High tire pressure is a good thing. Unlike what people might think; Max tire press written on the side of tires are a pestimestic view of what the tire can actually handle. Not running with enough pressure WILL lead to disaster eg: look at the whole fiasco with Ford Explorer and Firestones rolling over or the tires ripping off the rims. That was due to Ford underwriting the psi recommended for each side. The tire's weren't the problem; in fact any top-name brand tire would of subjected to the same results with the low tire pressure. It gave Firestone a bad rap that I still here from poster's(I'm going to replace the "Stones" for something else fearing for my safety,) on this forum. Firestones name will be forever marked for this whole hoopla that the roll over started. Blame Ford for the tire failure not Firestone; in this case it was the manufacturers mistake for sujesting low tire psi especially on a SUV for that matter.
One thing to keep in mind; the lower aspect ratio tires you go with, the more it benifets with higher pressure. Give a low-profile all the psi she can handle and than some; the side-walls are stronger the lower profile you go and were built for that sole purpose. The actual tread gets flatter while the sidewall gets more ridged(straight)with higher psi(pounds per square inch). With a low aspect tire eg:245-40 18; running at the factory recommended pressure of the stockers that the car came with the lower ratio tires would lead to disaster with the side-wall buckling under high-speed cornering and possibly come out from under the rim.
Now, on the other side of the spectrum; I would not recommend inflating Bias or big mud bogging Radials to extreme pressures to where is would bow out; that could lead to an explosion or failure of the tire. I don't think anyone on this site will probualy put monster-size tires on their LS's(IMHO let's hope not.)On a personal note, I've been running anywhere from 40-45psi both front and rear(I try to keep it even)in my tires for several months now and I have gotten used to the rougher ride plus the added (ultra)traction of the normal twists and bends in the roads. The car feels even more like it's on rails. I guess it's not as smooth(rougher)compared to 35-38psi but, after awile you don't even feel it and it becomes more natural. I personally think the car should of came with 18" and 40 series tires from the factory or at least as an option for the New Ultimate Driving Machine LS1BMW0! That as an option would get also more of a younger demograph in the market for a Lincoln = more sales + more of a market for the LS's eg: aftermarket mods,perf.
Felt like adding my own experience and $0.02 worth, Mike
Today I am replacing my "stones" with a new set recently purchased from the Tirerack ($69 each) which I learned about from this site. My car has just over 31,000 miles. I have always set tire pressure at "30" per factory spec. While the car handles well, the tires seemed to wear more at the center of the tire indicating over pressure. I'm not complaining ...just making a comment!
Mike - stop putting words in other people's mouths. Nobody here said they were worried for their safety on the Firehawks. I said I didn't like them.
To say the Wilderness A/T tires didn't have a problem is simply ignoring the facts. Low psi was a contributor but the fact remains that Goodyear and Michelins didn't separate - Firestones did. I guess Ford paid off the NHTSA so they blamed the tires and not the explorer?
Your statement about max tire pressure seems to hint that it's safe to run over the mfr recommended PSI. There is obviously a safety margin built into it but you have no way of knowing how big that margin is or how close you are to it. Exceeding max pressure is dangerous - period.
If you want to destroy your own vehicle with overinflated tires and water sucking intake modifications go right ahead. But stop trying to convince others that it's safe.
Not to turn this board into a "retread" of the Firestone debacle but akirby is correct about the Wilderness tires being the defective product. Here is the link to the government's report:
You'll note that tire pressure was not the cause of the tread separation. Akirby correctly notes that vehicles fitted with original equipment Goodyear tires with the same recommended pressure had no problems. Other manufacturer SUVs on the road today also use the same recommended psi of 26 without tread separation problems.
The tires were deemed defective because the belt wedge thickness was usually narrower than other manufacturers tires, and the wedge gauge was often less than Firestone's own specs for that dimension. Because of this the tires did not resist the "initiation and propagation of belt-edge cracks between the steel belts".
Additionally the gauge of the rubber between the two steel belts spec'd by Firestone was less than other manufacturers and the gauge of this rubber in the tires actually produced were sometimes "far less" than Firestone's own design spec. Also, the Wilderness tires tested would "exhibit a series of weak spots around the tire's circumference" which led to the "initiation and growth of cracks earlier than in competitor tires" and other tires made by Firestone for SUVs.
Right on akirby and karzz! The information you guys provided is exactly right. The stuff you guys responded to was absolute nonsense, and just plain dangerous!
I *think* what he was saying, was that if Explorer owners adhered to the minimum recommended PSI of 26 (which was Fords recommendation, right?) , then the AT's would have not separated. Studies have shown that most owners of cars/trucks dont regularly check their tire pressure, and routinely have insufficient air in their tires. So while the AT's should not have separated at lower than 26 psi, everything Ive read indicates that the tires definitely would not have separated if a min of 26 psi was kept in the tires.
Hi All: Still working on my mobile video project in my 2000 LS V6 Sport. I initially ordered a set of 5.6 inch monitors, but the housing was too thick for the stealth/flush install I was seeking. I also was unsure of my skills with regards to cutting into the headrests. So, I allowed the internet vendor that sold me the monitors to examine my headrests in person, then decide what he felt was best. He's installed 5.6 inch LCD Modules (raw LCD's with no plastic housings) into the headrests, and he's shipping them back to me this week. I will perform the wiring and remaining install of the DVD player in the trunk. I have yet to see a setup where TV reception is anything other then fair to poor when the vehicle is in motion, so I opted to forgo a Tuner, and just go DVD at this time. I plan to use an FM modulator to allow the sound to come through the factory stereo. (This prevents any cutting or hacking into the factory stereo wiring to obtain sound). I also plan to add wireless headphones at a later time.
Can someone tell me the colors/locations of wires that are switched hots? If this wire is upfront, I will run a single wire from this source, and tap into this one wire for power for the two monitors, fm modulator, and DVD player.
Not to turn this board into a "retread" of the Firestone debacle but akirby is correct about the Wilderness tires being the defective product. Here is the link to the government's report:
You'll note that tire pressure was not the cause of the tread separation. Akirby correctly notes that vehicles fitted with original equipment Goodyear tires with the same recommended pressure had no problems. Other manufacturer SUVs on the road today also use the same recommended psi of 26 without tread separation problems.
The tires were deemed defective because the belt wedge thickness was usually narrower than other manufacturers tires, and the wedge gauge was often less than Firestone's own specs for that dimension. Because of this the tires did not resist the "initiation and propagation of belt-edge cracks between the steel belts".
Additionally the gauge of the rubber between the two steel belts spec'd by Firestone was less than other manufacturers and the gauge of this rubber in the tires actually produced were sometimes "far less" than Firestone's own design spec. Also, the Wilderness tires tested would "exhibit a series of weak spots around the tire's circumference" which led to the "initiation and growth of cracks earlier than in competitor tires" and other tires made by Firestone for SUVs.
stanny1: No I did not run it that high for San Diego. More because the pathetic excuse I had for a portable air pump wouldn't inflate the tires past 35 psi.
