Great article. Too bad Lincoln is having to resort to subsidies on LS. I can readily appreciate their need for Conti and TC, but had high hopes the car would do the talkin' for LS. Would be interesting to see if the other top 4 luxury makes have had to resort to anything similar lately. Can't say I've read them doing it. Their sales increases appear to be driven by good, reliable products sold at decent prices. Acura 3.2TL is a great example. And notice that Acura is pushing much more aggressive Sport models for TL and CL, with high output motors. Methinks Lincoln should be doing something similar with LS.
Fearful about what we'll read in the upcoming new model year issues of C&D, MT, R&T, etc. Will there be any substantive change for '02 LS? Or will they pass over LS or just talk about minor changes like new color, revised standard equipment, etc? I noticed that the DN article mentioned changes with other Lincoln products but not LS. That doesn't seem to bode well for generating any new buzz or interest for '02 LS.
Had to go to Des Moines. On way back tonight I noticed 5 LS on I-80, going East. Also noticed 1 M5, 1 M3, and 1 330i, each going West. The 3 Bimmers passed me doing 74 mph in my work Sonata GLS. I didn't pass a single LS nor did one pass me. Not sure if that means anything, but would've been nice if an LS had whipped by me like the M5 or M3 did!
If the LS had the same 4liter V8 like the Jag has there would be no need for incentives now! The car would be in the 540i category, plus the impact on the S-type sales would have been minimal. LM needs to make significant changes to the LS from year to year not just interior tweeks to keep the sales moving and keeping the brand image in the luxury hot rod lincoln category. The competition is catching up quick to the 252Hp rating.
Seems to me that Lincoln will have to do SOMETHING to add more value to the LS in the near future. Cadillac is certain to take aim at the 'S with the domestic Catera replacement. And you can be just as certain that BMW, Acura, Lexus, Audi, Infiniti are not going to stand still. So any news on the '02 freshening will be helpful. As for me, I am going to give the Jag X-type a real hard look in August. Had the LS promised a stick for the V8 or more hp/torque for the V6 manual, I would wait.
IF ONLY...the LS was more like the 5 Series maybe LS sales would not be down...Opps...the BMW 5-Series sales were DOWN significantly in April and DOWN for the whole year!
Fact is, the 5 Series sales for the year are off THE SAME AS the LS.
for January thru April period...
'01 >> 12,769 for LS and 11,929 for 5 Series '00 >> 16,994 for LS and 16,025 for 5 Series
I can see why Brian left this board, there seems to be a whole lot of whining going on.
You guys are on to something. Does the LS lack an "Identity" ? A "U.S.P." or Unique Selling Proposition ? Surely LM has not emphasized the LS strengths like handling. It's like all that suspension work and we're not going to tell anyone about it. Where did all that initial thrust hit the wall ? Who's the [non-permissible content removed] at LM that put up the stop sign ? It's like the guy that got stuck between two dimensions. With the LS not being imported to Europe and Volvo taking its place, there is no pressure to finish the car to compete in the "World Class" marketplace. It's been almost 30 years since my last marketing class at San Diego State, but is the LS an example of "New School" or No School" marketing ? I don't think "American Luxury and Performance" is going to alienate the "traditional" LM buyer if it's applied to the LS and selectively to a performance model. Do Crown Victoria buyers look elsewhere because Ford also builds the Cobra ? Do Impala buyers leave the showroom because a Corvette sits in the corner ? Nonsense. And Jag buyers won't leave the showroom because VVT is on an optional LS performance model. I think that current LM buyers are pretty well sold on their Conti or TC before they hit the showroom. And tomorrow's luxury buyers, raised on BMWs, Audis, etc and being alot more knowledgeable about mechanicals, are not going to settle for poor "performance value". The LS must be the performance leader for LM if not for all of Ford in the 4 door, RWD department. Grab the gauntlet before Land Rover eats Ford and BMW recovers from their Land Rover debacle. Lexus and Acura are working hard to make LM's great efforts with the LS a distant memory. Ford has the parts, and with just a minimum amount of R&D, the LS could be a class leader. Ok, I'm putting the soapbox away and donning the Nomex.
Funny thing happened similar to others posts, drove the car around lunch, ext temp sensor read 80 degrees. Got in later in the evening, temp still read 80, even though I new it was at least less than 75. Sat for a minute changing back and forth between interior setting and ext reading. Decided, maybe if I hold the button down, it resets. About five seconds after letting go, it started dropping. Hypothetical that it could be related to me holding it down or the fact that I was driving. Anyway, it dropped to 72 and held after my 0.5 mile drive home (not much of a fun drive home, leaves me wanting for more).
I have very minimal noise in the LS. At high speeds, above 80, I can hear some directional wind in the rear doors and a tad in the front, but this is when I am not blasting the radio. Overall, the car is rock solid with no noise or vibrations. I have the V8 and two things to compare over my old 96 Taurus, one, the Taurus was mad noisy, I always noticed it and I had to reseat three of the window seals with screws since they popped out over time. Two, I still have to get used to the LS V8. I was so used to getting in the Taurus and punching the gas when I wanted to go. On the LS, just tapping the accel lurches me forward. I love it.
To bad that one guy gave up the LS for an Audi, I don't think they compare for the offering and value. But, he wanted a manual. I was going to get the LS V8 sport, but after driving the regular, I figured, you have the option to shift into all five gears. I have done this a number of times with ease. Drop to fourth or third on the freeway, or drive on the roads in any gear I choose. It's an easy transition to the next gear once you get used to it. Just my preference I guess.
As for the Licoln incentives, I don't think it cheapens the brand. Of course, in terms of resale, it might hurt the current owners, but times are hard and any marketeer knows that you gotta sell more or the people you employ are in jepordy, dealers included. As a die hard american, I love value, and I think many agree. Not all can afford the expensive options, so many look for the value, which is why I think the type of incentive offered fits very well with most peoples perception of Licoln, a great car at a good value. When I was in Dallas last weekend, I saw two middle aged women driving V6 LS's. I saw another young man driving a V8. They looked truly content in each case. All these sightings in a two day period.
Probably going to finalize my purchase tonight (LS8 sport). I know there are varing opinions regarding extended warranties. I spoke to one of the finance people at the dealership I probably will buy the car from and he stated the premium care warranty;( to extend the factory warranty for 2 more years or 75000 miles) costs $1200. I was also told that if something were to happen to my LS prior to the start of the extended warranty I would only get rebated back 1/2 or $600. I know that in time I need to have the extended warranty (I usually keep my cars 6 years), but in as much as the extended warranty cost would increase in a couple of years I really do not want to risk $600. Any thoughts???
Some of us want the LS8 to have sufficient options to allow it to perform more like the 5 Series (but stay priced more like the 3 Series).
Looking at heyjewel's posted DN article, Lexus, BMW, and Acura all posted significant increases while both Lincoln and Cadillac suffered significant decreases. For BMW, would be interesting to see what has happened to 3, 5, & 7 Series, as well as their SUV. New 3 Series is a big enhancement. Is it cutting into some 5 Series sales? I'd be surprised if it isn't. Price of their SUV is in heart of 5 Series territory. Guessing it, too, has cut into 5 Series sales. But the net effect has been an increase in total BMW sales, not a big decrease as with Lincoln.
