But, hey, I'm all in favor of serious output enhancements to the V-6 if it will translate into real improvements in acceleration. Also enhance the manual by making it a 6-speed. If Focus, Sentra, etc. have one, how could you seriously justify not in an LS6?
At least Jag has it right in new X-type. You can get the manual with the bigger motor. Too bad they skimped and went only 5-speed manual.
Given the 114 lb-ft of torque advantage of the MB & its huge 5.4L motor, and the weight similarities, not sure how much to make of the final drive ratios differences (3.62 vs 2.82). However, think you are leaving out one minor (?) difference, the additional gear in the BMW's 6-speed vs the MB's 5-speed allows for differences in individual gear ratios.
Notice how the last two gear ratios are the same. The 6-speed allows BMW to make 1st, 2nd, and 3rd numerically higher. Even when talking only about manuals, as the chart shows above, a 6-speed is prefered.
Of course, the aggressive gearing takes its toll on EPA estimates. Big MB rated 17/24. Smaller BMW at 16/24. Can someone explain to me how this big MB AMG with 342 hp/376 lb-ft torque gets same EPA estimate as LS8? It is actually rated better than my '00 LS8 Sport (17/23). Come on Lincoln! Is the LS8 engine/tranny combo that inefficient?
First of all it was not my intention to insult you Airwolf1000. If that's the case then I apologize. My point is that until there is evidence of demand, it is very unlikely you are going to see the LS8-6M.
Is it the dealer's fault? I don't know. They are in business to make money and whether their inventory decisions are based on real or imagined local demand, they are only going to stock what they think they can sell. As it turned out, the last time I was at my dealer, he has a 5M in his stock, but I'm sure this was based on their experience with my sale as the first 5M they had sold. BTW, I believe it was the first LS they sold as well.
Is it Lincoln's fault? I don't know. They spent who knows how much money to develop this car and every single LS ad I have ever seen on TV has always shown the 5 speed manual. Looking at the 2000 brochure, the 5 speed is clearly displayed in a double full-page spread. While I haven't been to any auto shows lately, I do think that they should at least have one on display, (however, I have seen what line-ups of pimply faced 16 year olds can do to a stick equipped car on display as they pretend to run through the gear like Jackie Stewart)but the fact is I think that those who are really interested in the LS equipped with a 5 speed stick are probably aware of it. Does the average person on the street know that you can get a 5M LS? Of course not, but then again, they are not looking for this type of car.
As far as comparing the purchase of an LS6-5M without driving one to buying a house from plans (which by the way is an extremely common practice), I don't think they are as related as you imply. Of course I drove an LS before I ordered mine. I drove an LS 8 Sport, and based on my experience both with the test drive and as a long time car enthusiast, I was very confident that the car had the what I was looking for. I don't find it that big of a stretch to determine how the same car (<> a few pounds and 42 HP) is going to drive with a stick.
While many seem to feel that the LS-6 may be under-powered, I would say that I personally would not buy one with an automatic, as it would not provide the same experience for my style of driving. However, there is no doubt in my mind that the "seat-of-the-pants" feel and driver control of a 5 speed manual is much more satisfying than the same car with an automatic.
There is no way I would trade the thrill of running through the gears in the LS6-5M for the 8's extra 42 HP. But that's just me. Horsepower isn't everything.
Sorry, G-man, you're not sucking me into this never-ending argument again. Let's just look at the facts. The final drive ratio is a product of the tranny gear ratio times the rear axle ratio. So here are the actual ratios at the rear wheels:
Up through the first four gears the M3 rear wheels are turning 3 times for every 2 of the CLK55 at the same engine RPM. I'll let you figure out if this makes a difference in acceleration.
Now that it's starting to get hot again, I still see the OAT indicator reading about 7-8 degrees too hot. This was after having driven it approximately 20 minutes so that sensor should have been reporting accurate temperature.
Has anyone else had a problem with higher indicated OAT than what is the actual OAT. I saw that there is a TSB but for indicating lower than actual. 2000 V8 Sport.
My 00 V8 Sport does the same thing, on hot days the outside temp reads about 7-8 deg high at least. I haven't made up my mind if it's wrong or if it's reading higher temp since it's on the road with other cars raising the temp, etc. Still, it reads high, even when I think it shouldn't (single car on the road with enough speed to cool the car well with airflow over the sensors). My 94 SHO also did exactly the same thing, it seems to be a characteristic of Ford external temp sensors. Never bothered me enough to see if it was fixable.
