On the syn oil topic, I agree with what everyone has said. There is no problem with dino oil if you use a high quality brand and you follow manufacturers recommendations on service intervals. The manufacturers have a vested interest in making sure the oil that they recommend does the job as intended.
With the miles I drive I would be changing oil once a month if I stayed with regular oil, which I'm too darned lazy to do. Just because syn oil is more expensive does not necessarily make it better for you and your particular driving habits. Each person needs to evaluate his/her requirements and feel comfortable with their own decisions before diving into anything that is recommended on the board.
Going 15,000 miles is going against manufacturers recommendations and just because I haven't had any problems doesn't mean that you won't. And if for some reason you had an engine meltdown I'm not sure the engine warranty would cover the problem due to not following the manufacturer recommendations.
P.S. The Corvette, Viper, M-series, AMGs, and Porsches use Mobil-1, I believe. Could be more of a status symbol then anything else.
I'll get the name of the oil analysis kit from the dealer and let you know.
Due to the fact that my wife and I spread our miles across several vehicles, syn oil in the crankcase isn't practical from a dollars and sense standpoint. However, I've had a very positive experience using syn gear oil in the 4 speed manual transmission that's in the Pontiac T/A that I just sold. The transmission always felt "notchy", despite all time I spent adjusting the shifter. I tried syn oil in it "just for grins", or so I thought, but the difference was amazing. Based on this, I definitely would use the syn motor oil if I drove one car exclusively.
Eric, I have during the first few months of ownership noticed a burning smell after driving the LS hard threw turns, etc. and figured it was related to the power steering rack leaking somewhere. The rack is RIGHT in front of the Catalytic Converters and they make a great target for leaking oil! The next time you notice the smell or see the smoke, perhaps look under the car just hehind the front tires. See if the power steering rack is the source.
1. ronniepooh (#2599): I really could care less what oil people use. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Odd that 900 other people on 9,000 posts are trying to convince us that synthetic is best. I'm just going to continue to meet or exceed Lincoln's own recommended service interval (e.g., LOF at least every 5k, always with a filter change).
1. ls1bmw0: Mainly concur with your post at 2604. As for post 2595, just from the titles alone, hard for me to properly evaluate the relationship of the SAE papers shown and the topic we've been discussing. Is there one there that is most relevant? Say an independent scientific long-term test comparing synth to dino in real world cars going about doing their real world activities by real world drivers? Thinking of CR's report many years ago when they evaluated oil change intervals. If memory serves me, they go the City of NY to allow them to monitor police cruisers for years as well as taxi cabs. Pretty big sample size looked at over a good time period in real world. Believe they used 3k, 5k, and 7.5k intervals and after a set number of miles they tore the engines apart to see actual wear. Can't remember if they also looked at other criteria.
Part of the problem with the synth vs oil debate is that no one is framing the discussion. Are we talking about improvements in one or more of the following:
1. engine output? 2. engine wear & tear?. 3. fuel economy? 4. cost savings (due to longer service intervals)?
And are we comparing what types of service intervals? Both at 3k, both at 5k, both at 7.5k, both at 10k? Or dino at 3k or 5k and synth at more than 7.5k? For synth, if talking about service interval greater than 7.5k, are we talking about changing the oil filter each time, or on what separate interval?
Also, does anyone know if Ford/Lincoln authorized longer service intervals merely because someone uses synth? I don't remember seeing this in my LS's owner's manual. If dealer finds out you change ever 10, 12.5, or 15k will that void your warranty?
I remember that report. It was big news for a while since CR found that there was no discernible increase in engine wear if they extended the service interval to 7.5k and the oil companies made a big stink about it. Don't know if they made a recommendation or not but I do remember them saying that with the duty cycle wasn't the culprit it was how long the engine was running between startup and shutdown. If you made a lot of frequent short trips without the engine and oil have enough time to warm up and vaporize some of the compounds they said you should stick with the 3K oil changes.
I have had my '00 LS V8 non-sport since September of 2000. I have less than 3500 miles on it and yet I have had to change the oil twice. The computer on the car told me 3 months ago that my oil life was less than 5% and needed to be changed, which I did. Now 3 months later and with less than 1500 miles put on the car since the last change, the computer once again says my oil life is low and needs to be changed.
Any idea whats going on here folks? 2 oil changes in less than 8 months and 3500 miles just cant be right.
P.S. My cabin air filter needs to be changed according to the computer as well. Think I have a glitch??
Well, picked up my LS last night. They fixed the window switch as promised, repaired the 2 small body/paint issues reasonably well. But they put several scratches on the paint while doing so. They're not deep scratches, so they may buff out, but Jeez ...
Another But: I asked them to reprogram the door locks so that all doors will unlock when I turn the car off. (I got this idea because the Dodge van I recently bought does just that and it's very convenient.) Service advisor told me over the phone all was well. I made him say that all doors unlock when car is shut off. He said it 2 or 3 times. Well guess what? They don't. What they did was cause all doors to unlock with one press on the fob button. Which is OK, but it ain't what I asked for and it isn't really what I wanted.
Lastly, while doing one or the other of these repairs, someone pulled the trunk liner on the drivers side down hard to get it out of the way. Then they left it like that. So I see that and call it to SAs attention. He forces it back up and says 'there, OK now.' Uh, no I say. Compare to the other side, which is flush against the body. This one now sticks out and rubs against the beloved trunk hinge. And there are 2 or 3 creases/bends in the liner where it had to yield to the force that pulled it out of the way. It's late, I say, we can deal with this another time. He says: "I disagree. It's fine the way it is." I swear, I had to really hold my temper on that one, especially since this is the third time he's said this to me. He ain't gonna touch my car or advise me again in any way. Man I hate it when they screw things up and then shmirk at you while saying everything's fine. No it AIN'T fine. It was fine when I brought it in here. Now it's damaged.
Burden of proof is on the manufacturer. If a water pump goes bad, and they say its because I changed my oil everyy 10k or 15k or 20k or whatever k, then they'd better not try to not honor the warranty. If there is a failure, and its a component covered under warranty, and the failure occurs under warranty, and the manufacturer (dealer) attempts to not honor the warranty, then the manufacturer must prove that the failure was caused due to some form of neglect or abuse that specifically related to the failed part, by the owner. So, if an engine fails, then the manufacturer must prove it was due to improper oil protection/lubrication caused by failure to change oil per the recommended intervals.
For those interested in the subject, one of the better sources of info can be found at http://www.noria.com/boards/lab.cfm. For the most part it doesn't get caught up in the endless "my oils better than your oil" cycles that this subject can precipitate.