Will be interesting to see if new Blackwood and revised TC & Navigator can reverse Lincoln's sales trend. If there are no substantive enhancements to LS for '02, guessing LS won't be the vehicle to pull Lincoln out of its sales doldrums. Not with Jag introducing the hot new X-type, Acura improving 3.2TL, Cadillac to revamp Catera, etc. Will LS sales be foreced to rely on rebates, subsidized financing, and fleet sales for '02? '03?
I totally agree with your comments, My whining has been directed at the recent fall off in Lincoln o touting the LS. I feel like I was left out to Dry. This is the First Serious attempt at a Sports Sedan that is reasonably priced, My wallet right now just doesn't want to do the 55+g thing for a BMW 540. But come on 45G's for a LS8 Manual, I would definitely be willing, especially if it is still looked as mean (like one of my friend that is a girl said) as the LS.. Have one Demo at each dealership(Not For Sale), and Special Order after you drive the demo....
I don't know I just feel like the DEW98 Platform has become the World Platform for the other vehicles but not the LS.. All the visions of Grandeur quickly fell to the Way Side..... No WorldWide Deployment, No 2002 Manual V8, etc...
It has become apparent the LS8 will not be the BMW Killer we all wanted it to be... Neither will the JAG I surmise... The JAG is LUXI the LS is the one Slated to Dethrone BMW but it is not to be... Could, But Won't. Is Lincoln Really a competitive company, or does it have monopolistic trends in niche markets like the 60, and 70 year old markets.. Jim Made a good point at LS MANIA in January When the Age group who is buying the TC and CONTI are increasing in AGE, it doesn't take long to figure out that market will soon disappear. Well The LS Owner might have bought the First one just like Lincoln set out to do, to Tap the younger market 30 somethings (26 in my case), However, I think they will be seeing my market disappear in about 2 years...Not at 70 plus like they would like.
Maybe its all a part of the Strategy which it does appear this way, Get them into a Lincoln Then, Entice them to move up to a Jag, or whichever brand is next up the totem pole. That is great and all, but the Fact is Different Brands and cars especially have different feel... The Jag is a little on the Feminine, and Luxurious type. The new Image the LS was portraying and the Whole American Luxury thing is where I want to be. Not the jag....
I am sorry I am whining but I am somewhat of a perfectionist, and the LS has so much potential. It seems simple to perfect it...
First you get the customer, then you keep them coming back for more... (Retention) I believe is the word.. Jim I hope you are just holding out on us, I want to come back so bad but from what I have heard its not to be...
This morning on my way to work I had a big smile on my face... I was driving to Work and I was Playing Moby, The song was "First Cool Hive" from the album mobysongs 1993-1998 Essential Tracks. In any Case I go up this hill in Dallas (One of a very limited few) and I pictured a commercial for an LS with this song. Sord of Like the Nissan Commercials, but with this song and the LS. The song is choreagraphed such that you start out with a flash face shot of the LS, Then a flash Side Shot, Back shot, etc. (All the shots diming to black Screen with the Lincoln Logo and American Luxury below it) The music is a smooth cool beat with a female vocalist saying in a soft cool clean voice oooooooyeah about every 4 seconds. (It Covers the whole 4 seconds fading before it repeats) .(when each picture flashes on the screen and fades into American Luxury. Then the song takes off kind of a very emotional soft journeylike song with the LS winding slowly from Left to right down a mountain side.
You guys should listen to the Song Download it in MP3 format, or let me know at durangokit@yahoo.com and I will MP3 it and send it to you so you know what I am talking about. It is nice...
There seems to be more disenchantment with the lack of plans for a V8/Manual than I would have expected. Also, we have mentioned the lack of promotion of the LS.
I would only point out that the market in which the LS competes is probably more aggressive and faster moving than any market Ford has ever been in. Further, the LS was a "clean sheet of paper" product in early 1999. Were are only in the second model year. Ford has never had a reputation for taking many chances and I don't think we should be terribly surprised that we don't yet have a 540 killer.
Frankly, I would be surprised if there is ever a V8/Manual. However, I will bet dollars to doughnuts that more power is on the way. Like someone mentioned earlier, the GS430 Lexus somehow struggles along without a manual. I haven't seen any ads for it in my market lately either. Wouldn't you be tickled pink if the LS could run wheel to wheel with a GS430, have the Lexus refinement, and still cost less? That is very doable in my humble opinion.
The current LS does a lot of things very well but there are trade-offs. Maybe, at some point, there should be more of a difference between the sport and non-sport models. Maybe focus the non-sport more to the luxury set with plenty of wood, leather, sound insulation, and gee-gaws. Maybe the sport should be more carbon fiber trim, supercharged engines, minimal weight. With two versions of the LS focused on their respective niches, there would be less need to compromise the product.
airwolf1000, #2460: Great comments. I couldn't have said it better! I had just turned 36 in '99 when I bought my '00 LS8 Sport. Unless Lincoln takes steps to improve the breed significantly, doubt I'll buy another. I have high expectations and keep watching other manufacturers working aggressively to continuously significantly improve their products.
brucelinc, #2462: As regards Lexus GS430, check out the June issue of Motor Trend, p. 59. Quick test headline reads "More cubes, more peformance, more lux for the edgy GS." Brakes like a Corvette Z06 (60-0 mph in 108 ft). Accelerates like a 540i manual (0-60 mph in 5.9 secs). Base price is $47K and their tested one had an MSRP of $54K. Too rich for me.
I've been absent from the discussion for the past 6 weeks after my LS-8 (built Jan 2000) got the new re flash. Follows are observations after driving in all sorts of conditions:
The new program is wonderful. The automatic transmission (non-SST) never will shift like a Z-F on an Aston Martin, but it is now very predictable and refined. I can use the stick to manually shift down through the gears for engine-braking, and the car doesn't lurch or hop or free-wheel. The car engages reverse, and forward quickly and expectedly now every time. (It was a valet who nearly backed the LS through a wall by gunning the engine waiting for reverse to engage that convinced me to get the re flash done). The transmission always shifted well going through the gears in acceleration, and I notice no change there. Going up hills in stop and go traffic, the transmission doesn't seem to hunt for a gear as much. All in all, after a year and a half ownership, I still enjoy driving the car, and think the transmission programming is now "invisible."
Interestingly, the re flash seems to have changed the manner the headlight auto-on works. I always leave it on about a 10 second delay - off. Now, the sensor seems a bit more quick to turn on the lights when I am stopped under an overpass, and then holds them on a bit longer in bright sunlight until it turns them off automatically.
I'm not nuts - this feature really did change after the reflash! Must be the way the MY 2001 cars are set up.
but it is unrealistic to use $50k+ cars as a yardstick for the LS. Yes, there's room for improvement, and within it's current price range, but if you want 540i performance you must pay for it. Jacking the LS up to that level of performance, and price, might just kill it because it would still be competing with the BMW "mystique".
People who are unhappy with Lincoln because their LS has quality problems are right to complain and expect more for their money. People who are unhappy that their $35k car doesn't perform like a $55k car should have known better, and bought something else.
Besides, what do you do with a BMW after you've killed it?
I don't think that the LS would have to cost $55K+ to have V8 manual or V8-300Hp automatic! The $40Kto$45K range would make it a great value and keep the Lexus, Acura from running over the LM- brand. As giowa and others have pointed out Ford&LM needs to move faster unlike the Navigator, where they could wait several years before placing the 300hp-V8 under the hood. The LS needs to change quicker from model year to model year while holding on to the "value and luxury equation". There is no need to kill the BMW-5 series or sell the LS at the same or higher price. Note: the 5 series is doing well because the X5 is not a true SUV like Navigator, but positioned as another model in the 5 series line up and priced right. Just neat and clever German marketing!
