I think I'm going to take a hiatus from this Edmunds forum. I suspect it is probably me, but I miss the "old" days when this forum wasn't so petty and had a positive energy to it.
The Community Leader spot on this forum is up for grabs as of right now, and if anyone would like to volunteer to take my place please let KarenS know.
I'm sure that this post will either inspire flames or cause retrospect, but so be it. It will be without me. I will be continuing my work on LLSOC so if you need me you know where to find me at www.llsoc.com
How can we be so consistently stupid to respond to his negativity. Well, he is going to have to supply his own responses as far as I am concerned. I, too, have had it. I thought he had reformed, but the minute someone doesn't admire his reasoning, much less disagree with him, off comes the mask and there is the guy we knew was really there all along. The sad part is that I am pretty sure he can't help himself.
Maybe you guys need to take a break. Lighten up. I haven't been mean or out of bounds in any recent post. Like many others here I'd like to see Lincoln really improve the breed by making an LS8 manual. I get flamed. That makes me negative? Just because I won't reflectively attack BMW that makes me negative? I've said lots of good things about the LS. I also pointed out its flaw, as well as those of dealers. That makes me negative? I'd rather be honest than sit around saying only "nice things".
If Lincoln is listening in to this they might think serious LS owners are just as, if not more, concerned about "wud" and speakers than serious driving performance. And we wonder why we're seeing dealers adding garish tops or whitewall tires? Why bother with a 5- or 6-speed manual LS8 if they can tinker with the interior fabric, add new colors, or find another speaker supplier? Nothin' inherently wrong. That would be cheaper. But guess I'm in the minority that would rather see the LS end up more like a GS300/400 or 5 Series competitor than a Catera or Aurora or 300M competitor. Just hope LS isn't fated to end up like Mark VII/VIII; so much potential that never was truly brought to fruition.
Love this car. Drives very smooth and handle great, but as you owners already know interior space is well not a plus for this vehicle. So my wife has decided to sell our LS in favor of a midsize SUV. Anybody interested? Check out the car at http://www.aurx.net/lincoln
From what I understand there are two licenses in Europe, one for manuals and one for manuals. I believe, for whatever reason, the auto license costs more. I know that when I was in Japan in the late 70's, a license cost around $5,000 plus the instruction! They also must purchase a new engine around 30k miles.
We do need a break, maybe not from the board, but maybe from overbearing posts. When there is no free exchange of ideas, but only an zealot who expresses his view as the only correct view, maybe we do need a break.
Because we don't necessarily follow the dictates like sheep, we are the ones who are idiots? Some of us might be able to understand compromise and know that the future might hold better things than the present. We might also realize that the constant whining and phony bravado will not bring about changes that quickly.
Honesty can be a difficult thing to achieve. It should always be done with humility and without obfuscation. One man's honesty is another man's oppression, and it often times becomes difficult to know which is which.
Recent posts on all boards have shown that there is only one ideal way to go, and I don't subscribe to it.
Different types of vehicles meet different needs. You always give up something to get something else. We got our LS for long trips (with two people). Plenty of space for that. It is extremely comfortable and great fun to drive.
We have a '96 Taurus wagon for hauling and around town errands. It actually has more useable space than most SUVs. A lot of SUVs have quite a bit of height, but really don't have much length for storage, and they drive like (ug!) TRUCKS!
If you need a LOT of space, look at the vans.
IMHO, most SUVs have a VERY narrow functional range. If it fits your need, fine, but if you want broader functionality, a good station wagon gives more car-like ride with better handling and economy with very practical hauling space. Think about it.
Uh oh, let's throw another topic into the dicussion: CV transmissions. I predict that with fuel prices getting higher, it won't be long before Detroit is forced to offer CVTees (Continuosly Variable Transmissions) in vehicles.
I went to a SAE toptec on CVT years ago (when I worked for another company). Back then they were touting a 10% fuel economy improvement over manual transmissions. CV trannys have one drawback (that I can think of); they are limited by the amount of torque they can transfer through their belt. There are Torroidal CV transmissions in industry that could handle more (I remember something like 700 N*m) that were being aimed at the truck market. I don't know if any domestic manufacturer has plans to use one in production. Several Japanese companies already have (Subaru, Honda, Nissan). Over in Japan Nissan produces a 2.0L sportscar that has a CVT with three modes: 1. CVT mode (runs just like a snowmobile 2. Auto trans mimic mode 3. 7 speed *manual* mode (clutchless, of course) If the U.S. started to put CV trannies into cars, we could have the best of ALL worlds - Better fuel economy, automatic function for city traffic, and a manual mode to squirt around canyon roads with. I would buy one in a heartbeat!
What's holding us back? Probably cost and durability concerns...
Also, as fuel prices continue to rise, we're going to be pushed far beyond the choice of a manual transmission to increase fuel economy (FE). There's not much of a difference between today's autos and manuals with respect to FE. What you're going to see is more alternate fueled vehicles popping up. Hybrid electric vehicles are already sold in the U.S. by Toyota and Honda. Ford announced that they will produce a hybrid version of the Escape (city FE about 45 mpg).
Been out of town for awhile but would like to add my 3 cents worth. Many of us on this board are passionate car enthusiasts and we have strong opinions. I think that is a good thing. One nice thing about the LS is that when equipped properly, it can appeal to enthusiasts who have different tastes. For example, I bought a pretty much loaded non-sport V8 because I lean a bit more to the "luxury" side of the spectrum. I wanted the V8 acceleration but also the sound, feel, smoothness and refinement that I found lacking in the V6 manual. However, I would strongly defend anyone who prefers a V6 manual with no options, and the lightest curb weight to maximize handling. It is just a difference of taste - no one has to be wrong if they made an informed choice.
I think the current LS does about everything pretty well but isn't exceptional at any one thing. It is a compromise. One problem I see is that Lincoln doesn't really have a model to move up to. Other than more room, a Town Car or Continental will not do much that an LS can't do better. Eventually, like Giowa, I would like to see the LS focus on the same type of buyer that the GS300/400 does. I would also like to see the Continental more comparable with the LS 430, et al.