From what Ive read on this board, the LS Oil Life indicator appears to be, shall we say, kind of crappy? Ex: Most late 80's/90's BMW's Service Indicator lights use a formula that takes into consideration average RPM's, number of cold starts, average engine temp, average outside temp, mileage, and a couple of other factors I cant recall. Based on a calculation involving those factors, the Oil Change lights countdown to oil change time. Average length on most BMW's is around 9-10k between changes. And yes, this is based on using dino oil. (BMW mentions synthetic oil in their manuals. Doesnt state to increase oil change intervals for synthetics (that really wouldnt help out the Service departments pocketbooks, now would it?) Mentions that synthetic oils can be used across a wider range of temperatures, due to their superior high heat protection, low temp flowing abilities, and greater resistance to viscosity breakdown.)
If I recall correctly, late model Mercedes or Porsche's use a more advanced oil change interval system. I believe there is an actual sensor in the oil pan that does an analysis of the oil, and triggers a ligtht on the dash when its time to change the oil. I *think* the average oil change interval for most late model Porsches is around 15,000 miles. I also think that may be the average interval for late model BMW's as well.
If Im incorrect on the Mercedes or Porsche thing, someone please correct me.
May 31, Thursday, 6:30pm Orange County Museum of Arts, Newport Beach. The Art of Design featuring the traveling exhibit from the Metropolitan Museum of Art and a special attraction specifically for us Lincoln owners:
The Lincoln MK-9 Concept Car will be on display. And Lincoln executives will be in attendance.
This is a semi-formal event, suits for guys, dressy stuff for ladies. My wife and I will be attending.
This event is by invitation only and is free. A large turnout is expected, so if you are interested in participating please email Bob Witter at Lincoln as soon as possible letting him know you would like to attend. Title your email: LLSOC Art of Design event. His email address is: rwitter1@ford.com.
Event number 2:
SCCA Autocross Driving School, June 2-3, El Toro MCAS, El Toro
Put on by the California Sports Car Club chapter. Two day class in driving an autocross. Bring your own car and helmet if you have one. $75 fee per person payable to the CSCC. Find out more info. at www.solo2.com. I'll be attending along with my wife.
What the heck are you talking about. You sound like my sister who called and asked me to review a contract she had written for domestic help based on Court TV. There is no burden of proof in a warranty claim. There is a claim and if they don't agree to pay for the repairs then you can try your best to go up the chain through the grievance procedure that the manufacturer has in place or in some states you can make a claim under various state laws or you can file a law suit. In all of those cases that I am aware of, the plaintiff or the person bringing the claim is the one with the burden of proving their claim. The normal procedure is that they will look at some sludge in the pan, or somewhere in the engine and they will get an expert (in their employ) to swear that this is caused by a failure to follow the manufacturers timetable for maintenance. They will ask for proof that you DID follow the mileage and time requirements for maintenance. I am sure that if you had receipts for oil and filters that approximated the proper intervals that MIGHT satisfy them, but if you don't, they will deny your claim and you will have to sue them and hire an expert that will say that the condition of the engine proved that you DID comply with the requirements. Good luck finding someone who will do that and be credible. I am sorry, but you have the wrong idea of how hard it is to overcome a company that has thousands of qualfied experts already in their employ. The only way you have a chance is if you have a well funded attorney who is willing to front the expense to hire a "good" expert. They aren't going to do that for a $2-4,000 repair job. Maybe for a six figure pain and suffering or death, but not for mechanical repairs unless you are talking a class action. If you are going to do this, you better get in the habit of collecting old receipts from the Pep Boys garbage cans in preparation for your fraudulent claim. If you tell the truth, you will almost certainly lose, and lose big too.
I downloaded a couple of them. One was a Mobile generated report, but it tested different varieties of synth's from different manufacturers and most were anonymous. The net result, the syth's of todays quality are almost double the quality of dino. They ran test up to 50Kmiles with only one change at 25Kmiles and the results were, synth held up to the challenge. The purpose of the report, to minimize the need for oil change intervals because car maufacturers have realized it is more costly for frequent changes, not only to the consumer, but to them as well, no profit in just an oil change. Kinda crazy to have Mobil backing such a statement.
However, as it would seem, manufacturers are still hanging on to the 3K and 5K change interval, in other countries as well. Another report on Turkey was done to show how much money could be saved if all the cars in Turkey changed oil less frequently. It came to a whopping $250M a year. The report proved that even regular dino under most driving conditions could go to 7.5Kmiles change intervals and most could go to 10Kmile intervals. Seperate comments on synth put this number higher than 15Kmiles.
The problem with the last report is that the oil manufacturers and the service stations would lose money big time, so we know there is lobbying against the recommendation of such changes, even though tests prove otherwise.
Pretty technical reading, but overall, a good outcome that I hope will one day change the manufacturers attitudes. I know my sisters 88 Honda Accord already had 7.5Kmile intervals as recommended from Honda, what's up with the rest of the world?
Oh, and I agree with Joe, I think the burden of proof will be on the owner because the manufacturer can charge you or deny service and you have to change their attitude if they disagree.
I saw on one of those car shows, Shadetree Mechanic I think, that when doing an oil change, preloading the oil filter with as much oil as possible will mitigate most of the problem of a dry start-up. The amount of oil that can be preloaded into the filter is dependent on the position of the filter. As the filter on my Sable is at about 45 degrees i can't get much oil in it. On my LS I can get almost half a quart. On start-up after the oil change, if I get the pressure light, it is for less than a second. I usually don't get the warning.
Thanks for the super URL. Incredible stuff from people who know oil. I especially liked the "Castrol Syntec is Synthetic" and "Castrol Syntec Not Synthetic!" Forums. I had no idea that one oil is Class II and another Class III. Or that Mobil 1 failed one test that Amsoil passed, etc. I think that if you are paying the same for Amsoil or Mobil 1 or Castrol Syntec (a little over $4.00 a quart) and Syntec is really a Class II worth only $2.00 a quart, and Syntec removed the PAO base which is common to all other Syn oils, we are being overcharged! The whole Syntec controversy is on this site as well as questions and answers on Syn vs.Dino oil. Great Stuff. Thanks.
Not only was there a new LS TV ad last night, but this one actually portrays the LS as a sport sedan! Extra bonus-the focus is on the LS only, and it gets to appear in an ad WITHOUT a Navigator.
