It's not that outlandish. it seems like all of the other cars in WRC are going to hatchbacks, right? And, the weight balance is better in the wagon. They've offered STi wagons in other markets before, and they sold well.
For those of you who think it's an "all out Sports car"...it's a sedan. It weighs nearly 3300 lbs, and it seats 5. adding another 80 to make it a wagon doesn't magically make it any less of a sports car. If this car was meant to be a sports car, instead of the basis for a rally car, it would be a small, light, 2 door, with rear wheel drive.
Appreciate it for what it is, and enjoy the world class performance. why pigeonhole? the WRX wagon is a huge contributor to it's success.
(beat me to it) and...the Cayenne apparently laps Nur. faster than the Boxster S, which is much closer to a pure sports car. the S does it more gracefully, and would me much easier on tires in a multi-lap race, but it's still impressive. (not that I would consider buying one) There are many GT and "other" cars that are faster than some pure sports cars.
Bottom line is that subaru has not setup the wagon body style to be a racer, they don't have the flared fenders etc. The STi is a limited production car, similar to the 22b, Blaze Yellow WRX '02, etc. It's intended for race purposes and "gee-whiz look at what subaru can do" not as a bread and butter car.
there's a yellow wagon in '03, correcting their mistake in '02.
I'm not sure the fender flares would make any appreciable difference in a race.
Again, there have been STi wagons before, it's not like this is new territory. And, there's no announced production limit, other than trying not to flood the market. The 22b absolutely was a limited run, the STi is not.
And, I disagree that it's primarily intended as a racer. There aren't enough buyers in the US that would buy the STi for a race car. Also, the Elise will totally dominate the track market, once it's available, 3300 lbs and 300hp are not what most track guys are looking for.
I believe they sell more WRX sedans than wagons, but it's the only line of theirs where that happens.
Giant spoiler wing? I thought that was an extension of the roof rack, to help carry sheets of plywood. You mean it isn't? ;-)
Cayenne requires about 7 times the horsepower to do those laps probably 1/100th of a second quicker. The Boxster S would run circles around it on a tighter course. Nurburgring is wide open.
-juice
PS Besides, the real reason the Cayenne would win that race is because the Boxster driver pulled over to regurgitate after looking at what Porsche has done with their racing funds
I think they should offer a STi wagon, sans rear seats and with steel (alloy?) in place of the rear door and rear quarter windows, just like the old bread vans from the 1950s! Talk about stealth!
Maybe they could even sneak one into the NASCAR truck races. He, he...
Ah, I don't believe that for a second. I expect that most of the people who are buying this car are the same ones buying the EVO. I'm afraid most of them will end up in the driveways of guys in their teens or twenties who have wealthy parents. I really doubt people are buying these to take them out on a racetrack. This is a production car after all.
Just like the limited Blaze Yellow sedans in '02. These are going to be sold as pseudo exotic cars to people in a different market than those who buy the regular WRX, hence the nearly $10K price tag difference.
The flares allow 225 width tires v. 215 limit on the wagons w/o flares.
All I'm saying is that I think SOA brought it over in sedan only form because they are trying to create a different look/feel than the traditional subaru buyers. A lot of us on here at Edmunds like wagons, but we aren't typical buyers out there.
I agree that the STi is not just a race car. Why would a race car need a back seat? Audi and Volvo have regularly offered high performance wagons. BTW, has anybody noticed that Subaru's advertisement for the standard (non-STi) WRX (using C&D's measurements) boasts a faster 0-60 time than Porche's ad for their way more expensive, top of the line turbo V8 Cayanenne. The neat thing about the WRX/STi is that it offers so much performance on such a practical platform. There are plenty of other manufacturers offering similar performance (perhaps not with all wheel drive), but, few others do it with such practicality. The high performance, do anything, in any weather, on any road, at a reasonable price, wagon, is a Subaru exclusive. Why compromise this remarkable combination. At the auto shows, I overheard many others ask about an STi wagon, and my dealer says that I'm not alone, he's had others request the same thing. Geesh, not even a premium package? I think Subaru could sell quite a bit of them. Making it a limited item is only going to limit sales and ergo, profits. In the past people have objected to my critism of the narrower wheel base of the wagon. Now that narrower wheel base is being offered as an excuse for not offering an STi wagon. Surely, Subaru has the technical prowess to rectify that. I stand by my original opinion that Subaru is just plain demonstrating short sightedness. Subaru, please reconsider.