I own a 2000 06/00 build purchased on December 15, 2000. I have read the posts about vibration and tested at various speeds. I have not noticed a vibration of any significance that might be related to an inherent problem (nor have I observed any of the other problems posted here). I think that many posts reflect the differences we demonstrate in our individualism and in our expectations, tastes and preferences in the autos we buy. I could not be happier with my LS and see no great need to offer suggestions to make this a better automobile and if it is made better I am certainly not going to commit to buy it. I suspect that in addition to the real problem of vibration, there are some with lower tolerance levels for such things. I for one respect that difference. However, I am not inclined to embrace an inherent vibration problem with the LS. Now, my 1990 Thunderbird SC has a real vibration problem. I have often asked for a balance at a higher than normal highway speed which seems to make a positive difference.
I also would have to agree with giowa and brucelinc. I don't know their ages, but as for me i'm in my early 30's with a V8 LS and I would love to see performance and quality that rivals Lexus, BMW or Mercedes. If Lincoln can do that, I will be sold as a Lincoln customer for life. If anyone has test drove a Lexus GS400, they know no manual is needed to get that thing up to speed.
There are a few things I will not tolerate in an automobile and wind noise, rattles, and vibration are at the top of my "intolerable" list. I think I am more sensitive than most to vibration. It troubles me when I hear about LS owners having vibration problems. With rentals and dealer provided test drives, I have driven 6 or 7 different LSs. Some have had more 1700 RPM drone than others, one had excessive wind noise around a back door, but NONE had vibration at any speed. I do not doubt that some buyers have this problem, but I do not believe that it is inherent to the LS design. I have never read any complaints about vibration in any of the magazine road tests either.
My point is if you have vibration problems, it is not normal and there should be a remedy. They don't all do it!!
Unfortunately, it appears that Ford is positioning Jaguar directly against BMW in terms of vehicle size, performance, quality and price. I fear that the Lincoln models are destined to be "almost" cars. That is Ford marketing fears that if a Lincoln had as much power, fit & finshish quality and gaget options, too many customers would buy Lincolns instead of Jag's and cost the coproration lots of profit. This damn's Lincolns to always be "almost as good (but not quite) as a good as a BMW, Audi, Jag or whatever. This strategy works great with corporate brand loyal customers but leaves your left side open for a competitor to do and end run around you.
I wouldn't throw in the towel yet folks. When the LS was introduced, the LS8 compared favorably against the BMW 528. In fact it compared so well, BMW 528 sales fell, and has now compelled them to introduce the 530. Sure the 530 may best the current LS in performance, but certainly not in terms of price and/or value. I have no doubt that Lincoln will "sweeten" the LS in the near future, and probably best the BMW 530 in both performance and price.
As far a Jaguar is concerned, most of the car mags have favored the LS over the Jag S-type as far a chasis design is concerned, as well as overall passenger comfort. However, no one can argue that the S-type offers better engines. It's pretty hard to tell how Ford Motor Company plans to share their various platforms accross their various brands, but I would bet that you haven't seen or heard the last from the "new" Lincoln.
Stopped at the local Lumber store last night and picked up 5 - 10 ft. X 1" X 4" boards last night and fit them with the trunk closed! Of course if they would have been about 5 inches shorter, they wouldn't have had to sit up on the passenger side dash... oh well!
Trunk Light: I wired my directly to the factory trunk light. (Electricians would frown at how I did it...)
Tire Vibration: I do experience a slight tire vibration for the first mile or so at speeds of 55/60 when driving after the LS has sat overnight. I believe the tires are just flattening slightly/out of round after sitting for a while. Not a problem!
Can you give us a little more detail on how you wired the trunk light, what you used for the 2nd light, placement, etc.
Interesting take on the vibration problem. Before I test drove the car, my friend, who had been the shop foreman, told me that the tires take a flat spot after sitting overnight. What he was telling me was to ignore any initial tire vibration and assured me that it would go when they warmed up. I have an '00 V6 Sport and have never had any vibration problems at all. On certain road surfaces, there is a barely perceptible "nibble." I think this is more a function of the 50 series tires, the highly tactile steering on the LS and the chassis. Since it doesn't occur on all roads, I ignore it. Car is rock solid @ 90 mph. Haven't gone any faster. There's no place to do it where I generally drive.
That folding seat sure does come in handy at times doesn't it?
I agree with lolaj42. The hard stuff has already been done. The platform is great. The engine/transmission basics are fine. The size is right on the money. It would seem that only the easy stuff remains - VVT and displacement increase, revise gear ratios, upgrade interior with more storage and a little higher quality materials, get rid of stupid barn-door trunk hinges, V8/manual option. I hope they do it. (and a few other little things)
The Firestones (like many tires) have a nylon ply that help them achieve the speed rating. Nylon is notorious for thump and vibration until warmed up. I agree, gkarg, not a problem. Please don't anyone take offense at this but is it possible that some of these vibration concerns are simply the normal road feel of a stiff chassis, 50 series tires, and firm stabilizer bars?
I echo reneblanc's words. How depressing! Far be it from me to throw fuel on what is probably already a fire in your home, but I also agree with Rene on the station wagon issue. Have you considered it at all? Do you really NEED an SUV or do you just need additional cargo room? If you feel you need/want AWD, there are some really nice European AWD SW's available, e.g., Audi Avant, Volvo. I think the VW Passat wagon is also available with "4Motion" AWD. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that. With the German SW's especially, you could have the additional cargo room for your expanding family AND the handling that you will surely miss from the LS. The best of both worlds? IMHO, it's also a lot "cooler" than driving a mini van or putting up with a truck on a daily basis.
When I transport my daughter's stuff to and from college, we rent an Explorer. The only reason we can get away with this is that we can fold down the larger portion of the back seat. With the seats up, Rene is correct, there is not that much space back there. Unless of course, you are looking at Suburban, Expedition or Excursion. Also, with the SW, the gas mileage will be better and you won't be blocking anybody's view from behind. I was recently in Italy. It looked like 50% of the population was driving SW's. They are definitely making a comeback.
Just my .02. Good luck with whatever you decide on as well as with the new addition to your family.
I did that. The hot to hot and ground to ground. I have the light mounted to the body yet it is isolated. They will both work when I initally hook it up. When the trunk is closed for more than 15 seconds neither light will work. If I disconnect either light, the other will work. I wired the light directly to the plug for the existing light. As Artie said, please post detailed instructions.
FYI, for those of you who may have had troubles with your windows...
