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Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier
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Comments
Its a hard choice between the SI and 3.
17" wheels vs. 16"
More torque (w/no mpg penalty) vs. less
50k b to b warranty vs. 36k
Curtain air bag vs. none
Selling like hotcakes vs. giving them away
Sounds like an easy decision to me.
Again there's no comparison between the two cars. Might as well compare them to a minitruck.
According to edmunds; slower 0-60 time vs. faster.
An excellent manual transmission vs a good one.
Excellent rep for reliability vs. an ok rep.
(might be why the latter needs a longer warrenty)
I could of course go on. Ultimately I am not trying to dis the Mazda in favor of the Civic, they are both very good cars. For some, indeed for perhaps the majority the Mazda will be a better choice (anyone who needs an automatic, or wants certain luxury features like leather seats, etc). On the flip side though there is alot to recommend the Civic; its a solid little run about with good performance, good utility and its a bit different than most things you will see on the road. Its relatively weak sales also means that it will be easier to negotiate a price than on a car that is selling like hot cakes.
So mauto, while the decision might be easier for you, for some it might be a bit more difficult.
Indeed unless your requirements include 4 doors or an automatic transmission (and some people's of course do) then I think it would be natural to cross shop these vehicles; heck last year when I thought I needed to replace my VW I certainly did.
--
Bill
Bottom line is, the Mazda 3 does not share a bodystyle with the Si.
I can certainly understand that everyone has individual preferences that would rule one or both of the cars out for them, but I think the cars are close enough in their functionality and their prospective audiences that it makes sense to compare them here.
Around a track, the I4 would be able to take some of the corners in a lower gear and would be my favorite.
No need to ponder, no need for a V6. A Civic Si with a K24 transplant is faster. Whether the transplant is from Accord (160 hp, 160 lbs.ft.) or TSX (200 hp, 170 lbs.ft??). There is an Si out there with a "Frankenstein" engine, it has a K24 block, and K20A2 head (from RSX-S). It was featured in SCC a couple of summers ago. It was faster than CTR on the track. The fatter torque curve made it a really nice car to drive in traffic or on the track.
The stock Michelins are very good in the snow. I had no problem driving in the 4 blizzards we got last year. I had a 60 mile (one way) commute. I did have to slow down to 50-60 mph from my usual 75-80 mph. One time, there was this Ford Explorer who thought that he was better suited for the conditions. He high beamed me to get out of his way, and I did move to the center lane. a couple of seconds later I saw his tail lights switch into head lights and then tail lights again, and then he hit the center guard rail. I swirved around him with no problem on the stock Michelins.
Last summer, I replaced them with Bridgestone Potenza 950, which were advertized as all season. They are much better in the dry, and wet than Michelins. And, as advertized, they are excellent in the snow as well. I was thinking of getting winter tires from Tirerack, since I moved to Buffalo and it snows here on a daily basis. But, I think I can drive on the Potenza's through winter. I am very impressed, so far.
Stock size.
thanks again for the info
Wonder how much it costs to buy a set of the stock 16" rims for the '04/05 SI.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Don't forget that 2004-2005 Si has 5 lugs while 2002-2003 had 4. So, stock 2004-05 rims will not fit 2002-03 Si. However, stock RSX rims should fit the 2004-05 Si.
I wish I could wash her, it is -18°F outside, windchill is -30°F. It is going to warm up today, to -1°F, woohoo.
I had to put vaseline on the door seals after it rained on sat, and the forecast said it was going to be in the negatives. I think, if I do go to a carwash, even if they are open, I would have to wait until spring to open my doors again.
btw, does the steering get stiffer towards the limit? Doesn't seem to on other Civics.
market, as the name suggests, but it can be obtained by some enthusiasts in the U.S. through after-market specialists.
If you are willing to talk about what you bought, how you found out about this equipment, or what you'd like to get from Japan but can't, etc., please send an e-mail with your daytime contact info to jfallon@edmunds.com by Wednesday, December 22.
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Thanks in advance.
As for my experience with them, I drove an '01 'teg with 25K and the new RSX back to back, and the RSX is way better in many ways - body control over undulating pavement, turn-in responsiveness - with the only downside being that overall the controls make you feel a little more remote from the road. Some reviewers call this a "higher level of sophistication", or that "the RSX has grown up from the old Integra", but I kind of like it the old raw way. Although I wound up buying the RSX because it was so much better in so many ways.
