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In both the Subie and the VW, the loss in mileage is smaller than it usually is with 4WD, even though AWD is engaged full-time.
-juice
As I said, the Passat is not a sports car. But the power-to-weight ratio only gives you a singular number. It doesn’t tell you how you got there, i.e., how much torque you have available when you accelerate in a gear towards max power (which is the meaningless point where you switch gears).
The Passat has good low-end grunt like most V6s (206ft-lbs at 3200rpm), but unlike some, it likes to rev - as Juice said. Of course “likes to rev” is relative. 4500-5500 feels unstrained – high for many V6s, but it is not the 7000-8000rpm you see in some 4-bangers. The Subies’ H6 max torque is about the same, but it takes 4400rpm to get there. So with the VW you get a bit more torque down low, a little less up high – but the VW goes there (high) willingly, whereas the H6 lets you know it doesn’t really want to be there. To me (subjective), the H6 drives a bit like a more powerful H4, somewhat peaky in torque, it is better suited to the relaxed driver.
I’ll try to dig it up, I believe the Passat has better passing time than the V6 Accord which is rated at 240hp, which again, has roughly the same torque – but at 5000rpm(!). In other words, you have to wind up the Accord to 5000rpm before you can tell it has the same power.
- D
Revka
Host/Hatchbacks & Wagons
But yeah, the H6 needs revs too.
Any how, we're splitting hairs. Both engines are more than adequate for anyone's needs.
-juice
So far I drove the Matrix, RAV 4, CRV and today the Outback. So far the CRV and Outback are my favorites but after reading these posts I will have to try the Passat wagon - I love my husbands GTI.
Other suggestions are welcome!
My main point was that horsepower numbers can be deceiving and don't tell you much about how the car drives in practical terms. You are absolutely right about the minute differences between the V6 and the H6 engines. You are likely to account as much of a difference between two Passats (or two Outbacks) than between the two models, depending on how the car has been driven in, who last drove the car etc.
Sue,
As for alternatives: since you also looked at smallish cars/SUVs, many of us here would recommend the Forester. You may feel it handles a bit better than the Outback. And if you like power, in a few weeks the Forester Turbo should be available. Likewise, if you don't need AWD, the Jetta Wagon may be large enough for you. My personal opinion is that the Jetta Wagon beats the Matrix in all respects (except, perhaps, reliability). And then, on the expensive side there is always the Audi A4 wagon.
- D
Sue: I think you're on the right track. We shopped a similar list of cars and ended up buying a Legacy L (Outback minus the two-tone and the raised suspension). Good luck.
-juice
The Passat, on the other hand, will give you more ample leg room. In fact, I don't even have my driver's seat pushed all the way back in our 2003 Passat wagon. We have only one child, but we're still in the stroller/pack and play mode. On a recent trip, we had 4 suitcases, a folded pack n play, a stroller, a bag of gifts, and winter coats and everything fit in the "way-back," without obstructing our vision. We got almost 32 mpg (sorry can't give you the metric equiv.), while cruising at 72 mph (we have the 1.8T engine).
I see you live in Kitchener, Ontario. I don't know how much snow you typically see, but we had about 60" or 154 cm of snow this winter (which according the a Canadian website I found may be a bit less than you see on average). I live on top of a hill and I have not had any problems getting around with the OEM Michelin all-season tires. So you may not necessarily need a 4 motion VW, which could save you a good bit of money and will improve your fuel economy. Good luck with your search!
We have a 1998 Sienna and a 2000 Outback. We like the Sienna, and it has been a good vehicle for us, as our children are older (12 & 15 now - 7 & 10 when we bought it) than yours (assumed from your comment about car seats). As your children get older and you have to haul friends/teammates/Scouts around, the extra space may become needed.
I don't live in an area that gets as much snow as do you (I'm in Delaware) but this winter (and the fact we moved to a neighborhood with many more hills than our old one) proved the Sienna's shortcomings in the snow. The lack of limited slip differential didn't seem like such a big deal when we got it, but would have helped tremendously this winter.