They can really read high in summer traffic, but I always thought the additional increase over normal was real, due to traffic and heat trapped between the cars and road.
No one is trying to suck anyone into anything. My basic point, which I believe is proven by both the M3 as well as LS6 manual is that (a) a manual tranny is much more efficient than an automatic and will provide superior acceleration and economy (all other things held constant, including CD, weight, gearing, etc.), and (b) having more gears, properly spaced to take account of the engine's power curve, is more efficient than fewer gears and will provide superior acceleration.
Both the smaller engined and lower engine outputted (if there is such a word?) M3 and LS6 manuals either outaccelerate or essentially equally accelerate the larger engined and higher output automatics (i.e., MB AMG and LS8 5-speed automatics), with limited impact on fuel economy.
Then translate that into an LS8 manual. I think it would make a huge difference to potential buyers, myself included. Without an LS8 manual, preferably 6-speed, methinks a Jag X-type 3.0L 5-speed manual would be a great replacement for my LS8 Sport. But I'd rather stay in the LS8.
It is just my opinion, but I am sure that L-M must have at least one survey team on it's payroll. I am equally sure that they have determined that a V-8 manual would sell in quantities that would ensure that the hapless person who made the decision to offer that option in an LS-8 would be out looking for work. We are beating a dead horse. Even here, on what is admittedly an enthusiast's page there is little unanimity on the appeal of that combination. I am a firm believer that everyone should own a stick and a convertible once in their lifetime, so that they know why they are glad they don't have it anymore. Of course, the fact that I live in a highly urban area with terrible traffic weighs heavily in my decision. If I lived in a very rural area I might change my mind, but it is clear to me that the appeal is so limited that it will not happen in my lifetime barring radical restyling including substantial down sizing of the LS.
that urban America is becoming MORE congested as the years go by, which only further will reduce the overall demand for manual transmissions. And as automanual transmissions become more refined (read nanosecond shifts, better MPG, less drivetrain power losses), the demand for manuals will drop even further...
Sorry guys. I used to LOVE shifting when I was living here in the DC metro area back in the mid-80's, but beltway/parkway traffic here has probably DOUBLED since then, and studies indicate it will probably double again over the next 10-15 years. Makes me jealous of you guys living out west in non-congested rural areas!
"Given the 114 lb-ft of torque advantage of the MB & its huge 5.4L motor, and the weight similarities, not sure how much to make of the final drive ratios differences (3.62 vs 2.82)."
I was merely pointing out what difference the final drive ratios make in relation to performance since you've questioned before how much that affects acceleration. I'm not going to argue about what does or doesn't affect acceleration. Make your own judgements.
I live in Phoenix Arizona. This place is far from uncongested, but compared with Atlanta (where I lived for nearly 4 years during the 90s) and LA, Phoenix has much lighter rush-hours. It's no picnic though either! The good thing about Arizona is that there are only 2 real population centers (Phoenix and Tucson) with Flagstaff is a distant third. The good part about that is the open spaces and mountains in between! During off-peak hours, Phoenix is a snap to get around. However, in the Phoenix metro area (aka Valley of the Sun), the roads are very much a grid pattern, with a trafic light at each intersection. As our population has grown over the last 20 years, the highway system as grown as well (just not as fast as we would like). The "problem" I have with metro driving is that it's rather a pain to drive a manual, particularly with stupid drivers darting from lane to lane immediately in front of you. I enjoyed my two, 2-seater red sports cars preceding my LS, but as traffic has increased over the years, my desire to keep a manual has diminished to the point where I prefer the SST in my LS. To me, I have the best of all worlds with the flexibility this system affords. In town, and with clients, I can leave the car in auto mode and not worry about being the most "appropriate" gear. While in the open spaces and twistie roads, I can be in SST mode and have all the control I would have had in my manual. I can hold 3 gear on mountain roads that keep me in the power band without an unwanted upshift or downshift. The only thing I might miss from time to time is downshifting directly from 4th gear to 2nd gear when going into a turn real hard, but it's just not that big a deal. In the LS, I prefer the SST, but having a V8 manual would still speak volumes for this car as the "enthusiasts" choice and would improve the cache of this ride.