A black Sport is shown going through the twisties, a caption appears saying "runs on pure adrenaline" and there is an appropriate quote from Car and Driver. Music is good too. Ends with a brief explanation of the incentives program. This appeared twice during the 11:00PM news.
Well done-Lincoln! Thanks for listening. Keep it up
Again, laws vary from state to state. Im no attorney, so maybe the term "burden of proof" is the incorrect term. Sorry. But I stand by my statement. A manufacturer cant just "void your warranty" because you did not follow their recommended maintenance schedule, or becuase you did not use their O.E. products. Sure, they can theoretically deny to pay any warranty item they want to feel like, but they had better be prepared to face the consequences. Speculate all you want, but Im speaking from personal EXPERIENCE with the laws in my state. Under the terms of the settlement, I cant say much at all, but I was successful 2 years ago in a suit against BMW relating to a warranty issue that they initially would NOT cover. (no, not oil related). I was fully prepared to present FACTS, not fraud, FACTS. Yes, they had their standard law firm in my state that they used. Me? I filed my own case in the local small claims court against BMWNA. Did my own research. Had my own facts. Result was a VERY satisfactory out of court settlement, that neither side can discuss details of.
When my LS was only a couple of months old, I began detecting a burning-oil smell on occasion. I inspected the engine top and bottom and could not find a thing wrong. Never a drip on the garage floor either. I took it to two different dealers and neither could find a thing. The smell would still occur every couple of days or so.
Finally, one day, I had the hood up and the enging running and I saw a white puff come up from the back of the right side exhaust manifold. Using a mirror and flashlight, I found the culprit. The back of the vallve cover gasket had a small leak and the oil would drip onto the hot manifold where it would burn off.
I took it back to the dealer and they put on a new gasket. The tech showed me the old one and there was a wrinkle in it.
This may never happen to anyone else, but if you have an oil smell and no obvious leaks, you may have a bad valve cover gasket.
Put this under the heading that "they can do whatever they want to do".
My new 1985 TurboCoupe drivetrain vibrated from day 1. Dealer could not repair it, so, he brought in the "factory rep". The factory rep started to drive my car (with me in the back), asked at what speed the vibration occured, and promptly brought the car back to the shop when I said it happened after 55 MPH. "I will not exceed the speed limit; the car runs fine at 55"-period. When I wrote to Ford to complain, and included copies of Ford ads bragging about 0-60 times and the "new TBird suspension that stiffens up over 60MPH", I was poltely told to take a hike. So, I wrote to the Ford Consumer Board which also told me the same thing. Result-unless you're willing to get legal help and spend a bunch of money, they have the upper hand.
My opinion is that the synthetics are a superior product but the owner really has to justify the extra cost. Aside from that, I really don't get into the witchery and voodoo of oil products. when I worked for First Brands (STP) I had the opportunity to spend time with one of their senior chemists. He mentioned that they had done extensive testing using identical new Grand Ams and found the following to be true: the only difference in name brand oils were minor blend changes that really didn't make a difference if reasonable service intervals were followed. I think he said that most of the additives - i.e. detergents, friction & viscosity modifiers, etc. - were depeleted by 7,5-10k miles in most applications. Now that doesn't compare syn vs dino but it's pretty straight forward. The point being that service intervals are important. Motor oil is the kidneys in your engine. It collects condensation and other garbage over time. When you change the oil, you reset the timer. Personally I use any name brand product and change at 3-5k intervals. I did however buy Syntec for my Fiero GT for a specific reason - they had a 5w-50 available. The old 166k mile 2.8L has a little bearing looseness. Not enough for a clear knock - just a light rattle over 3500 rpm and intermittent oil light at idle once everything is totally warmed up. I wanted something that would flow really well cold and stay a little thicker at temp. The 10w-30 did great cold but a can of motor honey had my oil pressure gauge up on 70 during warm up. The 5w-50 was the ticket. Great oil pressure at all temps and no light. It even quieted things down up near the rev limiter. But then I would have bought any brand that had that viscocity rating.
One other thing - we also have an '01 Mercedes C240. They call it the "Flexible Service System" and as far as I can tell it's not much different than the % reading in the LS, but it ticks off slower. They estimate it triggers at ~10k intervals and adjusts based on driving habits. Also note - this car has a 10 or 11 quart capacity. More oil to carry more crap in it for a longer service interval. The Mercedes cars come out of the factory with Mobil 1 but had gotten dealer stock when changed. That was recently reversed - I got a letter from Mercedes (about 3 months ago) stating that all dealers are now using Mobil 1 on all services.
I been in love with the Lincoln LS ever since I saw at the New York Auto show in 1999. I am finally going to do it. I going to the dealership tomorrow to purchase my "baby." I am looking at V6, with sport package, moon roof, and probably advance-trac. I was waiting for the 2002 models but can't pass on the incentives they have going on now. Since I am using the "A" plan I should get a pretty good deal. And yes, I am under 35.
I have been following this board for awhile and look forward to becoming a member of the LLSOC.
A few questions for the board: 1) Is the Advance-trac worth getting. 2) Any recommendations on dealers in Central New Jersey. 3) Is the "51 mph " noise seen in the V-6 model?
I expect that BMW was more than a little shy from the Gore case (where a $400 paint job cost them several million dollars until the US Supreme court reversed it). Don't expect that Ford will deal with things the same way. They have a reputation of being very tough to litigate against. They evaluate cases early, make offers and then defend vigorously. Other manufacturers are copying this stance. I think they are fair most of the time, I am sure some others don't.
Holy smokes. Thats a lot of friggin oil. But its all in how you look at it. You say its more oil/more crap, others may say more oil and more additves/detergents to do their job, and since its more of it, it will break down slower.
The only sure fire way to determine how long the oil/its detergents and additivies last, is through an oil analysis. Ive only done this once, about 4 years ago. Ipaid about $15.00 for a kit in the mail. I sent in a sample of Mobil 1 10w-30 that had about 11,500 miles (combined city/highway) on it. I cant recall the specifics of the details of the report I was mailed back, but I do recall that the oil was well within the specs set by the oil analysis firm, and still had plenty of "life" left in it, indicating that detergents and additives were still just fine. Viscosity was fine as well. Keep in mind there are lots of variables that determine oil "life", so just because my experience indicated 11,500 miles, doesnt mean squat to anyone else.
I got on an e-mail distribution when shopping the C240 and recently got an invitation to an autocross style test drive. They claim to have the AMG C-coupe and an M class (talk about apples to oranges) as well as BMW Lexus and Audi models to compare. That will be on 6/2 - I'll tell all afterwards.