One benefit you can't argue with even if the struts ARE a cheaper design, is that they allow more passenger room in the cabin - noticeable in the Civic and even more so in the RSX over the old models.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
--
Bill
Thanks
Curiously, the real-world compaints about the current-gen Civic has been with the rear suspension which I think kept its basic setup.
“. . .overall the controls make you feel a little more remote from the road.”
The electric power steering unit contributes to that remote feeling on our Si. I don’t care for it at all, especially “on-center” where the feeling is as dead and numb as anything I’ve ever experienced. There may be sound engineering advantages to electric power steering, but I’d rather suffer the slight decrease in horsepower from the pulley-driven, conventional power steering pump, and enjoy better feel through the steering. I don’t doubt, however, that in time Honda, and everyone else, will perfect the electric steering units and I’ll be happy with them. I sure hope so, anyway.
If I had my “druthers,” I’d prefer a lighter car with no power steering at all, just direct rack and pinion, like on our ’91 Civic Si. That was the last non-power car we had, and I miss it for that alone. That ’91 had wonderful steering, as direct and precise as you could want, with superb road feel further enhanced by the small Momo steering wheel I installed. (Ah, the good old days. :-)
-Kauai (who should, perhaps, be driving the new Lotus Elise even if he is an old fart. ;-)
"Has anyone 'upgraded' to a 205/60-15 tire and if so, what are the pros/cons."
I recently installed 205/60-15s on our ’02 Si, mounted on 15x7 Borbet rims. I prefer the appearance of the larger tire; despite the small increase, the tire visually fills the wheel well much more. It has a slightly wider stance as well with the 7” wide rims. I’m pleased with that. That’s all a matter of personal preference, of course.
The slightly taller sidewall provides a noticeable, but not substantial, improvement in ride quality.
The larger contact patch, coupled with the stickier rubber of the Dunlop Winter Sport M3 tires, seems to have increased the rolling resistance enough to decrease fuel economy around 1-2 mpg. Four season tires may not be as “sticky.” I don’t know.
The larger tire alters the speedometer reading only a little. At an indicated 70 mph, true speed appears to be about 71 mph. Those interstate mile markers seem to be less than precise. An average over a number of miles seems to indicate about a 1 mph difference, which is no problem. . . unless that 1 mph bumped you into the “get a ticket zone.” ;-)
Now, if only we’d get some snow here! I still cannot comment on how these snow tires work in the snow. They are superb in the dry, just what I was hoping for, since the last Blizzaks I had were ‘orrible, just ‘orrible I say, in the dry. The Blizzaks, to their credit, were astonishingly good on packed snow and ice. (MZ-02, and keep a close eye on the mirror, because the guy behind you cannot hope to stop as fast as you unless he’s running MZ-02s, too, so give him room before the poor fellow stuffs his radiator in your trunk!)
In the spring when I order summer tires, I plan on going with the 205/55 size. Now that I have these winter tires, I’m free to get ultra-high performance 3-season tires. I’m thinking of getting the Potenza S-03s. I’m looking forward to that.
I hope this helps you in your decision; feel free to ask any other questions you may have. :-)
If you have a story to share, please send your name, daytime contact info and a line or two about your vehicle to jfallon@edmunds.com by Wednesday, December 29, 2004.
Thanks again
"Looking at BFGoodrich Traction T/A H -good ratings on the Tire Rack web site."
That's an attractive choice. These tires have garnered excellent reviews, and they are bargain-priced. Had I not decided to get another set of snow tires, I was seriously thinking of these BFG T/As, too.
I'd be interested in your feedback on these tires if you should buy them.
I believe the 205/60-15 should fit your OEM 6" rims just fine. I put 205/55-15s on our '99 Si and they worked fine, as well as looking better than the smaller OEM tires. That car also had 15x6" rims just like our newer Si. The narrower 6" rim (as opposed to the 7" I'm running with the winter tires) might even offer a slight improvement in ride quality. As I understand it, the narrower rim will promote just a bit more sidewall flex, although I cannot say I've ever been able to discern any difference. The most discernible differences are attributable to the different tire and size.
You wrote:
"Thanks again."
You're welcome. :-)
“I was hoping that some Si owners may want to give me their thoughts as far as the Si being a good choice ”
For who, you? No can do, Ezy.
Ezy, my friend, you seem uneasy. ;-)
You’ve been wrestling with this dilemma for some time now, haven’t you? “Did I buy the right car or, heaven forbid, . . . not?”
Well. . . The best any of us might do is help you understand why each of us -- individuals all -- like our Si’s. I’m not sure I see how that would have much bearing on whether _you_ would like it, though, particularly given that you’ve now owned and driven yours for eight months, yet continue to struggle with whether you want to live with it.