So far, they haven't announced a production limit. Demand will probably be more than supply early, but this isn't an artificial limit, like they had on the S202 and 22B. There are plenty of Evo's sitting on lots, even though they are currently selling for under MSRP at a lot of locations, so Subaru won't have to artificially limit their production number for long...there just aren't that many buyers out there for a 30k+ car with a <20k interior. (present company excluded)
The flares and 215/225 issue is pretty trivial, in my opinon, since they could build the STi wagon with the flares pretty easily, as evidenced by some of the pictures on nasioc.com. The smaller tires and narrower track may impact ultimate performance a tiny little bit, but those who are willing to accept the weight penalty would certainly accept 10mm less tire in the exchange.
there's no need to drag volvo and audi under this bus, Subaru themselves thought there was enough demand for the WRX wagon to bring it here. They were building the STi wagon for Europe and Japan in the Bug-Eye trim. It will probably make a comeback 2 years or so into STi production, just like the previous gen M3 sedan did, to keep sales strong.
and, on the Cayenne, sure it needs 2x the horsepower, but it's significantly heavier. Take a lotus elise out on a tight track, and people will be calling the Boxster S the dog, even with well less than 200 hp. Cars with more than 1 seat make tradeoffs, the STi included. It's not much more of a tradeoff to make the STi in a wagon version, and there are a large number of STi buyers who would take the wagon just to be rid of the giant wing, myself included.
The STi is a great performing Sedan, with Summer Tires to max out the performance tests. Just because it's delivered with Summer tires, doesn't mean it's not all weather capable, with all seasons. It's a reasonable assumption that those in climates that get snow will put appropriate tires on, in my opinion.
the regular STi is not a racecar, it's just an extremely high performance limited edition passenger car. there is a stripped down for racing Type C version though.
I presume there is no STi wagon due to sales. they offered STi wagons in the past, they just went away when the new bodystyle finally arrived.
if the sedan sells well enough here and there is demand heard from wagon owners-- REAL DEMAND, of people that actually have the means and desire to buy the car-- then I perhaps they may offer one again. I say real demand because enthusiasts of the brand may have a voice and desire to see their favored marque bring the heat, but real demand comes from people willing and able to put their money where their mouth is.
Just feeling a bit punchy today and figured I'd play devil's advocate. I loved when I drove Hypov's wagon and was able to ruffle the feathers of a Trans Am on the GSP about a month ago.
There in is the point. I love my WRX wagon because it is the ultimate stealth performance car. Mark me down as one who would consider an STI wagon. After all the % of WRX wagons was raised after the WRX first hit the country in 2001. I know it was supposed to be only 20% to start with. Does anyone know what % it is now?
Is anyone else a bit disappointed in the lack of the premium option on the wrx wagon in 04? I have an 02 sedan and am looking to upgrade to the new 04 due to the need for more cargo space. Living in the mountain of CO most of the year, I'd love to see the heated seats, wipers, mirrors.
I picked up an 04 WRX Brochure at the dealer today.
Red WRX 04 wagon is featured on 2 pages - treating you to a view of the front and rear. They also show it with 5 spoke 17s (which have been available a while).
It is going to be an attractive little wagon!
A far cry from my first Subaru -- a 1979 red wagon!