Oh yeah I'm dragging my dad along as a guest. He lives and dies by GM products and only uses Valvoline
Over the last two weeks a VERY annoying rattle/squeak was emanating from my back seat area. After some playing around, I noticed that it was worse with the sunroof open. To make a long story short, the back portion of the headliner (near the back glass area) had fallen down a bit, out of its clip(s). A hard hit with my fist fixed the very annoying, loud rattle/squeak. Beyond that, with 32,000 miles on it, theres nary any other squeak or rattle in the car. Im impressed by the overall quality of the LS thus far. Hopefully it will keep its current pace until its paid for, which will be around another 75,000 miles or so....
Yesterday I returned my 2000 LS8 at lease end. 27,858 miles of driving pleasure. It was still as sound as the day I took delivery.
The last trip was a bit over 400 miles. Mostly expressway @ 80 MPH, and about 10% two-lane with about a dozen WOT passing situations. Fuel economy was 24.5 MPG. Not bad considering the 3.58:1 rear axle on my early-build.
I've had 31 new cars (guess which age bracket I'm in), and the LS is clearly the most satisfying of them all. One, of many good traits that stands out, is that the car seems to KNOW where I want it to go. It has a feeling very similar to the Miata, that according to the Mazda people, strives for "oneness with driver". (I hope I got the quote correct) It would be fairly accurate to describe the LS as a "Luxo-Miata with a roof and extra seats".
Next step: Buy a new LS as soon as the next big upgrade occurs. In the meantime, rough it in my Mustang GT 5-speed convertible.
Stanfree, You're making the right choice. I live in Northern NJ so I don't have any experience with dealers in Central NJ. What County are you in? Check out www.llsoc.com. Ask your question there in the NJ section of the message board. Maybe someone can answer you.
AdvanceTrac is like Anti-Lock brakes...It's a waste of money until the one time you need it. Then it's a life-saver. If you can afford it, I'd reccommend it. I have it but haven't yet "needed" it. However, all it takes is one mistake and the extra ~$700 you spent on this option will be paid back in spades. I have gotten the system to engage and it does work and is not obtrusive.
Yes, the 51mph drone has been reported on the V6. However, it is not as noticible on some cars and some people seem to be less sensitive to it. I'd recommend checking it out carefully if you're concerned. The drone actually occurs when the engine is running at around 1600 rpm and the torque converter is locked. In D5, this occurs around 51mph.
Sorry 'bout that. This is what happens when an engineer who has taken graduate level courses in calculus and differential equations uses a calculator without his glasses. Obviously, I missed one of the data points while adding.
Thankfully, the LS is very forgiving of those who can't use calculators...
With that early build LS8 with the 3:58 rear, you were privledged to have one of the fastest factory-built LS8s ever. Did you ever drive a later built LS8 and compare?
stanfree, Congratulations on a great choice with the LS. I live in Central Jersey and purchased my LS V8 Sport from Malouf Lincoln Mercury on North Brunswick. I'm not to happy with the Owners. I've had a few Issue's that they gave me little support with. The service manager Don Crowder is very helpful and has tried to do his best to help me with my problems. There is a dealer were I live in East Brunswick, but the salesman never returned my calls so they lost the sale. You can e-mail me with any questions, I'd be glad to assist you.
I have an early build (8/99) but the only other LS's I have driven was V8 non-sport when shopping mine before I knew the difference and a V6 non-sport while shopping a car for my wife. See me in St. Louis for Mania II and we'll do some comparisons :-D
Here in Colorado, the Advancetrac came in handy a couple of times this last winter. Also, I experimented with it two times on some very icy(and very empty and wide at 2:00 am) roads just to see how it would handle with both the system activated and disabled. No matter how hard I tried or how fast I would go(up to about 50 MPH as I worried a little about ramming into a curb), I could not get the car to do any more than push into a slide a little. Cranked the wheel back and forth, braked, gave it gas, etc., etc. and nothing would make the car lose its balance. Then I turned it off and wow what a difference. Gave it a little gas while turning the wheel and the back end came aroung faster than I could say (insert profanity). In my opinion, it is a very useful option well worth the money.
I also remember a long while back that one of the news shows (20/20, 48 hrs., or the like) did an experiment similar to mine using an LS and a couple of other cars with similar systems and found the same results as I did.
Hi, I'm looking at buying an LS in the next couple of weeks. I noticed on some of the online pricing services, and on the sticker at a local dealer, that there is some special deduction for the moonroof which basically makes it a free option. The web sites had this as a "New York/Pittsburgh region" thing. (I am in SW Connecticut). My question is, does this make it "free" to the dealer as well? ie, should I also subtract it from the dealer's invoice when I'm considering an offer?
Thanks for your input. You guys keep a great forum here. Randall Incidentally, I am a 26 year old engineer. This would be my first new car. I'm looking at a V-8 Sport. (Anybody know how generous Ford will be in giving credit to somebody with a relatively short credit history and who has never needed more than $3000 of credit before? Obviously I'd like to finance the whole deal with these crazy low rates...)
Welcome to the LS forum! The simple answer is that, yes, it's "free" to the dealer, too. In other words, if you're in the area that's eligible for the no-cost moonroof deal, you figure the invoice price as if the moonroof were not on the car.
Eligibility is the key. Be SURE you make the dealer tell you exactly what the requirements are. I would guess that the important factor is where the car is registered. For example, I'm in Texas, and we don't have the free moonroof deal here, so if I went to New York to try to buy an LS, I probably wouldn't get the free moonroof since the car would be registered in Texas. You most likely ARE eligible, but be sure to verify it.
Regarding credit: I would suggest that you arrange alternate financing BEFORE you talk to a dealer. Go to your bank, credit union, etc. and see what they'll do. If you walk into a dealership knowing that you have a fall-back position, you're dealing from a position of strength. That way the dealer can't take advantage of you on the financing.
For example, the price of the car may be higher if you use the dealer's financing. As far as the dealer is concerned, if you get your financing elsewhere, it's a cash deal to the dealer, so be sure and find out whether there's a difference in price if you pay "cash" or dealer-finance.
Also, be sure you know WHICH financing deal you're eligible for at the dealer. If you don't have a long, solid credit history, the dealer may not be willing to give you the lowest rate available. You won't know that until you talk to one.
Just remember that what's important is this: What is the bottom-line, drive-out price of the car with everything included (tax, title, etc.)? That's the amount you're financing (less any down payment, of course.) Don't get sucked into that "How much do you want your monthly payment to be?" nonsense. Find out what they're willing to sell the car for and THEN discuss financing.