Good Comments! I concur that LM probably had little idea of what the LS would do vis-a-vis the marketplace. I don't think they anticipated an "enthusiast" following. Especially one that is this critical. But LM jumped into this market segment with their eyes closed further than some mfgs. Bringing out the only American 4 door RWD Manual raised some sophisticated eyebrows. And those people are watching LM's progress. Once the honeymoon accolades are over, LM has to step up to the plate and define their direction. I'm for the most probable (IMHO) performance outcome, and that is a V-6 VVT Manual that is somewhat like a SVT edition, but ALL Manuals would be this configuration. If you want a Manual, it's going to have the Getrag six-speed, an LSD 3:58 rear, and VVT V-6. Keep the price under 40k list. Maybe a carbon-fiber wrapped interior instead of plastic panel city. This is not too much to ask or hard to do. The only new piece is the LSD unit, and that should have been in the works by MY2001 anyway. This would be a 528 killer. But Scottc8 is right. Forget the 540i killer stuff. I don't want to pay that much for a car. And the number of 540i Manuals is miniscule. 540i6s and M5s are really rare birds. In that price class, I doubt their owners would drive them the way I do my LS Manual. These are simply intimidation/show pieces. Most of the 540's I see are driven by 35+ "ladies" who have automatics and carboned-up exhausts. It's the 11 second Civics on NOX that worry me.
Autoweek also tested the AMG C32 (Mercedes C class with a helical supercharged 3.2L V6 putting out 349 hp and 332 lb/ft). Comes with a SPEEDSHIFT (their caps, not mine) 5-spd automatic tranny specially designed to shift 35% faster than the normal production model. It also holds gears under lateral g forces and automatically downshifts up to 2 gears under braking. Hold the shifter to the left and it automatically downshifts to the correct gear. Autoweek seemed to like it very much. Here's the quote that precipitated this post:
"While we complain, why no manual in this sportiest Mercedes?" "If we were offering it, real demand would be less than 5 percent," said Zimmerman. "We would never recover our costs."
Hi, there. I had been using J. D. Power web site to get monthly car sales numbers to see how well are the Lincoln LS doing. But J. D. Power stopped this data service. Any other sites to get the data ( monthly sales data of all makes, all models ). Thanks.
It appears that their is alot of people putting the AS down that don't even own a LS.This was a board for people to find a little help with some common problems. Now it's just a chat room about for anything.
Here we go. Love it or hate it, this is what the LS needs to survive and excel.
1)More HP. Plain and simple. 210hp and 252hp was par for the automotive course in the Spring/Summer of 1999 when the LS was introduced, but now its 2001. For 2002 those numbers are well below par for this segment. The LS has to have at least 230-240hp for the V6 and at least 280plus for the V8. Is adding VVT to the LS engines THAT cost prohibitive? Jim, is it REALLY that important to keep HP differences so extreme between the S class Jag and LS? Note the HP differences between the Maxima and its bog brother Infiniti I30. Exact same engines, I30 is the upper class version of the Max, and the HP figures are usually only 5 or so HP apart, yet they both have been selling well for years. Max 20th anniversary edition even has that 5hp more added.
2)Sorry, but no need to waste the money on the stick shift version. Take the money and improve on the current automatic transmission. Make it shift 35% faster. Quiet all the critics(ie Edmunds own reviewers) of the current auto transmission, and do something so the automatic trannys dont sap as much power as they currently do. Dont Vette's automatic transmissions get almost the same performance as a manual transmission Vette?
3)Do something to improve gas mileage, or, if you can keep the same mileage with the HP improvements mentioned in my #1 above, then you are ok.
4)Thats it. The suspension is perfect. I now have 32,000 miles on my 2000 LS, and the suspension is STILL fine, shocks dont feel worn at all, and the balance/neutral handling is still tremendous, especially for a Lincoln. (EVERY LS owner needs to push their LS handling to the limits at least once...you gotta understand what you have...take it to a wide open stadium parking lot one weekend and run it hard. This thing is nothing short of BMW handling).
5)Oh, and one more thing. If you do all of the above, you must keep the price where it is NOW. Nope. Cant charge a dime more. Ok, maybe $100 more. But you gotta keep sucking in more people with the value factor before you can creep up the price. BMW has the reputation that can carry the high prices. Lincoln doesnt.
Yep, I have read the MT piece regarding the GS430. The price is to rich for my blood, too. However, a displacement increase and VVT for the LS V8 would be relatively cheap. A supercharger would also be a low cost method of gaining power. Some revisions to gearing would not add much cost. Achieving 0-60 times in the high 5s or low 6s with the next generation LS should not put the price in Lexus territory. Obviously, I don't expect to get a $55,000 car for $40,000. However, there is great potential for improvement in many areas without breaking the bank. Don't you agree the basics are already in place - chassis, engine design, etc?
I was thumbing through the Jan, 2000 edition of MT last night and they had a long term wrap-up of the 98 GS400, which was a new model at the time. Raved about the performance but 43% of owner responses indicated mechanical problems. 10% complained of steering vibrations and 16% indicated problems with tires. They also mentioned at least 3 recalls or TSBs. Sound familiar? Spending 55k doesn't guarantee satisfaction.
One last thing: I don't think it is surprising that not all LS owners will buy another LS. I agree that if your expectations are a 540 killer, by all means ante up another 15 - 20 thousand and go for something else. I think the current LS is very competitive in it's price range and the potential is there to improve it and keep it competitive without much of a price increase.
I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I guess I haven't seen the downward spiral you are talking about. I have read every post since the beginning. I will gladly talk common problems (or lack of them) all day long but what more is there to say about moisture in headlights, PCM reflashes, failed seat heaters, vibrations, etc? :-)
Well I bought my 01 LS8 last night. Drove it home and drove it to work. Runs great. No vibrations, wind noise, etc. Seems to be just as quiet as my Mark VIII. Before I purchased it the salesman let me take it on an extended road test. We put about 25 miles on the car. The dealership delivered what I had specifically wanted...colors and equipment. Also when I went to test drive the car they had washed and detailed. I appreciated that because then I could really see the exterior paint etc. I got a great deal and a fair trade-in for my MarkVIII. I purchased the car at Galpin Lincoln Mercury in Van Nuys Cal. (surburb of LA county). My salesman was Mike Jones...If anyone is thinking of purchasing a car in the area I would recommend both Mike and Galpin Lincoln Mercury. Thanks for all the help and info from all the postings. I'll keep you informed of the performance on the LS8.
Good Points. I agree on VVT. It is the most cost effective way to increase hp/torque and gas mileage at the same time, and it's already in the Jagfag parts bin. There is no need to spend alot of R&D costs on the Manual. Possibly the Getrag six-speed would "bolt-up" to the current manual bellhousing. I think LM designed the bellhousing to adapt to the current 221. I don't think Getrag changed a thing for LM. So the bellhousing, LUK clutch,slave cylinder - all could continue as built. The six-speed is critical for gas mileage and performance as it solely allows for a performance rear ratio (again, the current 3:58 as used now for the V-6 auto) and will drop cruise rpm for increased mpg, decreased wear and NVH. Expect high 6's without VVT, middle 6's with VVT. I don't think 5's are realistic without a V-8 Manual Six-speed with VVT which requires considerably more investment in R&D, EPA, etc. Maybe the Mercury Marauder would be the choice for Auto fans. But if it's a Cobra drivetrain in a Crown Vic body, it will need some kind of suspension transplant. I drove a Marquis De Sade a few weeks ago and the suspension was downright clunky compared to the LS.