My other complaints about the Sienna are the poor turning radius (my gas-guzzling land yacht Lincoln Mark VIII turns tighter than the Sienna), and the sloppy body roll during cornering/turning. I also have come to dislike the driver's seat -- bottom cushion is too short and doesn't adjust to enough of an angle for me (yes, should have gotten the 6-way electric seat!). Funny thing is, I drove the Sienna as my daily driver for the first 3 years we had it, and the seats didn't really bother me. Then I got the Mark VIII and my wife took the Sienna. I drove the Mark VIII as my daily driver for 18 months until last month when I got the Subaru. After the Mark and the Outback, which both have great seats/seating positions, I hate the driving position of the Sienna.
Otherwise, I like the Sienna's smaller size than other minivans (easier to park, better stopping distances, better acceleration, better fuel mileage -- all the benefits of less weight -- but I concede that if I had three children it would not be big enough) and the Toyota reliability and build quality. My wife doesn't seem to mind the driving/seating position of the Sienna, so it works out.
Good luck with your search. Fortunately, there are many smaller-than-minivan-size vehicles available now (Mazda 5, PT Cruiser, Matrix/Vibe, etc.) along with SUV alternatives (Outback and wagons from many other makers) and car-based small SUVs (RAV4, CRV, Forester etc.). So there are many more family-friendly choices than there were even 2-3 years ago.
-- K9Leader
We felt a little odd about owning two almost identical cars of the same year, due to potential problems related to a make/year.
We ultimately got her the Subaru Forester 2.5XS. A little smaller and less expensive than the Passat, less refined, more rugged, very good reliability and very versatile. The positive of AWD is offset by the lower gas mileage. (We don't go off road and live in the desert, AWD, is not terribly useful here)
Look at the Forester. It is a nice alternative, a little more pricey than the competition (like the Passat) but offers value that commands the price.
BTW, we got both cars for about invoice, maybe $200 to $300 over. Plus good financing rates. It is a buyers market.
Forester is great on the beach.
-juice
Canada got the H6/cloth first, that's the anniversary model you're talking about. Now you can get a similar model in the USA, it's $24k and change for them here.
-juice
I see Foresters from $18.7k up to about $25k. Legacy wagons start at around $19k and go all the way up to $30 grand.
Those are all street prices.
I kinda like the new Forester interior. They use a black, dimpled plastic that is soft to the touch. Reminds me of what Acura uses for the RSX Type S.
-juice
Budget was 25k - 33k
My priorities:
1. Safety
2. Reliability
3. Room for 4 + baby stuff
4. Freeway handling/performance
5. Luxury (sound system, features, quality of interior materials)
Other cars I considered in order of preference:
1. Passat v6 - excellent car, concerned about reliability, slightly smaller than Saab, handling less precise
2. Highlander v6 - very reliable, roomy and comfortable but too much body roll, soft handling, gas mileage good for SUV but not up to wagon standards
3. Volvo 2.4T - also an excellent car, but problems with volvo reliability in my immediate family (+ independent reports) scared me off
Really liked the Forester, but the missus dissed the exterior styling + I'm 6'5" and need someone to be able to sit behind me.
Ended up choosing Saab 9-5 Linear wagon for about 32.3k + TTL including premium and touring package (max options)
Really happy with it so far. Main positives are the excellent performance in safety testing even without side curtain airbags (which you may not want with small kiddos in the back seat.) Very stable and smooth at high highway speeds. Low-end torque is surprisingly good for a 4-cyl but you should do a prolonged test drive to make sure it's sufficient (for comparison, I could never get used to the turbo lag in the Passat 4-cyl 1.8t engine though it's admittedly in a different price class). I've enjoyed the extras such as xenon's, rain-sensing wipers, and rear object sensor much more than I thought I would.
Good luck shooping a wagon/cross-over!
We have been travelling & find steep hills & even some gentle ones really make you feel sometime like you want to get out & push. I usually just put it into D3 when it really gets sluggish.
I think price does play a big role. If you are shopping for a $35,000 to $40,000 wagon, you get into BMW and Mercedes territory. Edmunds' TMV for the V70 AWD version is about $3,600 more than a Passat 4Motion. That may not sound like much, but I think it is beyond a magic barrier. Some people are shopping for a $25K to $30K wagon, and the Passat compares well with competition in that price range. The 4Motion wagon is just barely above $30K (all street prices), still acceptable to many. And you can buy a Legacy wagon with AWD for much less than any of the above.