Also, talk to more than one dealer. Sometimes there's a significant difference in price (and financing) from one dealer to the next. You're talking about spending a lot of money for something you'll have for several years, so take your time and understand all the ramifications.
It's also a good idea to talk to your insurance agent before you buy, too. You don't want to get hit with a huge insurance bill AFTER you've already bought the car--it's always better to know that stuff ahead of time.
Hope this is helpful (free advice is worth what you pay for it, after all ), and good luck with your quest. You're looking at a GREAT car--I have an '01 V8 Sport and I'm very, very happy with mine.
Dropped by Mongtomery Mall in Rockville (Bethesda?), Maryland, today. In the center of the mall was a Lincoln Mercury Display. The new Mountaineer, a Sable, and a fully loaded LS V8 Sport, stickered at over $40,000. Would have potentially been a nice display, except that the LS did not have a promo sheet in its little plexiglass stand that was standing next to the LS, the LS was actually somewhat dusty/dirty. Im fairly certain the LS was actually driven to the mall (as opposed to trucked), and then left dirty on display. The noticeable, visible black brake dust on all 4 wheels kind of leads me to believe that. The LS has very nice 17 inch Sport wheels, which really add to the car. Having them covered with brake dust really detracted from the car. Too bad the dealership didnt feel the need to detail the car after it arrived at the mall..
Here in Canada a "Lincoln Commitment Care" package of 4 years/50,000mi on "all" scheduled maintenance is included in the purchase price of the car. The scheduled oil change interval included in this package is every 3000 mi. and is, get this, IRRESPECTIVE OF TIME! Ford's own Quality Care recommended interval (which would normally be at the customer's expense), is 3000 mi. or 3 mos. WHICHEVER COMES FIRST! So when the Lincoln customer prepays for this service at the time of purchase, which he is obligated to do, Lincoln takes over and the warranty schedule magically transforms to, you guessed it, WHICHEVER COMES SECOND! Hooowww conveeenient!! A phone call to the Lincoln hotline confirmed this. In my particular case, my wife and I share 3 vehicles (for different purposes) and as a result each accumulates mileage much more slowly than normally would occur with one or two. The LS presently has 8500 mi. on it after 14 mos. of ownership and the oil has been changed twice. I'm not overly concerned from a durability viewpoint because I have supplied Synthetic oil to the dealer since the first oil change (at my own expense and without any compensation for the oil not used by the dealer). One of the selling points for these cars is that "all" scheduled maintenance is included for the first four years. But it's not really "all" maintenance, it's only half, or less than, if you put less than the average mileage on the car- and Ford will NOT allow you to step up the rate and come in for service at three month intervals (unless, of course, I suppose they would "allow" you the pleasure of paying for it TWICE.) The end result for me is that after 4 years I will have been allowed to use only 8 scheduled maintenance intervals, when I have paid up front for 16, and after 48 months those 8 vouchers for the remaining services will become invalid and worthless! Kinda gives me a funny-not-warm-inside feeling. Which leads to the question: Does Ford actually expect to harbour good relations with its customers who are in this situation? How can they possibly? I suspect though that most customers in this situation (how many others are there?) wouldn't even recognise it. It didn't sink in at first and slipped by me for a while. A related issue- after about one year I smelled a faint stale odour and the message center told me to change the cabin air filter. The recommended interval in Ford's literature is 1 year/15,000 mi. When I phoned the Lincoln help line, they referred me to the dealer who told me that the message was erroneous and to just reset it to start counting at zero again, which I did. Looking in my "Passport to Lincoln Commitment Care" (Oxymoron theirs, not mine)I notice that I have to wait until 20,000 mi.(at least another year for me) to get the filter replaced. Kinny - I'm curious, you had this same odour problem, what did they do for you? Or maybe you're closer to the 20,000 mi(35,000 km) mark? Mea culpa. Yes,I DID (unwittingly) agree to this service scheme when I signed the papers when purchasing the vehicle. I just want others to be aware of it at the time they make their purchase. That's what this forum is all about. Anyhow, the topic of maintaining the warranty in force via strict oil change intervals came up in previous postings and I thought I would throw this out because going strictly by the mileage apparently maintains the warrantee in force in Canada, or Ford wouldn't do it that way, right? BTW - Welcome back Brian. You are a valuable contributor to this forum. After you left I thought to myself that it was lucky that I hadn't posted this yet because I would have felt partly responsible for negativity. It's not all bad though... Even though sitting here at the computer writing about it has really gotten me more steamed, overall I'm very happy with this car. I would still highly recommend the LS to anyone. Let me finish by reiterating what I have posted previously - I (still) love this car!!! Best Regards - Brian.
> Kinny - I'm curious, you had this same odour problem, what did they do for you? Or maybe you're closer to the 20,000 mi(35,000 km) mark?
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It's funny that now that the weather is much warmer, and the A/C is on a lot more now, the smell seems to have stopped for the most part.
I just had the car serviced but I am still only at 22,000 K (about 13,000 miles) and I don't think they changed the cabin filter, but can't confirm this at the moment as my wife has filed the work order away somewhere.
If you guys hate me, check out post #45 on the LS Meet the Members thread. msmac1 posts his discontent with LS6 manual. Says things like: "Beautiful car but boring to drive", "pretty slow", "such an inadequate engine", "I am left in the dust by most other new cars", and "LS V-6 lacks adequate horsepower". Guy has guts! Such suicidal fervor.
While I tend to concur with him that LS6 is under engined, the published acceleration times for the LS6 manual are close to, though slightly behind, LS8. Wondering if he is adequately driving his manual. Might need to go to driving school.
I'm guessing one or more of you might help this wayward soul.
Some Suggestions on the V-6 Manual: 1. It takes a long time to break-in. The engine and tranny are tight until the 8 to 10,000 mile mark. Then the V-6 develops this satisfying growl above 4,000 rpm or so. 2. The non-synthetic Mercon in the Getrag is terrible. Change it to a mix of 65% Redline MTL and 35% Redline Syn Auto Trans Fluid. The MTL by itself is just a little too thick when cold. 3. Realize the torque peak starts at 3000 and goes to a little over 5000 rpm. Don't expect alot if you launch below that. A little playing with clutch engagement can aid acceleration. The clutch needs a long break-in as well. 4. Switch to Mobil 1 10-30 at 10,000 miles and get a K&N early in the game. IMHO
In Friday's Wall Street Journal, the was a full page color ad featuring all of the Lincoln Products and the advantageous Lincoln financing available. When I glanced to the bottom of the ad there was the ugliest Town car I have ever seen. I wanted to throw up. The yellow color should be sent packing along with those who approved the color and the ad.