Cute, Gary. After wading through the I6 vs V6 debate of a few months ago, I find some of the current topics pretty informative and thought-provoking. I didn't think so but I must have missed some the recent posts that has some folks so testy.
To Albert: Congratulations!! Sounds like you were treated right! You may not have as much time to contribute to this board because you will be looking for excuses to drive somewhere instead!
I don't think we are all getting cranky, its just the honeymoon is over as Stanny I believe said and now we have to live with our cars. But like a friend once said "I own three cars and I am not married to any of them", If the LS Does not live up to our expectations, it will get replaced. Lincoln would prefer we replace it with a Lincoln or maybe a Premier Automotive Group product, but there is no logical progression...
Also I am open to a 6 Cylinder configuration with a 6 speed manual as long as it gets the desired results. Come on the Acura TL is getting a 6 speed, the Audi S4, both of which are sedans smaller ones at that. Also VVT. I want 0-60 times though in the 6 second range. This is common nowadays for a sports sedan. God knows the new 530 V6 will beat the LS V8 barely but with two cylinders less. I don't care how it happens as long as it does... The NSX, a world class sports car did it with a 3.0 Liter V-6 pumping out only 275 HP (Initially).
I would definitely enjoy the savings on Gas. I have a question for Jim, maybe I have been to engrossed with the V8 which is nice once you have it. I don't want to step back down to a V6, the Passing power on the V8 at 60 -70 mph is unreal. But is Lincoln doing any work on a hotrod LS V6.? Better than the current V6.
Perhaps I missed something over the last several months, but I had heard rumors from two sources that Lincoln was working on a supercharged model for '03. I am not very knowledgeable on the various technologies, but would this be an acceptable performance increase for those on this board? Alternatively, has Lincoln killed this plan? or perhaps it was nothing more than a rumor to begin with?
1. I say let people pretty much post anything they want. Just describe it in the heading and the first sentence or paragraph so people who aren't interested can skim or skip. When I see discussions about speakers, wud, or other things I'm not too interested in, I just skim quickly.
2. Board should be for current owners, past owners, potential owners, or people who drop by to see what LS is about. I want all types dropping in and feeling welcome. Even those who want to complain about their car or dealer issues.
3. I don't think people are whining. Many of us love the underlying platform. I do! We want to see the car improved. We don't want the LS to die a slow, neglected death. Ending up like those GM products that promise a lot initially and then don't deliver or only deliver in last MY after GM announces the vehicle is to be killed (e.g., the Pontiac Fiero).
4. I say do RAISE BOTH CONTENT AND PRICES. The key is NOT to raise MSRP. Why raise it when you are discounting with rebates or cheap financing? Raise the invoice price charged to dealer while holding constant the MSRP. That why Lincoln can recoup its investment, the dealer might not have to discount much (if at all), and buyers get a better product at a reasonable final price. Nothing better for all than to see MSRP held constant while the manufacturer adds a thousand or more dollars of improvements or previously optional equipment. Better to do this than resort to sales gimmicks. Let the car do the talkin' by making a better car or one with higher perceived overall value.
5. Don't forget non-performance improvements as well. Lots of little things and medium things would be useful as well. Use the 2 visor designs so common in many cheaper cars. More interior storage and trunk space (e.g., non-intrusive trunk hinges). Make a single disc CD player standard. Add advanced safety features becoming common in competitors (brake assist, side curtain and rear air bags, pretensioners & force limiters for all seat belts, etc.).
Cranky, no, just passionate people who seem to love their cars and have high expectations. And highly opinionated, but this is their right. I think that people could use a bit more finess in how they express their opinions, but on the other hand, we as the receivers of the info could also respect their differences and agree to diagree if necessary.
I agree with scott8 and ronniepoohs posts. We have to realize that for the price, there is only so much that we can get. We also have to realize, we are a very small segment of the LS population. If I recall, there are over 50K LS's in circulation, yet we are what, several hundred on this board? And, it seems most of this board is men and enthusiasts. I have rarely if ever seen a woman post, yet I have seen several women with LS's. Lest not forget this other segments that the LS targets.
Does the LS need more horsepower, not for me, but I would definitely like to see better gas mileage for the vehicle in it's class. I had noticed in researching the vehicles that there are many other premium vehicles that demand 91 octane, so the LS doesn't appear too disadvanted in this respect. Other than that, for the price I paid, I am completely satisfied and I think there are many others that are not represented on this board that are as well.
And lastly, to Albert, congrats on your purchase. I hope you will be as happy as I to drive the vehicle.
BMW is KNOWN as a performance marque across the board. Period. Always have been. We are talking each and every car they make, even the new X5 SUV is performance oriented. Big time. Thats what they build, thats what they market..from the entry level 323i (325i now?) to the 400hp M5.
Lincoln has a reputation as a luxo, older crowd Marque. How far can Jim market/push performance, without messing up the audiences for the Town Car/Continental crowd? Gotta be confusing. The LS is in a place by itself. Might be hard for Jim to get the support for additional performance for the LS when the rest of Lincoln's products are nowhere in line with the LS. Now that I think about out, Im still shocked that Lincoln ever built the LS to begin with! Glad they did, though...
I have driven both the Jag S-Type 4.0 and the LS8. I own neither. I was incredibly impressed by the power and handling of the Jag (quite surprised, frankly). The LS8 has the same great handling, but lacks in the power department. The power and handling of the Jag just don't deem to match the exterior look of the car. If the LS8 only had that power, it would definitely be on my list of contenders for my next vehicle purchase.
Having owned and driven a 300HP Northstar STS for the last several years, I just can't do away with having that kind of power at my disposal. The Jag/LS definitely out-handle the STS. Feels like you are driving a go-cart! Just get more power into the LS!! Also, I'd like to see (hear) the LS8 get a more "throaty" / sporty exhaust note. It's too muted as is.
In mixed city/highway driving (my normal routine), I get about 19 mpg; and that's with A/C running. In pure highway cruising mode, I've gotten as high as 26 mpg, but speeds below 70 mph. When running at speeds averaging more than 75 mph, my fuel economy drops to 23 mpg. I HAVE NO COMPLAINTS ABOUT THESE NUMBERS. My previous car was a 1990 300ZX, normally aspirated 3.0 liter V6 with a 5 speed manual transmission. My fuel economy was no different in my Z, virtually identical. The Z had a curb weight of 3200 lbs., and only burned premium fuel to boot (typical of engines with high compression ratios).
I would have expected the LS8 to get lower mpg figures than my Z, but that has not been the case. Considering the LS8 weighs in at 3700 lbs., I think the fuel economy is pretty good.