My local dealer doesn't stock manuals as they have what I believe he called a 100 day "turnaround". I can't say that I blame him if it takes over 3 months to sell a car. I didn't get a manual as I couldn't wait for an ordered car to arrive. I was in a "must buy today" position. Don't be so hard on people just 'cause they "settled" for what was available. In any form this is a fantastic automobile with a large demographic appeal.
1. If congestion equals an increased desireability for and purchase of cars with automatic transmissions, can anyone explain to me why highly congested areas like Western Europe drive manuals? Would be interesting to see the percentage of automatics versus manuals in congested Japan? Or in the various 2nd & 3rd world megalopolises around the world--Mexico City, Manila, Lagos, Bangkok, Seoul, Rio, Peking (take that Chi-Coms), New Delhi, Cairo, etc.
2. Maybe I was wrong to think this site was for driving enthusiasts and those who want to make cars more exciting and enjoyable (without necessarily sacrificing reliability or pricing them like Aston Martins). Enough about trying to get Lincoln to make the LS8 a much better car by having an LS8 manual as an OPTION for those so inclined. Back to discussions about truly important things like better fake wood ("wud"), improved speakers, more practical cupholders, etc. All those things that truly make a car great. Oops, maybe I should go to the Chyrsler Town & County thread?
You specifically pointed out only the final drive ratio difference but not the difference in the number of gears and the different individual gear ratios. I fully concur that both impact acceleration. That is likely why BMW rightly uses the 6-speed manual over the 5-speed automatic. Which one do you think is most important in regard to impact relative acceleration in this specific case? Final drive or individual gear ratios?
Would be interesting to see what that M3 would do with (a) the same final drive as the MB AMG but its current individual 6 ratios and (b) its current final drive but the same individual gear ratios as the MB. Would (a) out accelerate (b) or vice versa? Can anyone mathematically model it based on the info in C&D?
are more desireable and sell better due to their better fuel economy. Period. We're lucky in the US with the still comparatively inexpensive fuel price of $2.00/gal.
After reading R&T's 6/01 edition review of the Jag X-type 3.0 Sport w/5-speed manual, I can't wait to see the comparison test to 330i, C320, IS300, A4, etc. Wonder if anyone will include an LS as part of the comparison? Their price as tested was a near fully loaded $43,970, up from base price of $35,950; however, it buys you 0-60 in 6.5 secs, 146 mph top speed, .83g, and 60-0 braking in only 118 feet. Not to mention a very large 16 cu ft trunk.
So when gas permanently hits $2.00 and up a gallon, do you predict a major increase in manual trannys in USA? If not, at what price will we want and buy manuals like in Europe and Japan? Or will we just keep buying Excursions, Expeditions, and Navigators regardless of fuel cost?
I bought the Auto because the manual was not available with the V8. I test drove the LS6-5M and was not impressed. I wanted more power, and I got it. I would still like more power and maybe one day will get it. As for why Europe uses manuals instead of auto's. That is what gets the mpg and also what they were taught on. Most Americans are to lazy to shift, or don't know how. later
"We just got some incredible news from Lincoln Mercury! From May 5th to July 2nd you can purchase a Lincoln with 0.0% financing for 36 months (that's not a typo it really is zero) AND they're giving you a first payment rebate as well! WOW! If you choose to finance for a longer period you still get a great deal, 0.9% for 48 months and 2.9% for 60 months and you still get the first payment rebate. If you choose to lease you also get the first payment rebate. Now is definitely the time to get into a Lincoln! We've got plenty to choose from, so give me a call or respond to this e-mail and let me know when you'd like to come in so we can help you choose YOUR new Lincoln!"
Guess this makes it officially a buyers market on the LS.
Also, San Diego is pretty congested, so I opted for the V8. I drove the V6 to see if I it would be acceptable, but after driving the V8, there was no comparison. That torque felt good.
As for gas, prices have been $2.00 a gallon for some time in San Diego for premium. We just get used to it I guess, supply versus demand. And we don't want to drive less. Too much sunshine not too!
Comments
CU's automobile reliability ratings are very poorly organized and inconsistent, but a lot of readers don't know this. I think they should completely change the way they survey this data and the way they haphazardly draw conclusions.