Most autocrossers run a lot higher pressures for street tires due to wanting to have the sidewalls as stiff as possible to prevent rollunder.
While I won't get embroiled in the higher/lower tire pressure discussion, I personally run my tires at 35 psi on the street. These Michelins in the 45 series have a lot better transient response at higher pressures. At 45 psi they have a knife-edge handling feel to them. The maximum pressure on these particular tires is 51 psi so I know they can handle them. When I had the stones on I ran them at 35 psi also. But each person has to be comfortable at any changes from manufacturers recommendations. If you feel that 30 psi is adequate for your driving needs stick with it. Only you can determine what feels right for you.
Now that winter(or what we call winter) has arrived in Texas, I feel the need to at seat heaters to my 2001 V-8 sport. Has anyone tried this addition, or does anyone have any ideas on the subject?
If Ford uses a "standard" antenna plug throughout it's line, the FM modulator may be a problem. I installed an FM modulated CD player in my Sable (I'll NEVER use one of these again. The sound is just like FM radio, not the clean CD sound). The antenna connector is Ford unique and I couldn't find an adapter. I had to cut the original lead and splice "normal" (RCA type) connectors in. Hopefully your supplier WILL have a suitable adapter.
I cant comment on the LS, but I have a good friend who added them to his 1996 328is. He's an engineer for GTE, and has done some pretty detailed, thorough, immaculate stereo, radar detector, VDO guage mods to his car. He told me that he would NEVER do seat heaters again due to the labor. He mentioned that it's something definitely better left to an upholstery shop. I also had to have my drivers side seat heater replaced on my LS, and noticed that the dealership sublet the job out to an upholstery shop as well. It appears that its *possible* that the job requires special tools used for removal and installation of upholstery.
Is like asking people their favorite color. I found out that high pressure isn't necessarily the best for me. If you inflate the tires until the sidewalls are rigid you may as well be on Flintstones (i.e. made of stone) than Firestones. I played with pressure on my LS with the 17" Firestones and best performance was at 36-38 psi. Just enough flex to scuff the sidewall down about 1/2" from the top. My Fiero autocrosser with its taller sidewalls (215-60-15) was an even bigger difference. I started at 40 psi and I swear the paint stripes would upset my car in a hard corner. I dropped pressure to 35 and gained two seconds on the course - the handling noticeably softer but more controllable.
E-mail me, I think I have some interesting info for you, about a company that produces interfacing devices that eliminate splicing into the factory wiring.
I'm considering a 2002 LS in a month or two, but wanted to hear from those that have experience driving this car in the snow and ice. Being rear wheel drive I'm concerned about stability in these kinds of conditions. Thanks in advance.
As thomas said it all depends. Driving style, temperature, track condition, car, all play a factor. Best bet mark up the sidewall with some white shoe polish and do a run. If the shoe polish is mostly intact on the sidewall close to the tread then you're running the right pressure.
My suggestion? Experiment with the pressures until it feels right for you.
The article referenced below talks about several things including how Detroit has focused on quality but has forgotten what it takes to build product-pleasing vehicles (though I think Lincoln got it right!)
Those who bought the LS expecting a much improved Taurus SHO are laughing. Those who thought that the LS was a combination of BMW performance and Infiniti fit/finish/attention to detail and dealership service are, shall we say, not laughing.
The LS 8 is adequate in the snow for a RWD. The traction control does an admiral job, however, there are occassions when you you have to do some minor countersteering, like on icy conditions. The worst is driving in slush where the stock Firestone acts more like a ski sometimes, it has a tendency to hyrdoplane, you must just slow down and know your limitations. It's a blast to turn off the traction control and do power slides, I do it often so I can get the feel back at the beginning of winter. I live 20 miles south of the Canadian border in NY along Lake Champlain, so, I have a lot of experience in winter condtions. So far, I haven't been stuck or got into situations I couldn't get out of. Hope this answers some ?????'s about how this car is in the winter. PS: The heated seats are awesome.
I live in Central Texas, so I know virtually nothing about "real" winter driving (except to know that I probably shouldn't try it:)), but I would urge you to consider getting the All-Season Package option.
This package includes AdvanceTrac, a sophisticated upgrade to the standard traction control system. It monitors speed, steering input, and angle/attitude of the vehicle, among other things, and can individually apply brakes and reduce throttle to bring the car back in line if it senses a problem.
Even though I'm not in a snow-prone area, I ordered AdvanceTrac; I figure if it saves me once, it's well worth the price.
For the '02 model year, the All-Season Package consists of AdvanceTrac and heated seats, and lists for $735. Last year these were separate options and listed for $1135, so for '02 you're in effect getting the heated seats for no charge.
The LLSOC December newsletter is now online at www.llsoc.com. Just click on the Newsletter link.
I emailed it out to everyone on the mailing list, however, my email list provider seems to be listed on some anti-spam lists since I have a ton of emails kicking back.
Since I hate spam mail as much as the next person I have decided to cease emailing the newsletter out and just publish it online since I don't want to cause any problems with email providers.
ronniepooh: On top of the fuse box behind the passenger side kick panel are some plugs going into what look like three relays. I was able to poke my VOM probe alongside the wires into the plugs to find a switched power lead for my radar detector. If you pop the front end of the plastic door sill piece up you can easily remove the entire kick panel for a little extra working room. Everything snaps apart, and goes right back together perfectly.
captdavid: My tires also wore more in the center, at 30 psi since new. At LS Mania2 an engineer told me that was typical of the rear tires on high performance RWD cars. Mine are even due to regular rotation. Guess it's normal.
kicker9, does your LS have AdvanceTrac? I'm well versed in the countersteer technique you describe, but so far AdvanceTrac has kept me from having to practice it.
Let's be fair; it's been a while but there have been posts from people getting rid of the Firestones for reasons of personal safety, misguided or not.
Just read thru the exchange over on the "Brand B" board. Every time I venture around the other boards, I'm reminded once again of the time I spent car shopping last year before buying the LS. I was, and still am, very impressed with the overall courtesy, civility, and helpfulness of the participants in this forum. We don't always agree, of course, but I've never had the feeling someone was about to ask me outside to see who could pee the farthest.
I've even found a reason to be glad someone has abandoned the LS in favor of BMW!
I have a 2001 w/Sport Pkg. which has the ATS, it functions as designed when the car is driven (NORMALLY) A nice feature is you can give max acceleration with the pedal without getting wheel spin, good for us that are normally lead footed. It won't help, however, if you intentionally move the steering wheel rapidly back and forth trying to create rear end slide, I guess no system can overcome stupidity. I suggest trying it out in unconfined spaces. I've been in Texas several times, take an oil soaked highway immediately after it starts raining and magnify that by 10 and you'll have snow like conditions. Better yet, wait till the rain washes the surfaces clean--don't try this at home. Kicker
I don't know if it's the smell of my e-mail but, you sure always have to comment rudely back whenever I make a post. Why do you always speak for everyone else by saying that people didn't replace the Firestones because of a safety margin; look back at earlier posts; you'll find out that it was just the case for spending $160 per tire verses $69 a tire. How can you put out that I'm looking to screw up my car; I have prior experience running on 1/8 mile drag strips, working on (part-time mechanic on 67'-01')cars, knowing that lower radial tires eg: 45 series and lower work better with higher psi; not telling people that they should run that high psi in stock tires or else! The recommended tire psi from the manufacturer is at the average to get the best quality ride out of your car with the OEM brand tires; not to get the best handling potential out of the car. That was my whole point earlier on about higher psi; to get better performance out of the car's handling.