Baloney. Pretty interesting bunch of posts today, for a group of cranky old guys on their way down the tubes.
ronniepooh: Great plan for the LS of the near future, but I agree with lolaj42 re gas mileage. I don't know what I'd do with more HP, but I recall my first test drives last year. Drove a V6 auto first and thought, "this is the car I want". Next day I drove a V8 Sport and thought, "I MUST have this car!" (Which is now in my garage.) I've suggested before: If Ford wants Jaguar to maintain their "superiority", just give the LS the Jag engine, complete with "Jaguar V8" or whatever on the cover. Call it the LS-J or something and make it a $X00 option.
robh3: What's the compression ratio in the Northstar engine? Octane requirements have been discussed here, and it's been mentioned that the Northstar doesn't require premium fuel.
albert19: Congratulations! Was the trip home from the dealership much longer than the trip there? I managed to cover over 100 miles getting my car home from a dealership 5 miles away.
I guess I should preface my request for better gas milage with two points, I live in San Diego, so we have terrible oxygenated gas, and two, the prices are rising, and I don't think the trend will reverse. Hence, the request to make the gas milage more competitive. I am sure all can attest to the rising gas prices, but most have not had to live with them continually rising for two years running.
I live in Tempe, Arizona, so I too am familiar with the oxygenated fuel crap we put in our cars. I'm also disgusted with the prices we're paying for the stuff. Hopefully, the feds will waive the requirement to produce these reformulated blends that vary from state to state so that the refiners can resume making only 3 grades of gasoline for broader regions of the US. With oil prices being as low as they are, I blame the oil companies for gouging the consumer and the feds for allowing them the excuse of making different blends for different states.
Well, I've read (but not completely digested) the posts from the past couple of weeks that I've been travelling. It appears that we're not having fun yet.
To Stan's point, the LS identity is certainly a changeable thing. Many, if not most, of us bought our LS's because of how they handled, or sounded, or looked, or whatever. It certainly wasn't because we all wanted a Lincoln because Lincoln was known for performance automobiles. Given that all the folks we met in January put a lot of effort into creating the LS, I'm also confused as to why the performance image of the LS isn't being put forth more forcefully. Ford bought Volvo? Someone in the executive suite decided the whole LS thing was a mistake? Teaching the geriatric sales staff in the Lincoln dealer network proved to be too big a nut to crack? Who knows? Either way, we may end up with "classic" vehicles in a few years because the momentum generated a year or two ago has been allowed to run into the sand pit.
That said, I still enjoy my car. I bought it for cash and intend to keep it until its reliability becomes unacceptable or until I want to buy something that's more fun. Don't see either happening soon.
Someone observed recently in the forum that Lexus has no manuals and that hasn't hurt their sales. How is it possible to know that? As Dagwood Bumstead once observed, "I'm going to have to stay home some day to see what goes on when I'm not around." Lexus could well have sold more units if they had manuals. I may well have looked much harder at the GS300 if it were offered with a manual.
The LS gas mileage still sucks, compared to similar vehicles, performance or otherwise.
I had the opportunity to rent a 300M Chrysler on my just-completed business trip. Some observations: 1) They must be having trouble selling these things in the quantities they're making them, given that I rent from a GM company (National) -- if National is renting Chrysler stuff, it's because Chrysler's dumping them big-time on the fleet marked, 2) The thing makes a lot of wind noise, 3) the German guy I was travelling with was completely enthralled with it -- I couldn't help wondering what he would have thought of my LS, and 4) It offered the features I remember from my Eagle Vision -- an ambient temp reading that's accurate, good gas mileage, huge interior, a computer that displays useful information in an intuitive fashion. Still, given how I use my car, I'm happy to own my LS. However, if the LS self-destructs at 4.5 years the way my Vison did, my posts will become quite spirited.
Ronniepooh brought up an excellent point. Why did Lincoln ever create the LS if they didn't intend to support it, long-term. I'm anxiously awaiting the answer. . .assuming there is one.
Don't forget about Lexus' IS300. Press hit it very, very hard for not having a manual. Every review I've read pointed out the failure to have a manual. Most called it a glaring error. Dont' think IS300 has burned up the sales charts. Ok, but what would sales be with a manual? Lexus knows they made a mistake. They need a manual and are reportedly adding it this upcoming MY. Wonder how many people considering the IS Series will be upset that Lexus will offer a manual? Once there is a manual, wonder if any car mag will even test the automatic? Many in press have pointed out that former model GS300 could be had with manual. Would be interesting to see what that manual's sales were, esp. as a percentage of total GS300 sales. They dropped it, but have moved the GS series upscale. The GS430 can be optioned to $55,000 and starts at around Jag S-type 4.0 price.
and the odd part is, they could easily make a 35K car perform like a 55K car...while I do not know any actual numbers, Lincoln could easily raise the HP for probably under a few hundred dollars, to 290-300 HP, like the Jag 4.0 engine, and give unbeatable performance...remember, they know we will pay for performance, because the standard benchmarks of most engines (V6) is 175-225 HP, good compared to 5 years ago, but still poor performance overall...if they wanted to put 300 HP engines in ANYTHING, their economies of scale could bring the actual price down to $100 or less, IMHO, but then the exclusivity of high performance would disappear...did I make sense, or did I get lost in my own maze???
I think most of us LS owners are happy with our cars; a lot of us ecstatically so. So why does it sound like we're complaining?
We're proud of LM for introducing such a driver's car into the market. We think they made a GREAT initial entry into this market. That's why we bought one.
Now, we want to be proud that we own a car whose manufacturer is clearly behind the product and pushing the concept forward. We want to have a GREAT temptation to trade in our present LS's for a new version way before we've worn ours out.
We're concerned that LM's advertising seems to hardly mention the LS, and when it does, they seem to avoid any real information. We see nothing but luxo-fluff. Who are they targeting? Luxury is necessary, but not sufficient for a PERFORMANCE vehicle.
We're concerned that LS's competition seem to realize they need to raise the bar. Oh LM.... are you watching? Are you concerned? Do you think you can just coast for another three years by offering new paint color choices?
We're not hearing or seeing the kind of evidence that LM is following through on the great thing they started. Can it be that the upper upper management doesn't understand this market they've put such a good foot in? Hello?
We know the LS management folks are true 'car guys'. We hope their bosses learn from them and SUPPORT them!
reneleblanc I could not agree with you more! The LS is a fantastic handling car and a great LM product and we all want to see it get better and better year after year and not become an Oldsmobile!
I have a 01 V8, just passed the 1000 mile mark, all city driving. The computer shows nothing better than 13.4 mpg. I don't have a heavy foot. Should I go back to the dealer before my scheduled July appointment?
Rene, very nicely put!! (BTW, how do you get the accent over your "e"?) I, too, get the feeling that the LS will be dying out after '05 or '06. I remember in January JR saying that in '03 that there will be a horsepower jump. Maybe there is a lot more black ops stuff going on than we are told. Not even a morsel. That, however, is no excuse for the total lack of advertising for this fine machine. The Continental and Town Car are already established models. They practically sell themselves. I feel like the LS is the red-headed step child to the Blackwood. I understand that the profit margin is MUCH higher on SUV's, but hey, most of us are HARD CORE LS lovers. I will defend my LS to all commers! JR, PLEASE don't let the suits in the Ivory Tower kill this wonderful automobile! It will take many years to achieve the cult following BMW has. Heck, the LS may never reach the bloated pricing (God forbid!) and "status" BMW has. Who cares?!?! Keep improving this automobile while at the same time keeping the price down. This car has EXCEPTIONAL value! That is what will ultimatly send sales through the roof IMHO. Also, ADVERTISE the car! With the growing popularity of NASCAR how about a spot during a race? That would reach a huge audience. wlp2: Not bad mpg for the miles. My V6 auto was getting upper 12's around town at the same mileage. It will improve. These are VERY tight engines and take some breaking-in. Enjoy your new ride!