Thanks, Michael
1. The dealer replaced the Firestones with Goodyears, the vibration is still the same, peaks at the same road speed (71 MPH) and has the same frequency of vibration.
2. The frequency of the vibration does not change with road speed. If it was strictly a tire or wheel problem the frequency of the vibration should change with road speed.
3. The hotter the temperature is (is was 90+ yesterday) and the longer I drive the more wide the range of road speeds are that I can feel / hear the vibration. By the end of the trip the vibration was just as bad at 60 MPH as any other speed.
4. The vibration moves around the car and changes with the load, the heavier the LS is loaded the less the vibration can felt or heard.
5. I got the rare change (in the croweded northeast) to get my LS up to 100. The vibration does not get any worse as road speed increases. If it really was a tire / wheel problem the vibration should get worse the faster you go.
6. I hear as well as feel the vibration, it's like the entire unbody is resonating.
7. Some passengers in my LS have noticed the vibration and pointed it out without me saying anything about the vibration. Other passengers do not feel of hear any vibration and have just looked at me funny when I try to point it out to them. This leads me to belive that the number of LS's that have the vibration is higher than you may think. People who are more sensitive to low frequency noises and vibrations (~30 Hz) will be much more likly to feel, hear and complain about the vibration.
My conclusion: The LS has a unibody resonance that is excited by the slightest amount of tire or wheel vibration. I've never had a car that had a vibration like this and never had to go through so much screwing around with the tires.
Sounds like a good deal to me. The only "catch" is it's 10K miles/year, .20/mile thereafter. Even still, I haven't seen anything approaching this for the LS. I've seen the base LS for $399/month, but with some ridiculous down payment, like $3500 or so. And the base car stickers at something like 12 or 13K less than this S-Type. Based on current sales figures and favorable residuals, perhaps Lincoln should start rethinking their marketing strategy.
Based on crowd reaction to the X-Type at NY Int'l auto show, I have to agree with you. I never even got to sit on the driver's side, because the lines were too long and I felt a personal obligation to be available at the LS exhibit. Couldn't get near this thing. Between price, AWD, standard equipment level and availability of 3.0L/Sport package, the LS is going to take a hit. Ford might be stealing sales from themselves with this one. Interior space and comfort(at least in front) are comparable to S-type.
A shot in the arm is definitely needed and they need to start with the advertising campaign, which lately seems to be MIA. The last TV ad I saw was about 2 months ago and while it was an improvement, I haven't seen anything since. This car has been on the market for almost 2 years now. Others who worked the NY auto show will back me up here, but there is no way, at this point in time, there should be the number of people asking if this was a Continental-INCLUDING friends of mine. I saw a Broadway show last week and there was an LS ad in the Playbill. Totally lame! It would a good cure for insomnia. I just don't understand Ford when it come to this. They did it with the last-gen T-Bird, the Mark 8 and are doing it now with the Cougar, while other mfrs. are introducing new coupes to the market.
Some of the improvements you mentioned may be, or should be, on the way. They cannot rest on their laurels with this car. The market moves too fast these days.
I once bought a new corvette whose steering wheel would shimmy with a 3-4 inch back and forth motion but the car rode very smooth. It drove me nuts and took about 6 months to get resolved. Even at that, I had to solve the problem myself. A *very* brief synopsis follows: after complaining to the dealer and getting nowhere, the regional engineering rep was called in for another round of getting nowhere. I was provided with everything from "they all do that" to many balance sessions and new tires, all of which changed the shimmy in various degrees for better or worse but never eliminating it. Next, the Goodyear rep came down from Akron and gave it a go. I was directed to the "best Goodyear facility in Houston" where I received another set of tires and balancing act which actually made the problem worse. They even installed two complete sets of what they called "ramp tested" tires which I was told were tires pulled off the assembly line and run through a battery of special tests where only the finest tires survived which were then made available to racing organizations or folks who had special requirements. I had to make several visits to that dealer which was totally on the other side of Houston from where I lived in Deer Park and I was growing weary of the repeated useless trips.
I decided to see what I could find out for myself and found a book on pneumatic tire engineering technology in the tech library where I work at the Johnson Space Center. (you might wonder why a book on tires was to be found in a "space technology library" - don't forget that the lunar rover first had tires and then the shuttle, and they were pretty harsh environments and we didn't know a whole lot about tires for those applications). Anyhow, I learned that there was a characteristic known as instantaneous rolling resistance that affected tire operation more or less depending upon it's design and construction - radial or bias, belt design, material and placement, rubber compound, clamshell or sectional mold fabrication, etc.