You wrote:
“One day I think to myself ‘I should have got something that rides softer, like a 2dr Accord ’”
I understand. Sometimes the best way to appreciate something is to return to what you’d formerly known, and see what _it_ lacks in comparison. To wit, on one of those days when you’re thinking, “Nice machine!” drive your Si over to your Honda dealer and take an Accord 2dr out for a test drive along the same roads. Do it right then, if possible.
My thought is that this method will provide you the best answers to your questions, much better than anything anyone might say to you.
Let the cars talk to you. Listen to the cars, Ezy, not to us. What do we know. . . about _you_ and your preferences?
If your response to the Accord test drive is something like, “Ah, now this is more like it!”
Then I think, maybe, you will have answered your question.
Or, if your response to the Accord is, “Eww, this thing’s a mushmobile. I’m too isolated from the driving experience. I like the way I feel ‘connected’ to the machinery in my Si. And, yeah, it _is_ worth the dues of enduring the harsh ride on the rough bits.”
Then I think, maybe, you will have answered your question.
Good handling typically comes at the expense of ride quality. TANSTAAFL, right? We’ve talked about this before, haven’t we?
You wrote:
“Since I am not that knowledgeable on the finer points of car characteristics ”
“Finer points” be damned. I’ll bet that you’ve learned enough about your personal preferences by now to appreciate the differences between the Accord 2dr and the Si . . . and to be able to choose between them -- much better than eight months ago. It’s YOUR car, not ours, Ezy. ;-)
There’s no mystique to sports cars. You like ‘em, or you don’t. Rest easy with your decision. :-)
The circumstances of your regular driving environment are not to be ignored, either. If all my driving was on decaying, urban streets, I’d sell my P5 for sure, and maybe my Si, too. On the other hand, were I to live in a “driver’s paradise” of smooth and challenging, twisty, country roads (alas, we don’t, they’re 100 miles away), I’d have no problem spending more than $20k for an even more sporting car; it would be worth it then. There are very limited “go-fast” bits around here, and spending $30k+ on a quicker car is just silly around here . . . to ME. Many people think otherwise, and we enjoy watching their fine cars on the roads. YMMV. ;-)
I want a Carrera GT2 or an F430 to GO FAST(!) in, to push the limits, . . . not to look good in. I’m largely indifferent to what others think of me; my value system differs from the herd. [. . .the old fart says, ever so smugly. <laughing>] Age has its advantages. ;-)
You wrote:
“..and maybe point out areas of excellence that I will learn to appreciate.”
Nah, see above. If you’d never driven a sporting car, maybe, but not now, not after you’ve owned an Si for eight months.
The car will tell you. You value what it tells you, or you don’t. Next to that, anything we might say is inconsequential. There’s no talking you into liking your Si. You like it, or you don’t. And it’s okay, either way.
“Man, if you have to have jazz explained to you. . . you’ll never know.” - Louis Armstrong
However, I do appreciate your financial dilemma, should you decide you want to unload your new Si. It won’t kill you to trade it in, even after only eight months. Shall I talk to your wife for you? Be humble and contrite. She’ll love you the more for it. <laughing> Be prepared, however, to hear about your “mistake” for decades to come. That might prove to be an even “rougher” ride! You choose. ;-)
We cannot choose for you.
What we like, and are prepared to tolerate, has nothing whatsoever to do with _you_.
Maybe you strongly prefer strawberry ice cream. I’m fond of vanilla, myself. One’s not objectively better than the other -- it’s a matter of personal preference -- contrary to the self-absorbed, distorted, and combative “reasoning” of a few persistent “contributors” in this Honda Si/Sir group. There are many different cars to choose from and any one of them may be the best choice for a given driver . . . as you’re learning, possibly to your dismay.
You may have made a mistake, purchasing an Si. It happens. No tragedy. Now, if only you can convince your wife it’s that simple. ;-)
For heaven’s sake, whatever you do, do not buy that Accord 2dr on the spot! ;-)
You might be pleased by what Mazda has to offer in this price range, and Toyota, and. . .
How do you like my reasoning so far? :-)
-Kauai (striving, as always, to make a constructively useful contribution.)
The Accord coupe V6, 6 spd may have better o-60 times, but it is huge and not as nimble as the Si.
If you have a story to share, please send your name, daytime contact info and a line or two about your vehicle to jfallon@edmunds.com by Wednesday, January 5, 2005.
Thanks!
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Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
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