That average mileage display is worthless. Use the odometer and a calculator with your next fill-up. I have a 00 V8 sport and last time I looked it was displaying 2.4mpg the day after a 120 mi freeway trip down to my Mom's house. The funny thing is that at the same time, the miles-to-empty is usually right on (fill up puts it on close to 300)! If the avg mpg was true my fillup would put the miles to empty on about 60 ;-D
Maybe it's because my driving is 70% highway/30% city, but my car's mileage display is pretty accurate, always within 1 mpg. My V8 got 17-18 when it was new, so 13 in town on a new engine sounds OK. Be patient; my car had almost 5k on it before the performance and gas mileage were up to what they should be. Now, at 15k and no longer using Colorado's winter gasoline, it's averaging 24 mpg. My highway commute is all 2 lane roads and I do quite a bit of passing, usually with a heavy foot. Not because I have to, it's just so doggone much fun!
Comments
Fearful about what we'll read in the upcoming new model year issues of C&D, MT, R&T, etc. Will there be any substantive change for '02 LS? Or will they pass over LS or just talk about minor changes like new color, revised standard equipment, etc? I noticed that the DN article mentioned changes with other Lincoln products but not LS. That doesn't seem to bode well for generating any new buzz or interest for '02 LS.
Had to go to Des Moines. On way back tonight I noticed 5 LS on I-80, going East. Also noticed 1 M5, 1 M3, and 1 330i, each going West. The 3 Bimmers passed me doing 74 mph in my work Sonata GLS. I didn't pass a single LS nor did one pass me. Not sure if that means anything, but would've been nice if an LS had whipped by me like the M5 or M3 did!
And you can be just as certain that BMW, Acura, Lexus, Audi, Infiniti are not going to stand still. So any news on the '02 freshening will be helpful. As for me, I am going to give the Jag X-type a real hard look in August. Had the LS promised a stick for the V8 or more hp/torque for the V6 manual, I would wait.
Fact is, the 5 Series sales for the year are off THE SAME AS the LS.
for January thru April period...
'01 >> 12,769 for LS and 11,929 for 5 Series
'00 >> 16,994 for LS and 16,025 for 5 Series
I can see why Brian left this board, there seems to be a whole lot of whining going on.
I don't think "American Luxury and Performance" is going to alienate the "traditional" LM buyer if it's applied to the LS and selectively to a performance model. Do Crown Victoria buyers look elsewhere because Ford also builds the Cobra ? Do Impala buyers leave the showroom because a Corvette sits in the corner ? Nonsense. And Jag buyers won't leave the showroom because VVT is on an optional LS performance model. I think that current LM buyers are pretty well sold on their Conti or TC before they hit the showroom. And tomorrow's luxury buyers, raised on BMWs, Audis, etc and being alot more knowledgeable about mechanicals, are not going to settle for poor "performance value". The LS must be the performance leader for LM if not for all of Ford in the 4 door, RWD department. Grab the gauntlet before Land Rover eats Ford and BMW recovers from their Land Rover debacle. Lexus and Acura are working hard to make LM's great efforts with the LS a distant memory. Ford has the parts, and with just a minimum amount of R&D, the LS could be a class leader. Ok, I'm putting the soapbox away and donning the Nomex.
I have very minimal noise in the LS. At high speeds, above 80, I can hear some directional wind in the rear doors and a tad in the front, but this is when I am not blasting the radio. Overall, the car is rock solid with no noise or vibrations. I have the V8 and two things to compare over my old 96 Taurus, one, the Taurus was mad noisy, I always noticed it and I had to reseat three of the window seals with screws since they popped out over time. Two, I still have to get used to the LS V8. I was so used to getting in the Taurus and punching the gas when I wanted to go. On the LS, just tapping the accel lurches me forward. I love it.
To bad that one guy gave up the LS for an Audi, I don't think they compare for the offering and value. But, he wanted a manual. I was going to get the LS V8 sport, but after driving the regular, I figured, you have the option to shift into all five gears. I have done this a number of times with ease. Drop to fourth or third on the freeway, or drive on the roads in any gear I choose. It's an easy transition to the next gear once you get used to it. Just my preference I guess.
As for the Licoln incentives, I don't think it cheapens the brand. Of course, in terms of resale, it might hurt the current owners, but times are hard and any marketeer knows that you gotta sell more or the people you employ are in jepordy, dealers included. As a die hard american, I love value, and I think many agree. Not all can afford the expensive options, so many look for the value, which is why I think the type of incentive offered fits very well with most peoples perception of Licoln, a great car at a good value. When I was in Dallas last weekend, I saw two middle aged women driving V6 LS's. I saw another young man driving a V8. They looked truly content in each case. All these sightings in a two day period.
Just my 0.07cents (it was a long post)
Jeff
Looking at heyjewel's posted DN article, Lexus, BMW, and Acura all posted significant increases while both Lincoln and Cadillac suffered significant decreases. For BMW, would be interesting to see what has happened to 3, 5, & 7 Series, as well as their SUV. New 3 Series is a big enhancement. Is it cutting into some 5 Series sales? I'd be surprised if it isn't. Price of their SUV is in heart of 5 Series territory. Guessing it, too, has cut into 5 Series sales. But the net effect has been an increase in total BMW sales, not a big decrease as with Lincoln.
Will be interesting to see if new Blackwood and revised TC & Navigator can reverse Lincoln's sales trend. If there are no substantive enhancements to LS for '02, guessing LS won't be the vehicle to pull Lincoln out of its sales doldrums. Not with Jag introducing the hot new X-type, Acura improving 3.2TL, Cadillac to revamp Catera, etc. Will LS sales be foreced to rely on rebates, subsidized financing, and fleet sales for '02? '03?
I don't know I just feel like the DEW98 Platform has become the World Platform for the other vehicles but not the LS.. All the visions of Grandeur quickly fell to the Way Side..... No WorldWide Deployment, No 2002 Manual V8, etc...
It has become apparent the LS8 will not be the BMW Killer we all wanted it to be... Neither will the JAG I surmise... The JAG is LUXI the LS is the one Slated to Dethrone BMW but it is not to be... Could, But Won't. Is Lincoln Really a competitive company, or does it have monopolistic trends in niche markets like the 60, and 70 year old markets.. Jim Made a good point at LS MANIA in January When the Age group who is buying the TC and CONTI are increasing in AGE, it doesn't take long to figure out that market will soon disappear. Well The LS Owner might have bought the First one just like Lincoln set out to do, to Tap the younger market 30 somethings (26 in my case), However, I think they will be seeing my market disappear in about 2 years...Not at 70 plus like they would like.
Maybe its all a part of the Strategy which it does appear this way, Get them into a Lincoln Then, Entice them to move up to a Jag, or whichever brand is next up the totem pole. That is great and all, but the Fact is Different Brands and cars especially have different feel... The Jag is a little on the Feminine, and Luxurious type. The new Image the LS was portraying and the Whole American Luxury thing is where I want to be. Not the jag....
I am sorry I am whining but I am somewhat of a perfectionist, and the LS has so much potential. It seems simple to perfect it...