Such a disgrace for an otherwise thoughtful ad and product line. I would be embarrassed to market my products this way.
Comments
Couldn't really figure out why you left.
On the syn oil topic, I agree with what everyone has said. There is no problem with dino oil if you use a high quality brand and you follow manufacturers recommendations on service intervals. The manufacturers have a vested interest in making sure the oil that they recommend does the job as intended.
With the miles I drive I would be changing oil once a month if I stayed with regular oil, which I'm too darned lazy to do. Just because syn oil is more expensive does not necessarily make it better for you and your particular driving habits. Each person needs to evaluate his/her requirements and feel comfortable with their own decisions before diving into anything that is recommended on the board.
Going 15,000 miles is going against manufacturers recommendations and just because I haven't had any problems doesn't mean that you won't. And if for some reason you had an engine meltdown I'm not sure the engine warranty would cover the problem due to not following the manufacturer recommendations.
P.S. The Corvette, Viper, M-series, AMGs, and Porsches use Mobil-1, I believe. Could be more of a status symbol then anything else.
I'll get the name of the oil analysis kit from the dealer and let you know.
Brian
However, I've had a very positive experience using syn gear oil in the 4 speed manual transmission that's in the Pontiac T/A that I just sold. The transmission always felt "notchy", despite all time I spent adjusting the shifter. I tried syn oil in it "just for grins", or so I thought, but the difference was amazing.
Based on this, I definitely would use the syn motor oil if I drove one car exclusively.
I have during the first few months of ownership noticed a burning smell after driving the LS hard threw turns, etc. and figured it was related to the power steering rack leaking somewhere. The rack is RIGHT in front of the Catalytic Converters and they make a great target for leaking oil! The next time you notice the smell or see the smoke, perhaps look under the car just hehind the front tires. See if the power steering rack is the source.
1. ls1bmw0: Mainly concur with your post at 2604. As for post 2595, just from the titles alone, hard for me to properly evaluate the relationship of the SAE papers shown and the topic we've been discussing. Is there one there that is most relevant? Say an independent scientific long-term test comparing synth to dino in real world cars going about doing their real world activities by real world drivers? Thinking of CR's report many years ago when they evaluated oil change intervals. If memory serves me, they go the City of NY to allow them to monitor police cruisers for years as well as taxi cabs. Pretty big sample size looked at over a good time period in real world. Believe they used 3k, 5k, and 7.5k intervals and after a set number of miles they tore the engines apart to see actual wear. Can't remember if they also looked at other criteria.
Part of the problem with the synth vs oil debate is that no one is framing the discussion. Are we talking about improvements in one or more of the following:
1. engine output?
2. engine wear & tear?.
3. fuel economy?
4. cost savings (due to longer service intervals)?
And are we comparing what types of service intervals? Both at 3k, both at 5k, both at 7.5k, both at 10k? Or dino at 3k or 5k and synth at more than 7.5k? For synth, if talking about service interval greater than 7.5k, are we talking about changing the oil filter each time, or on what separate interval?
Also, does anyone know if Ford/Lincoln authorized longer service intervals merely because someone uses synth? I don't remember seeing this in my LS's owner's manual. If dealer finds out you change ever 10, 12.5, or 15k will that void your warranty?
I have had my '00 LS V8 non-sport since September of 2000. I have less than 3500 miles on it and yet I have had to change the oil twice. The computer on the car told me 3 months ago that my oil life was less than 5% and needed to be changed, which I did. Now 3 months later and with less than 1500 miles put on the car since the last change, the computer once again says my oil life is low and needs to be changed.
Any idea whats going on here folks? 2 oil changes in less than 8 months and 3500 miles just cant be right.
P.S. My cabin air filter needs to be changed according to the computer as well. Think I have a glitch??
Thanks-
Another But: I asked them to reprogram the door locks so that all doors will unlock when I turn the car off. (I got this idea because the Dodge van I recently bought does just that and it's very convenient.) Service advisor told me over the phone all was well. I made him say that all doors unlock when car is shut off. He said it 2 or 3 times. Well guess what? They don't. What they did was cause all doors to unlock with one press on the fob button. Which is OK, but it ain't what I asked for and it isn't really what I wanted.
Lastly, while doing one or the other of these repairs, someone pulled the trunk liner on the drivers side down hard to get it out of the way. Then they left it like that. So I see that and call it to SAs attention. He forces it back up and says 'there, OK now.' Uh, no I say. Compare to the other side, which is flush against the body. This one now sticks out and rubs against the beloved trunk hinge. And there are 2 or 3 creases/bends in the liner where it had to yield to the force that pulled it out of the way. It's late, I say, we can deal with this another time. He says: "I disagree. It's fine the way it is." I swear, I had to really hold my temper on that one, especially since this is the third time he's said this to me. He ain't gonna touch my car or advise me again in any way. Man I hate it when they screw things up and then shmirk at you while saying everything's fine. No it AIN'T fine. It was fine when I brought it in here. Now it's damaged.
35-39 years old 10.2% of all owners
40-44 14.2%
45-49 14.4%
50-54 15.6%
55-59 12.7%
60-64 8.5%
Sorry about the compressed format. This text editor is weak!
Good luck proving that...
If I recall correctly, late model Mercedes or Porsche's use a more advanced oil change interval system. I believe there is an actual sensor in the oil pan that does an analysis of the oil, and triggers a ligtht on the dash when its time to change the oil. I *think* the average oil change interval for most late model Porsches is around 15,000 miles. I also think that may be the average interval for late model BMW's as well.
If Im incorrect on the Mercedes or Porsche thing, someone please correct me.
The Lincoln MK-9 Concept Car will be on display. And Lincoln executives will be in attendance.
This is a semi-formal event, suits for guys, dressy stuff for ladies. My wife and I will be attending.
This event is by invitation only and is free. A large turnout is expected, so if you are interested in participating please email Bob Witter at Lincoln as soon as possible letting him know you would like to attend. Title your email: LLSOC Art of Design event. His email address is: rwitter1@ford.com.
Event number 2:
SCCA Autocross Driving School, June 2-3, El Toro MCAS, El Toro
Put on by the California Sports Car Club chapter. Two day class in driving an autocross. Bring your own car and helmet if you have one. $75 fee per person payable to the CSCC. Find out more info. at www.solo2.com. I'll be attending along with my wife.