For our down to earth application, I concluded that the main player was the mold type. Goodyear (and most if not all other manufacturers in the US) were using sectional molds at that time. This is a mold in 6 or 8 sections that sorta spread out from the center. A worker would then lay up The tire components in the center of the mold and then the mold sections were collapsed around the lay-up and the tire vulcanized at that point. you can see the parting lines on the tire's sidewalls on this type of construction. There is a lot of opportunity for the various pieces to slip out of alignment in this type of process which results in the belt not being totally symetrrical around the tread area or more or less rubber and any point around the periphery. This is what drives the instantaneous rolling resistance of the tire - imagine the more or less rubber at one point and/or the belt being more or less on-center causing the tire to roll a little slower or faster give the same applied force. Now imagine your two front tires, as they roll down the road, wanting to roll a little faster or slower than the other - think of steering a tracked vehicle - but in reverse. What happens is that the tires resistance to rolling at some point around it's rotation compared to the other wants to translate back through the steering mechanism (feedback) and depending upon the steering system design, some of this feedback turns into the tires wanting to drive the steering wheel rather than the other way around.
If you had a system that heavily damped out such motion because it couldn't make it back through the reverse side of a worm gear arrangement, you would never know all that was going on in your tires. However, in a "sporty" car with tighter, closer coupled steering (such as rack and pinion) which design in more feedback than a land yacht has or wants, these forces are felt in the steering wheel being driven by the tires in that back and forth shimmy thet many folks are experiencing. Even if you don't notice this as a problem, I would bet that if you drive down the road with your hands just barely on the wheel, you could see this happening to a very small degree...it's just not noticable under ordinary circumstances.
In a clam shell mold, the top of the mold lifts out of the way while the bottom remains stationary. The worker lays up the tire's components in the bottom mold where the process tends to minimize any shifting of components. Then the top mold piece is closed and the tire is vulcanized at that point. You can see the tire's parting lines running along the tires circumferance in the center of the tread area on a tire made this way. At the time, the only tire constructed this way that I knew of and that I'd be interested in was the Michelin who, if I'm not mistaken, invented the process. Since neither Chevrolet or Goodyear were inclined to replace the OEM tires with Michelins, I struck a deal where they gave me 4 new unmounted tires which I sold and used the proceeds to buy a set of Michelins and then let them change the michelins for the Goodyear ramp tested tires to give to somebody else. Problem solved.
(what really hurts in all this is that after the unbelievable hassle, 90% of which I left out 'cause this is long enoug already, is that about 3 months later while on the way to work, another corvette pulled out right in front of from a side street - I was doing about 65mph. I could see I was going to centerpunch him right in the drivers door so I put mine in a sideways skid and slammed into him broadside more evenly distributing the impact forces. Saved his life but both cars were totalled - rained fiberglass at that intersection for a week...
Luckily I haven't had to contend with an "unfixable" balance problem but from what I learned in this exercise I can see where all kinds of symptoms resulting from any number of wheel assembly balance issues can show up as anything from steering wheel shake (not shimmy - that's different) which is most likely the place you feel certain types of vibration the easiest, body shake if the tire's vibration is resonating with the body, to localized wheel shake and obvious wear to the tire itself...it can be quite a complex subject.
I said all that to say this...shimmy and vibration ain't all that easy to fix sometimes if the bits and pieces on your particular vehicle are all lined up within their tolerances but conspiring against you. It's not any one thing nor is it necessarily indicative of a poor design or execution of that design...it's reality. Take it slow, do your homework, and you will get it sort
Scottc8: There have been vibration discussions on this forum almost since day one. There was someone who advised me a year ago to get Michelins for the reasons xwray gives, that LS owner said the Michelins solved his vibration problem. Of couse there's silly me who somehow was expecting that the dealer and Lincoln would be willing and able to fix the problem under warranty without me having to shell out any $$.
Tweaked the SC 4.0L - now puts out 410 hp at 6200 rpm and 420 lb-ft at 3600 rpm
Bolted to a Tremec T-56 six speed manual with a 3.69 LSD
With S-type (LS) rear suspension.