Your statement on HID conversion also left a sour taste in my mouth by not telling me if you used or tried them; only by your pestimestic view included that link to not use HID xenon's cause of wrongful reflector in non-xenon made housings. That is probualy why I posted a question knowing that same exact answer. I wanted to know if anyone tried it and what the turnout was for them. You must have great doubts on the LS and it's reflectors(I think that they are good reflectors IMHO) and pithy views on upcoming LS's. By the way, are you a Ford exec? And if you are, I understand why the LS isn't everything it could and should be.
Victor, You get the flag when you set your country in your user profile. Looks like yours is already set; maybe you should try editing your profile & saving it again...
I reread akirby's post and did not see anything there that could be construed as being rude. Your statement of, "are you a Ford exec? And if you are, I understand why the LS isn't everything it could and should be" is a true rude remark. He simply said he personally didn't like the Firestones. I also seem to have missed the part where he supposedly said to not run high psi in one's tires "or else". Could you point that remark out to me? I agree that doing so brings additional dangers, but whether to accept them or not is one's own responsibility. Just because in a former life you have done some drag racing does not qualify you to overrule the tire engineers on the limitations of their own creations anymore than my being a detailer qualifies me to tell FoMoCo how they ought to paint their cars.
As for HID conversions: EVERY HID conversion kit manufacturer I have looked at (no, I can't verify that I have examined 100% of them) states how critical the reflector is to proper light output. So your statement, "only by your pestimestic [sic] view included that link to not use HID xenon's cause [sic] of wrongful reflector in non-xenon made housings" is just plain wrong. There is nothing pessimistic about it, akirby is just acknowledging reality.
If you are truly as omniscient as your posts seem to make you then you realize you need to lighten up a little. We all have our OPINIONS and just like the old saying goes, "Opinions are like ***holes, everybody has one and they all stink."
keyrow, I feel a soft spot for akirby in your writing. Are you his guardian or vise-versa. On the HID case; did you read back to my question? If so you would know that the question I asked had nothing to do with the link he posted. I know about different reflector design and optics and how it effects lighting output, aim, cutoff, etc of a arc type capsule on a non-OEM xenon kit. I thought we went over this already? That's probualy why I asked if anyone used them. Do you see a difference? I guess not. I'm going to be a man a quit this discussion of nonsense. Oh, one thing more,"or else" that was my line not his; it was to his remark saying, "If I want to destroy my car... don't convince others into the same"
Leadfoot4, No, this is not GIOWA; why do you say that? I'm just speaking my right and knowledge, that's all. I just like getting positive responses back when leaving a question; not always a smart-azz remark from the same people. I do understand that we all have opinions here but, being a wiseazz with me constantly doesn't make me a nice guy either.
Thanks JLINC, I didn't know it did it based on your country selection. I guess its where you are residing not necessarily your nationality.
Huh. So I guess we shouldn't assume if you are flying an American flag your an American Citizen. Could be Chinese for all we know! Not that it matters just interesting behavior for the Flag Selection.
Once Again Thanks. Apparently I set it when I put down what country I was from when I edited my profile. Hasn't been edited since I first joined back in late part of 1999 when I became involved in the LS Forum... Man its been a while.
Good to see most of y'all are still here...
BTW my flag was not set for all messages, until today when I set my country. Apparently it pulls the owner information of a message every time because it went back and Added my flag now to all the previous messages. So If I was to change flags again all previous messages would display the new flag, not only new ones from this point on.
Why do you constantly misinterpret or misquote what I've posted? You don't seem to want to hear anything negative about things you've done or planned to do to your LS, even if they're 100% true. Now let's try this one last time. Try to pay attention.
intake modification - putting the air intake too low in the front of the car is very dangerous. You run a VERY HIGH risk of ingesting water if you hit a puddle. If you understand this and still choose to do it, fine. But others who may see your post and think it's ok deserve to know the risks involved. Brian told you the same thing. I even gave you examples of the explorer problem to prove it's possible and you still don't believe me. What makes you such an expert and so much smarter than everyone else, including the entire automotive engineering community?
tire pressure - running high psi is fine as long as you don't exceed the maximum psi rating on the sidewall. And you don't mind potentially uneven wear. The max psi on mine and Brian's Pilot Sports is 51, so running 45 is ok, but not 55. The tire mfr knows what psi is safe and by exceeding that number you are asking for a failure. If you understand that and want to take that risk, go right ahead. But I feel obligated to make sure everyone else understands that it's potentially dangerous and not recommended by any tire mfr. Maybe you're confusing the maximum PSI with the vehicle mfr's recommended pressure - 2 totally different things.
xenon HID replacements - the point of the article is that even if you replace the bulbs with true xenon bulbs you may not get the better performance that you expected due to the reflectors. It has nothing to do with the quality of the reflectors. Each reflector has to be customized to the light housing, lens and bulb in each vehicle to get the maximum performance. Substituting a different bulb may require a different reflector configuration for optimum performance. Another example of this is people with first and second generation explorers who substituted higher wattage bulbs but got no improvement because the reflectors were so bad. And at one time they were not DOT legal.
As for the Firestones, I NEVER ONCE said there was any safety issue with the Firehawks. If I was worried about that I wouldn't have left them on for 2 years.
If you have facts that dispute what I've said above then please post them for everyone's benefit. Otherwise keep your unfounded whining to yourself. If you don't like the advice from this group then go find a different one.
This is my first time posting a message on this forum and I wanna see how good of a response I am going to get. I would like someone to explain to me why American Luxury Marques just CANT GET IT RIGHT. Well thats according to almost all of the Magazine critics. I mean when the Licoln LS came out in late 99' I thought "Finally a car that can shut up all of those critics who say that American Sport Sedans just arent as good as what comes from across the damn ocean(meaning BMW, Mercedes,Lexus and the like.) I have yet to drive an LS but it looks to me like its a pretty good car and should be able to get the job done. But once again I am proven wrong. I start to read the comparison tests, and the Lincoln LS is barely posting mid-pack finishes. There are complaints about all sorts of things from the cars lack of power compared with others in its class even with the V8. and if they arent criticizing the cars power, theyre criticizing the numbers that the cars posting.If thats not being done, it's the build quality, or the poor materials used for a 38 thousand dollar car when compared to others. I am sick of all the cricism I just wonder why Lincoln or Cadillac for that matter, just can't seem to get it right.
Gee, I just posted yesterday about that very thing. What timing.