Check out page 103 of the June 2001 issue of Road & Track. Story on '91-'99 Acura NSX. Excerpt: "Be sure the side windows go up and down. No electric gremlins here, just a little plastic part in the regulator that frequently breaks, causing the window to fall down. It's a $600 fix after it breaks. But for around $100 per window, including installation, you can make a pre-emptive repair using San Diego-based Dali Racings 'Window Regulator Fix-it Thingies.'"
During the last couple of months I have read some postings regarding the transmission on the LS. I have also read where the dealerships have done something to the tranny to make it respond a-little better. Is this something a new buyer needs to remind the dealership about or is the buyer to assume the factory has taken care of the issue? If the buyer needs to remind the dealership, can anyone out there tell me what else I should be aware of with regards to changes to be made by the dealership per the factory...Thanks
Haven't posted here for a while but have a few insights that might be worth it.
1. Finally got the dealership to replace my front brake pads as they were squealing like a stuck pig every time I hit them. (Good News) 2. I worked the NY Auto Show and had a great time. It was interesting talking to customers about the LS and seeing the look on their faces after I gave my talk and then mentioned that I don't work for F/L but was a customer who thought a lot about the car. 3. I've been working w/ Jim Rogers and his staff about some other problems I've had (air flow from the dash when the heater is on floor only). Please know, from my personal experience, that Jim and his staff truly do care but are swamped with work and it is a typical 10-14 day turnaround before you hear from someone.
If you're buying a 2001 LS V8 that was built after 09/27/2000 or a V6 that was built after 10/17/2000, your car will have the most current software and no action is required by you or the dealer.
Early-build 2001 cars with build dates between July 2000 and the dates shown above have the next-to-latest software release; the only concern is a possible delayed downshift at 20 MPH. (I have one of these early-build '01 V8s, and I haven't noticed a delay, so I haven't had the update done--I haven't found it necessary.)
If you're buying a new or used 2000 model, you will probably want to have the software update done. For more detailed information, go to the Lincoln LS Owners Club site at http://www.llsoc.com and click on the Recalls/TSBs link. You'll find the TSB (technical service bulletin) number that designates the software update. Your dealer should be able to take it from there.
A friend of mine has a coworker who bought an '01 3-series BMW. (I don't know which model.) A couple of weeks ago, guess what happened? One of the windows crashed & wouldn't go back up. It's not a unique problem, apparently. A side note: While the car was at the dealership for the window repair, a service tech managed to run the car into a wall, doing a whole bunch of front-end damage. ACK! This is a second-hand story, but the source is reliable...
I think a Sport-equipped LS8 wagon with 300 horsepower and a much-improved stereo would be a killer vehicle. Several months ago someone posted a link to a computer-generated photo of an LS wagon, and it looked great to me. Assuming the handling dynamics wouldn't change, I would definitely consider buying such a car--the added utility would make it an extremely nice package. While I seriously doubt that Lincoln would ever consider an LS wagon, it's interesting to note that wagons appear to be high on Jaguar's list of possible future configurations. The Jag folks don't want to get into the SUV business, so a Jaguar Estate is a real possibility.
I did a round trip to Dallas over the weekend. With three adults and a full complement of luggage, my LS got 22.24 MPG on the return trip (running a fairly steady 78 on the Interstate); that's the best mileage I've seen so far. It was a very comfortable trip--the LS seats are great, and we had just enough room. Probably wouldn't have had enough space for another person, though. (Note to Artie: The roads here are no prize, either. I-35 is getting pounded by NAFTA trucks and LOTS of cars, and it's deteriorating badly.)
In Dallas, we added a couple of teenagers to the back seat for a dinner run. Fortunately, the restaurant was only about a 10-mile trip; the LS is NOT a five-passenger car, and I'm glad I was driving.
I tried to pay attention to any possible vibrations on the trip; didn't notice anything. After 8+ months and 9K miles, vibration has not been a problem for me.
Can someone give me the ball joint torque specs again for the 2000 LS? My son is a Mercedes tech (sorry) and I can get him to check them, but I need to know the specs. Thanks.
It's been awhile since I posted here, my LS V8 lease is up next month and I was looking for a new vehicle. I definately wanted a manual, I do not drive in rush hour traffic and wanted to pick my own gears. The LS is a great car, but for me the v6 manual does not compare to the v8 in refinement. The v8 auto trans is not as sporty as it should be, but the car handles so well, it was tough finding something better. At first, I ordered an jaguar x-type 3.0, dealer thought it would be priced at 36 to 37k, it came in priced at 42k, without even the sport package. I drove also drove a bmw 525 with tip, it was much slower than the LS, but price higher, but the bmw auto was very quick reacting on downshifts, much better than the LS's, but ultimately I ended up with an Audi S4 Avant, 6-speed manual, what a fantastic ride! I like the manual because it does not downshift in the middle of a corner because I give it a little extra gas, when powering through. IF only there was that much talked about v8 manual I would be driving one right now, or even the v6 5 speed with vvt. A lost Lincoln customer. Jim W
Hi, I am thinking about purchasing either Lincoln LS or SAAB 9-5. Can anyone tell me if noise(road, wind, engine) is ever a problem in a LS(whether V6 or V8). Thank you.
I have owned two full-size rear-wheel drive Volvo station wagons since 1989. These are NOT the smaller FWD Volvo weenie wagons produced since 1998, when the great 740-760-960-90v body RWD wagons were discontinued. Now you can buy a Volvo wagon with FWD and a Buick transmission that is made by a Ford-owned company! Anyway, if you want a rock-solid SW that can carry a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood (with the back door slightly open), or 10 ft antenna sections and still hold 3 people, or 7 people with the optional pop-up rear facing kiddie seat, try to find a used 96-98 960/V90 wagon. Volvo has made the station wagon an art. No one sells more wagons as Volvo does as a % of its total sales. Between the sedan and the wagon, Volvo wagons enjoy higher resale value. These last Volvo RWD wagons have a straight-six designed by Porsche and an automatic built in Japan by Aisan, who has traditionally supplied Volvo with great automatics. Your mileage will be as good as a van, and the safety and comfort will be superior. Because of an articulated hood hinge, you can get to any underhood component with ease. It has distributorless ignition and plenty of room on both sides of the engine. You can probably get a low mileage 96 965 for less than 15k. My 965 is the truck in the family that the wife likes to drive.
I have a 2000 LS V8 Sport, and have to say it's very quite. The only problem is that since its so quite and smooth driving, I have to keep my eye on the speedometer all the time. The faster you go the smoother it gets.