Estimated 0-60: 4.9 seconds
Quote: "But there appears to be a real chance that the manual-gearbox package and the cosmetic changes might eventually surface. Even if it cost 10 grand, that six-speed would be worth every penny."
After a 4-wheel rotation our LS-8 Sport picked up a slight vibration (at 90). I took it in for a high-speed balance job. Problem solved.
Not all LS's have a vibration problem.
Checked out the new '02 Mountaineer while I waited. Excellent fit and finish, very impressive vehicle for the money.
While there I had nothing better to do than look at cars. Dealer had 3 brand new '01 Audi A6 2.8s Quattros in the service area. Stickered at $40,600 and were both priced & optioned like my loaded LS8. Absolutely no comparison on the interior materials and details. A6 interior is rightly considered best in class. Look and felt ab fab! Leather, plastic/wood, metal combo just works perfectly. Loved the large, well-shaped trunk with the non-intrusive hinges. Doors, trunk, and hood open & close better than bank vaults. After spending just 10 minutes in the A6, I know I'll test drive one well before buying anything in future.
As for the Conti, have put about 350 miles on it. Overpriced piece of junk. Feels and drives just like a loaded Sable, though with a much better engine. Engine is about all it has. Economy pretty decent, too. But, it ain't fun to drive, isn't good looking, & materials appear cheap. And they have the gall to put a $40,000 plus sticker on it! No wonder they get discount $8-10,000 off!!! Made me ashamed to be a Lincoln owner.
By the way, the loaner is a 2001 Deville. the wife hates the "boat", but boy what an engine. The power of the northstar in the LS with a 6-speed would give a 540i a run for it's money.
Battery dead after 8 days in the garage. Won't hold a charge. Dealer to look at it tomorrow. Hope its just a bad battery. Would appreciate comments from others that have had battery problems.
Your LS weighs in at almost two tons. It seems unlikely that a vehicle only a little over half the weight of your LS could cause so much damage by 'idle-ing forward' into you when the driver's foot slipped off the brake (unless he was 'idle-ing' along at 40 MPH).
If my memory is correct, there is a known problem were the battery cable is shorting were it goes through the frame. I think it only effected early builds. I'd have the dealer check into it. I am positive someone who has had this problem will fill you in on the details.
Tom...
Stanny1: You'll love what C&D says about the I-6's performance getting to 8,000 RPM redline.
Oh, why can't Lincoln put a 6-speed manual into the LS8???
Sorry guys and gals, but I just don't get it. On one hand we seem to have this sudden swell of "demand" for a six speed V8 LS. Yet beside myself, Stanny, Albert K and a couple of others (with apologies for momentary lapse of memory), most of the particpants on this board have opted for the automatic. Nothing wrong with the automatic, but it's not a stick.
I keep hearing justifications like, "I couldn't test drive one". Well guess what, neither could we, but we ordered one anyways. "My local dealer didn't have one in stock and that would mean I would have to wait". Well guess what, we were willing to wait, and IMHO, it was well worth it!
There is no doubt in my mind that those of us who "really" do want a stick and are willing to put our money where our mouths are, are in the extreme minority. I am quite confident that if there were more people that "really" wanted a stick, sales of sticks wouldn't be as miniscule as they are and the bean-counters would give the go-ahead for the mythical LS8-6M. But until they see the evidence of such, forget it guys, it ain't gonna happen.
I want to thank Jim Rogers for the honesty in his statement that it is extremely unlikely (my words, not his)that we'll see an LS8-6M and I think that the idea of a beefed up V6 is certainly a more realistic expectation when all the factors of development, EPA, durability and of course a nod from Martha Stewart and Ann Landers are factored in to the mix.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if sticks are discontinued all together by the time I'm ready to turn mine back in off of lease in time for the 2003 model year. Bottom line is, if you "really" wanted a stick, you should have bought one.
Oh, and as a gear-head, I'm really not convinced I need another gear. Technical gear ratio specs aside, I'm quite happy with 5 speeds thank you very much.
My 0.02 worth (adjusted for inflation of course)
Asbestos suit on......
F250- 3/4 ton, C 2500
F350- one-ton, C 3500
The Truck in question was a Chevrolet C3500, utility body with a bucket. Real bumper made of steel, not plastic and foam. I still don't believe the "foot slipped off the brake and I must have idled into her?" story. But, alas, that is what attorney's are for.....