Brian
Kinda crazy to have Mobil backing such a statement.
However, as it would seem, manufacturers are still hanging on to the 3K and 5K change interval, in other countries as well. Another report on Turkey was done to show how much money could be saved if all the cars in Turkey changed oil less frequently. It came to a whopping $250M a year. The report proved that even regular dino under most driving conditions could go to 7.5Kmiles change intervals and most could go to 10Kmile intervals. Seperate comments on synth put this number higher than 15Kmiles.
The problem with the last report is that the oil manufacturers and the service stations would lose money big time, so we know there is lobbying against the recommendation of such changes, even though tests prove otherwise.
Pretty technical reading, but overall, a good outcome that I hope will one day change the manufacturers attitudes. I know my sisters 88 Honda Accord already had 7.5Kmile intervals as recommended from Honda, what's up with the rest of the world?
Jeff
I guess I am in the minority ;-).
Oh, and I agree with Joe, I think the burden of proof will be on the owner because the manufacturer can charge you or deny service and you have to change their attitude if they disagree.
Since I doubt many septuagenarians buy LSs, this means that fully one third of LS owners are under 35.
Amazing if true.
Joe
A black Sport is shown going through the twisties, a caption appears saying "runs on pure adrenaline" and there is an appropriate quote from Car and Driver. Music is good too. Ends with a brief explanation of the incentives program. This appeared twice during the 11:00PM news.
Well done-Lincoln! Thanks for listening. Keep it up
Finally, one day, I had the hood up and the enging running and I saw a white puff come up from the back of the right side exhaust manifold. Using a mirror and flashlight, I found the culprit. The back of the vallve cover gasket had a small leak and the oil would drip onto the hot manifold where it would burn off.
I took it back to the dealer and they put on a new gasket. The tech showed me the old one and there was a wrinkle in it.
This may never happen to anyone else, but if you have an oil smell and no obvious leaks, you may have a bad valve cover gasket.
Bruce
75.6% fall within the 35-64 range
14.7% fall below
9.7% are over 64
plus or minus a hair here or there.
My new 1985 TurboCoupe drivetrain vibrated from day 1. Dealer could not repair it, so, he brought in the "factory rep".
The factory rep started to drive my car (with me in the back), asked at what speed the vibration occured, and promptly brought the car back to the shop when I said it happened after 55 MPH. "I will not exceed the speed limit; the car runs fine at 55"-period.
When I wrote to Ford to complain, and included copies of Ford ads bragging about 0-60 times and the "new TBird suspension that stiffens up over 60MPH", I was poltely told to take a hike.
So, I wrote to the Ford Consumer Board which also told me the same thing.
Result-unless you're willing to get legal help and spend a bunch of money, they have the upper hand.
One other thing - we also have an '01 Mercedes C240. They call it the "Flexible Service System" and as far as I can tell it's not much different than the % reading in the LS, but it ticks off slower. They estimate it triggers at ~10k intervals and adjusts based on driving habits. Also note - this car has a 10 or 11 quart capacity. More oil to carry more crap in it for a longer service interval. The Mercedes cars come out of the factory with Mobil 1 but had gotten dealer stock when changed. That was recently reversed - I got a letter from Mercedes (about 3 months ago) stating that all dealers are now using Mobil 1 on all services.
I have been following this board for awhile and look forward to becoming a member of the LLSOC.
A few questions for the board: 1) Is the Advance-trac worth getting. 2) Any recommendations on dealers in Central New Jersey. 3) Is the "51 mph " noise seen in the V-6 model?
The only sure fire way to determine how long the oil/its detergents and additivies last, is through an oil analysis. Ive only done this once, about 4 years ago. Ipaid about $15.00 for a kit in the mail. I sent in a sample of Mobil 1 10w-30 that had about 11,500 miles (combined city/highway) on it. I cant recall the specifics of the details of the report I was mailed back, but I do recall that the oil was well within the specs set by the oil analysis firm, and still had plenty of "life" left in it, indicating that detergents and additives were still just fine. Viscosity was fine as well. Keep in mind there are lots of variables that determine oil "life", so just because my experience indicated 11,500 miles, doesnt mean squat to anyone else.
YMMV
Oh yeah I'm dragging my dad along as a guest. He lives and dies by GM products and only uses Valvoline
Gotta love the easy solutions.
The last trip was a bit over 400 miles. Mostly expressway @ 80 MPH, and about 10% two-lane with about a dozen WOT passing situations. Fuel economy was 24.5 MPG. Not bad considering the 3.58:1 rear axle on my early-build.
I've had 31 new cars (guess which age bracket I'm in), and the LS is clearly the most satisfying of them all. One, of many good traits that stands out, is that the car seems to KNOW where I want it to go. It has a feeling very similar to the Miata, that according to the Mazda people, strives for "oneness with driver". (I hope I got the quote correct) It would be fairly accurate to describe the LS as a "Luxo-Miata with a roof and extra seats".
Next step: Buy a new LS as soon as the next big upgrade occurs. In the meantime, rough it in my Mustang GT 5-speed convertible.
You're making the right choice. I live in Northern NJ so I don't have any experience with dealers in Central NJ. What County are you in?
Check out www.llsoc.com. Ask your question there in the NJ section of the message board. Maybe someone can answer you.
AdvanceTrac is like Anti-Lock brakes...It's a waste of money until the one time you need it. Then it's a life-saver. If you can afford it, I'd reccommend it. I have it but haven't yet "needed" it. However, all it takes is one mistake and the extra ~$700 you spent on this option will be paid back in spades. I have gotten the system to engage and it does work and is not obtrusive.
Yes, the 51mph drone has been reported on the V6. However, it is not as noticible on some cars and some people seem to be less sensitive to it. I'd recommend checking it out carefully if you're concerned. The drone actually occurs when the engine is running at around 1600 rpm and the torque converter is locked. In D5, this occurs around 51mph.
Good luck,
Joe
Thankfully, the LS is very forgiving of those who can't use calculators...
Joe
I owned two Miatias, and the LS has many of the good features of the handling, with lots more room and amenities.
OTOH, the Miata had zero (as in no) recalls, pieces falling off the interior, crappy paint, or "issues" with the various options that were available.
Choose your poison, but the LS goes down really well.