I was another potential '04 wagon buyer until I found that the sunroof & AWP were not going to be available on the wagon. So instead, I went looking for a good deal on an '03 wagon and saved me some money!!
TWRX - not sure of exact % of WRX wagons, but my dealer said they have been selling 4 or 5 WRX sedans for every 1 WRX wagon.
Is it true that there is no pre-cat in the 04's as well? Does the brochure include the weight? I thought weight has gone up due to increased sound insulation.
Another nice new feature is that all models come standard with ABS with Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD). Not really a big deal unless you're in an emergency situation, but it could save your car.
There is an up-pipe cat in the 04 WRX, but not in the 04 STi (it's shown in the owner's manual).
a Subaru Master Technician posted on nasioc.com that all 2004 WRXs including the STi do indeed still have a pre-cat. that's what it showed in the service manuals at least... I suppose you could hold out some hope until people have seen production cars.
I personally think this rumor got started by someone who did peek under the hood of one of the 2004 test mules and noted there was no pre-cat. Unfortunately the fault in logic occured when they presumed that the test mules were representative of US-spec cars... they typically are not, they're European or Japanese cars brought right over.
no need to be rude, this particular person is one of the most knowledgable on the forum in question so I typically would not question his reading ability or comprehension.
if there's a conflict between what the service manual and owners' manual shows, which would you think would be correct?
I'm still waiting to see a production car before I'm convinced either way.
If I had to guess, and mind you it would only be a guess, it would be that the STi has a cat in the uppipe. My logic is, it's an EPA compliance issue not a performance issue, and the compliance rules are the same for both. Likely, Subaru would prefer to leave the cat out of both uppipes, but can't get away with it.
They might be able to get away with the catless uppipe in the STi due to the VVTi. Don't forget these are totally different engines, not the same engine bored out.
Hi, I've been avidly reading the msg boards and have been out to test drive a few cars. I really like the Forester as it is safe, fuel efficient, fun, not too expensive, and carries my outdoors gear (fishing, biking, etc) well. I just discovered that there is a WRX wagon and it sounds from the specs like it has as much cargo area as the forester. It's also safe, fuel efficient, not too expensive, and LOTS more fun to drive. Insurance isn't much more either. I realize they are quite different cars but it is typical for me to end up trying to make a decision between polar opposites. What I'm hoping to hear is from people who may also have been chosing between these two, or maybe people who have experience with both. What are some of the significant differences in practicality, expense of maintenance, luxury level, etc. Thanks so much for any input. Dan
The ideal car for you will arrive in June: the Forester XT.
It's a 2.5l turbo, and should have better low-end. It keeps the Forester's bigger shape, higher payload and towing, beefier roof rack, etc.
I have a Forester and to me the WRX is too small. The squared off hatch allowed me to fit an oversized clothes washer with the box, and close the hatch! No way in a WRX.
But wait to sample it back-to-back with a WRX, then choose the one you prefer.
I have a Bean for highway ride and hauling stuff, and I still find the WRX wagon appealing.
My friend and I went to the dealer last night to look at the Forester as a commuter car with utility. Maybe I am projecting my own desire for a WRX, but I think the WRX wagon would be more fun for him. He is single with a big dog (lab). If he had kids, the Turbo Forester might be better. It might not weigh much more but it is bigger -- i.e. easier to be SEEN.
I just have not decided if the WRX wagon is more appealing than the Sedan (for me!).
Pro Wagon: - cheaper - less on the radar of cops for speeding tix - Utility is utility - Bigger back seat
Pro Forester: - Larger, cuts a more SUV shape (if that is a plus for you)
Pro Sedan WRX: - Best looking (subjective) Like a mini Audi A4 made in Japan - Marginally better handling - Can get premium package (if that is of interest)
Is it possible the reason Subaru declined to offer a premium package on the wagon is because of the upcoming WRX-based Saab? I predict the Saabaru will be an upscale version of the WRX wagon. This would give Saab a performance-minded "hatchback" to fill the void created when they stopped making the 9-3 hatchback.