First you get the customer, then you keep them coming back for more... (Retention) I believe is the word.. Jim I hope you are just holding out on us, I want to come back so bad but from what I have heard its not to be...
Regards,
Airwolf1000
You guys should listen to the Song Download it in MP3 format, or let me know at durangokit@yahoo.com and I will MP3 it and send it to you so you know what I am talking about. It is nice...
Regards,
Airwolf1000
I would only point out that the market in which the LS competes is probably more aggressive and faster moving than any market Ford has ever been in. Further, the LS was a "clean sheet of paper" product in early 1999. Were are only in the second model year. Ford has never had a reputation for taking many chances and I don't think we should be terribly surprised that we don't yet have a 540 killer.
Frankly, I would be surprised if there is ever a V8/Manual. However, I will bet dollars to doughnuts that more power is on the way. Like someone mentioned earlier, the GS430 Lexus somehow struggles along without a manual. I haven't seen any ads for it in my market lately either. Wouldn't you be tickled pink if the LS could run wheel to wheel with a GS430, have the Lexus refinement, and still cost less? That is very doable in my humble opinion.
The current LS does a lot of things very well but there are trade-offs. Maybe, at some point, there should be more of a difference between the sport and non-sport models. Maybe focus the non-sport more to the luxury set with plenty of wood, leather, sound insulation, and gee-gaws. Maybe the sport should be more carbon fiber trim, supercharged engines, minimal weight. With two versions of the LS focused on their respective niches, there would be less need to compromise the product.
Bruce
brucelinc, #2462: As regards Lexus GS430, check out the June issue of Motor Trend, p. 59. Quick test headline reads "More cubes, more peformance, more lux for the edgy GS." Brakes like a Corvette Z06 (60-0 mph in 108 ft). Accelerates like a 540i manual (0-60 mph in 5.9 secs). Base price is $47K and their tested one had an MSRP of $54K. Too rich for me.
The new program is wonderful. The automatic transmission (non-SST) never will shift like a Z-F on an Aston Martin, but it is now very predictable and refined. I can use the stick to manually shift down through the gears for engine-braking, and the car doesn't lurch or hop or free-wheel. The car engages reverse, and forward quickly and expectedly now every time. (It was a valet who nearly backed the LS through a wall by gunning the engine waiting for reverse to engage that convinced me to get the re flash done).
The transmission always shifted well going through the gears in acceleration, and I notice no change there. Going up hills in stop and go traffic, the transmission doesn't seem to hunt for a gear as much. All in all, after a year and a half ownership, I still enjoy driving the car, and think the transmission programming is now "invisible."
Interestingly, the re flash seems to have changed the manner the headlight auto-on works. I always leave it on about a 10 second delay - off. Now, the sensor seems a bit more quick to turn on the lights when I am stopped under an overpass, and then holds them on a bit longer in bright sunlight until it turns them off automatically.
I'm not nuts - this feature really did change after the reflash! Must be the way the MY 2001 cars are set up.
People who are unhappy with Lincoln because their LS has quality problems are right to complain and expect more for their money. People who are unhappy that their $35k car doesn't perform like a $55k car should have known better, and bought something else.
Besides, what do you do with a BMW after you've killed it?
Scott (protective gear in place)
"While we complain, why no manual in this sportiest Mercedes?"
"If we were offering it, real demand would be less than 5 percent," said Zimmerman. "We
would never recover our costs."
Unfortunately it always comes down to money.
"I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I guess I haven't seen the downward spiral you are talking about."
1)More HP. Plain and simple. 210hp and 252hp was par for the automotive course in the Spring/Summer of 1999 when the LS was introduced, but now its 2001. For 2002 those numbers are well below par for this segment. The LS has to have at least 230-240hp for the V6 and at least 280plus for the V8. Is adding VVT to the LS engines THAT cost prohibitive? Jim, is it REALLY that important to keep HP differences so extreme between the S class Jag and LS? Note the HP differences between the Maxima and its bog brother Infiniti I30. Exact same engines, I30 is the upper class version of the Max, and the HP figures are usually only 5 or so HP apart, yet they both have been selling well for years. Max 20th anniversary edition even has that 5hp more added.
2)Sorry, but no need to waste the money on the stick shift version. Take the money and improve on the current automatic transmission. Make it shift 35% faster. Quiet all the critics(ie Edmunds own reviewers) of the current auto transmission, and do something so the automatic trannys dont sap as much power as they currently do. Dont Vette's automatic transmissions get almost the same performance as a manual transmission Vette?
3)Do something to improve gas mileage, or, if you can keep the same mileage with the HP improvements mentioned in my #1 above, then you are ok.
4)Thats it. The suspension is perfect. I now have 32,000 miles on my 2000 LS, and the suspension is STILL fine, shocks dont feel worn at all, and the balance/neutral handling is still tremendous, especially for a Lincoln. (EVERY LS owner needs to push their LS handling to the limits at least once...you gotta understand what you have...take it to a wide open stadium parking lot one weekend and run it hard. This thing is nothing short of BMW handling).
5)Oh, and one more thing. If you do all of the above, you must keep the price where it is NOW. Nope. Cant charge a dime more. Ok, maybe $100 more. But you gotta keep sucking in more people with the value factor before you can creep up the price. BMW has the reputation that can carry the high prices. Lincoln doesnt.
Comments anyone?
I was thumbing through the Jan, 2000 edition of MT last night and they had a long term wrap-up of the 98 GS400, which was a new model at the time. Raved about the performance but 43% of owner responses indicated mechanical problems. 10% complained of steering vibrations and 16% indicated problems with tires. They also mentioned at least 3 recalls or TSBs. Sound familiar? Spending 55k doesn't guarantee satisfaction.
One last thing: I don't think it is surprising that not all LS owners will buy another LS. I agree that if your expectations are a 540 killer, by all means ante up another 15 - 20 thousand and go for something else. I think the current LS is very competitive in it's price range and the potential is there to improve it and keep it competitive without much of a price increase.
Bruce
Bruce
1) How many pedals on the floor?
2) How many feet do you have?
3) How many feet do you use while driving?
Think about it.
Maybe the Mercury Marauder would be the choice for Auto fans. But if it's a Cobra drivetrain in a Crown Vic body, it will need some kind of suspension transplant. I drove a Marquis De Sade a few weeks ago and the suspension was downright clunky compared to the LS.
To Albert: Congratulations!! Sounds like you were treated right! You may not have as much time to contribute to this board because you will be looking for excuses to drive somewhere instead!
Bruce
Also I am open to a 6 Cylinder configuration with a 6 speed manual as long as it gets the desired results. Come on the Acura TL is getting a 6 speed, the Audi S4, both of which are sedans smaller ones at that. Also VVT. I want 0-60 times though in the 6 second range. This is common nowadays for a sports sedan. God knows the new 530 V6 will beat the LS V8 barely but with two cylinders less. I don't care how it happens as long as it does... The NSX, a world class sports car did it with a 3.0 Liter V-6 pumping out only 275 HP (Initially).
I would definitely enjoy the savings on Gas. I have a question for Jim, maybe I have been to engrossed with the V8 which is nice once you have it. I don't want to step back down to a V6, the Passing power on the V8 at 60 -70 mph is unreal. But is Lincoln doing any work on a hotrod LS V6.? Better than the current V6.
Regards,
Airwolf1000
2. Board should be for current owners, past owners, potential owners, or people who drop by to see what LS is about. I want all types dropping in and feeling welcome. Even those who want to complain about their car or dealer issues.