BTW, in doing so I made a jesting but rude comment referring to a particular person. It's been brought to my attention that my comment might well be taken 100% seriously and cause offense. This was not my intent, though is my fault since I foolishly expect everyone to know when I'm kidding around. I apologize for my lack of courtesy.
americanstndrd: Have you driven the car(s) and formed any opinions of your own? Seriously, $35-40k is a lot of bread to be spending based on magazine writers' opinions. I like hearing why someone chose Audi, BMW, Lexus, etc. over the LS; it will make me a smarter customer next time. The LS can stand criticism, so can most of us here, but better reasons than magazine reviews make for more interesting discussion.
And did you know that it's hard to stuff four new Firehawks into the back of an LS, even with the rear seatbacks down, because of the confounded Intrusive Trunk Hinges?
<<<<<<<<<I start to read the comparison tests, and the Lincoln LS is barely posting mid-pack finishes. There are complaints about all sorts of things from the cars lack of power compared with others in its class even with the V8. and if they arent criticizing the cars power, theyre criticizing the numbers that the cars posting.If thats not being done, it's the build quality, or the poor materials used for a 38 thousand dollar car when compared to others.>>>>>>>>>
My 2 cents. The reviewers are afraid if they write a review that is too positive on a car such as the LS vs a BMW for example they will be viewed as not being a car nut and lacking in knowledge. I bought my LS because I thought it to be close enough to the european sports sedan type of car as far as handeling goes and because it had the following features: front engine/rear wheel drive, V8, sports suspension package was available, fairly luxurous, quick, parts would be a whole lot cheaper than BMW etc, I wouldn't have to bend over and lube up at the service check out counter, and the car is like what one reviewer said an unbelievable bargin. If you are worried about that last "tenth" of handeling then go pay the price but on the exit ramp I'll be right behind and I'll have fifteen grand to buy new sails and other stuff for my boat that you won't have. By the way 5,000 miles on my 2002 Silver Sport V8 and not one problem, no vibrations, rear windows still work, headlights are fine and the transmission is flawless. I've driven a lot of cars and none are perfect. This car is a gem for not a lot of money compaired to it's competition.
Scottc8, no problem with hauling those tires. I know a guy with an old car with some 50K on it that can just toss them in his trunk (or back seat -- its an old car) and haul them for you :-}.
Got to tell you I wanted a new 540i so bad I could taste it, but I leased a 2001(now 2002) $40,400 LS V8 and a $42,400 A6 Quattro (for my spouse) for a total of about $200 more a month than the best 540i lease deal I could get! With tier 1 credit, you can get $40K LSes on 36 month leases, no down, no deposit, first payment paid by Red Carpet, three year maintenance, four year bumper to bumper warranty, for under $475/mo. all day long. The Lincoln LS is the content/value leader by a country mile! Its amazing that with the sky high residuals that are quoted for, say, a 5 series, you can't come close to that price, buying or leasing.
I now had my V8-LS sport for over two years (and ~12k miles) with no problems except for those early factory recalls the car is perfect. The handling for the price is so fantastic that calling it "unbelievable bargain" could be an understatement. This car maybe be the best bargin on the planet! All it needs is better marketing by LM and PAG so more people test drive one and buy one!
More of my 2 cents: The last time a a car this good came along at this kind of value was the 1971 Pantera at $9995.00. I think in 72 it went to $10,995. I coulda, woulda, shulda.
1) 2000 models had tranny shifting problems and a few quality problems which most reviewers encountered. Most have not retested a 2001 or 2002 model to see that all of those problems have been fixed.
2) power is a little lacking. The V8 performance is closer to competition's V6 offerings. This should be fixed in 2003.
3) dash (especially center console) is rather cheap looking for this class of car. Wood trim kit helps a lot but again testers only see the factory offering. Hopefully this will also be addressed for 2003.
4) Brand prejudice. nuff said.
I think if the LS gets the power upgrades, interior upgrades and a high performance (preferably manual) version (think SVT) to compete against the 540i and M5 and E55 then I think the press will stand up and take notice. Assuming there are no new quality problems that crop up in the meantime. Any problem tends to be amplified in the LS and downplayed in the competition. Just check out Edmunds own long term tests of the LS and BMW.
Please test drive a LS before you pay attention to the car magazines. While I'm sure they attempt to be impartial, the fact is that if they tick off all the advertisers that they get each month that are tied to a particular car brand, they wouldn't have advertisers which means they couldn't publish their magazine.
Look at the heavy hitters in the automobile magazine advertising. BMW is probably up there around number 1 or 2. Especially if you include all the ancillary advertising that goes along with the brand. Now just imagine that all of a sudden the LS took top spot consistently and the BMW was panned. How long do you think it would be before BMW stopped advertising in that magazine?
Around here you can't go an hour without hearing a BMW/Lexus commercial. I suspect it's the same in heavy BMW/Lexus areas of the country. So it's not coincidence that more people buy them. No matter what people say they go into a dealership and a car with expectations based on magazine articles, and radio and tv advertising.
What would really be interesting is if you de-badged and cloaked both a BMW 540i and a LS V-8 and put them both in a BMW showroom, if people who have never driven either one would be able to tell which one was the BMW. Then let them drive both of them and ask the same question. I honestly don't think I would be able to tell the difference and I honestly feel, neither would they.
Actually, the LS-8's 252 HP is greater than most of the European and Japanese competition for models that don't cost WAYYYY MORE than the Lincoln. Also, the Lincoln LS is larger than most of the cars it is compared with, and it provides better seating space and even more luggage space than most of them.
Some Lincoln LS reviews were done before the latest reflash data sets that have addressed most of the automatic transmission complaints; hence most of the criticism about the transmission is obsolete.
Except for a few apparently very unlucky LS owners who have had a very unfortunate collection of failures and problems, most of us have had extremely few problems. Most of the problems people have had have been really rather minor, albeit annoying, such as the rear window regulators. Lincoln claims to have a new design now that REALLY corrects this problem. So far, after two years and almost 35,000 miles and living in the desert Southwest, my regulators have never failed. Also, I haven't had any vibrations or rattles or leaks. The only problem I have had was an intermittent connector on the Passive Anti-Theft System.. hard to find; easy to fix.
The majority of Lincoln LS owners I've heard from have had very few problems.
I've read complaints about the quality of the (fake) wood grain, about the quality of the leather, and about the quality of the door mats. I think the leather is just fine, and the seats are wonderfully comfortable. I'd rather have the fake wood grain than REAL wood, because the plastic stuff is a lot more durable. When the door mats wear out, I'll buy new ones.
If I had it to do all over again, I'd buy this same car again in a heartbeat. It is the best car I've ever owned, and I haven't seen any other car I think might be better that doesn't cost AT LEAST $10,000 more.