Note to Dennis: I would strongly recommend that you take your car to a Lincoln dealer for this check. I'm sure your son is completely qualified, but the only way to get your car certified as having had the recall work done is to have it done at a Lincoln (or Ford or Mercury) dealership.
If Lincoln's records don't indicate that the recall work was done, then from a legal standpoint the assumption would be that you haven't had it done. If a problem ever arose, the responsibility would be yours. Also, the dealer will know for sure whether your car is affected by the recall, and will have any factory parts that may be required.
With that in mind, here's the answer to your question (The following is copied verbatim from the November 2000 edition of the LLSOC newsletter):
"2. Recall Information
Owners of 2000/2001 LSs are being notified of a recall concerning possible improper torque settings for front ball joint nuts. The threshold torque limit is 59 ft/lbs. Any less and your ball joints will be replaced. Greater than 59 ft/lbs and a satisfactory inspection of the ball joints and they tighten the ball joint nuts to 111 ft/lbs. Contact your dealer to determine if your LS is involved in the recall. If it is you shouldn't have to wait for the letter from Lincoln before having it checked out."
You can find the NHTSA description of the recall by going to the LLSOC site at http://www.llsoc.com and clicking on the Recalls/TSBs link. The recall affects cars manufactured from August 1998 to September 2000.
Thanks for reposting that link. What a sharp car that would be, and what a stealthmobile! With an extra dose of horsepower it would be a 540iT competitor for thousands of dollars less.
Unfortunately, wagons are "out" and sport-utes are "in", so the Lincoln version of the Explorer will be the next thing to hit the showroom. I'm sure it'll be a nice vehicle, but I'd still rather see the 2003 LS SportWagon.
Interesting article on low Mercedes Benz quality and high warranty costs. "...DaimlerChrysler is facing increased quality problems with its Mercedes-Benz luxury car unit, the Financial Times reported Tuesday...."
The article says that Mercedes Benz quality problems have resulted in about $1.5 billion in Mercedes Benz warranty payments in 2000 and a threefold hike in those costs in the past 2 years.
tsuchi - Overall I rate my LS as very quiet. The V8 has a little whine from the engine cam chains at 1700 RPM (~ 40 mph in 4th & 50 MPH in 5th) but it is not very loud and cannot be heard at other RPM's. The V6 does not have this noise at any RPM. My LS has a slight amount of wind noise at the rear top corner. I can see that the seal is not as compressed as the same spot on the front passenger's door. I don't consider the wind noise bad enough to risk having the dealer attempt to fix it. There is also some rear end drone at 51 MPH in 5th. This is a drive line resonance. If I'll be driving for a while in that speed range I simply put it in 4th and both the cam chain whine and driveline drone are gone. The LS is a lot more responsive in 4th and gas milage seems to be about the same as in 5th at that speed. It appears the V8 is optimized for best milage at 2000 - 2500 RPM which is intersate crising speed. Road noise is primarily comes from the tires. The original Firestones weren't bad in this area with my LS much quiter than other sedans such as the 300M. Unfortunately I now have some Goodyear Eagle GT+4 tires on my car which are obnoxiouosly loud. A friend of mine bought an Impalla LS, yes there is a LS model in the Chevy Impalla as well as the Suburban and who knows how many other Chevies. The friend's Impalla has the same Goodyear Eagle GT+4 tires in it. They are just as loud as my Goodyears, so bad my friend took his Impalla back to the dealer a few days after he got it thinking he had a bad wheel bearing!
There were a couple of posts on vibrations and cold tires. My vibration is definately not a cold tire issue. I can feel the cold tire thumping for the first few miles. In this aspect again the Goodyears are much worse than the Firestones were. After 5 or so miles the cold thump goes away. The 71 MPH vibration I have gets worse the longer I drive and often takes 5 or 10 miles at highway speeds to start feeling it. Now suspect it is a tire or wheel roundness issue. Yesterday I tried coasting to a stop on a very smooth road. As the car slows down under 20 MPH I can feel the same sort of "lumpyness" that you get with warped rotors. Since the brakes weren't on I suspect I'm feeling the lack or round in one or more tires.
Noise is one of my intolerables - let me take a crack at this one! Car & Driver and Autoweek routinely list noise levels in their road tests so you might want to check that out. Also, obviously drive the car you want to buy and judge for yourself.
My experience with the LS and comparing it to other cars (one brother has a Cadillac Seville and another has a Lexus ES300) is that the LS is a very quiet car. Wind noise in mine is very low - lower than my brother's Caddy or Lexus. I have found the LS quieter in every way than Town Cars or Continentals which I often rent when on business trips.
I found the Firestone tires to be fine on smooth asphalt but noisy on concrete road surfaces. Many others on this board have not found them objectionable but I thought they sounded like bulldozer tracks if the road was a little rough. I replaced the tires with Michelins and I am very pleased with the result - huge improvement.
The V8 is very quiet - kind of like a musical hum. I can't speak for the V6. Due to the low wind, engine, and road noise, I tend to hear some alternator (or maybe torque converter) whine. I haven't found that objectionable at all - no car is completely silent. Most of my friends and co-workers who ride in the car for the first time remark about how quiet it is.
I would be interested in your thoughts on the LS versus Saab 9-5 after you drive both. I have a feeling we will be congratulating you on an LS purchase! :-)
On my LS, just like slunar, I've got a small air leak at the rear, top of the driver's door. I also agree that it's not annoying enough to risk messing up the rest of the seal in order to quiet this one small spot. I did have the 51 MPH drone, but the halfshaft replacement quieted that. The suspension has developed a few "clunks", however that have me a bit annoyed. Out of curiosity, I accessed the upper mounting bolts for the top of the rear shock/strut assemblies. I then checked the tightness of these six bolts using my calibrated torque wrench, and stopped tightening them when the tightest one from the factory "clicked" my wrench. The "clunk" from the rear is now gone. I have a similar noise in the front end, and in the near future, I'm going to look for fasteners that may have loosened up over the last year. One thing that has developed that is really annoying is a "creak" or "cracking" sound that comes from the door prop arm, on the driver's side. At first, I thought that the mechanisn had come loose or needed lubrication, but it was neither. It appears that as door starts to close, and overcomes the detent in this prop arm, it causes the surrounding metal to flex , similar to an oilcan, causing the sound. As a closing note, once again it's sad that some of the posters have decided to "de-participate" in this forum due to the politics of some of the others. IMHO, I realize that talking about speakers, wheels and tires, fake wud, and exhaust systems may bore some folks, but thanks to the changes in government regulations, along with closer control of manufacturing costs by the bean counters, that's about all that's left for an enthusiast to modify in his driveway. Yes, I'm more than old enough to fondly remember the days when you could pick and choose from a selection of three 6's, four or five V-8's, three or four transmissions, and a host of rear axle ratios. Sadly for us, the small percentage of enthusiasts that populate the market, those choices are no longer available. Therefore, I don't see the logic in "debating" whether or not this car with this gear is fundamentally better that that car with some other gear. If what you want isn't available, call Steve Saleen, Kenny Brown, John Lingenfelter, etc, and maybe they can provide what you want. Unfortunately, in 2001, it's the only way you can legally get the "special" performance goodies. I'm not saying I like it this way, it's just the way it has become. Hopefully, this forum can remain a friendly place for LS enthusiasts to interchange information, and maybe put aside the "shoulda', coulda', woulda'" debates.