3. I don't think people are whining. Many of us love the underlying platform. I do! We want to see the car improved. We don't want the LS to die a slow, neglected death. Ending up like those GM products that promise a lot initially and then don't deliver or only deliver in last MY after GM announces the vehicle is to be killed (e.g., the Pontiac Fiero).
4. I say do RAISE BOTH CONTENT AND PRICES. The key is NOT to raise MSRP. Why raise it when you are discounting with rebates or cheap financing? Raise the invoice price charged to dealer while holding constant the MSRP. That why Lincoln can recoup its investment, the dealer might not have to discount much (if at all), and buyers get a better product at a reasonable final price. Nothing better for all than to see MSRP held constant while the manufacturer adds a thousand or more dollars of improvements or previously optional equipment. Better to do this than resort to sales gimmicks. Let the car do the talkin' by making a better car or one with higher perceived overall value.
5. Don't forget non-performance improvements as well. Lots of little things and medium things would be useful as well. Use the 2 visor designs so common in many cheaper cars. More interior storage and trunk space (e.g., non-intrusive trunk hinges). Make a single disc CD player standard. Add advanced safety features becoming common in competitors (brake assist, side curtain and rear air bags, pretensioners & force limiters for all seat belts, etc.).
I agree with scott8 and ronniepoohs posts. We have to realize that for the price, there is only so much that we can get. We also have to realize, we are a very small segment of the LS population. If I recall, there are over 50K LS's in circulation, yet we are what, several hundred on this board? And, it seems most of this board is men and enthusiasts. I have rarely if ever seen a woman post, yet I have seen several women with LS's. Lest not forget this other segments that the LS targets.
Does the LS need more horsepower, not for me, but I would definitely like to see better gas mileage for the vehicle in it's class. I had noticed in researching the vehicles that there are many other premium vehicles that demand 91 octane, so the LS doesn't appear too disadvanted in this respect. Other than that, for the price I paid, I am completely satisfied and I think there are many others that are not represented on this board that are as well.
And lastly, to Albert, congrats on your purchase. I hope you will be as happy as I to drive the vehicle.
Jeff
Lincoln has a reputation as a luxo, older crowd Marque. How far can Jim market/push performance, without messing up the audiences for the Town Car/Continental crowd? Gotta be confusing. The LS is in a place by itself. Might be hard for Jim to get the support for additional performance for the LS when the rest of Lincoln's products are nowhere in line with the LS. Now that I think about out, Im still shocked that Lincoln ever built the LS to begin with! Glad they did, though...
Having owned and driven a 300HP Northstar STS for the last several years, I just can't do away with having that kind of power at my disposal. The Jag/LS definitely out-handle the STS. Feels like you are driving a go-cart! Just get more power into the LS!! Also, I'd like to see (hear) the LS8 get a more "throaty" / sporty exhaust note. It's too muted as is.
ROB
I bought my rear wheel drive LS manual because it was a rear wheel drive manual.
I would have expected the LS8 to get lower mpg figures than my Z, but that has not been the case. Considering the LS8 weighs in at 3700 lbs., I think the fuel economy is pretty good.
ronniepooh: Great plan for the LS of the near future, but I agree with lolaj42 re gas mileage. I don't know what I'd do with more HP, but I recall my first test drives last year. Drove a V6 auto first and thought, "this is the car I want". Next day I drove a V8 Sport and thought, "I MUST have this car!" (Which is now in my garage.) I've suggested before: If Ford wants Jaguar to maintain their "superiority", just give the LS the Jag engine, complete with "Jaguar V8" or whatever on the cover. Call it the LS-J or something and make it a $X00 option.
robh3: What's the compression ratio in the Northstar engine? Octane requirements have been discussed here, and it's been mentioned that the Northstar doesn't require premium fuel.
albert19: Congratulations! Was the trip home from the dealership much longer than the trip there? I managed to cover over 100 miles getting my car home from a dealership 5 miles away.
Jeff (a cranky young guy ;-)
OK, I'm off my soap box; donning the nomex.
To Stan's point, the LS identity is certainly a changeable thing. Many, if not most, of us bought our LS's because of how they handled, or sounded, or looked, or whatever. It certainly wasn't because we all wanted a Lincoln because Lincoln was known for performance automobiles. Given that all the folks we met in January put a lot of effort into creating the LS, I'm also confused as to why the performance image of the LS isn't being put forth more forcefully. Ford bought Volvo? Someone in the executive suite decided the whole LS thing was a mistake? Teaching the geriatric sales staff in the Lincoln dealer network proved to be too big a nut to crack? Who knows? Either way, we may end up with "classic" vehicles in a few years because the momentum generated a year or two ago has been allowed to run into the sand pit.
That said, I still enjoy my car. I bought it for cash and intend to keep it until its reliability becomes unacceptable or until I want to buy something that's more fun. Don't see either happening soon.
Someone observed recently in the forum that Lexus has no manuals and that hasn't hurt their sales. How is it possible to know that? As Dagwood Bumstead once observed, "I'm going to have to stay home some day to see what goes on when I'm not around." Lexus could well have sold more units if they had manuals. I may well have looked much harder at the GS300 if it were offered with a manual.
The LS gas mileage still sucks, compared to similar vehicles, performance or otherwise.
I had the opportunity to rent a 300M Chrysler on my just-completed business trip. Some observations: 1) They must be having trouble selling these things in the quantities they're making them, given that I rent from a GM company (National) -- if National is renting Chrysler stuff, it's because Chrysler's dumping them big-time on the fleet marked, 2) The thing makes a lot of wind noise, 3) the German guy I was travelling with was completely enthralled with it -- I couldn't help wondering what he would have thought of my LS, and 4) It offered the features I remember from my Eagle Vision -- an ambient temp reading that's accurate, good gas mileage, huge interior, a computer that displays useful information in an intuitive fashion. Still, given how I use my car, I'm happy to own my LS. However, if the LS self-destructs at 4.5 years the way my Vison did, my posts will become quite spirited.
Ronniepooh brought up an excellent point. Why did Lincoln ever create the LS if they didn't intend to support it, long-term. I'm anxiously awaiting the answer. . .assuming there is one.
Bob
We're proud of LM for introducing such a driver's car into the market. We think they made a GREAT initial entry into this market. That's why we bought one.
Now, we want to be proud that we own a car whose manufacturer is clearly behind the product and pushing the concept forward. We want to have a GREAT temptation to trade in our present LS's for a new version way before we've worn ours out.
We're concerned that LM's advertising seems to hardly mention the LS, and when it does, they seem to avoid any real information. We see nothing but luxo-fluff. Who are they targeting? Luxury is necessary, but not sufficient for a PERFORMANCE vehicle.
We're concerned that LS's competition seem to realize they need to raise the bar. Oh LM.... are you watching? Are you concerned? Do you think you can just coast for another three years by offering new paint color choices?
We're not hearing or seeing the kind of evidence that LM is following through on the great thing they started. Can it be that the upper upper management doesn't understand this market they've put such a good foot in? Hello?
We know the LS management folks are true 'car guys'. We hope their bosses learn from them and SUPPORT them!
wlp2: Not bad mpg for the miles. My V6 auto was getting upper 12's around town at the same mileage. It will improve. These are VERY tight engines and take some breaking-in. Enjoy your new ride!