The car mags MUST be either owned or financed by the Germans and Japanese. I quit R & T years ago as the things for which they critisized American cars were fully acceptable, even desired, in the foreign marques. They constantly call the BMW interior Tutonic and business-like. The same layout in an American car is bland, boring and cheap. For a laugh, read the 330 review here at Edmunds. What is a HUGE issue with the LS tranny is just a minor annoyance on the BMW. If you read between the lines on their non-American reviews, the foreign marques have their share of issues. One of these testers will have to explain to me how the BMW strut suspension in superior to the LS' aluminum short and long-arm, IRS suspension pieces. The LS suspension is far superior to any strut set-up. To me it's kinda like ABC not allowing their news anchors (kind of an appropiate name, don't you think?) to wear American flags. I guess, if they aren't financed overseas, they feel they are giving preferential treatment to the home market if they actually LIKED an American car. Granted, there were some duds in the late 70's/early 80's, but quality has been right up there since. I have a total 460 THOUSAND miles combined on the 4 Sables we've had. They all, including our present one (with 105k), are GREAT cars. If you read the mags, these cars should be avoided like the plague! Mine have been very reliable. Sure, normal stuff had to be replaced, but the engines were as strong upon retirement as the day we brought them home! I agree with rgnmstr. The writers don't want to look "stupid" by actually liking an American car. IMHO, they will NEVER change.
Just my $.08 (adjusted for my long windedness (is that even a word?) and inflation).
I'll try to give you a reasoned response from an owner's perspective. All things considered, I think that Lincoln DID get it right in so many ways. You have to remember that this is Lincoln's first-EVER attempt at building a world-class sports sedan; for the first crack out of the box, I think the results are admirable.
I've had my '01 V8 Sport for nearly 16 months. After 19,000 miles, the car has been virtually flawless. My only visits to the dealer have been for routine maintenance; during one of those visits, I had the recall for the torque setting on the front ball-joints done (my nuts were within spec ), and I've had NO problems whatsoever.
This car is a superb handler. I find it to be extremely well-planted, and very comfortable on the road. The seats are outstanding; after 3 or 4 hours behind the wheel, I'm not the least bit fatigued. It's exceptionally well-balanced, and works great in the wet as well as in the dry. I do wish it was quicker off the mark--I want to see more work done in the area of putting the power to the ground--but in real-world driving it has plenty of juice when you need to pass someone on the freeway.
It has plenty of bells and whistles, too; finding a comfortable driving position is a snap, what with the seat & steering wheel adjustments and memory, and it has the sort of luxury features that one would expect in this class of car. My sound system is adequate, but could be better, and the console definitely needs more storage space, but all in all it's been a great car to live with, and I find the Jaguar-derived engine to be extremely smooth.
Perhaps some of the interior materials could be of a higher grade, but my car shows very little if any wear--the leather still looks new. In short, I'm very pleased with my purchase.
You must consider the fact that BMW, the acknowledged leader in sports sedans, has been building them since the 1960s. They've had the better part of 40 years to perfect the technique, so excellence from them in this class of car should be expected. Mercedes has been doing their thing for a long time, too; so have Audi and Jaguar. Lexus had the advantage of establishing their reputation from a clean slate and chose a relatively narrow focus while drawing on Toyota's engineering and financial power, and they've done it well, but they've not concentrated on the true sports sedan market until relatively recently.
When you compare prices, a similar-sized BMW V8 sedan (540), comparably equipped, lists for about $16,000 more than the LS V8 Sport. That's about 40% higher, so it darn well SHOULD be noticeably better. The V8 Lexus and Mercedes are similarly pricey. I think marketing decisions are at least partly responsible for the LS not having more power; requiring it to have fewer ponies and a (slightly) smaller engine than the Jag S-type 4.0 was a mistake, IMHO, but that's the way it happened.
Would I have liked to see more incremental improvements to the LS since introduction? Sure; cars should always get better. From what we're hearing, the '03 LS will have some exciting improvements, and I can't wait to see them.
BMW and Mercedes have a distinct advantage in resale value at this point, and that's something that will take time to change. Since the LS is such a new concept for Lincoln, it's sometimes been difficult to market and service the car in the existing dealer network; owners of premium cars expect premium treatment, and that hasn't always been the case for the LS.
Changing dealer mindsets is a huge task; once again, BMW and Merc have been at this for a long time, and Lexus had the advantage of setting their dealer rules and procedures with a clean slate. It'll take time (and money) for Lincoln to meet those standards, and there has to be profit to pay those bills. They're working on it, though.
Many of us have had the opportunity to meet some of the people who are responsible for designing and producing the LS, and I can assure you that they are REAL car nuts with world-class talent and boundless enthusiasm. I think things are very good now, and am optimistic that they'll continue to get better.
I'm obviously pro-LS, so it's hard to be totally objective, but I think some of the reviewers tend to subtly downgrade the car because it's a Lincoln. More than once I've read, "I can't believe this is a Lincoln!" from some car-mag writer. Some of the criticisms in the Edmunds long-term test are, I think, unfounded, but there are also lots of raves in there, too--as there are in most of the reviews. The LS, overall, has been well-received by the automotive press, but I'd feel better if it came up first or second in some of those 8-car comparisons. I think it will in time, but we'll have to wait and see.
My advice? Drive the car. Drive the competition. Do your "due diligence" on the tangibles--how much will it cost, in real dollars, to drive an LS off the lot versus a 5-series Bimmer, and how much will it really cost to operate? How does it perform; how does it feel? How much room does it have? I think you'll find the LS to be an excellent value and a real bargain compared to much/most of the competition.
I think it's a really, really fine car; drive one, and see what you think.
I just realized something else that is hampering Lincoln. Look at the competition. BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar, Lexus. They all make very high priced luxury cars at least $80K and higher. Lincoln has never competed in that arena. I think the R&D and technology that is developed for those very expensive cars filter down into the lower priced models. Lincoln has said they are moving into that higher market with Mercury stepping up from Ford to fill in between. I think that's great news and will allow Lincoln to compete even better in the future. Differentiating the dealerships will also help. I hear Lincoln won't even share a building with Mercury anymore. Let's hope the transformation makes it into the service departments as well.
As all of the LLSOC signatures indicate, the car itself is able to cause excitement and appreciation. This has occurred spontaneously and without a relationship to "image" or great advertising and press coverage.
To paraphrase Packard (?) advertising, ask the person who owns one.
Comments
One thing to keep in mind; the lower aspect ratio tires you go with, the more it benifets with higher pressure. Give a low-profile all the psi she can handle and than some; the side-walls are stronger the lower profile you go and were built for that sole purpose. The actual tread gets flatter while the sidewall gets more ridged(straight)with higher psi(pounds per square inch). With a low aspect tire eg:245-40 18; running at the factory recommended pressure of the stockers that the car came with the lower ratio tires would lead to disaster with the side-wall buckling under high-speed cornering and possibly come out from under the rim.
Now, on the other side of the spectrum; I would not recommend inflating Bias or big mud bogging Radials to extreme pressures to where is would bow out; that could lead to an explosion or failure of the tire. I don't think anyone on this site will probualy put monster-size tires on their LS's(IMHO let's hope not.)On a personal note, I've been running anywhere from 40-45psi both front and rear(I try to keep it even)in my tires for several months now and I have gotten used to the rougher ride plus the added (ultra)traction of the normal twists and bends in the roads. The car feels even more like it's on rails. I guess it's not as smooth(rougher)compared to 35-38psi but, after awile you don't even feel it and it becomes more natural. I personally think the car should of came with 18" and 40 series tires from the factory or at least as an option for the New Ultimate Driving Machine LS1BMW0! That as an option would get also more of a younger demograph in the market for a Lincoln = more sales + more of a market for the LS's eg: aftermarket mods,perf.