- D
So in future, those of you cross shopping Subies and Saabs may find the decision more difficult, or easier depending on your opinion.
In fact, they announced a Saab 9-2 at the NY show, interestingly it'll use Impreza wagon mechanicals, both the 2.5l and the WRX powerplant.
Volvos get plenty of consideration from wagon shoppers. The V70 costs a bit more than the Subie or Passat, but resale is good, and they offer something for everyone (R models, AWD, sedan and wagon, etc.).
The 4Motion doesn't sell in big volumes, I bet the 1.8T is Passat's volume leader, followed by the FWD V6.
-juice
I'm still VERY leery of VW's, though, since I have a few friends with new VW's (post 1999) and they are all having tons of electrical problems with them.
Brian
In part, that's because most wagons come with automatic. In fact, I could not find a single 1.8T wagon with a 5 speed manual. Sedans, yeah, but not wagons.
Any how, when I was shopping around, that put the 1.8T wagons in the mid 20s without 4Motion.
I want max space, max speed, min price, so build more wagons VW!
-juice
"perfect wagon" and have test driven several models. Many have been mentioned here so I would like to share my experience as I often find these mini reviews to be the most helpful when car shopping. The wagons I Looked at were the Audi A4 1.8T Avant,Subaru Outback VDC,Volvo XC70 and BMW 325ix
Audi A4 - Pros: Nice interior,very solid feel to car,back seat was more spacious than I had initially thought it would be, lots of fun to drive with 5 speed,exterior design is a masterpiece
Cons: Sluggish 1.8 engine with Auto transmission,center stack on dash intrudes on your right leg when you are in driving position
Not much else
Bottom line: I loved this car and was convinced this would be the car I chose.
Outback - Pros:Smooth 6 cyl engine,very quiet ride,lots of interior room,low price
Cons: cheap looking interior,fake wood,lots of plastic,two tone plastic molding on the exterior,gold wheels,ride was very soft,transmission was horrible
Bottom line: I tried to like this car but just could not get past the awful styling. I really like Subaru as a company and I believe they will hit their mark in the next couple of years.
Volvo XC70 - pros: Excellent interior,very comfortable in every respect,lots of interior room,handsome exterior and has great presence due to slightly raised suspension,newly revised engine and AWD system,All around good performer
Cons: Volvo reliability was weighing on my mind but I had decided that all European cars are about equal in this respect,Not much else I didn't like about this car.
Bottom Line: This was my wifes favorite car. I could easily live with this and it would suit my needs perfectly although a little lack lustre driving experience. Almost a done deal
BMW 325xi - Pros : perfect blend of speed,handling and balance,Solid feel without feeling heavy,In line 6 cyl engine was smooth and responsive,handsome and non-fussy interior
- Cons : Small cargo hold.
Bottom Line: After my wife test drove this car,she forgot about the Volvo really quick and I factory ordered a car the next day.
Hope this helps anyone trying to decide on what to get.(I didn't include the Passat but I think it's also a great looking and very functional vehicle)I think the new model will be out in 2004
so that's something to consider.
Just one question: why are you comparing the 325xi to the 1.8l turbo A4 wagon, and not to the 3.0l A4 wagon? The latter has about 20% more power and torque than the BMW, for about the same street price (at least in the US). The 3.0l A4 AWD wagon looks like a clear winner to me: better interior, better AWD, much better performance.
- D.
Brian
cabbatan1: How did you find the XC's acceleration and steering feel compared to, say, the BMW and the Outback?
The Volvo was definitley more refined than the Outback in it's handling capability although the Subaru's 6 cylinder was quite smooth and very quiet. Much more so than both the Volvo and the BMW.(Too quiet for my liking actually)
If you need the space,I would definitley go for the Volvo. It's an excellent blend of utility,sport,comfort and prestige. As I mentioned above,I would have been quite happy with this car but the sporty side of my brain won out over the practical side. I'm sure I'll be cursing when we try and pack our stuff this summer. Fortunately,we don't head up north very often and the car will be mainly used in the city.
By the way,lots of Canadians of this thread. Do we like wagons more the our Southern Neighbors?