I don't know about anyone else, but this would be the car I'm waiting for. The performance and utility of the WRX wagon in an entry-level luxury package.
I don't think the WRX based Saab will "replace" the 9-3 hatch, it's a smaller car than the 9-3. Also, I believe that Saab is already working on a hatchback/wagon variant of the new 9-3. IMO, the WRX derived Saab will be something like a 9-1.
Of course, I could be completely wrong on this one (just like I thought the 04 wagon might get a sunroof).
For whatever it's worth, Volvo used to actually race their wagon and I don't think anyone discounts the Audi RS4 Avant as just a luxury car. I think Subaru is making another mistake by not offering the STi with an all season tire option. Sure the summer tires will pay dividends when the auto rags do their thing, and sure in some micro climates, and sure for those who will only use their STi for uses other than transportation, it will be appropriate, but, for the vast majority all season rubber would be more appropriate. This is especially true in light of all the advertising Subaru has projected re: their prowess in inclement weather.
it simply is the most intelligent thing Subaru of America could have done. (assuming they had some say in it-- the Japanese drive the bus directly quite often.)
WRX STi sales will depend heavily on benchmarking against other performance cars. All of the toughest competitors come with summer-only tires, because it's absolutely necessary to play the numbers game. You can gain several MPH in the slalom and at least several hundredths in the skidpad by just switching from the best "performance" all-season to an average summer tire... the STi simply would not win any heads-up comparison against any serious competitor if it had all-seasons and the competition had summer tires.
anyone who has the money for a WRX STi should easily be able to budget for a set of all-season tires. many would probably even spring for a second set of wheels with real snow tires.
uh... so yeah, bring the STi wagon. (had to attempt to get back in the vicinity of the wagon topic!)
Anyone know if the day lights on a 2003 WRX wagon can be turned off or disabled? I don't recall noticing day lights on other WRX's that I have seen. Thanks.
There are two different places you can unplug the wire to disable the DRLs, one of which is behind the glove box, the other is in the engine bay somewhere. I don't remember all the details, but you can find it on ScoobyMods.com. I prefer having them on, but that's just me.
I'm OK w/ the daytime lights. If there is one "feature" I wish I could disable it would be the mandatory AC whenever you use the windshield defogger. That is an annoyance, especially when it is cold out and you are trying to warm up a cold car as soon as possible.
Comments
For those of you who think it's an "all out Sports car"...it's a sedan. It weighs nearly 3300 lbs, and it seats 5. adding another 80 to make it a wagon doesn't magically make it any less of a sports car. If this car was meant to be a sports car, instead of the basis for a rally car, it would be a small, light, 2 door, with rear wheel drive.
Appreciate it for what it is, and enjoy the world class performance. why pigeonhole? the WRX wagon is a huge contributor to it's success.
(beat me to it)
and...the Cayenne apparently laps Nur. faster than the Boxster S, which is much closer to a pure sports car. the S does it more gracefully, and would me much easier on tires in a multi-lap race, but it's still impressive. (not that I would consider buying one) There are many GT and "other" cars that are faster than some pure sports cars.
Bottom line is that subaru has not setup the wagon body style to be a racer, they don't have the flared fenders etc. The STi is a limited production car, similar to the 22b, Blaze Yellow WRX '02, etc. It's intended for race purposes and "gee-whiz look at what subaru can do" not as a bread and butter car.
-mike
I'm not sure the fender flares would make any appreciable difference in a race.
Again, there have been STi wagons before, it's not like this is new territory. And, there's no announced production limit, other than trying not to flood the market. The 22b absolutely was a limited run, the STi is not.
And, I disagree that it's primarily intended as a racer. There aren't enough buyers in the US that would buy the STi for a race car. Also, the Elise will totally dominate the track market, once it's available, 3300 lbs and 300hp are not what most track guys are looking for.