Felt like adding my own experience and $0.02 worth,
Mike
To say the Wilderness A/T tires didn't have a problem is simply ignoring the facts. Low psi was a contributor but the fact remains that Goodyear and Michelins didn't separate - Firestones did. I guess Ford paid off the NHTSA so they blamed the tires and not the explorer?
Your statement about max tire pressure seems to hint that it's safe to run over the mfr recommended PSI. There is obviously a safety margin built into it but you have no way of knowing how big that margin is or how close you are to it. Exceeding max pressure is dangerous - period.
If you want to destroy your own vehicle with overinflated tires and water sucking intake modifications go right ahead. But stop trying to convince others that it's safe.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/hot/Firestone/firestonesummary.html
You'll note that tire pressure was not the cause of the tread separation. Akirby correctly notes that vehicles fitted with original equipment Goodyear tires with the same recommended pressure had no problems. Other manufacturer SUVs on the road today also use the same recommended psi of 26 without tread separation problems.
The tires were deemed defective because the belt wedge thickness was usually narrower than other manufacturers tires, and the wedge gauge was often less than Firestone's own specs for that dimension. Because of this the tires did not resist the "initiation and propagation of belt-edge cracks between the steel belts".
Additionally the gauge of the rubber between the two steel belts spec'd by Firestone was less than other manufacturers and the gauge of this rubber in the tires actually produced were sometimes "far less" than Firestone's own design spec. Also, the Wilderness tires tested would "exhibit a series of weak spots around the tire's circumference" which led to the "initiation and growth of cracks earlier than in competitor tires" and other tires made by Firestone for SUVs.
Still working on my mobile video project in my 2000 LS V6 Sport. I initially ordered a set of 5.6 inch monitors, but the housing was too thick for the stealth/flush install I was seeking. I also was unsure of my skills with regards to cutting into the headrests. So, I allowed the internet vendor that sold me the monitors to examine my headrests in person, then decide what he felt was best. He's installed 5.6 inch LCD Modules (raw LCD's with no plastic housings) into the headrests, and he's shipping them back to me this week. I will perform the wiring and remaining install of the DVD player in the trunk. I have yet to see a setup where TV reception is anything other then fair to poor when the vehicle is in motion, so I opted to forgo a Tuner, and just go DVD at this time. I plan to use an FM modulator to allow the sound to come through the factory stereo. (This prevents any cutting or hacking into the factory stereo wiring to obtain sound). I also plan to add wireless headphones at a later time.
Can someone tell me the colors/locations of wires that are switched hots? If this wire is upfront, I will run a single wire from this source, and tap into this one wire for power for the two monitors, fm modulator, and DVD player.
Thanx in advance..
http://www.nhtsa.gov/hot/Firestone/firestonesummary.html
You'll note that tire pressure was not the cause of the tread separation. Akirby correctly notes that vehicles fitted with original equipment Goodyear tires with the same recommended pressure had no problems. Other manufacturer SUVs on the road today also use the same recommended psi of 26 without tread separation problems.
The tires were deemed defective because the belt wedge thickness was usually narrower than other manufacturers tires, and the wedge gauge was often less than Firestone's own specs for that dimension. Because of this the tires did not resist the "initiation and propagation of belt-edge cracks between the steel belts".
Additionally the gauge of the rubber between the two steel belts spec'd by Firestone was less than other manufacturers and the gauge of this rubber in the tires actually produced were sometimes "far less" than Firestone's own design spec. Also, the Wilderness tires tested would "exhibit a series of weak spots around the tire's circumference" which led to the "initiation and growth of cracks earlier than in competitor tires" and other tires made by Firestone for SUVs.
Most autocrossers run a lot higher pressures for street tires due to wanting to have the sidewalls as stiff as possible to prevent rollunder.
While I won't get embroiled in the higher/lower tire pressure discussion, I personally run my tires at 35 psi on the street. These Michelins in the 45 series have a lot better transient response at higher pressures. At 45 psi they have a knife-edge handling feel to them. The maximum pressure on these particular tires is 51 psi so I know they can handle them. When I had the stones on I ran them at 35 psi also. But each person has to be comfortable at any changes from manufacturers recommendations. If you feel that 30 psi is adequate for your driving needs stick with it. Only you can determine what feels right for you.
YMMV
I would suggest trying to buy existing heated seats from a junkyard instead.
Brian
That is what I am hearing....But I guess it also depends on driving style soft and consistent all around or really pushing to the edge?
Regards,
Airwolf1000
E-mail me, I think I have some interesting info for you, about a company that produces interfacing devices that eliminate splicing into the factory wiring.
Tom
LLSOC Charter Member
My suggestion? Experiment with the pressures until it feels right for you.
http://www.auto.com/reuters1.htm
Those who bought the LS expecting a much improved Taurus SHO are laughing. Those who thought that the LS was a combination of BMW performance and Infiniti fit/finish/attention to detail and dealership service are, shall we say, not laughing.
Thanks for the link, jhoffman61.
This package includes AdvanceTrac, a sophisticated upgrade to the standard traction control system. It monitors speed, steering input, and angle/attitude of the vehicle, among other things, and can individually apply brakes and reduce throttle to bring the car back in line if it senses a problem.
Even though I'm not in a snow-prone area, I ordered AdvanceTrac; I figure if it saves me once, it's well worth the price.
For the '02 model year, the All-Season Package consists of AdvanceTrac and heated seats, and lists for $735. Last year these were separate options and listed for $1135, so for '02 you're in effect getting the heated seats for no charge.
I emailed it out to everyone on the mailing list, however, my email list provider seems to be listed on some anti-spam lists since I have a ton of emails kicking back.
Since I hate spam mail as much as the next person I have decided to cease emailing the newsletter out and just publish it online since I don't want to cause any problems with email providers.
Brian
captdavid: My tires also wore more in the center, at 30 psi since new. At LS Mania2 an engineer told me that was typical of the rear tires on high performance RWD cars. Mine are even due to regular rotation. Guess it's normal.
kicker9, does your LS have AdvanceTrac? I'm well versed in the countersteer technique you describe, but so far AdvanceTrac has kept me from having to practice it.
Let's be fair; it's been a while but there have been posts from people getting rid of the Firestones for reasons of personal safety, misguided or not.
Scott
LLSOC Member
I've even found a reason to be glad someone has abandoned the LS in favor of BMW!
Sorry, back to the topic . . .
I've been in Texas several times, take an oil soaked highway immediately after it starts raining and magnify that by 10 and you'll have snow like conditions. Better yet, wait till the rain washes the surfaces clean--don't try this at home. Kicker
Your statement on HID conversion also left a sour taste in my mouth by not telling me if you used or tried them; only by your pestimestic view included that link to not use HID xenon's cause of wrongful reflector in non-xenon made housings. That is probualy why I posted a question knowing that same exact answer. I wanted to know if anyone tried it and what the turnout was for them. You must have great doubts on the LS and it's reflectors(I think that they are good reflectors IMHO) and pithy views on upcoming LS's. By the way, are you a Ford exec? And if you are, I understand why the LS isn't everything it could and should be.