Some friendly advice on vibration... There is a Technical Service Bulletin (# 00-03-04) for steering wheel vibration on the S. I would recommend that you ascertain whether the dealer is following the procedure. One step in the procedure is to replace the tires as necessary with certified tires that are available in a complete car set when calling an 800 number in the TB. This is not the normal procedure for a dealer to acquire tires to fix customer concerns, so if they go through their normal channels they will not get certified tires, and cannot probably get a complete car set. Static and dynamic balancing is not the same as measuring the forces on a loaded tire. A tire/wheel can have good balance and still create a force (like a virtual high spot or flat spot), so the "road force" measurement does add incremental value to diagnosis. A good technician will often know to re-index the tire on the wheel, with an aim to align the high spot of the tire with the low spot of the rim. A measurement guides this process.
Thanks to all the info on this web site I was able to fix the problem of vibration at speeds of 68 mph and over on my LS V8. Changed tires at 14000 miles Firestone charged me about $220. Not to make a long story after the Lincoln dealer gave up. I found a Ford dealer with the road force balance machine. Made an appointment a nice young man at Flammer Ford in New Port Richey Florida named Anthony knew his beans and the problem is no longer there. Out of four tires only one was perfect,the other three were bad,bade and worse. The machine did a great job. Went back to Lincoln dealer and asked why they could not have done this. Answer we have no bulletin on this. I also called Lincoln main offices and logged a complaint. Told them Edmunds has more info than you on the problem. Thanks to all who answered my question.
Brucelink: What model Michelins did you put on your LS? One of my many loaner cars was a Town Car that was very vibration free (just like being in my living room with trees flashing by at 70 MPH). It had Michelins on it.
Has anyone who had the latest reflash noticed any improvement in the 2-3 upshift? My trannie is just about perfect in everyting (including time to engage reverse) but the 2-3 upshift, which is slow and sloppy, especially with low throttle.
Slunar, I've had the reflash done, and I'm very happy with the results. The shifts are all nice and crisp. As a sidenote to those who question whether or not a car has had this done, the dealer installed a tag on the inner fenderwell stating the upgrade date and number.
I rented a V6 LS for a couple of days before I purchased. Ended up with the sport V8. I think the car is very quiet and have not observed any odd noises coming from where they should not. On acceleration, the V8 makes a nice muscular/throaty sort of sound that eases immediately at cruise. I do not drive with the radio off enough to tell you of any other noises. The car is very quiet at cruise and an enjoyable ride. My wife did not know why I bought the car but is now convinced of its greatness. Go rent an LS from Hertz for a weekend and you decide! (It most likely will be a V6 and I don't think you will be disappointed). I should also point out that driving with the moon-roof open is not bad below highway speeds and with the roof tilted at highway speeds still very acceptable. As a former pilot it is possible I can't hear as well as some of the other posters. Have fun! May be the best purchase I have ever made and that is saying a lot as I am not so unhappy with the purchase of an Infiniti I 30T a year and a half ago.
Like Slunar, I have noticed a "noise" from the rear end. It doesn't sound like a rear axle drone but the typical bearing noise you get from an IRS pumpkin. Unlike a solid or "live" axle set-up in a primitive car or truck where rear end noise has to travel up a spring perch to the body, an IRS rear is bolted to the body and NVH has much more direct and shorter path to our ears. The sheetmetal of the body can actually amplify the noise. One just has to crank up the DX-7s to normal volume to drone it out. Any cat-back system will also raise the noise floor so much that you could never hear it without turning off the engine and coasting in neutral.
According to the article, it's called the "Lincoln Incentive Enhancement". I wonder if anyone noticed what the Three Letter Acronym (TLA) for this becomes? :>)
I have Michelin X-ones. I think Town Cars have XW4s. According to the local Michelin dealer, who I happen to know and trust, the X-ones have a smooth quiet ride but handle better than the XW4s that come on Town Cars and DeVilles. I checked them out at Tire Rack, too, and they seemed like they would give me what I was looking for.
This particular tire swap would not suit everyone, though. I went from a 149 MPH speed rating to 118 and not everyone on this board would want to do that.
Bought the light for around $5 at Walmart. It is a 2" X 3 1/2" X 3/4" (or so) black plastic light with its own on/off switch. I used a flat screwdriver to pull back the trunk lid liner in a few places, so that I could run the wire from the top left - the trunk latch area - behind the liner - to the black plastic wire channel (located on the barn-like hinges.) Then just ran the wire over and behind the trunk liner on the right side - to the light and I believe I just hooked into the existing wire connectors - somehow...
Back at the light: I made a small hole in the liner (once again - about 6 inches in from (above) the trunk latch, 18 inches from the left edge of the trunk liner - that way the light shines down when the lid is open.) I wired up the light to the wire and literally just used the screws to attach the light to the liner (I put nothing in the back to reinforce it.) It has not moved slam after trunk slam, but I haven't had to pack the trunk heavily yet, so I don't know if it will get knocked off, either. (I'll cross that bridge...) It shouldn't be a problem, as I mounted it inside that "valley."
I know these directions are not the best, but I didn't use any scientific method to install... I just did it and it works.. thank goodness!
Thanks George. I had my question answered over at the members site also. My question to you is is your new light very bright? I got mine at Kragen for $7 and mounted it behind the rear seat. It is like daytime in the trunk now! I may have to do with only one light, but, cest la vie!