Rear Axle Ratio:
M3 3.62
CLK55 2.82
P.S. Buy something like a house without taking a look at it....Just go off the specs 4 bedroom 2 Bath 2 Car Garage. Don't go look at it... Do that just like your car purchase....Put your money where your talk is at do that...Stop acting so manly. I am sorry but you really offended me and my intelligence and probably all of us that did want to buy a manual. Also Don't forget in Early 2000 you could not buy a V6 LS with a Moonroof... Cause there was a moonroof shortage and only V8's were getting the moonroof or something like that. That is why I opted for the V8. No test drive and a over $30K car without a moonroof that is a showstopper for most americans. Make sure you understand what you are talking about before you go shooting off, please.. I do not need a reply, just letting you know why I purchased a V8. It was due to decisions out of my control and in Lincoln's/Lincoln Dealership hands.... I am the first to pat Lincoln on the Back, and defend them about the LS but also point out the shortcomings.. We need to be patient and understanding but that only can go so long.
Regards,
Airwolf1000
is to have a 1:1 fifth. Toyota and many other Japanese mfgs use an overdrive fifth gear. This enables the use of a deeper rear ratio while increasing mpg, decreasing wear and NVH. When the Focus and Nissan SE-R can have Getrag six-speeds, why can't we? How about a .70 fifth gear and a 3:58 rear similar to the gearing of the V-6 auto LS? This combination should out-accelerate the V-8 auto LS in 0-60. Add VVT and LSD and you have an honest performance vehicle.
Finished "shooting off" now, Nomex on.
Key reason for LS8 manual is that the LS6 manual has too much weight fighting too little motor. Quite unimpressive performance figures. Bested by LS8 auto. You take the likely depreciation & resale hit but don't get any real performance enhancement? Hard to justify buying an LS6 manual in real world. Guess that may be why most automotive publications have done their tests on the LS8 Sport, including all the long-term tests I've seen (MT, C&D, R&T). The LS6 manual just doesn't offer enough performance. But, hey, I'm all in favor of serious output enhancements to the V-6 if it will translate into real improvements in acceleration. Also enhance the manual by making it a 6-speed. If Focus, Sentra, etc. have one, how could you seriously justify not in an LS6?
At least Jag has it right in new X-type. You can get the manual with the bigger motor. Too bad they skimped and went only 5-speed manual.
Gear BMW MB
1st 4.23 3.59
2nd 2.53 2.19
3rd 1.67 1.41
4th 1.23 1.00
5th 1.00 0.83
6th 0.83 ----
Notice how the last two gear ratios are the same. The 6-speed allows BMW to make 1st, 2nd, and 3rd numerically higher. Even when talking only about manuals, as the chart shows above, a 6-speed is prefered.
Of course, the aggressive gearing takes its toll on EPA estimates. Big MB rated 17/24. Smaller BMW at 16/24. Can someone explain to me how this big MB AMG with 342 hp/376 lb-ft torque gets same EPA estimate as LS8? It is actually rated better than my '00 LS8 Sport (17/23). Come on Lincoln! Is the LS8 engine/tranny combo that inefficient?
Is it the dealer's fault? I don't know. They are in business to make money and whether their inventory decisions are based on real or imagined local demand, they are only going to stock what they think they can sell. As it turned out, the last time I was at my dealer, he has a 5M in his stock, but I'm sure this was based on their experience with my sale as the first 5M they had sold. BTW, I believe it was the first LS they sold as well.
Is it Lincoln's fault? I don't know. They spent who knows how much money to develop this car and every single LS ad I have ever seen on TV has always shown the 5 speed manual. Looking at the 2000 brochure, the 5 speed is clearly displayed in a double full-page spread. While I haven't been to any auto shows lately, I do think that they should at least have one on display, (however, I have seen what line-ups of pimply faced 16 year olds can do to a stick equipped car on display as they pretend to run through the gear like Jackie Stewart)but the fact is I think that those who are really interested in the LS equipped with a 5 speed stick are probably aware of it. Does the average person on the street know that you can get a 5M LS? Of course not, but then again, they are not looking for this type of car.