Mike
Regards,
V.
You get the flag when you set your country in your user profile. Looks like yours is already set; maybe you should try editing your profile & saving it again...
JLinc, LLSOC charter member
As for HID conversions: EVERY HID conversion kit manufacturer I have looked at (no, I can't verify that I have examined 100% of them) states how critical the reflector is to proper light output. So your statement, "only by your pestimestic [sic] view included that link to not use HID xenon's cause [sic] of wrongful reflector in non-xenon made housings" is just plain wrong. There is nothing pessimistic about it, akirby is just acknowledging reality.
If you are truly as omniscient as your posts seem to make you then you realize you need to lighten up a little. We all have our OPINIONS and just like the old saying goes, "Opinions are like ***holes, everybody has one and they all stink."
Did giowa have his name changed ?? (hope I don't get censored)
I feel a soft spot for akirby in your writing. Are you his guardian or vise-versa. On the HID case; did you read back to my question? If so you would know that the question I asked had nothing to do with the link he posted. I know about different reflector design and optics and how it effects lighting output, aim, cutoff, etc of a arc type capsule on a non-OEM xenon kit. I thought we went over this already? That's probualy why I asked if anyone used them. Do you see a difference? I guess not. I'm going to be a man a quit this discussion of nonsense. Oh, one thing more,"or else" that was my line not his; it was to his remark saying, "If I want to destroy my car... don't convince others into the same"
Leadfoot4,
No, this is not GIOWA; why do you say that? I'm just speaking my right and knowledge, that's all. I just like getting positive responses back when leaving a question; not always a smart-azz remark from the same people. I do understand that we all have opinions here but, being a wiseazz with me constantly doesn't make me a nice guy either.
Peace brothers,
Mike
Huh. So I guess we shouldn't assume if you are flying an American flag your an American Citizen. Could be Chinese for all we know! Not that it matters just interesting behavior for the Flag Selection.
Once Again Thanks. Apparently I set it when I put down what country I was from when I edited my profile. Hasn't been edited since I first joined back in late part of 1999 when I became involved in the LS Forum... Man its been a while.
Good to see most of y'all are still here...
BTW my flag was not set for all messages, until today when I set my country. Apparently it pulls the owner information of a message every time because it went back and Added my flag now to all the previous messages. So If I was to change flags again all previous messages would display the new flag, not only new ones from this point on.
Regards,
Airwolf
intake modification - putting the air intake too low in the front of the car is very dangerous. You run a VERY HIGH risk of ingesting water if you hit a puddle. If you understand this and still choose to do it, fine. But others who may see your post and think it's ok deserve to know the risks involved. Brian told you the same thing. I even gave you examples of the explorer problem to prove it's possible and you still don't believe me. What makes you such an expert and so much smarter than everyone else, including the entire automotive engineering community?
tire pressure - running high psi is fine as long as you don't exceed the maximum psi rating on the sidewall. And you don't mind potentially uneven wear. The max psi on mine and Brian's Pilot Sports is 51, so running 45 is ok, but not 55. The tire mfr knows what psi is safe and by exceeding that number you are asking for a failure. If you understand that and want to take that risk, go right ahead. But I feel obligated to make sure everyone else understands that it's potentially dangerous and not recommended by any tire mfr. Maybe you're confusing the maximum PSI with the vehicle mfr's recommended pressure - 2 totally different things.
xenon HID replacements - the point of the article is that even if you replace the bulbs with true xenon bulbs you may not get the better performance that you expected due to the reflectors. It has nothing to do with the quality of the reflectors. Each reflector has to be customized to the light housing, lens and bulb in each vehicle to get the maximum performance. Substituting a different bulb may require a different reflector configuration for optimum performance. Another example of this is people with first and second generation explorers who substituted higher wattage bulbs but got no improvement because the reflectors were so bad. And at one time they were not DOT legal.
As for the Firestones, I NEVER ONCE said there was any safety issue with the Firehawks. If I was worried about that I wouldn't have left them on for 2 years.
If you have facts that dispute what I've said above then please post them for everyone's benefit. Otherwise keep your unfounded whining to yourself. If you don't like the advice from this group then go find a different one.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
BTW, in doing so I made a jesting but rude comment referring to a particular person. It's been brought to my attention that my comment might well be taken 100% seriously and cause offense. This was not my intent, though is my fault since I foolishly expect everyone to know when I'm kidding around. I apologize for my lack of courtesy.
americanstndrd: Have you driven the car(s) and formed any opinions of your own? Seriously, $35-40k is a lot of bread to be spending based on magazine writers' opinions. I like hearing why someone chose Audi, BMW, Lexus, etc. over the LS; it will make me a smarter customer next time. The LS can stand criticism, so can most of us here, but better reasons than magazine reviews make for more interesting discussion.
And did you know that it's hard to stuff four new Firehawks into the back of an LS, even with the rear seatbacks down, because of the confounded Intrusive Trunk Hinges?
Scott
LLSOC Member
My 2 cents. The reviewers are afraid if they write a review that is too positive on a car such as the LS vs a BMW for example they will be viewed as not being a car nut and lacking in knowledge. I bought my LS because I thought it to be close enough to the european sports sedan type of car as far as handeling goes and because it had the following features: front engine/rear wheel drive, V8, sports suspension package was available, fairly luxurous, quick, parts would be a whole lot cheaper than BMW etc, I wouldn't have to bend over and lube up at the service check out counter, and the car is like what one reviewer said an unbelievable bargin. If you are worried about that last "tenth" of handeling then go pay the price but on the exit ramp I'll be right behind and I'll have fifteen grand to buy new sails and other stuff for my boat that you won't have.
By the way 5,000 miles on my 2002 Silver Sport V8 and not one problem, no vibrations, rear windows still work, headlights are fine and the transmission is flawless. I've driven a lot of cars and none are perfect. This car is a gem for not a lot of money compaired to it's competition.
Got to tell you I wanted a new 540i so bad I could taste it, but I leased a 2001(now 2002) $40,400 LS V8 and a $42,400 A6 Quattro (for my spouse) for a total of about $200 more a month than the best 540i lease deal I could get!
With tier 1 credit, you can get $40K LSes on 36 month leases, no down, no deposit, first payment paid by Red Carpet, three year maintenance, four year bumper to bumper warranty, for under $475/mo. all day long. The Lincoln LS is the content/value leader by a country mile! Its amazing that with the sky high residuals that are quoted for, say, a 5 series, you can't come close to that price, buying or leasing.
1) 2000 models had tranny shifting problems and a few quality problems which most reviewers encountered. Most have not retested a 2001 or 2002 model to see that all of those problems have been fixed.
2) power is a little lacking. The V8 performance is closer to competition's V6 offerings. This should be fixed in 2003.