Good luck!
Carmine: bingo, you asked for it, you got it. The 2004 Outback ditches the silver/gold wheels for a simpler 5 spoke all-silver design. They're the ones from the current Baja. Just saw it at the NY auto show.
Also, the gold badges are now chrome. Subtle change, but if you thought the old one looked cheesy, it is a decent improvement. Also, for 2003 you could get a monotone Champagne color, so if they continue that in 2004, you could get a very stealthy Outback. Maybe next time.
VDCs are about $29k now and the best equipped (6 cyl, 6CD, heated leather, 2 moonroofs, stability and traction control, AWD, all standard).
But my favorite wagon in the show was the Forester XT! Gotta love it. Huge moonroof, heated leather, 235 lb-ft of torque, AWD, 16" alloys, basically nothing I could reasonably fault. Loved it!
-juice
DaveM
The H6 is a good engine held back by a reluctant 4 speed auto. It's smooth shifting, but does not put the power down like I wish it did.
The good news is the 5 speed auto should arrive, along with a boosted H6, with maybe 240hp or so.
The 2004 Legacy is out, the 2005 can be previewed when the new generation arrives in Japan this summer IIRC.
-juice
BTW - the purpose of this wagon is for our first baby coming anytime now and the fact that my wife says that the sports car must go!
Thanks
The Passat is nice. Also check out the Legacy/Outback, perhaps the latter has a better perceived value in your eyes due to the SUV styling cues? A VDC (with stability control) runs about $29k at fitzmall.com. It's completely loaded, that's the only way you can get S/C though.
I also like the Audi A4 Avant, if the size fits.
-juice
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
Do you have it confirmed that the 9-5 will get AWD? I had seen it for the new 9-2, but not the 9-5 (which would seem to make more sense, at least for the wagon). That's really the biggest drawback of the Saab for me right now.
-juice
I drive only about 8K miles per year, so I'd like to keep this wagon for a while. Should I maybe wait and save up more money and try for a Subaru or VW wagon? Or consider a used Volvo? Any current (later model) Focus wagon owners' opinions are welcomed.
Even if you only drive 8K miles a year, I think it is quite important you sit down and look at what your true needs are, what features you simply like and what important preferences you have. True, the selection of low-cost wagons is slim. Yet, do you really need a wagon, or is a hatchback style just something you don't like as much? Depending on where you live, AWD may be an advantage; perhaps you won't need to change to winter tires.
Generally speaking, Subarus and VW are some of the safest cars you can buy (in terms of test results and standard airbags available) - if that is important to you.
While it may not be the safest, the most luxurious, the most powerful, or the most reliable, the Focus is a quite roomy car with good handling and decent mileage for its price. Given how little you drive, that plus an extended warranty should cover most of your concerns.
Unless you really hate to have the car serviced, even under warranty. In that case you would have to go all the way up to a Honda or Toyota SUV before you hit something "wagonish" with truly stellar quality (I hate the word reliability, because a car can be reliable but still require some work or replacements here and there). And from what I see, the CR-V is not part of this equation. Perhaps the Forester would be in that category.
- D.
Krzys
Size-wise, it felt bigger inside than my 01 Outback, and was able to hold 4 adults and all our luggage with room to spare. Handling, fit and finish, and performance were impressive...and that diesel engine sold me. We averaged over 40mpg on the autoroutes traveling for hundreds of miles at a time at 110-115mph, and the torque was addictive.
Although it's not here yet, look for this engine to appear in US Focuses by the end of 2003. As far as the Focus' notoriously poor reliability, just get an extended warranty. For the money, this wagon is hard to beat...unless you need AWD.
Brian
Personally? I dunno, I don't think I'd pull the trigger. I had a Mustang in the 80s, a '91 Escort, and my dad has a Taurus. None were particularly reliable. My dad has spent a fortune keeping his Taurus running, I think $6 grand so far (it's a '92 with low miles).
But, who knows, maybe you'll get lucky. Or get an extended warranty since the price is so low you could afford it.
The other thing is 130hp might labor to pull the weight if you really fill it up. Too bad they don't make an SVT wagon. I do like the 5 door, but it's not nearly as roomy.
-juice
Krzys