As far as comparing the purchase of an LS6-5M without driving one to buying a house from plans (which by the way is an extremely common practice), I don't think they are as related as you imply. Of course I drove an LS before I ordered mine. I drove an LS 8 Sport, and based on my experience both with the test drive and as a long time car enthusiast, I was very confident that the car had the what I was looking for. I don't find it that big of a stretch to determine how the same car (<> a few pounds and 42 HP) is going to drive with a stick.
While many seem to feel that the LS-6 may be under-powered, I would say that I personally would not buy one with an automatic, as it would not provide the same experience for my style of driving. However, there is no doubt in my mind that the "seat-of-the-pants" feel and driver control of a 5 speed manual is much more satisfying than the same car with an automatic.
There is no way I would trade the thrill of running through the gears in the LS6-5M for the 8's extra 42 HP. But that's just me. Horsepower isn't everything.
M3 CLK55
1st 15.31 10.12
2nd 9.16 6.18
3rd 6.05 3.98
4th 4.45 2.82
5th 3.62 2.34
6th 3.00 ----
Rear 3.62 2.82
Up through the first four gears the M3 rear wheels are turning 3 times for every 2 of the CLK55 at the same engine RPM. I'll let you figure out if this makes a difference in acceleration.
Has anyone else had a problem with higher indicated OAT than what is the actual OAT. I saw that there is a TSB but for indicating lower than actual. 2000 V8 Sport.
Any fixes/suggestions?
They can really read high in summer traffic, but I always thought the additional increase over normal was real, due to traffic and heat trapped between the cars and road.
Both the smaller engined and lower engine outputted (if there is such a word?) M3 and LS6 manuals either outaccelerate or essentially equally accelerate the larger engined and higher output automatics (i.e., MB AMG and LS8 5-speed automatics), with limited impact on fuel economy.
Then translate that into an LS8 manual. I think it would make a huge difference to potential buyers, myself included. Without an LS8 manual, preferably 6-speed, methinks a Jag X-type 3.0L 5-speed manual would be a great replacement for my LS8 Sport. But I'd rather stay in the LS8.
Sorry guys. I used to LOVE shifting when I was living here in the DC metro area back in the mid-80's, but beltway/parkway traffic here has probably DOUBLED since then, and studies indicate it will probably double again over the next 10-15 years. Makes me jealous of you guys living out west in non-congested rural areas!
"Given the 114 lb-ft of torque advantage of the MB & its huge 5.4L motor, and the weight similarities, not sure how much to make of the final drive ratios differences (3.62 vs 2.82)."
I was merely pointing out what difference the final drive ratios make in relation to performance since you've questioned before how much that affects acceleration. I'm not going to argue about what does or doesn't affect acceleration. Make your own judgements.
2. Maybe I was wrong to think this site was for driving enthusiasts and those who want to make cars more exciting and enjoyable (without necessarily sacrificing reliability or pricing them like Aston Martins). Enough about trying to get Lincoln to make the LS8 a much better car by having an LS8 manual as an OPTION for those so inclined. Back to discussions about truly important things like better fake wood ("wud"), improved speakers, more practical cupholders, etc. All those things that truly make a car great. Oops, maybe I should go to the Chyrsler Town & County thread?
Would be interesting to see what that M3 would do with (a) the same final drive as the MB AMG but its current individual 6 ratios and (b) its current final drive but the same individual gear ratios as the MB. Would (a) out accelerate (b) or vice versa? Can anyone mathematically model it based on the info in C&D?
later
"We just got some incredible news from Lincoln Mercury! From May 5th to July 2nd you can purchase a Lincoln with 0.0% financing for 36 months (that's not a typo it really is zero) AND they're giving you a first payment rebate as well! WOW! If you choose to finance for a longer period you still get a great deal, 0.9% for 48 months and 2.9% for 60 months and you still get the first payment rebate. If you choose to lease you also get the first payment rebate. Now is definitely the time to get into a Lincoln! We've got plenty to choose from, so give me a call or respond to this e-mail and let me know when you'd like to come in so we can help you choose YOUR new Lincoln!"
Guess this makes it officially a buyers market on the LS.
Also, San Diego is pretty congested, so I opted for the V8. I drove the V6 to see if I it would be acceptable, but after driving the V8, there was no comparison. That torque felt good.
As for gas, prices have been $2.00 a gallon for some time in San Diego for premium. We just get used to it I guess, supply versus demand. And we don't want to drive less. Too much sunshine not too!
Jeff