I believe they sell more WRX sedans than wagons, but it's the only line of theirs where that happens.
Giant spoiler wing? I thought that was an extension of the roof rack, to help carry sheets of plywood. You mean it isn't? ;-)
Cayenne requires about 7 times the horsepower to do those laps probably 1/100th of a second quicker. The Boxster S would run circles around it on a tighter course. Nurburgring is wide open.
-juice
PS Besides, the real reason the Cayenne would win that race is because the Boxster driver pulled over to regurgitate after looking at what Porsche has done with their racing funds
Maybe they could even sneak one into the NASCAR truck races. He, he...
Bob
Bob
The flares allow 225 width tires v. 215 limit on the wagons w/o flares.
All I'm saying is that I think SOA brought it over in sedan only form because they are trying to create a different look/feel than the traditional subaru buyers. A lot of us on here at Edmunds like wagons, but we aren't typical buyers out there.
-mike
As for Volvo and Audi, they aren't racecars, they are luxury cars.
-mike
The flares and 215/225 issue is pretty trivial, in my opinon, since they could build the STi wagon with the flares pretty easily, as evidenced by some of the pictures on nasioc.com. The smaller tires and narrower track may impact ultimate performance a tiny little bit, but those who are willing to accept the weight penalty would certainly accept 10mm less tire in the exchange.
there's no need to drag volvo and audi under this bus, Subaru themselves thought there was enough demand for the WRX wagon to bring it here. They were building the STi wagon for Europe and Japan in the Bug-Eye trim. It will probably make a comeback 2 years or so into STi production, just like the previous gen M3 sedan did, to keep sales strong.
and, on the Cayenne, sure it needs 2x the horsepower, but it's significantly heavier. Take a lotus elise out on a tight track, and people will be calling the Boxster S the dog, even with well less than 200 hp. Cars with more than 1 seat make tradeoffs, the STi included. It's not much more of a tradeoff to make the STi in a wagon version, and there are a large number of STi buyers who would take the wagon just to be rid of the giant wing, myself included.
The STi is a great performing Sedan, with Summer Tires to max out the performance tests. Just because it's delivered with Summer tires, doesn't mean it's not all weather capable, with all seasons. It's a reasonable assumption that those in climates that get snow will put appropriate tires on, in my opinion.
I presume there is no STi wagon due to sales. they offered STi wagons in the past, they just went away when the new bodystyle finally arrived.
if the sedan sells well enough here and there is demand heard from wagon owners-- REAL DEMAND, of people that actually have the means and desire to buy the car-- then I perhaps they may offer one again. I say real demand because enthusiasts of the brand may have a voice and desire to see their favored marque bring the heat, but real demand comes from people willing and able to put their money where their mouth is.
-Colin
-mike
-mike
TWRX
I have an 02 sedan and am looking to upgrade to the new 04 due to the need for more cargo space. Living in the mountain of CO most of the year, I'd love to see the heated seats, wipers, mirrors.
-Colin
Red WRX 04 wagon is featured on 2 pages - treating you to a view of the front and rear. They also show it with 5 spoke 17s (which have been available a while).
It is going to be an attractive little wagon!
A far cry from my first Subaru -- a 1979 red wagon!
DaveM
TWRX - not sure of exact % of WRX wagons, but my dealer said they have been selling 4 or 5 WRX sedans for every 1 WRX wagon.
Of course there are the lights. the seats. the relocated tach. New color (San Remo Red).
One that the 04 brochures mentioned that I had not heard of on the 03 v. 04:
New struts - "New multiple phase valve in the struts improve ride comfort and increase handling performance"
All minor running changes.
There is an up-pipe cat in the 04 WRX, but not in the 04 STi (it's shown in the owner's manual).
I personally think this rumor got started by someone who did peek under the hood of one of the 2004 test mules and noted there was no pre-cat. Unfortunately the fault in logic occured when they presumed that the test mules were representative of US-spec cars... they typically are not, they're European or Japanese cars brought right over.