Congratulations on a great choice with the LS. I live in Central Jersey and purchased my LS V8 Sport from Malouf Lincoln Mercury on North Brunswick. I'm not to happy with the Owners. I've had a few Issue's that they gave me little support with. The service manager Don Crowder is very helpful and has tried to do his best to help me with my problems. There is a dealer were I live in East Brunswick, but the salesman never returned my calls so they lost the sale. You can e-mail me with any questions, I'd be glad to assist you.
Tom...
I also remember a long while back that one of the news shows (20/20, 48 hrs., or the like) did an experiment similar to mine using an LS and a couple of other cars with similar systems and found the same results as I did.
Hope that helps
Bruno
My question is, does this make it "free" to the dealer as well? ie, should I also subtract it from the dealer's invoice when I'm considering an offer?
Thanks for your input. You guys keep a great forum here.
Randall
Incidentally, I am a 26 year old engineer. This would be my first new car. I'm looking at a V-8 Sport. (Anybody know how generous Ford will be in giving credit to somebody with a relatively short credit history and who has never needed more than $3000 of credit before? Obviously I'd like to finance the whole deal with these crazy low rates...)
Eligibility is the key. Be SURE you make the dealer tell you exactly what the requirements are. I would guess that the important factor is where the car is registered. For example, I'm in Texas, and we don't have the free moonroof deal here, so if I went to New York to try to buy an LS, I probably wouldn't get the free moonroof since the car would be registered in Texas. You most likely ARE eligible, but be sure to verify it.
Regarding credit: I would suggest that you arrange alternate financing BEFORE you talk to a dealer. Go to your bank, credit union, etc. and see what they'll do. If you walk into a dealership knowing that you have a fall-back position, you're dealing from a position of strength. That way the dealer can't take advantage of you on the financing.
For example, the price of the car may be higher if you use the dealer's financing. As far as the dealer is concerned, if you get your financing elsewhere, it's a cash deal to the dealer, so be sure and find out whether there's a difference in price if you pay "cash" or dealer-finance.
Also, be sure you know WHICH financing deal you're eligible for at the dealer. If you don't have a long, solid credit history, the dealer may not be willing to give you the lowest rate available. You won't know that until you talk to one.
Just remember that what's important is this: What is the bottom-line, drive-out price of the car with everything included (tax, title, etc.)? That's the amount you're financing (less any down payment, of course.) Don't get sucked into that "How much do you want your monthly payment to be?" nonsense. Find out what they're willing to sell the car for and THEN discuss financing.
Also, talk to more than one dealer. Sometimes there's a significant difference in price (and financing) from one dealer to the next. You're talking about spending a lot of money for something you'll have for several years, so take your time and understand all the ramifications.
It's also a good idea to talk to your insurance agent before you buy, too. You don't want to get hit with a huge insurance bill AFTER you've already bought the car--it's always better to know that stuff ahead of time.
Hope this is helpful (free advice is worth what you pay for it, after all
In my particular case, my wife and I share 3 vehicles (for different purposes) and as a result each accumulates mileage much more slowly than normally would occur with one or two. The LS presently has 8500 mi. on it after 14 mos. of ownership and the oil has been changed twice. I'm not overly concerned from a durability viewpoint because I have supplied Synthetic oil to the dealer since the first oil change (at my own expense and without any compensation for the oil not used by the dealer).
One of the selling points for these cars is that "all" scheduled maintenance is included for the first four years. But it's not really "all" maintenance, it's only half, or less than, if you put less than the average mileage on the car- and Ford will NOT allow you to step up the rate and come in for service at three month intervals (unless, of course, I suppose they would "allow" you the pleasure of paying for it TWICE.) The end result for me is that after 4 years I will have been allowed to use only 8 scheduled maintenance intervals, when I have paid up front for 16, and after 48 months those 8 vouchers for the remaining services will become invalid and worthless! Kinda gives me a funny-not-warm-inside feeling.
Which leads to the question: Does Ford actually expect to harbour good relations with its customers who are in this situation? How can they possibly? I suspect though that most customers in this situation (how many others are there?) wouldn't even recognise it. It didn't sink in at first and slipped by me for a while.
A related issue- after about one year I smelled a faint stale odour and the message center told me to change the cabin air filter. The recommended interval in Ford's literature is 1 year/15,000 mi. When I phoned the Lincoln help line, they referred me to the dealer who told me that the message was erroneous and to just reset it to start counting at zero again, which I did. Looking in my "Passport to Lincoln Commitment Care" (Oxymoron theirs, not mine)I notice that I have to wait until 20,000 mi.(at least another year for me) to get the filter replaced. Kinny - I'm curious, you had this same odour problem, what did they do for you? Or maybe you're closer to the 20,000 mi(35,000 km) mark?
Mea culpa. Yes,I DID (unwittingly) agree to this service scheme when I signed the papers when purchasing the vehicle. I just want others to be aware of it at the time they make their purchase. That's what this forum is all about.
Anyhow, the topic of maintaining the warranty in force via strict oil change intervals came up in previous postings and I thought I would throw this out because going strictly by the mileage apparently maintains the warrantee in force in Canada, or Ford wouldn't do it that way, right?
BTW - Welcome back Brian. You are a valuable contributor to this forum. After you left I thought to myself that it was lucky that I hadn't posted this yet because I would have felt partly responsible for negativity.
Even though sitting here at the computer writing about it has really gotten me more steamed, overall I'm very happy with this car. I would still highly recommend the LS to anyone. Let me finish by reiterating what I have posted previously - I (still) love this car!!!
Best Regards - Brian.
> Kinny - I'm curious, you had this same odour problem, what did they do for you? Or maybe you're closer to the 20,000 mi(35,000 km) mark?
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It's funny that now that the weather is much warmer, and the A/C is on a lot more now, the smell seems to have stopped for the most part.
I just had the car serviced but I am still only at 22,000 K (about 13,000 miles) and I don't think they changed the cabin filter, but can't confirm this at the moment as my wife has filed the work order away somewhere.
--Ken
While I tend to concur with him that LS6 is under engined, the published acceleration times for the LS6 manual are close to, though slightly behind, LS8. Wondering if he is adequately driving his manual. Might need to go to driving school.
I'm guessing one or more of you might help this wayward soul.
3. Realize the torque peak starts at 3000 and goes to a little over 5000 rpm. Don't expect alot if you launch below that. A little playing with clutch engagement can aid acceleration. The clutch needs a long break-in as well. 4. Switch to Mobil 1 10-30 at 10,000 miles and get a K&N early in the game. IMHO
Such a disgrace for an otherwise thoughtful ad and product line. I would be embarrassed to market my products this way.