Everything is a trade-off. I drove a Toyota Avalon briefly last year. The quietest car I have ever driven or ridden in, almost eerie. It made me want to whisper when talking with the salesman who was riding along. And it would out-corner anything Winnebago ever made.
As brucelinc said, the Firehawks are noisy on coarse pavement. Some people prefer the gentler ride of the non-Sport models; maybe they're quieter as well.
I've been lucky: no wind noise, clunks, or rattles as of 15k miles. My car passes my one "scientific" noise test. One of my favorite CDs is a collection of overtures by Rossini. I've never been able to play it in a car at high speed because the music goes back and forth from very quiet to very loud. I can listen to it comfortably in my LS at 80 mph. I call this the Rossini Test (patent not pending.)
Great article on sales drop off for Lincoln and Cadillac. Note that BMW sales up almost 15% in the same period. M5s and M3s are leading the charge. Both on heavy back order. You have to hand it to BMW. They have identified their market and are catering to it. Every year, they seem to raise the performance bar. German luxury and performance go together. "American luxury" and performance can also go together. There must be a lesson in this for the marketing sloths in the Premier Group.
Comments
I think I'm going to take a hiatus from this Edmunds forum. I suspect it is probably me, but I miss the "old" days when this forum wasn't so petty and had a positive energy to it.
The Community Leader spot on this forum is up for grabs as of right now, and if anyone would like to volunteer to take my place please let KarenS know.
I'm sure that this post will either inspire flames or cause retrospect, but so be it. It will be without me. I will be continuing my work on LLSOC so if you need me you know where to find me at www.llsoc.com
Sincerely,
Brian
As for me, I think I'll hang out with Brian for awhile......
If Lincoln is listening in to this they might think serious LS owners are just as, if not more, concerned about "wud" and speakers than serious driving performance. And we wonder why we're seeing dealers adding garish tops or whitewall tires? Why bother with a 5- or 6-speed manual LS8 if they can tinker with the interior fabric, add new colors, or find another speaker supplier? Nothin' inherently wrong. That would be cheaper. But guess I'm in the minority that would rather see the LS end up more like a GS300/400 or 5 Series competitor than a Catera or Aurora or 300M competitor. Just hope LS isn't fated to end up like Mark VII/VIII; so much potential that never was truly brought to fruition.
Because we don't necessarily follow the dictates like sheep, we are the ones who are idiots? Some of us might be able to understand compromise and know that the future might hold better things than the present. We might also realize that the constant whining and phony bravado will not bring about changes that quickly.
Honesty can be a difficult thing to achieve. It should always be done with humility and without obfuscation. One man's honesty is another man's oppression, and it often times becomes difficult to know which is which.
Recent posts on all boards have shown that there is only one ideal way to go, and I don't subscribe to it.
Thinking happy thoughts
What a depressing thought!
Different types of vehicles meet different needs. You always give up something to get something else. We got our LS for long trips (with two people). Plenty of space for that. It is extremely comfortable and great fun to drive.
We have a '96 Taurus wagon for hauling and around town errands. It actually has more useable space than most SUVs. A lot of SUVs have quite a bit of height, but really don't have much length for storage, and they drive like (ug!) TRUCKS!
If you need a LOT of space, look at the vans.
IMHO, most SUVs have a VERY narrow functional range. If it fits your need, fine, but if you want broader functionality, a good station wagon gives more car-like ride with better handling and economy with very practical hauling space. Think about it.
I think SUVs are a bad fad.
I predict that with fuel prices getting higher, it won't be long before Detroit is forced to offer CVTees (Continuosly Variable Transmissions) in vehicles.
I went to a SAE toptec on CVT years ago (when I worked for another company). Back then they were touting a 10% fuel economy improvement over manual transmissions. CV trannys have one drawback (that I can think of); they are limited by the amount of torque they can transfer through their belt. There are Torroidal CV transmissions in industry that could handle more (I remember something like 700 N*m) that were being aimed at the truck market.
I don't know if any domestic manufacturer has plans to use one in production. Several Japanese companies already have (Subaru, Honda, Nissan). Over in Japan Nissan produces a 2.0L sportscar that has a CVT with three modes:
1. CVT mode (runs just like a snowmobile
2. Auto trans mimic mode
3. 7 speed *manual* mode (clutchless, of course)
If the U.S. started to put CV trannies into cars, we could have the best of ALL worlds - Better fuel economy, automatic function for city traffic, and a manual mode to squirt around canyon roads with. I would buy one in a heartbeat!
What's holding us back? Probably cost and durability concerns...
Also, as fuel prices continue to rise, we're going to be pushed far beyond the choice of a manual transmission to increase fuel economy (FE). There's not much of a difference between today's autos and manuals with respect to FE. What you're going to see is more alternate fueled vehicles popping up. Hybrid electric vehicles are already sold in the U.S. by Toyota and Honda. Ford announced that they will produce a hybrid version of the Escape (city FE about 45 mpg).
I think the current LS does about everything pretty well but isn't exceptional at any one thing. It is a compromise. One problem I see is that Lincoln doesn't really have a model to move up to. Other than more room, a Town Car or Continental will not do much that an LS can't do better. Eventually, like Giowa, I would like to see the LS focus on the same type of buyer that the GS300/400 does. I would also like to see the Continental more comparable with the LS 430, et al.
Bruce
My point is if you have vibration problems, it is not normal and there should be a remedy. They don't all do it!!
Bruce
As far a Jaguar is concerned, most of the car mags have favored the LS over the Jag S-type as far a chasis design is concerned, as well as overall passenger comfort. However, no one can argue that the S-type offers better engines. It's pretty hard to tell how Ford Motor Company plans to share their various platforms accross their various brands, but I would bet that you haven't seen or heard the last from the "new" Lincoln.
Patience.
Trunk Light:
I wired my directly to the factory trunk light. (Electricians would frown at how I did it...)
Tire Vibration:
I do experience a slight tire vibration for the first mile or so at speeds of 55/60 when driving after the LS has sat overnight. I believe the tires are just flattening slightly/out of round after sitting for a while. Not a problem!
Interesting take on the vibration problem. Before I test drove the car, my friend, who had been the shop foreman, told me that the tires take a flat spot after sitting overnight. What he was telling me was to ignore any initial tire vibration and assured me that it would go when they warmed up. I have an '00 V6 Sport and have never had any vibration problems at all. On certain road surfaces, there is a barely perceptible "nibble." I think this is more a function of the 50 series tires, the highly tactile steering on the LS and the chassis. Since it doesn't occur on all roads, I ignore it. Car is rock solid @ 90 mph. Haven't gone any faster. There's no place to do it where I generally drive.