3) dash (especially center console) is rather cheap looking for this class of car. Wood trim kit helps a lot but again testers only see the factory offering. Hopefully this will also be addressed for 2003.
4) Brand prejudice. nuff said.
I think if the LS gets the power upgrades, interior upgrades and a high performance (preferably manual) version (think SVT) to compete against the 540i and M5 and E55 then I think the press will stand up and take notice. Assuming there are no new quality problems that crop up in the meantime. Any problem tends to be amplified in the LS and downplayed in the competition. Just check out Edmunds own long term tests of the LS and BMW.
Look at the heavy hitters in the automobile magazine advertising. BMW is probably up there around number 1 or 2. Especially if you include all the ancillary advertising that goes along with the brand. Now just imagine that all of a sudden the LS took top spot consistently and the BMW was panned. How long do you think it would be before BMW stopped advertising in that magazine?
Around here you can't go an hour without hearing a BMW/Lexus commercial. I suspect it's the same in heavy BMW/Lexus areas of the country. So it's not coincidence that more people buy them. No matter what people say they go into a dealership and a car with expectations based on magazine articles, and radio and tv advertising.
What would really be interesting is if you de-badged and cloaked both a BMW 540i and a LS V-8 and put them both in a BMW showroom, if people who have never driven either one would be able to tell which one was the BMW. Then let them drive both of them and ask the same question. I honestly don't think I would be able to tell the difference and I honestly feel, neither would they.
My rather long-winded, .000001 farthing.
Brian
LLSOC Kahuna
Some Lincoln LS reviews were done before the latest reflash data sets that have addressed most of the automatic transmission complaints; hence most of the criticism about the transmission is obsolete.
Except for a few apparently very unlucky LS owners who have had a very unfortunate collection of failures and problems, most of us have had extremely few problems. Most of the problems people have had have been really rather minor, albeit annoying, such as the rear window regulators. Lincoln claims to have a new design now that REALLY corrects this problem. So far, after two years and almost 35,000 miles and living in the desert Southwest, my regulators have never failed. Also, I haven't had any vibrations or rattles or leaks. The only problem I have had was an intermittent connector on the Passive Anti-Theft System.. hard to find; easy to fix.
The majority of Lincoln LS owners I've heard from have had very few problems.
I've read complaints about the quality of the (fake) wood grain, about the quality of the leather, and about the quality of the door mats. I think the leather is just fine, and the seats are wonderfully comfortable. I'd rather have the fake wood grain than REAL wood, because the plastic stuff is a lot more durable. When the door mats wear out, I'll buy new ones.
If I had it to do all over again, I'd buy this same car again in a heartbeat. It is the best car I've ever owned, and I haven't seen any other car I think might be better that doesn't cost AT LEAST $10,000 more.
Just my $.08 (adjusted for my long windedness (is that even a word?) and inflation).
Mike
LLSOC Charter Member
I've had my '01 V8 Sport for nearly 16 months. After 19,000 miles, the car has been virtually flawless. My only visits to the dealer have been for routine maintenance; during one of those visits, I had the recall for the torque setting on the front ball-joints done (my nuts were within spec
This car is a superb handler. I find it to be extremely well-planted, and very comfortable on the road. The seats are outstanding; after 3 or 4 hours behind the wheel, I'm not the least bit fatigued. It's exceptionally well-balanced, and works great in the wet as well as in the dry. I do wish it was quicker off the mark--I want to see more work done in the area of putting the power to the ground--but in real-world driving it has plenty of juice when you need to pass someone on the freeway.
It has plenty of bells and whistles, too; finding a comfortable driving position is a snap, what with the seat & steering wheel adjustments and memory, and it has the sort of luxury features that one would expect in this class of car. My sound system is adequate, but could be better, and the console definitely needs more storage space, but all in all it's been a great car to live with, and I find the Jaguar-derived engine to be extremely smooth.
Perhaps some of the interior materials could be of a higher grade, but my car shows very little if any wear--the leather still looks new. In short, I'm very pleased with my purchase.
You must consider the fact that BMW, the acknowledged leader in sports sedans, has been building them since the 1960s. They've had the better part of 40 years to perfect the technique, so excellence from them in this class of car should be expected. Mercedes has been doing their thing for a long time, too; so have Audi and Jaguar. Lexus had the advantage of establishing their reputation from a clean slate and chose a relatively narrow focus while drawing on Toyota's engineering and financial power, and they've done it well, but they've not concentrated on the true sports sedan market until relatively recently.
When you compare prices, a similar-sized BMW V8 sedan (540), comparably equipped, lists for about $16,000 more than the LS V8 Sport. That's about 40% higher, so it darn well SHOULD be noticeably better. The V8 Lexus and Mercedes are similarly pricey. I think marketing decisions are at least partly responsible for the LS not having more power; requiring it to have fewer ponies and a (slightly) smaller engine than the Jag S-type 4.0 was a mistake, IMHO, but that's the way it happened.
Would I have liked to see more incremental improvements to the LS since introduction? Sure; cars should always get better. From what we're hearing, the '03 LS will have some exciting improvements, and I can't wait to see them.
BMW and Mercedes have a distinct advantage in resale value at this point, and that's something that will take time to change. Since the LS is such a new concept for Lincoln, it's sometimes been difficult to market and service the car in the existing dealer network; owners of premium cars expect premium treatment, and that hasn't always been the case for the LS.
Changing dealer mindsets is a huge task; once again, BMW and Merc have been at this for a long time, and Lexus had the advantage of setting their dealer rules and procedures with a clean slate. It'll take time (and money) for Lincoln to meet those standards, and there has to be profit to pay those bills. They're working on it, though.
Many of us have had the opportunity to meet some of the people who are responsible for designing and producing the LS, and I can assure you that they are REAL car nuts with world-class talent and boundless enthusiasm. I think things are very good now, and am optimistic that they'll continue to get better.
I'm obviously pro-LS, so it's hard to be totally objective, but I think some of the reviewers tend to subtly downgrade the car because it's a Lincoln. More than once I've read, "I can't believe this is a Lincoln!" from some car-mag writer. Some of the criticisms in the Edmunds long-term test are, I think, unfounded, but there are also lots of raves in there, too--as there are in most of the reviews. The LS, overall, has been well-received by the automotive press, but I'd feel better if it came up first or second in some of those 8-car comparisons. I think it will in time, but we'll have to wait and see.
My advice? Drive the car. Drive the competition. Do your "due diligence" on the tangibles--how much will it cost, in real dollars, to drive an LS off the lot versus a 5-series Bimmer, and how much will it really cost to operate? How does it perform; how does it feel? How much room does it have? I think you'll find the LS to be an excellent value and a real bargain compared to much/most of the competition.
I think it's a really, really fine car; drive one, and see what you think.
JohnnyLinc, LLSOC charter member
As all of the LLSOC signatures indicate, the car itself is able to cause excitement and appreciation. This has occurred spontaneously and without a relationship to "image" or great advertising and press coverage.
To paraphrase Packard (?) advertising, ask the person who owns one.
John
LLSOC Charter Member