-Colin
if there's a conflict between what the service manual and owners' manual shows, which would you think would be correct?
I'm still waiting to see a production car before I'm convinced either way.
-Colin
Hmmm... don't remember if we took any pics of the 'STi' @ Baltimore.
My ex-work colleague always say, '"Seeing is believing". Can't truly draw conclusion until the real animal appears.
-Dave
edit: Scratch the thought 'bout the code. Don't think it means anything.
We had the opportunity to get up on the turntable and drool all over it.
-Dave
-mike
and I would say something about the "totally different" bit but I know how you love to debate semantics... :-D
-Colin
I've been avidly reading the msg boards and have been out to test drive a few cars. I really like the Forester as it is safe, fuel efficient, fun, not too expensive, and carries my outdoors gear (fishing, biking, etc) well.
I just discovered that there is a WRX wagon and it sounds from the specs like it has as much cargo area as the forester. It's also safe, fuel efficient, not too expensive, and LOTS more fun to drive. Insurance isn't much more either.
I realize they are quite different cars but it is typical for me to end up trying to make a decision between polar opposites. What I'm hoping to hear is from people who may also have been chosing between these two, or maybe people who have experience with both. What are some of the significant differences in practicality, expense of maintenance, luxury level, etc. Thanks so much for any input.
Dan
It's a 2.5l turbo, and should have better low-end. It keeps the Forester's bigger shape, higher payload and towing, beefier roof rack, etc.
I have a Forester and to me the WRX is too small. The squared off hatch allowed me to fit an oversized clothes washer with the box, and close the hatch! No way in a WRX.
But wait to sample it back-to-back with a WRX, then choose the one you prefer.
-juice
My friend and I went to the dealer last night to look at the Forester as a commuter car with utility. Maybe I am projecting my own desire for a WRX, but I think the WRX wagon would be more fun for him. He is single with a big dog (lab). If he had kids, the Turbo Forester might be better. It might not weigh much more but it is bigger -- i.e. easier to be SEEN.
I just have not decided if the WRX wagon is more appealing than the Sedan (for me!).
Pro Wagon:
- cheaper
- less on the radar of cops for speeding tix
- Utility is utility
- Bigger back seat
Pro Forester:
- Larger, cuts a more SUV shape (if that is a plus for you)
Pro Sedan WRX:
- Best looking (subjective) Like a mini Audi A4 made in Japan
- Marginally better handling
- Can get premium package (if that is of interest)
I don't know about anyone else, but this would be the car I'm waiting for. The performance and utility of the WRX wagon in an entry-level luxury package.
Of course, I could be completely wrong on this one (just like I thought the 04 wagon might get a sunroof).
Actually, it's not bad marketing. Shouldn't cannibalize WRX sales too bad, and fills Saab's need for a 1-series competitor.
Of course, it's all too little too late if Porsche's rumored $30k 1-series competitor materializes...
if I'm not wrong, then I hardly envision a 3100lb wagon (before leather and other gizmos) competing with that.
-Colin
it simply is the most intelligent thing Subaru of America could have done. (assuming they had some say in it-- the Japanese drive the bus directly quite often.)
WRX STi sales will depend heavily on benchmarking against other performance cars. All of the toughest competitors come with summer-only tires, because it's absolutely necessary to play the numbers game. You can gain several MPH in the slalom and at least several hundredths in the skidpad by just switching from the best "performance" all-season to an average summer tire... the STi simply would not win any heads-up comparison against any serious competitor if it had all-seasons and the competition had summer tires.
anyone who has the money for a WRX STi should easily be able to budget for a set of all-season tires. many would probably even spring for a second set of wheels with real snow tires.
uh... so yeah, bring the STi wagon. (had to attempt to get back in the vicinity of the wagon topic!)
-Colin