That folding seat sure does come in handy at times doesn't it?
The Firestones (like many tires) have a nylon ply that help them achieve the speed rating. Nylon is notorious for thump and vibration until warmed up. I agree, gkarg, not a problem. Please don't anyone take offense at this but is it possible that some of these vibration concerns are simply the normal road feel of a stiff chassis, 50 series tires, and firm stabilizer bars?
Bruce
When I transport my daughter's stuff to and from college, we rent an Explorer. The only reason we can get away with this is that we can fold down the larger portion of the back seat. With the seats up, Rene is correct, there is not that much space back there. Unless of course, you are looking at Suburban, Expedition or Excursion. Also, with the SW, the gas mileage will be better and you won't be blocking anybody's view from behind. I was recently in Italy. It looked like 50% of the population was driving SW's. They are definitely making a comeback.
Just my .02. Good luck with whatever you decide on as well as with the new addition to your family.
Check out page 103 of the June 2001 issue of Road & Track. Story on '91-'99 Acura NSX. Excerpt: "Be sure the side windows go up and down. No electric gremlins here, just a little plastic part in the regulator that frequently breaks, causing the window to fall down. It's a $600 fix after it breaks. But for around $100 per window, including installation, you can make a pre-emptive repair using San Diego-based Dali Racings 'Window Regulator Fix-it Thingies.'"
1. Finally got the dealership to replace my front brake pads as they were squealing like a stuck pig every time I hit them. (Good News)
2. I worked the NY Auto Show and had a great time. It was interesting talking to customers about the LS and seeing the look on their faces after I gave my talk and then mentioned that I don't work for F/L but was a customer who thought a lot about the car.
3. I've been working w/ Jim Rogers and his staff about some other problems I've had (air flow from the dash when the heater is on floor only). Please know, from my personal experience, that Jim and his staff truly do care but are swamped with work and it is a typical 10-14 day turnaround before you hear from someone.
Joe
Early-build 2001 cars with build dates between July 2000 and the dates shown above have the next-to-latest software release; the only concern is a possible delayed downshift at 20 MPH. (I have one of these early-build '01 V8s, and I haven't noticed a delay, so I haven't had the update done--I haven't found it necessary.)
If you're buying a new or used 2000 model, you will probably want to have the software update done. For more detailed information, go to the Lincoln LS Owners Club site at http://www.llsoc.com and click on the Recalls/TSBs link. You'll find the TSB (technical service bulletin) number that designates the software update. Your dealer should be able to take it from there.
I think a Sport-equipped LS8 wagon with 300 horsepower and a much-improved stereo would be a killer vehicle. Several months ago someone posted a link to a computer-generated photo of an LS wagon, and it looked great to me. Assuming the handling dynamics wouldn't change, I would definitely consider buying such a car--the added utility would make it an extremely nice package. While I seriously doubt that Lincoln would ever consider an LS wagon, it's interesting to note that wagons appear to be high on Jaguar's list of possible future configurations. The Jag folks don't want to get into the SUV business, so a Jaguar Estate is a real possibility.
I did a round trip to Dallas over the weekend. With three adults and a full complement of luggage, my LS got 22.24 MPG on the return trip (running a fairly steady 78 on the Interstate); that's the best mileage I've seen so far. It was a very comfortable trip--the LS seats are great, and we had just enough room. Probably wouldn't have had enough space for another person, though. (Note to Artie: The roads here are no prize, either. I-35 is getting pounded by NAFTA trucks and LOTS of cars, and it's deteriorating badly.)
In Dallas, we added a couple of teenagers to the back seat for a dinner run. Fortunately, the restaurant was only about a 10-mile trip; the LS is NOT a five-passenger car, and I'm glad I was driving.
I tried to pay attention to any possible vibrations on the trip; didn't notice anything. After 8+ months and 9K miles, vibration has not been a problem for me.
Jim W
http://www.stationwagon.com/gallery/2000_Lincoln_LS_concept.html
Tom
Anyway, if you want a rock-solid SW that can carry a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood (with the back door slightly open), or 10 ft antenna sections and still hold 3 people, or 7 people with the optional pop-up rear facing kiddie seat, try to find a used 96-98 960/V90 wagon. Volvo has made the station wagon an art. No one sells more wagons as Volvo does as a % of its total sales. Between the sedan and the wagon, Volvo wagons enjoy higher resale value. These last Volvo RWD wagons have a straight-six designed by Porsche and an automatic built in Japan by Aisan, who has traditionally supplied Volvo with great automatics. Your mileage will be as good as a van, and the safety and comfort will be superior.
Because of an articulated hood hinge, you can get to any underhood component with ease.
It has distributorless ignition and plenty of room on both sides of the engine. You can probably get a low mileage 96 965 for less than 15k. My 965 is the truck in the family that the wife likes to drive.
Tom
If Lincoln's records don't indicate that the recall work was done, then from a legal standpoint the assumption would be that you haven't had it done. If a problem ever arose, the responsibility would be yours. Also, the dealer will know for sure whether your car is affected by the recall, and will have any factory parts that may be required.
With that in mind, here's the answer to your question (The following is copied verbatim from the November 2000 edition of the LLSOC newsletter):
"2. Recall Information
Owners of 2000/2001 LSs are being notified of a recall concerning possible improper torque settings for front ball joint nuts. The threshold torque limit is 59 ft/lbs. Any less and your ball joints will be replaced. Greater than 59 ft/lbs and a satisfactory inspection of the ball joints and they tighten the ball joint nuts to 111 ft/lbs. Contact your dealer to determine if your LS is involved in the recall. If it is you shouldn't have to wait for the letter from Lincoln before having it checked out."
You can find the NHTSA description of the recall by going to the LLSOC site at http://www.llsoc.com and clicking on the Recalls/TSBs link. The recall affects cars manufactured from August 1998 to September 2000.
Unfortunately, wagons are "out" and sport-utes are "in", so the Lincoln version of the Explorer will be the next thing to hit the showroom. I'm sure it'll be a nice vehicle, but I'd still rather see the 2003 LS SportWagon.
The article says that Mercedes Benz quality problems have resulted in about $1.5 billion in Mercedes Benz warranty payments in 2000 and a threefold hike in those costs in the past 2 years.
http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories/mb508.htm
There were a couple of posts on vibrations and cold tires. My vibration is definately not a cold tire issue. I can feel the cold tire thumping for the first few miles. In this aspect again the Goodyears are much worse than the Firestones were. After 5 or so miles the cold thump goes away. The 71 MPH vibration I have gets worse the longer I drive and often takes 5 or 10 miles at highway speeds to start feeling it. Now suspect it is a tire or wheel roundness issue. Yesterday I tried coasting to a stop on a very smooth road. As the car slows down under 20 MPH I can feel the same sort of "lumpyness" that you get with warped rotors. Since the brakes weren't on I suspect I'm feeling the lack or round in one or more tires.
My experience with the LS and comparing it to other cars (one brother has a Cadillac Seville and another has a Lexus ES300) is that the LS is a very quiet car. Wind noise in mine is very low - lower than my brother's Caddy or Lexus. I have found the LS quieter in every way than Town Cars or Continentals which I often rent when on business trips.
I found the Firestone tires to be fine on smooth asphalt but noisy on concrete road surfaces. Many others on this board have not found them objectionable but I thought they sounded like bulldozer tracks if the road was a little rough. I replaced the tires with Michelins and I am very pleased with the result - huge improvement.
The V8 is very quiet - kind of like a musical hum. I can't speak for the V6. Due to the low wind, engine, and road noise, I tend to hear some alternator (or maybe torque converter) whine. I haven't found that objectionable at all - no car is completely silent. Most of my friends and co-workers who ride in the car for the first time remark about how quiet it is.
I would be interested in your thoughts on the LS versus Saab 9-5 after you drive both. I have a feeling we will be congratulating you on an LS purchase! :-)
Bruce
I did have the 51 MPH drone, but the halfshaft replacement quieted that. The suspension has developed a few "clunks", however that have me a bit annoyed.
Out of curiosity, I accessed the upper mounting bolts for the top of the rear shock/strut assemblies. I then checked the tightness of these six bolts using my calibrated torque wrench, and stopped tightening them when the tightest one from the factory "clicked" my wrench. The "clunk" from the rear is now gone.
I have a similar noise in the front end, and in the near future, I'm going to look for fasteners that may have loosened up over the last year.
One thing that has developed that is really annoying is a "creak" or "cracking" sound that comes from the door prop arm, on the driver's side. At first, I thought that the mechanisn had come loose or needed lubrication, but it was neither.
It appears that as door starts to close, and overcomes the detent in this prop arm, it causes the surrounding metal to flex , similar to an oilcan, causing the sound.
As a closing note, once again it's sad that some of the posters have decided to "de-participate" in this forum due to the politics of some of the others. IMHO, I realize that talking about speakers, wheels and tires, fake wud, and exhaust systems may bore some folks, but thanks to the changes in government regulations, along with closer control of manufacturing costs by the bean counters, that's about all that's left for an enthusiast to modify in his driveway.
Yes, I'm more than old enough to fondly remember the days when you could pick and choose from a selection of three 6's, four or five V-8's, three or four transmissions, and a host of rear axle ratios. Sadly for us, the small percentage of enthusiasts that populate the market, those choices are no longer available. Therefore, I don't see the logic in "debating" whether or not this car with this gear is fundamentally better that that car with some other gear. If what you want isn't available, call Steve Saleen, Kenny Brown, John Lingenfelter, etc, and maybe they can provide what you want. Unfortunately, in 2001, it's the only way you can legally get the "special" performance goodies. I'm not saying I like it this way, it's just the way it has become.
Hopefully, this forum can remain a friendly place for LS enthusiasts to interchange information, and maybe put aside the "shoulda', coulda', woulda'" debates.
There is a Technical Service Bulletin (# 00-03-04) for steering wheel vibration on the S. I would recommend that you ascertain whether the dealer is following the procedure. One step in the procedure is to replace the tires as necessary with certified tires that are available in a complete car set when calling an 800 number in the TB. This is not the normal procedure for a dealer to acquire tires to fix customer concerns, so if they go through their normal channels they will not get certified tires, and cannot probably get a complete car set.
Static and dynamic balancing is not the same as measuring the forces on a loaded tire. A tire/wheel can have good balance and still create a force (like a virtual high spot or flat spot), so the "road force" measurement does add incremental value to diagnosis. A good technician will often know to re-index the tire on the wheel, with an aim to align the high spot of the tire with the low spot of the rim. A measurement guides this process.
Has anyone who had the latest reflash noticed any improvement in the 2-3 upshift? My trannie is just about perfect in everyting (including time to engage reverse) but the 2-3 upshift, which is slow and sloppy, especially with low throttle.
As a sidenote to those who question whether or not a car has had this done, the dealer installed a tag on the inner fenderwell stating the upgrade date and number.
http://www.detnews.com/2001/autos/0105/09/b01-222057.htm
According to the article, it's called the "Lincoln Incentive Enhancement". I wonder if anyone noticed what the Three Letter Acronym (TLA) for this becomes? :>)
This particular tire swap would not suit everyone, though. I went from a 149 MPH speed rating to 118 and not everyone on this board would want to do that.
Bruce
Back at the light:
I made a small hole in the liner (once again - about 6 inches in from (above) the trunk latch, 18 inches from the left edge of the trunk liner - that way the light shines down when the lid is open.) I wired up the light to the wire and literally just used the screws to attach the light to the liner (I put nothing in the back to reinforce it.) It has not moved slam after trunk slam, but I haven't had to pack the trunk heavily yet, so I don't know if it will get knocked off, either. (I'll cross that bridge...) It shouldn't be a problem, as I mounted it inside that "valley."
I know these directions are not the best, but I didn't use any scientific method to install... I just did it and it works.. thank goodness!
As brucelinc said, the Firehawks are noisy on coarse pavement. Some people prefer the gentler ride of the non-Sport models; maybe they're quieter as well.
I've been lucky: no wind noise, clunks, or rattles as of 15k miles. My car passes my one "scientific" noise test. One of my favorite CDs is a collection of overtures by Rossini. I've never been able to play it in a car at high speed because the music goes back and forth from very quiet to very loud. I can listen to it comfortably in my LS at 80 mph. I call this the Rossini Test (patent not pending.)
Scott